YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary Podcast

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Episode 102: MFF Unicorn Treachery, Sugar Baby Attractiveness, Men Hiding Their Orgasms, Doing The Splits

Team YMMV | 1-26-2023 | 1:02:53

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It's hard when the most important event in your life is Reddit's decision to progressively shut down the subreddits where you find porn. I guess it's easier if you have tastes that are pretty standard. Hell, even foot fetishists get a lot of attention -- bizarrely, even on VR porn sites. But if you're someone who just likes reasonable people appearing to enjoy themselves, then you're pretty much SOL. And that's not even mentioning the weirdos who use /r/gonewildaudio and stare at the wall while listening.

Next topic: We debated what's going on when women complain that they're not able to locate sugar daddies. Not surprisingly, one side of the argument boils it all down to youth and attractiveness. The other side is something about strategy, I think.

If a man you're sleeping with excuses himself to the bathroom every time he orgasms, what is this indicating? And, should a woman be upset if, after a successful MFF threesome, she awakes to find her significant other engaged in coitus with the unicorn without even waking her?

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/102/sugar

https://ymmv.me/102/bathroom

https://ymmv.me/102/mff

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is controversial but mostly in good faith on today's show we'll be discussing a runaway commer physical intimacy that doesn't lead to sex yet another disastrous threesome and more and Keith my co-host is Mike. Ah, how is the snow mike.
[00:19] Mike: Ah, it's great. Um I'm often whenever I go skiing I'm reminded of the various Iq tests that are kind of inherent in this kind of experience. Um, so ah, getting on the lift getting off the lift.
[00:30] Keith: Um, like.
[00:37] Mike: Um, sort of people having to go from like 4 lines of people into just 4 people or 6 people who get on the lyftchair together just various things. It's anytime you have a large collection of people or a medium-sized collection of people together like that you get these kind of iq test situations which are interesting. So.
[00:50] Keith: Yeah, yeah I have a similar judgmental experience when I'm in the Tsa line and just watching how a couple bad actors can materially affect the total time for everybody.
[01:07] Mike: Ah I saw by the way a video of ah ah you must have seen that Axl Rose performed at Lisa Marie Pressley's funeral maybe not it was not the world's greatest performance. His his voice is his voice is not what it was thirty years ago yeah
[01:13] Keith: No I'm shocked. Yeah, it's been. It's been toast for a while.
[01:25] Mike: And it was just him with a piano which was a nice gesture but like is and by the way I looked up Lisa Marie Pressley and I was like what is this woman ever done and and and the answers nothing she's nothing anyway so axl rose ah airport video I saw of him and he had to take his shoes off for the tsa and I thought to myself even I don't have to do that because I have Tsa Precheck
[01:44] Keith: Um, yeah.
[01:44] Mike: So like what's going on here. How does this man. He's so cheap that he's like Nah now I'll just go in the regular line. You don't.
[01:48] Keith: I don't have Tsa Precheck but it's or yeah, it's like a moral thing like I don't want to give money to the security industrial complex.
[01:59] Mike: Okay I think you're making a grave error there I think you would find it improved your life and also there's the global connect or whatever. Yeah.
[02:06] Keith: I'm certain it would I'm certain would it's like a petty type petty completely Ineffective Boycott correct right.
[02:13] Mike: You're just well you're just hurting yourself because people like me then Zoom by you and ignore everything. Yeah I mean the main thing is like you don't have like I guess you probably know what happens right? You just go through a metal detector instead of the thing where they look at your cock and you don't have take your shoes off and like you don't take your laptop out of your bag, etc, Etc, etc in the line shorter. Anyway.
[02:20] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah.
[02:30] Mike: So you and Axl Rose ah are are kind of buddies there. Interesting.
[02:33] Keith: He probably can't be like relied upon to show up on time to an appointment that's that's probably why he doesn't have TSA 3 get to right right.
[02:37] Mike: Maybe maybe maybe maybe you can't pass the background check like you were a pretty serious heroin user back in the day axl fair point.
[02:53] Keith: Okay, there we were we began to have a debate about this Reddit post a couple days ago we decided to table it for the show. So um, I'll read it and then we can we can see where this goes. Okay.
[02:59] Mike: Yes.
[03:08] Keith: Ah, this person writes when she makes a post and says I can't find a sugar daddy 99% of the time she is simply unattractive I've seen so many posts over the past year of sugar babies saying they can't find anyone and he only wants Nudes. He wants to have sex but doesn't want to provide a ppm or they aren't getting any messages I see all kinds of responses like. Lots of salt daddies out there keep looking or the bowl can be frustrating, be patient. These are bad responses and give false hope some people suggest a profile review which is better should always see what their profile looks like before making a judgment as to whether or not they deserve to get a sugar daddy sometimes they will say show their colors and say they want platonic.
[03:44] Mike: Um.
[03:47] Keith: Other times they won't he's talking about issues. He's he's sees in profiles other times they won't what's common in most of these scenarios is that they aren't attractive enough to be a sugar baby a lot of women have an inflated sense of self and think they are much more attractive than they actually are which is sort of understandable even a woman who's below average looking. Sign on a dating app and have dozens of matches within a day but like many sugar lifestyle forers have said this doesn't translate to the sugar world when men are playing allowances and paper meets the standards for looks are simply higher in the bowl and sugar babies outnumber sugar daddies.
[04:22] Mike: That's nice to hear. Okay, yeah, so I agree in with the substance of this post. The only thing that I think I disagree there was something I disagreed with basically toward the end but I know now I'm.
[04:22] Keith: Yeah I think it's like 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 they say.
[04:33] Keith: You forgot it? Okay, well.
[04:36] Mike: Having a senior moment so I forgot it but but yeah, maybe you're disagree I think you have some disagreements with the post. So we'll start there.
[04:39] Keith: Yeah I disagree with it sort of generally wholesale and part of it. He reveals in his post himself like he says the complaints are they only want nudes. Okay, well that's not because they're not attractive enough. They want to have sex but don't want to provide a pay forme. That's not because they're not attractive enough. Or they aren't getting any messages that is but the first 2 are clear indicators that they're attractive enough to for someone to at least have sexual interested in them.
[05:06] Mike: Um I don't I don't think that's right I mean if you were um I mean I know from sort of. For example, the having fun hobbying subreddit um and various perusing of sites. There is a direct linear correlation between.
[05:14] Keith: Yep.
[05:20] Mike: The price that an escort can charge and how attractive she is how conventionally attractive or even even if you want some sort of alternative looking woman attractive is going to be some sort of just like physicalness physical attractiveness plus like age and so you know there's yeah, there's a point where a guy would say look ah I'm willing to have sex with this person for. Basically zero I'm willing to accept nude photos or videos of them and and why would he accept those because it feels like he's sort of violating her something like it's kind of attractive to him. It's Exciting. So I disagree with your point I don't think that means that ah. Yeah I Just think she's further down on the sliding scale far enough that the guy's saying like look I'm not going to consider you for this kind of relationship thing.
[06:00] Keith: Um, okay, that's an interesting thought it could be that men when they see low value women are just slinging sort of whatever at them like you know, send me nudes or.
[06:16] Mike: Um, yeah, let's say I mean? Yeah yeah I mean.
[06:17] Keith: Baing you but I'm not giving you any money. Okay, that's an interesting theory all right that that that first part I was mentioning you that? yeah like the the crux of my argument is not predicated on the stuff I've said already being true Anyway, although I can still amend. Yeah I Still think there's a bit of a paradox and what that man wrote. But um I think.
[06:25] Mike: Okay.
[06:37] Keith: That the skill of identifying a man who is likely to actually pay money ah in a sugaring relationship is hard I think that. Even if you are a 10 okay, if you're 10 then some of the stuff doesn't apply but you know even if you're like a 9 I think that you you will have this experience where like like so many of the men on on the sugar apps are. Disingenuous like or they don't have enough money or they're not comfortable with the concept or they're going to try and negotiate. Um or they're like physically violent or they're disgusting looking and you know are hiding that or they're lying about their age I think there's all these things. And unless you have like a really good bullshit filter. Ah yeah, the experience might be that for yeah, just as a reminder for our newer listeners the way that sugar relationships typically go is there's a platonic meet and greet where. The sugar daddy and sugar baby meat and then discuss finances and then that's followed by dates that usually include intimacy and so yeah I think the experience for many women. No matter no matter how they look might be that they just go to these meet and greets.
[08:12] Keith: And have frustrating experiences because most of the men on these sites are not behaving like they they either don't know what the expectation is or they're like intentionally bucking it and it.
[08:28] Mike: Yeah I mean I think yeah this resembles my experience skiing and also by the way I think another really good I well hang on I'm not Donenna but but I think I think another really good ah amateur iq test is the self checkout machine I think you can tell a lot I think you I think.
[08:29] Keith: Yeah I don't think it matters what you look like basically. How so.
[08:42] Keith: Yeah.
[08:45] Mike: By knowing how many minutes or seconds. It takes for a person with say 5 or fewer items to check out at the machine I think you I think you could actually estimate their iq just from that ah just from that I think I think you know obviously there could be a person who's distracted so you might need like some number of ah examples. Yes, um anyway.
[08:48] Keith: Um, yeah.
[08:58] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but highly correlative.
[09:05] Mike: Ah, this is the same kind of thing right? I mean yes for a woman who's not very intelligent. It's going to be very difficult for to sort of we wheat from the chaff and figure out which guys are scamming them and I totally agree that the scammers are there is a lot of scammers. Although I'm not sure it's dominant I'm not sure it's dominant because there's a confirmation bias there that.
[09:13] Keith: Okay.
[09:23] Keith: Um, yeah.
[09:24] Mike: Women If if you talk to women about this. They're going to maybe confirmation Bias the wrong term but there's a bias there where women are going to typically tell you about like the worst experience they had so I kind of I'm actually a little bit skeptical of that I suspect. It's a little more balanced and if a woman. Yeah I mean you know that on sugar Lifestyle four or sorry ah um, seeking arrangement rather the.
[09:30] Keith: Um, yeah.
[09:43] Mike: When you look at accounts on their look at women like most of them their accounts have not been open that long. So I mean women I think fairly quickly find somebody reasonable um or give up.
[09:50] Keith: I Don't know I Yeah I don't so first off seeking it's It's just seeking now. It's not seeking arrangement anymore they have they have rebranded to try to move away from the sugar daddy sugar baby stuff. But.
[09:59] Mike: Oh my God yeah.
[10:09] Keith: Still almost everybody uses it for the sugar baby dynamic. Um, yeah I think that site strongly prioritizes people who have logged in within the last week because yeah, the attrition rate is just enormous and I don't know if it's because they're finding.
[10:22] Mike: Okay.
[10:26] Keith: They're whales I think it's because they're just like this is awful right? Like there's a zillion scammers. There's ah people saying like really gross stuff. They're like being objectified even more than normal like I think the experience of being on there requires like a.
[10:33] Mike: Um I don't know I mean I think that's a little hard for me to.
[10:46] Keith: Fairly sturdy constitution and I think a lot of young women probably find that overwhelming and just piece out.
[10:54] Mike: Okay, I mean I'm so it's somewhat surprising to me that there are that many men willing to pay more than $100 a month or for the platinum or diamond I think it is subscription. It's like 200 and something dollars a month and you and I think and.
[11:03] Keith: Um, yeah.
[11:08] Keith: Um.
[11:09] Mike: Agreed that that would not be a good buy for so a man who's attractive because it suggests something weird but for less attractive men. It might be a good buy because it just suggests the money That's that's a fair amount of money for a guy to put down just to troll basically women.
[11:11] Keith: Um, yeah.
[11:25] Mike: Ah, so I don't know but but ah yeah, it makes honestly honestly it makes more sense to me that what's going on is the women who say oh I've been trolled a lot are not attractive enough like it so sucks. But that yeah it makes more sense to me that that's what's going on is that like the women who are in the say top Twenty fifth but 25 percentile top top 25% rather
[11:27] Keith: Um, yeah.
[11:44] Mike: Of the women attractiveness-wise don't get trolled I suspect they don't I mean I have no way to validate this information but and and I do agree with this poster that like honestly the profile reviews you see on so a sugar lifestyle form and I'm sure you've noticed this do tend to be on the less attractive side surprisingly unattractive in my opinion for.
[12:02] Keith: Yeah I also think I mean these things are tricky. First off I think that posting a profile review indicates until first of being on the sugar lifestyle forum indicates some sort of intelligence right? like.
[12:02] Mike: Someone who wants to be a sugar baby.
[12:19] Mike: Um, that's true.
[12:22] Keith: Being on there and asking questions and wondering about like what their failure modes are is a really good sign and posting a profile is also a good sign it. It shows a little bit of humility. But I.
[12:26] Mike: Yes.
[12:39] Keith: I Also must concede that a lot of these profiles. The the simple answer is like and I'm not sure how well this is going to go for you and it's not because it's not because of the way they've sentence crafted in their in their profile.
[12:45] Mike: Well and also.
[12:51] Mike: Right? Also, you've identified kind of the violence inherent in the system here for women is that yeah the women who are on here are probably differentially more intelligent but that doesn't matter at all what the guys are looking at is their photos to say how attractive are you now if the woman's also intelligent. That's fantastic, but the thing about it is that the intelligent.
[13:03] Keith: Um, right.
[13:11] Mike: Attractive women don't have these problems I suspect Maybe they'll get trolled a little bit but if they're intelligent they can sort of navigate that. Yeah, but by the way the thing I reread the post and the thing that I didn't agree with was the claim that women kind of view themselves like they have unrealistic. What was it. They have an inflated sense of self.
[13:16] Keith: Yeah.
[13:26] Keith: Sense of self worth. Yeah.
[13:30] Mike: I don't think that's true I mean I think it's pretty clear the women generally ah are concerned about their own attractiveness I mean often when I look at a woman. Let's see a woman wearing like yoga pants and stuff so very you know like dressed in a way that I can see her body or maybe a woman in a swimsuit I can often look at her in like 5 seconds figure out what body part. She's probably.
[13:48] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[13:49] Mike: Anxious about and I think that's common and so yeah I don't think it's at the end of an inflated self sense of self-worth I Think it's just that they get on the site thinking like oh this, you know this? this will be great. Not not realizing that what they're up against.
[13:59] Keith: But Mike do you see why? like do you see? why? him saying that and him saying sort of like orthogonal things like he only wants nudes and and that's not orthogonal that actually like cuts against his point. Ah notwithstanding what you said. Like he's revealing like a misogyny here that sort of makes his and like yeah like my opinion on this guy's post is that he's just a bitter old man and is like annoyed with the women on the forum and so he's just like posting this like he's not making like a genuine good faith effort to make a commentary about what's going on. As evidenced by like several very poorly veiled um attacks at women and so like I think there? Yeah I mean there's some interesting conversation to be had about like how the economy varies for you know, different quartiles of attractiveness. But. What this guy is doing is he's just complaining. Um.
[14:57] Mike: Let's I agree I agree with that I mean I Just the only comment I would make on that is I think there's a ah, there's a there's a misogyny inherent in the male female dichotomy. Um I'm reminded of a viral a viral ticktok post I have no idea who posted it that I saw. Ah.
[15:12] Keith: Um.
[15:15] Mike: Where Dustin Hoffman who played Tutsi played the title character in the movie tutsie which you are too young to have seen probably but it's a man. Okay, but it's like early 80 s yeah and the point is it's a man who dresses up as a woman. Ah, and.
[15:19] Keith: And I've seen it but it it it is from before I think early eighty s late seventy s 82
[15:33] Mike: Goes into the working world and how he's treated and in the viral post he he's of course he's like a super liberal guy so he he starts tearing up stuff which is sort of irritating but he makes a point that I think is valid which is that he asks the makeup artist to make him beautiful. He said look like keep going like I want to be as attractive as possible and the person said like look that's.
[15:50] Keith: Yeah, right.
[15:52] Mike: This is as good as it gets like we can't do any better and that up that bothered him and he correctly saw that this is the situation women are in and I have a similar experience that I think I've mentioned on the podcast before when I tried that video game second life many years ago.
[16:04] Keith: Second life.
[16:06] Mike: And I tried to make an attractive woman care. Yeah I tried to make an attractive female character and I couldn't do it and it actually bothered me when people started shaming me for like my breast shape and stuff like that like it. Yeah I actually got upset a little bit I could I could feel that like how deeply it sort of cut me and so yeah I mean.
[16:18] Keith: Ha.
[16:21] Mike: while while I agree that this guy's being sort of oh and part. So so the point that Dustin Hoffman tearfully makes is like that it makes him sad that they're women that he's just disregarded in his life because they weren't attractive enough even though they were very interesting but that's just that's the truth is like humanity is misogynistic in that sense I don't know it just in the sense that if you cut toward men. And I don't know the right word for this but humanity is anti-s stupid people. Whatever that it's not Ms. icuginist or something like yeah if you're a dumb man or like prehistorically maybe it would be a guy without big muscles but in the modern context. It really is your intelligence and if you're dumb like. You're just sort of screwed and if you're unattractive as a woman you're sort of screwed and there's nothing you can do about it and it yeah does suck of it's sort of sad and so like the guys being misogynistic but like sore are we as our we've gotten feedback before that we are like that and it's true I think all men are we're just being on. We're being more honest than most.
[17:03] Keith: Um, right.
[17:07] Keith: Fine, fine.
[17:16] Keith: Yeah, um I don't have anything constructive to add to that. Ah I did want to say 1 more thing about ah sure lifestyle forum or seeking generally I so.
[17:26] Mike: Her.
[17:33] Keith: Ah, talked about this on the show before but some of our newer listeners. Probably don't know I I use seeking and I find it is a better place to find people to date than tinder and bumble and I think part of that is so yeah I've been I've been. I've used it for years basically and found long term partners there I've never given anyone any money. That's not true I give somebody some money for their um sick dog theirs and I assign like a 50% chance to them actually having a sick dog but in any case. Um, one one thing I do on there is I often consult with people on their profiles I find that that there's a couple things 1 is just sort of entertaining and 2 that can sort of ingratiate me to them but something that I often think about is should a woman in her seeking profile. Say that she's new or should she should she signal somehow that she ah is familiar with the dynamic and okay, here's the upside if you're new men might be like oh my gosh like this is. You know they they might feel less icky about them. Um, if they say they're not new then they'll basically weed out people like scammers and people who don't understand the dynamic and so they could save themselves some time they might limit themselves.
[19:08] Keith: By eliminating some men that are looking for. You know some sort of purity test but they'll stop having the experience where they go to a meet and greet and you know they tell the guy like look like we can do a pay per meet. It's going to be $1000 every time we meet or you know you can give me 5 grand a month. Um, and. You know, a lot of men will blush at that if they don't know if they don't if they're not expecting that but people who are familiar with they they call it the bowl. The sugar bowl wouldn't be surprised at that and so yeah, do you think that there's like more upside into saying you're new or that you're not new.
[19:43] Mike: Well, a couple things one is I want to reassure our listeners that the data we've looked at suggests that the typical price per meat is slower than that maybe something like 2 to $3000 monthly or $300 per meet not $1000 this would be an exceptionally attractive woman and my second comment is I think.
[19:56] Keith: Yeah, oh.
[20:02] Mike: That question is almost is I actually think it's a rounding error I think that the things men care about are number 1 age actually let me okay number 1 attractiveness number 2 age number 3 um is going to be something about basically it like number 3 is going to be is she.
[20:11] Keith: Yeah.
[20:21] Mike: Like what? what are her other habits outside of what's she doing when she's not fucking me and it's really let me be clear about this It's not what she's doing for her job. It's what's happening to her vagina right? So so. I want to know is she is she going to be exclusive with me or is she going to have a boyfriend is she basically like have 4 or daddies at once. So I want to understand that and I think that all 3 of those would increase her value. Um I do yeah so I think that my number 1 advice to a woman since you can't really change your age or attractiveness would be that third thing would be to say like look.
[20:35] Keith: Um, yeah.
[20:50] Mike: You should signal if you want to make as much money as you can. You should signal that you're looking for a monogamous sugar daddy relationship with exclusivity where you're not going to be dating anyone else and if they're honestly that's yeah, if they're willing to do that I think they probably I'm going to guess they have their ppm or something and they lower. Maybe maybe not have.
[20:55] Keith: Exclusivity.
[21:06] Keith: It just depends it depends and they don't get to. They don't get to do a Monte Carlo simulation where they try all these different things.
[21:07] Mike: They drop it significantly and they lower the.
[21:14] Mike: Um, look the thing is a guy who has enough money to pay somebody that kind of money per month is not. It's going to be irritated about tolerating tolerating her fucking some you know boy from the hood I.
[21:24] Keith: Yeah, they can lose lie about that if they want well they should be careful because a powerful man scorned can be a dangerous man indeed.
[21:30] Mike: I Would recommend not doing that because then.
[21:35] Mike: Or you could just I mean you could just have your source of money cut off people have a tendency when they have a source of easy money right? So but yeah I know your thing I Yeah I actually don't think that matters. So your yeah your question. Unfortunately, it's I mean yeah, it does it matter at all.
[21:40] Keith: Yeah, you don't want to fly too close to the sun. Yeah.
[21:52] Keith: Um, it's a de Minimis concern.
[21:54] Mike: I think so I mean ah I guess I would say I think men are probably somewhat more attracted to a woman who is seems new. Ah because then he thinks oh she hasn't done this 10 times before um and I think that ah I so I continue to think that the troll scammer thing is just an iq test like I don't. Yeah I mean if I and try yeah women are going to face that although I I'm skeptical. It happens that much because I just don't think and I do like internet trolling. But for one hundred and ten dollars a month I'm not so sure and you've told me that seeking aggressively bans accounts of people who get flagged for.
[22:28] Keith: I Don't think I don't think they ban pay accounts. Yeah, maybe yeah yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah, but what I coach people to say is something along the lines of while I'm new.
[22:30] Mike: Doing weird stuff. Okay, but or they hassle you somehow maybe they put you on a suspension. Yeah.
[22:47] Keith: To ah seeking itself I'm I'm familiar with the paradigm here and expect you to be as well or something.
[22:57] Mike: Um, yeah I mean I think if they added a couple more sentences saying something like um I blush to admit this you know, but 1 of the things I'm really good at is this and then just a link to like red gifts of maybe a woman just taking deep throat and then. The guy just ejaculates down her throat I think if I think that would up her value to yes I think a man would pay significantly more for a woman who could do some tricks like that.
[23:16] Keith: You know, no, it's I don't think so I think I don't think that's I think most of the men who are like okay. Bet 90% of the money that goes out which is probably contained to like 10% of the men on the site or less are older men who would be absolutely fine with like vanilla. Whatever there are some people who like have various fetishes and kinks. But like I think predominantly.
[23:42] Mike: Sure sure.
[23:55] Keith: It's men who just want to have like some sort of like puritanical view of like young women and so yeah, your intuition that they they really care. What their vagina is doing when it's not in their company I Think that's right, but I don't think that like I don't know being a poll answer or a gymst or whatever materially.
[24:22] Mike: I Think it would up how much you would pay if you were paying I think if the woman had a video of her doing the splits really well you probably that would intrigue you more. Wow.
[24:31] Keith: I don't think it would I don't think it would like for me, it's like I don't expect to be marrying this person anyway and so like the first like 5 nuts are all going to be great regardless and so ah yeah, I don't need parlor tricks until. Sometime after that and there probably isn't going to be sometime after that and so like.
[24:47] Mike: Okay, but just to be clear for the audience you have never had a woman do the splits like over your cock right? like you know she splits herself and then lowers herself down on your cock. So I mean you probably would be willing to like let's say you you knew for sure that a woman could do that that would probably increase your interest.
[24:53] Keith: No I have not.
[25:03] Keith: No, and in fact, the reason why the reason why I paused was I've told you like half of this story before but I met this girl years ago and we were supposed to meet it at 10 p m at a bar which already is like okay I think I see what's going on here and then she arrives she just.
[25:07] Mike: Really.
[25:18] Mike: Wait What's going on wait I don't know what's going on. Okay, so you'd have to meet earlier for it not to be a hookup wake up.
[25:22] Keith: She just wants to hook up like.
[25:27] Keith: When a one it was like ten p m on a Friday or a Saturday it's just like that's like women who like are trying to date. You don't do that that isn't atrocious strategy insist on dinner.
[25:36] Mike: And what would the woman who's trying to date you propose like seven p m Okay, okay, go on. Okay that makes sense. Yeah.
[25:47] Keith: So Anyway, she she shows up an hour late. She's Drunk. We go back to her place. We um, do the deed and then for some reason I slept over I don't know why but this the half of the story I've told you before and then her like parents showed up and I had to like. Jump out the back bathroom window. Um, but anyway I saw her a subsequent time against my better judgment and we were in Golden Gate park on the panhandle and she was wearing a tennis skirt and no underwear and she kept doing like cartwheels and stuff like she was sort of like an ah exhibitionist.
[26:06] Mike: Okay.
[26:24] Mike: Okay.
[26:25] Keith: Suppose and then she wanted to fuck me in the park like she like sat on top of me and starts like you know going for my zipper and I'm like yeah ah.
[26:35] Mike: Can I time out here just a quick time out to our listeners to our listeners I'm so sorry your life isn't like Keith's mine isn't either. Ah, and yeah, the thing that's the thing that must frustrate you here or maybe make you chuckle is he's now going to express frustration about this. Irritating behavior. This woman had that basically I don't know at least 90% of men would be like ah you know I mean maybe there's something irritating but this sounds pretty fucking good to me. So anyway, time back in.
[27:00] Keith: Right? Okay, so she you know so she like climbs off of me and she's like pouting a little bit and then she took to bring this back around. She does the splits in front of me and it definitely. Yeah.
[27:10] Mike: With the weight the splits with the skirt with no panties. So what? so wait she did the splits where this is important. This is so were her. She had one leg and front 1 leg behind.
[27:19] Keith: I don't know it was it was I think it was in the summer the weather was good. So like it wasn't like getting like mud in her vagina or anything. Oh yes, no no, no, no, no is one in front 1 behind.
[27:30] Mike: Not the so-called like Chinese splits I don't know the right word for it. But that's what okay did you get to see like her anus and vagina while she was performing this feat with the no panties. Okay, and what what was was it on grass. Interesting.
[27:36] Keith: Not really the skirt was does the skirt was sort of you know over the? yes yeah I mean and I definitely cocked an eyebrow with that. It's like ha. But.
[27:47] Mike: Okay, go On. Um, yeah.
[27:55] Keith: I mean I mean another part of the story I didn't tell is yeah when I went to meet her the second time at her apartment she had like a big gulp cup and filleds with vodka and like it was like half vodka half half like seven eleven slushy or something. Yeah, a little one? yeah.
[27:56] Mike: Now Jesus yeah.
[28:08] Mike: Sure so she had a substance problem clearly but you had no interest in having her do the splits on your cock. Okay.
[28:14] Keith: Um, no I did. It's just that. Yeah, the reason why I brought this up is yes, it's It's like plus something and we're debating whether it's like plus plus 20 or plus one and I I'm demonstrating with this story that i've. Actually had the experience and it wasn't enough to like get me over the edge to hook up with her again because I was worried that she might like come and burn my house down or something like she was nuts.
[28:37] Mike: Right.
[28:46] Mike: Okay, so a woman so instead a woman in her profile could indicate that she's interested in some kind of monogamy. Um, there was some other thing I thought of but yeah I understand I think I generally agree with your viewpoint here that that it's it's not guys aren't looking necessarily for sexual tricks. They're looking for. Um, they're they're looking for something sort of safe and stable. 1 other thing I would mention is if I was talking to woman it. Of course it depends on what she's looking for but I got to think it would up your value on that site if you somehow made clear that you understood the guy might be married.
[29:19] Keith: Yeah I think some people do do that and I think that's smart although for me for me. Yeah, like a couple things like I when I see somebody say that they are a veteran I almost immediately next them because that's basically their way of saying.
[29:25] Mike: Yes.
[29:37] Mike: They want money right.
[29:39] Keith: There's no way that I'm yeah they want money and I get that that's fine more power to them I have no moral opposition to people doing that. It's just that's not what I'm looking for and so um, but they probably want to filter me out.
[29:54] Mike: And it's the same for the they understand that you might be married or whatever you figure that that's a demographic where that's it's sort of not worth you competing for and also ah, it's something.
[30:01] Keith: Right? If if somebody's if if somebody's willing to tolerate a married man. They want money like they're not there to meet a boyfriend.
[30:10] Mike: Exactly? Yeah, so I think these things are important signaling behaviors I'm not sure I'm not so sure about about Um, okay yeah I mean so showing you a repeat person sort of indicate. There is some signaling there and that I can agree with yeah.
[30:24] Keith: Yeah, but maybe signaling they went all right. We got to get to some of these topics that I promised in the intro. Ah because we're already a half an hour in here all right? This woman writes my boyfriend won't let me see him come. So I've had sex with my boyfriend 5 times now and I've known him for about a year he's great in bed. However, the only thing that ruins it is the fact that he pulls out before he comes because he doesn't want to finish inside me which is fine but he always finishes before I do he quickly pulls out and runs to finish in the bathroom closing the door and often leaving me just laying there. Then cuddle until he recovers and repeats the same process a couple more times I don't mind if he doesn't come inside me but it would be huge turn on to see him come anywhere on me. Why does he do this and how do I tell him I want to see him come by the way we don't use condoms because I'm on birth control.
[31:01] Mike: Um, what.
[31:14] Mike: Um, and also because he comes in the toilet. Oh no, he's doing a multiple shots. So I guess there could still be semen a sperm. Okay yeah, they should be careful because he's coming and then coming back from the bathroom and then they're having sex more and so then there's a legitimate risk. Yes.
[31:15] Keith: Well hold on.
[31:28] Keith: Um, I'm not positive. He's coming in the bathroom.
[31:32] Mike: I Think that's a fair, a fair assessment especially since they are having sex again. Yeah that that's probably that's probably the right analysis. Yeah.
[31:37] Keith: Um I don't know Yes, it's like he wants to seem like he has a super short refractory period or something.
[31:48] Mike: Right? So is it ah is it a game. He's playing or is he actually unable to orgasm for some reason could be either.
[31:53] Keith: Um, yeah I could imagine having shame about my own come I don't fortunately because I would be that would be a drag.
[31:59] Mike: The interesting thing about this this guy Actually it strikes me that he's basically the mirror image or the inverse and inverse of of what most guys would want to do or well that's not exactly but I think most guys if they're if you were given the choice of okay.
[32:08] Keith: Um, yes.
[32:15] Mike: You're either going to beat off in the bathroom and then come in when you're within a minute of coming and you'll insert your penis and come in her vagina or the inverse I think most men would pick the the first choice right? Yeah yeah, this reminds me by the way another in my.
[32:19] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah inverse would yet they choose the one where they're coming with the woman. Yeah.
[32:33] Mike: Not extensive but non-zero reading after the death of lisa marie pressley I learned that ah priscilla presley divorced or separated whatever from elvis because he he stopped being willing to have sex with her because she he couldn't have or was unwilling to have sex with someone who was a mother.
[32:51] Keith: Huh.
[32:51] Mike: What Wikipedia this is what Wikipedia said so it's got to be true right? I mean the way you collect all the random facts of the people post. Yeah, so ah, yeah, so anyway and what I what got me thinking there a little bit was um, that actually.
[32:55] Keith: I'm I'm surprised it's in Wikipedia it's it's it's definitely cited.
[33:10] Mike: Disagreed with like I I guess that makes sense but I but I it was a little surprising to me that that it's it's sort of like this post right in the sense that I would my root assumption of course Elvis was getting fat and stuff like that. But my root assumption would be that a woman would tolerate that.
[33:24] Keith: Um, the her.
[33:27] Mike: A woman would not actually care that much about not having sex with the guy as long as the rest of the elements of the relationship were there so there was it sort of caught my eye that she specifically said oh like this the complete lack of physical companionship was such a big problem for it does suggest that maybe she was pretty horny which is.
[33:34] Keith: Um, yeah.
[33:47] Mike: Not as hot as it was back then because she's like in her late 70 s now. But.
[33:50] Keith: Right? right? Um I mean is there any other like could he be like it could it be an intimacy thing. He doesn't want to.
[34:04] Keith: Now this poster.
[34:04] Mike: Are you talking about Elvis or this poster or both um I mean well thinking of Elvis it makes me wonder if it's drugs right? I mean drugs there are drugs that inhibit orgasm and so maybe he's ashamed of that.
[34:14] Keith: And so he needs so he just goes into the bathroom and jerks it.
[34:19] Mike: I Think no I think your take on this is right? He's not actually orgasming I'm convinced by that you were yeah that was a very wise take you had.
[34:22] Keith: Okay, he's probably embarrassed that he can't and so he's just pretending that he is.
[34:30] Mike: Or he just has to poop really bad in the middle of sex. Oh only 5 but I thought they were married or something got it. Okay.
[34:36] Keith: Yeah, but they've had sex 5 times now she said that she's known him for a year but they've just had sex 5 times so he's done this each of the 5 times anyway, let's move on. Ah.
[34:51] Mike: What can I say 1 more thing speaking of pooping ah I was watching Chatterbait two days ago and there was this very attractive red haired. It was fake red but she was very young. She was like 19 which means she was born in like 2004 just to keep a keep us. Ah.
[34:52] Keith: Of course.
[34:57] Keith: Oh no.
[35:05] Keith: I know it's wild probably 3 But yeah, it could be if she was January baby.
[35:09] Mike: Yeah, and so she was masturbating on the camera. Okay I like to think it's 2004 like she's a January baby? Yeah, ah, but she was masturbating on there and then she started just driving her finger in and out of her asshole and whimpering the whole time and I actually I was surprised that that.
[35:29] Keith: 1 finger couldn't you like tear the inside of your colon with your finger nails I don't know been really.
[35:29] Mike: Was working for me a little bit. Yeah, yeah, there was no poop that came out it was just and it didn't yeah well the colon is pretty far in there. She she had fingernails she had like maybe one inch long fingernails.
[35:42] Keith: Yeah, that just seems.
[35:47] Mike: I think it was the whimpering that I liked it was fake. It was clearly fake but it's still. But yeah anyway, the reason the reason this was on my mind was because um, a friend of the show Eric was telling me that ah this is wild to me, let me I'd actually like to get your take on this and he would probably too.
[35:49] Keith: But it was so it was enough that you didn't turn the channel immediately.
[36:03] Keith: Okay, he's kind of get it Anyway, he could he could come on if he wants to if he wants to argue about it.
[36:05] Mike: Maybe he wouldn't I don't know he should want. He should want. Okay, um, exactly he he so he is a an aficion Auto of gone wild audio the subreddit but he told me so I was like okay you know all right.
[36:17] Keith: Um, yeah I remember him mentioning this in the past? yeah.
[36:23] Mike: Ah, you know he likes some some of the dirty talk or whatever and and specifically likes dirty talk. It's not like the whimpering part he likes he wouldn't tell me exactly what he wanted them to say which suggests to me. It's really kinky and embarrassing. So anyway he will he I said well. Okay, so when you're beating off using gone wild audio like what do you do and he says this is true. He said.
[36:33] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[36:42] Mike: I just zone out and stare at the wall and nut and then not and make myself nut and I was like I don't so then I went on gone wild audio and I tried to do this I haven't told him this yet I could I couldn't first of all I couldn't the well first of all and he admitted he knew this that like the women there are almost certainly unattractive doing the audio.
[36:48] Keith: Um, yeah.
[37:02] Mike: And secondly I just couldn't but I couldn't I couldn't suspend disbelief I think I need the video for because I was I don't yeah I'm worried It's a guy I'm worried she's unattractive I'm worried like she's just like eating a fucking pizza while she's saying these things like I don't know what's going on.
[37:03] Keith: That's okay, you the mind's eye can can paper over that.
[37:13] Keith: I mean how are you going to feel like in 2 years when almost all porn is Ai generated. Are you going to need watermarks for authenticity or like how are you going to like? do you think you'll be bothered not being sure that video is real.
[37:32] Mike: Well, you're in, you're going to. You're going to shame me for not masturbating to henai porn next I know so I'm ready for that. Um, maybe I mean that that could that could very well be a problem for me I mean have you have you ever beaten off? What do you? What do you think about this tendency that Eric has to.
[37:43] Keith: Um, yeah.
[37:47] Mike: Zone out while zoning out while looking at a wall. Anybody who knows Eric knows that zoning out while looking at a wall is not at all surprising that's something that he he definitely could could imagine him doing he he wouldn't disagree. It's it's his but but he but but.
[37:56] Keith: Um, not here to defend himself man.
[38:03] Mike: Gone wild audio and then beating off while doing that I Just don't think that I don't I Actually don't think I could finish What do you think.
[38:08] Keith: Um, I Well okay I have myriad thoughts here. Um, the first is we did talk about this with him at some time in the past or or maybe you did on the show I don't remember if I was there or not but I remember this coming up and it caused me to you know.
[38:16] Mike: I Think so.
[38:25] Keith: Run some experiments and I kind of liked it and I didn't like that I like I feel the same way about audio porn as I do about pegging which is yeah I have this like mild concern that I'll like it and I don't.
[38:28] Mike: Um, oh.
[38:43] Keith: Think my life will be better if I like it and so I'd rather not know.
[38:45] Mike: Is this is this like your fear so you and I've discussed this before ah for going running. Um, you've you've talked before about like closing your eyes and seeing how far you can run or you how far you can make yourself run without your eyes open and I think you've made it like 100 steps before.
[38:54] Keith: Yeah, yeah, not a hundred but forty maybe
[39:02] Mike: Okay, okay, it's because it gets increasingly scary is this like that is it like you're net, you're venturing into the unknown because you don't have a visual stimuli and you're not sure if like at the end like when you ejaculate you'll become gay or something.
[39:15] Keith: No I like um like have you read these these like have you been to literotica.com I think that's and they have like all these you know porn stories. And yeah, it's still at literotica.com and
[39:20] Mike: Um, sure.
[39:33] Keith: Yeah, there was a time in my life where like I I don't know if I preferred that to pictures and videos but I can definitely use Literotica to jerk off. Um, but that feels less depraved in some way than audio does I don't i.
[39:47] Mike: Right? okay.
[39:50] Keith: Yeah, there's something that makes me feel makes me squirm a little bit thinking about jerking off to audio. But yeah I got to say like I can imagine enjoying that thoroughly I just haven't experimented with enough. It's interesting that you weren't able to get there I mean maybe.
[40:00] Mike: Interesting.
[40:06] Mike: Yeah I immediately disliked it.
[40:09] Keith: Maybe you should try some more like maybe try some other content audio content or something.
[40:12] Mike: Um, well now I'm kind of scared I'm afraid that what I would really like is like a man I do I have like the stories. Yeah.
[40:18] Keith: Now there's going to be well. There's going to be like all these different things right? They'll be like sort of asmr and they'll be like gentle. They'll be like do you like? um jerk off instruction porn. Ok that tracks.
[40:24] Mike: I Don't like that. No I don't want someone telling me what to do.
[40:37] Keith: It's I think it's well it varies it varies.
[40:39] Mike: I'd rather she tell herself what to do I'd write I'd I'd rather she give herself instructions as she's rubbing her clit like verbally so I get to watch her like command herself or have another woman tell her what to do I don't want to be told what to do like I'll jerk off the way I want.
[40:49] Keith: Yeah I think most that the kink at scratching for most people is permission not being told what to do but it varies. Yeah.
[41:00] Mike: I don't need that. Yeah I'm I'm way Beyond permission I'm I'm definitely to to forgiveness and Beyond permission. What? Ah by the way one other thing um ah have you noticed that when you and I know you probably don't like oral sex porn I've know I've been because they've shut down like half of my.
[41:17] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[41:17] Mike: Subreddits that I like for porn maybe 2 wo-thirds of them. It's really irritating for lack of a moderator so I've been using I think I mentioned this girls finishing the job and ah a lot of women swallowing come in there and I've noticed. That in almost all the videos. The woman closes her eyes. Once you can tell actually when he starts ejaculating because she closes her eyes have you noticed this before okay does it because women often will say that they want to connect with their partner during his orgasm. They like to see him enjoying himself and yet they close their eyes.
[41:36] Keith: No, but this makes sense. Now. It's like now it's like there's some like instinctual thing like right as the batter makes contact with the baseball or a tennis player makes contact with the tennis ball like there they close their eyes. It's like some sort of like anticipatory protect.
[42:02] Mike: Um, okay, but this isn't hang on here. It's not a blink. It's they close their eyes for okay I understand yeah no, but they continue to close their eyes until until and then like maybe 5 seconds later they'll open them and make some you know gesture or whatever.
[42:06] Keith: I know? Ah, but I think they're bracing for some sort of impact and the the.
[42:18] Keith: Okay, fine. Ah maybe they're just trying to protect themselves. They don't want to get come in their eye.
[42:20] Mike: I Think they're trying to I think they're no I think they're trying to be fully present with his ejaculation I think they're enjoying or at least purporting to enjoy. But but the thing that's funny is even in clearly professional porn. The women will will basically always offend effectively. Always do that.
[42:27] Keith: Oh.
[42:37] Keith: So they're they're trying to remove other stimulus so they can fully feel the semen going down their throat.
[42:38] Mike: I Appreciate it.
[42:43] Mike: Um, yeah, they're connecting to his orgasm. That's right, Do you close your eyes when ah when you're giving cunnoingus to a woman and she orgasms meet me there? yeah.
[42:52] Keith: Um I don't think so I mean you're so you know the Retina the cornea can only focus so close and you're sort of in there. It's not a whole lot to see I mean it depends exactly on your position of course. But.
[43:00] Mike: Um, that's true.
[43:08] Mike: Um, yeah.
[43:11] Keith: I don't the visual stimulus is not the primary thing going on there. So I think I think ah of the five senses. It's probably fifth right? So first would be taste second would be.
[43:15] Mike: What it? What's the primary thing that her peer per.
[43:29] Mike: Um, interesting.
[43:30] Keith: Ah smell third would be touch fourth would be sound and then the ah fifth would be eyes or something like if I had to give up. Yeah this when I'm going down on a woman like if I had to like sacrifice my senses I think I would sacrifice them in that reverse order. So.
[43:36] Mike: So this is wait I Just want to be clear on this. This is when you're.
[43:48] Mike: I Think it's very this is ironic this is ironic given the conversation. We just had about gone wild audio but I strongly feel that the sound is the most telling sense when you're giving an orgasm to a woman.
[43:48] Keith: Site first I would rather be blindfolded than smell folded.
[44:05] Keith: Oh yeah, well yeah, it's certainly you can't taste or smell. Um, you can feel they can like yeah but they can move themselves into you feeling is important.
[44:06] Mike: The sound she makes.
[44:12] Mike: I'm just talking in terms like if you if your ears were plugggged. That's true. Yes, that's probably number 2 No but hang on you went you went taste smell feeling.
[44:20] Keith: I think I think I I think one and 2 are are feeling and sound in some order I was thinking I I wasn't thinking about her pleasure I was thinking about my pleasure.
[44:29] Mike: Hearing and I'm literally going the opposite.
[44:33] Mike: Oh I got it.
[44:36] Keith: So assuming that I'm confident I can give her an orgasm I I do agree that I need sound I need some sort of feedback to be able to tailor my technique. Yeah, we're saying the same things here.
[44:42] Mike: Okay, okay, yeah I don't Okay I think that I generally no no, we aren't because I think that my my enjoyment of it is directly related to hers in the sense that ah in this always you know? For example, there are many men who visit. Escorts and prostitutes who want to give them oral sex I would have 0 interest in that because I know what would happen I mean I know it's so but but what you're saying is that for your pleasure. Actually the smell of of Vagina is important and so maybe you would actually be a man who would want DATY dinner at the y.
[44:58] Keith: Yeah, fine.
[45:16] Keith: I think I mean I reject the premise here that I'm not interested in her pleasure like that's obviously the main value of going down on someone I Just don't yeah I think yeah, we're having like a weird vocabulary.
[45:27] Mike: Okay.
[45:36] Mike: Do you think you're primarily interested in her pleasure or the fact or like the accomplishment of making your orgasm in the sense that like what it says about you? Yeah yeah, okay, not ah.
[45:36] Keith: Debate here.
[45:41] Keith: I Mean let's be honest, It's the latter but like they're they're they, they're perfectly correlated so doesn't really matter. They're not perfectly correlated but they're there.
[45:53] Mike: That true all right I understand got it I got it? Okay, yeah.
[45:57] Keith: You know? Yeah, you're off by you're off by ° or something you know it's pretty close all right. Let's talk about this disastrous threesome I love these disastrous threesomes for my boyfriend's birthday for my boyfriend's twenty eighth birthday I got him a threesome with me who's 26 and my bestie who's 27
[46:05] Mike: Yes, in.
[46:15] Keith: Was an amazing birthday surprise I cooked him dinner and I had my bestie join us. We surprised him with the present during dessert everything went well and we all had an amazing time. My bestie and I hooked up a few times before so that made things surprisingly comfortable. However, pause here I like how she.
[46:28] Mike: For my hand for for my thirtieth birthday. My wife had Eric flown up to have dinner with me so not quite the same level but go on kind of.
[46:39] Keith: Yeah, what a monster. However, there was 1 awkward moment for me. We all at 1 point passed out I think for your fortieth she had Eric at I come for. We met it? Um, the suvio remember.
[46:49] Mike: Yeah, she doesn't get it. She misunderstands what men want? yeah.
[46:56] Keith: Excuse me might my company wasn't what you were hoping for it eight p M on on your birthday. Um, all right? However, there was 1 awkward moment for me. We all at 1 point passed out on the bed I was awoken by my boyfriend and bestie fucking next to me.
[46:59] Mike: It was fine. It was fine.
[47:14] Mike: Halloon.
[47:14] Keith: Pretended to be asleep but I listened and watched I wasn't upset at the time. In fact, I was a little turned on now that some time has passed I feel really weird about it as my boyfriend, what happened and he said the best he started playing with him and that got him going and he just went with it to be fair, we didn't set out any ground Rules. So. I know I'm not supposed to be mad. It just feels weird any thoughts advice suggestions.
[47:36] Mike: That should have been ah I asked him what happened and he said hang on I'm fucking your friend I'll respond in an hour I'll text you back in an hour.
[47:39] Keith: Yeah, yeah, I like how she's sort of blaming herself. She's like oh we didn't set out ground rules and so the the notion of them just fucking off to the side without me wasn't explicitly Forbidden and so I'm not. In my rights to feel upset by this is preposterous.
[48:00] Mike: And I like that the guy put the blame on the woman which is less than 10 percent in other words for initiating. It's not yeah I do yeah and he figured I mean that's actually kind of cool like.
[48:08] Keith: Oh who knows but like yeah my I suspect that ah he was not the victim here.
[48:17] Mike: Basically his view of this his view of are they married I Forget doesn't matter his view of relationships is that you can fuck anyone what you want as long as you're significant others in the bed with you so you could just Duckt taper to the bed and then just fuck lots of women in there.
[48:22] Keith: Ah, now if they're not.
[48:27] Keith: Bright apparently i. I just I can't imagine I mean these people are 28 and 26 they're not 19 you know I just and then you know she's still calling this third her bestie. So.
[48:38] Mike: Yeah.
[48:51] Keith: Like wouldn't she be.
[48:53] Mike: Did she ah say anything about where her boyfriend ejaculated I bet I that would be a moment I think the woman I know I mean not being a woman I don't understand exactly how this works emotionally. But I do think that from extensive reading on this subject that it bothers women when.
[48:55] Keith: Now.
[49:11] Mike: Have to watch their man ejaculate in another woman that semen the seamen where the semen goes is surprisingly important.
[49:13] Keith: Yeah I could imagine that not being an emotional high point for a girlfriend to see right now should be a with probably godmother because there.
[49:25] Mike: He's like high 5 You're a step mom now is that what you would be I'm not sure what.
[49:33] Keith: Because they're best friends right? Don't you tell you make the godparents. Your best friend usually.
[49:37] Mike: Okay, but if he married that's too complicated but the point is like yeah it's the there's There's a basic reason a basic ah evolutionary or psychological reason a woman wouldn't like that. Yeah, but.
[49:45] Keith: Right? Yeah, oh it would be stepmother if she was married to the first person. All right Let's move on I a 28 year old female am no longer sexually satisfied by my husband who's 29 to be clear I still find him physically attractive I think he's beautiful. A gorgeous man exactly my type his body is so sexy to me. He treats me so well I'm proud to stand next to him I love to look at him across the dinner table and I want to want to have sex with him but when it comes time to actually do it. It feels like kissing a cousin. We had sexual chemistry but it's gone. We've been together for 6 years and all of the best. Sex and my life has been with my husband It's not even close and fleeting moments I wondered if I should have prioritized dating someone with more money or more education but happily dismissed the idea because not only am I truly at love. But the sex was so good that I knew I wouldn't be happier. Ah.
[50:24] Mike: Oh no. Jesus.
[50:33] Mike: La.
[50:36] Keith: With more money but worse sex. Okay, we might can you try not to perciferate on the money thing I suspect that this may be a hormonal thing I had a marina iud put in a month after we started sleeping together and that iud stayed in place until four months ago a few weeks ago after the iud came out. Lost my sexual attraction to my husband and it hasn't come back even a little bit. My sex drive has never been higher and in lots of ways the sex has never been better, but it always leaves me feeling unsatisfied came off of birth control because I could keep reading here but I don't know if it's.
[51:06] Mike: Yeah, yeah, she's she might be right I mean that that this does seem like it could be a something like that. But the ah I really thought this was going to go one direction until you brought up that that I was surprised usually I can sort of ah imagine where these these things are going to go but this one.
[51:09] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[51:20] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[51:22] Mike: Took a turn to the left abruptly. Um, yeah, but I um.
[51:28] Keith: I suspect that he is behaving Beta in some way that is removing the mystery from their relationship and she just finds him irritating now.
[51:35] Mike: Yes.
[51:42] Mike: Maybe she just inherited some money who knows I mean? Yeah, yeah, yes, that be like I actually and this is yeah this is an uncomfortable reality I think is that but my first thought before you got to the he's an a poor idiot.
[51:57] Keith: Poor looser. Yeah.
[52:00] Mike: Yeah, that part I'm not that makes me less less confident. But until you said that I thought to myself. Yeah, he's not being aggressive enough. So she's he's actually women think they want 1 thing they believe truly they want 1 thing but actually when they get that thing. It isn't exactly what they want which actually I think is true for men. Um in the following way.
[52:09] Keith: Right.
[52:19] Mike: Men think what a man thinks he wants is an eternally 18 year old super attractive woman who just will fuck him all the time. Actually what a man wants is like someone who you know is attractive will have sex with him but like is capable of having a conversation with him as well like what men want we actually you know and so if you had that eternally 18 year old woman you would get tired of her that.
[52:32] Keith: Um, yeah.
[52:38] Mike: Thus the quote that every hot woman for every hot woman. There's a man who's tired of fucking her or whatever, whatever the quote is ah and so yeah, that's yeah, that's sort of my take here that would that was my initial take yeah and but you know honestly the money and career thing she brought it up and that could be another element of being like maybe she's thinking about that that plays in her mind.
[52:42] Keith: Yeah, that's that's the quote.
[52:57] Mike: And as long as he's kind of like that motorcycle guy who slaps her around or whatever she wants. It's it's hot Consensually, of course um maybe you but but yeah, but but he's he's just being too nice. Yeah.
[53:07] Keith: Yeah, let me read a couple more paragraphs because it actually informs what's going on here a little bit more I came off of birth control because we're planning to try to have a baby together this year I've considered whether this sudden and upsetting drop in sexual desire might be apprehension about the baby. But I don't think that's it.
[53:16] Mike: Okay, um.
[53:25] Keith: Still want to have a baby I want to have a baby so much with him with my husband but now I don't know if I want to lock myself into a lifelong marriage and parenting partnership of sex that doesn't do it for me anymore I feel like I've tried everything Omg's communication wait. What is this a word o m.
[53:31] Mike: O.
[53:44] Keith: GYESOMG yes is that does that I know but I feel like I've tried everything oh my god yes, that doesn't make sense anyway, communication so much communication toys in bed new locations. Our relationship has never been happier healthier I have joyful nights out with friends. We have our own separate hobbies and together hobbies.
[53:44] Mike: Oh man, Oh my God yes.
[54:03] Keith: I'm living in a dream marriage and I have incredibly high sex drive just not for him for nearly anyone but him this has done a number. Yeah, this has done a number on my self-esteem? Yeah the her rip her inbox I'm so I'm so ashamed to be having all that all this sex that I secretly hate to be so horny all the time in a way I can't manage.
[54:07] Mike: Um, Wow I'd like her phone number. Yeah.
[54:19] Mike: Oh.
[54:22] Keith: Have to keep such a cruel secret from someone I Love so much and who gives himself to me so freely and it's such a vulnerable way. Yeah, okay, we we got it.
[54:27] Mike: This is starting to get weird the word cruel suggests maybe like it's It's an unusual word to pick in that context. Yeah.
[54:32] Keith: Cruel Secret What is wrong with me that I just can't be happy. Be a happy wife who loves to fuck her adoring hot husband. What can I do am I doomed. It's been months will this pass do I Just have the baby with the man I Love and accept what comes after.
[54:43] Mike: I am.
[54:48] Keith: Days of having good fulfilling sex behind me I'm only 28 we've been together since I was 22 basically my entire adult life is this just something that happens when you get older or are in a serious long term relationship.
[54:58] Mike: Um, older. Yeah I mean this is this is yeah it's I mean the biological drive this this certainly has something to do with her wanting to have a kid and the biological drive. The woman has is to have a partner that she emotionally trusts will look out for her. And her family once she and the kid once she becomes much more vulnerable which women do when they're pregnant and having a kid particularly in like a non-modern context but also in a modern context realistically and he's just not doing that and so yeah I mean she's just she's yeah like he was like a good fuckboy and it turns out he's not actually.
[55:22] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[55:32] Mike: She emotionally knows he would not make a good provider.. That's what's going on and that's like honestly that's what lies at the core of like a lot of the red pill stuff like people are essentially what people are coming up with and I know people are very strong opinions about Red pill. It's me the um, but but the point of the red pill stuff I think actually is that. Um, men are trying to trigger this response or this impulse from women that women are looking fundamentally for a guy that meets these needs and so then men are of course trying to play you know to game that system and to appear to be a guy that will be a strong provider or whatever. Admittedly in the red pill Context. They're just trying to fuck her.
[56:06] Keith: Yeah, yeah I mean I asked you not to prociferate on that money Bitd but gosh it's hard not to I mean this is so coherent and well writtenten and it's just odd that she mentioned that money and education thing.
[56:07] Mike: And then make fun of her. But.
[56:26] Keith: Um, because I'm sure I haven't read the comments here but I'm sure if somebody said something like what you just said she would just outright reject it but ah yeah, she's sort of just sort of betraying herself by betraying or be lying I Never know which word to use but yet she's.
[56:31] Mike: Yes, look I mean there you know.
[56:45] Keith: Sabotaging her point by mentioning that.
[56:48] Mike: Yeah I mean yeah, emotions are serve a point serve a purpose. They're your subconscious telling you stuff. Ah, you guys can go watch. Ah Jordan what's his name Jordan Peterson to learn more about that I'm sort of kidding.
[56:59] Keith: Peterson.
[57:01] Mike: But you could like that's like basic psychology right? that your that your emotions are coming out of your subconscious they're telling you things and and they sort of are what they are And yeah, what's going on here is she shouldn't she she shouldn't have a kid with him.
[57:05] Keith: Yeah.
[57:12] Keith: Yeah, yeah, she's been basically given this gift which is yeah some combination of a hormonal change and thinking toward the future that has affected her drive toward her partner.
[57:28] Mike: Yeah, and she'll probably she'll probably decide that it's all okay, she'll have the kid and then she'll just get she'll get tired of him. It reminds me of that thing we discussed last week where the sugar daddy gave the sugar baby all the money up front for an entire year. Do you remember that.
[57:30] Keith: And.
[57:43] Keith: Yes.
[57:45] Mike: And it's sort of the same thing. It's like she'll think oh this will be fine. This is going to work great. But the thing is she can't control that emotion. It will just come and come and come and eventually like after the you know nine months of not being paid. She'll be angry with this woman after like however, many years or months of him not providing in the way she thinks he should. She's going to.
[57:50] Keith: Ah, yeah.
[57:59] Keith: Um, yeah.
[58:03] Mike: Find reasons to not like him so be better for her just to like figure it out now and be honest about it and this is why guys like I mean if you want to have a stable situation guys have to get out and make some money. It's just the way it is like women that's ultimately women's bottom line like women don't like ah.
[58:16] Keith: Yeah.
[58:21] Mike: Women don't like losers or stare at the wall while masturbating to audio porn.
[58:21] Keith: Who sit on their couch playing video games.
[58:29] Keith: Ah, what if they're really good at video games particularly colorful mobile apps. So the first comment here is Jesus fuck the comments in here are horrendous. Okay look.
[58:33] Mike: Oh no, yeah.
[58:43] Keith: Made I'm not much of a romantic and I don't believe in soulmates that said you objectively find your husband attractive and you used to have good sexual chemistry with him So I don't think you should take this as a sign that you're not meant to be together. There may be a hormonal component.. There may be an attitude component if you have a disconnect between so seeing someone as sexual and seeing them as a partner or provider. Maybe components of needs not being met or desires not corresponding all of these are worth exploring more I don't know I I I can make arguments on both sides of the art of the case that if you. Find your partner completely sexually unattractive that that is a clear sign that they're not. You know that there's something wrong.
[59:27] Mike: Yeah, you're in trouble I mean if you if you have an emotion and you really go through it and you conclude like there's no rational basis for this emotion and you really maybe think through it with another person so you can be as rational objective as possible like that can happen people can have in a hormonal change or something in this case, there's an obvious really kind of obvious.
[59:35] Keith: Um, yeah.
[59:47] Mike: Connection between the emotion. She's having and a very rational concern and that the problem is that the emotion is just going to persist because it's actually pretty rational and she'll just wind up incorporating into her conscious thinking and start hating the guy like they'll just wind up. They're They're definitely going to wind up divorce now.
[59:59] Keith: Yeah I mean that's a safe bet in any context in this one. It feels particularly safe. Yeah anyway, all right? That'll do it for episode 1 Oh 2 of your mileage may vary. Ah you can contact us.
[01:00:09] Mike: Chore.
[01:00:17] Keith: If you contact us we respond we respond to almost everything we receive except when it's really weird like yeah if it's if it's incoherent or if you're like propositioning us. Oh yeah.
[01:00:23] Mike: Gibberish. Yeah, we get some gibberish sometimes oh and stop sending us stop sending his paypal requests for money. We're not going to send you money right.
[01:00:33] Keith: But we will send you money if you give us feedback. We pay $10 anyone who gives us feedback. So yeah, that those paypal requests are for people like they could. They could just said as fake feedback but they're not even smart enough to do that? Yeah, oh yeah.
[01:00:38] Mike: Give it.
[01:00:44] Mike: They wanted six hundred and ninety nine dollars which is kind of funny because of the 69 but like we're not sending you six hundred and ninety nine bucks yeah good try though
[01:00:52] Keith: Yeah anyway, so yeah, you can ask us questions there and if they're interesting. We'll we'll ask them on the show or you can tell us not to ask them on the show and we'll respect that you can also give us feedback. We really like getting feedback because it can make the show better. Ah. So to do that you can tweet us at Ymmvpod or you can-mail us at y m mv pod at Gmail.com thank you for listening and we'll catch you next week on your mileage may vary.