YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary Podcast

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Episode 104: Sexless Situations, Female Initiation, Sex Rejection, "Do Whatever You Want"

Team YMMV | 2-9-2023 | 1:04:23

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I make it my mission to avoid talking about intimacy wherever possible. I prefer to focus instead on "hard-core porn," which I believe better aligns with the realities of life. But, as Britney Spears sang in her hit song, "From the Bottom of My Broken Heart": "You put a dart through my dreams, through my heart."

And so it is that we discussed at decent length the final destination of relationships where the sex stops. I would genuinely like to have better news for our listeners, but I'm afraid it's typically a sign things aren't going to get much better, and they'll likely get much worse.

We also discuss women's various challenges communicating to partners their intentions and desires. What if they just want cuddling and not sex? How is it even possible to communicate this to a partner? What if instead they want a real man's man; a real protector? Should they ask a man to rough them up in bed?

And what to do if a woman says no to a sexual encounter once, only to realize she really wants a relationship with the guy? How to recover the satellites?

Here is the masturbation device we discussed at the beginning of the episode:

https://ymmv.me/104/stroker

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/104/sexless

https://ymmv.me/104/do-whatever

https://ymmv.me/104/denied

https://ymmv.me/104/finishing

https://ymmv.me/104/initiation

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is controversial but mostly in good faith I've collated what I hope will be an interesting group of topics to discuss today including sexless marriages the expectation for men to be dominant how to undo rejecting a man and more. I'm Keith my co-host is Mike and Mike we've been called out by a few folks for talking about sugar daddying too much should we impose a moratorium.
[00:31] Mike: Yeah, there was a listener who proposed that and we I think I replied and so that's not a you know, whatever sure I Ah appreciate that we have not gotten anybody complaining about us talking about escorts too much.
[00:45] Keith: I Think it was applied that that was also included in me. Yeah I mean my guess is that his complaint is something like ah we're talking about a thing that.
[00:47] Mike: Did it was oh no brutal.
[01:00] Keith: Is really only available to a small percentage of folks and so our anecdotes and speculating around. It is sort of less interesting.
[01:08] Mike: True although I assume the allure of Tv shows like the real housewives and such are basically or keeping up with the kardashians that kind of thing is just speculating. You know what's it like in that car. You know what's it like to be rich like that. So I don't know it seems like a.
[01:24] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:28] Mike: As American as Apple pie. But fair enough fair enough I think there's a lot of other topics we can um we can jump on here.
[01:34] Keith: Yeah I want to clarify what is funny at the beginning of her moratorium is a explosion of sugar daddy and talk but I want to clarify 1 thing before we don't talk about it for a few episodes which is ah we do talk about the website seeking.com a lot formally seeking arrangement. And I do use it for dating but I have never paid any women any money to go on a date with me I use it because it's more useful than tinder and bumble for reasons that I've described on about 17 episodes of this podcast. So if you're interested. You could go back and listen. But I want to clarify that so that ah people aren't confused about that which I think that guy may have met look to the extent. It's unbelievable I understand that but I but I just wanted to be clear that that is by claim and it is also true.
[02:13] Mike: Right? And we completely we all completely believe you cave I got it? Yes, that's a problem. Yes, it's like.
[02:27] Keith: But of course I might claim that if it weren't true. So I understand it's hard to know.
[02:32] Mike: Yeah, various getting pegged. It's like getting pegged no guy. But for the most part guys are going to say they haven't done it. Yeah.
[02:36] Keith: Um, yeah, right? Ah, we've avoided talking about this but did you see that Alex Cooper of the call her daddy podcast. Ah. Got a $60000000 deal with Spotify.
[02:54] Mike: Um, that's a pretty small deal. Um I would expected more you I think if I I listened while doing some yard work like a year ago maybe longer I listened to maybe 10 episodes of it and had some it was fine.
[03:04] Keith: Aha.
[03:09] Keith: It's a lot of yard work.
[03:12] Mike: Ah, aren't the episodes like 20 minutes I'm not short. Okay, maybe it was like 5 episodes then it wasn't very many but ah I didn't it was it was good at first it's titillating um most of the I think we may this this actually may be true. We may be the number One Sex Podcast hosted by men.
[03:12] Keith: Now I'll think so all right? yeah.
[03:31] Keith: Yeah I think that is right.
[03:32] Mike: Probably right? most of the top ones are hosted by women a lot of them are just Literotica ah and the other ones tend to be done by women and I think that that's because there is a certain element. Well there are women who want to listen to women.
[03:39] Keith: Um, yeah.
[03:49] Mike: Do that stuff it and secondly there are men who get titillated by it and I think this one falls into that latter category in large measure. Maybe that's wrong, though, you've listened more than I have So what? what are your thoughts.
[04:00] Keith: Ah, so they got famous. It used to be co-hosted but she had some sort of traumatic falling out I don't remember the details but they got famous in an early episode when she described her blowjob Technique. It's called like the gluck luck. 5000 or something and you know she went into considerable vocal detail and there may have been some asmr component I don't I don't remember but that sort of catapulted them and then yeah she talks about her personal life. She has a bunch of sort of.
[04:16] Mike: And enough.
[04:26] Mike: Um.
[04:34] Keith: Catchphrase type things and she has a I think it's obnoxious but a sort of distinctive laugh I find it intolerable I I find it sort of boring I find it's sort of fake and she's trying to thread some needle of like wokeness while being scandalous and it's just. Uncompeling to me but man it is a apparently popular show of Spotify thinks. It'll bring subscribers to them which they must.
[05:02] Mike: We were. We were hoping to get a deal for something like sixty sixty dollars 60000 just or 60 Yeah.
[05:10] Keith: Yeah, yeah, it's YMMvPod at gmail.com if you're trying to contact us Spotify. Um, let's see ah did you let let me I'm going to paste this link to you I saw a link to a new masturbation tool.
[05:27] Mike: Oh good.
[05:28] Keith: And it looks I don't know I actually didn't check the price on this. Okay, it's $70 it's called the arc wave po w I don't know what maybe it's pow manual stroker.
[05:34] Mike: Okay.
[05:41] Mike: Power.
[05:44] Keith: And ah, the summary here says many guys would like to improve their self-pleasure routine but are leery of sticking their member into a battery operated gadget. The arcwave pow offers an alternative. It's manually powered no batteries required using air pressure to pleasurably tighten during use a. Pressure release valve enables The user to control the amount of suction it creates the super smooth, clean, Tech Silicone Inner Slee accommodates all sizes Cleanup is a breeze with a dual entry design Internal Helix were faster trying and ventilated lids that keep it protected after use.
[06:18] Mike: I Don't actually understand what it does I mean I will say that it says it's a manual stroker. So yeah, the total name here is the arcwave Pal manual stroker and the thing about it is I mean I don't want to belittle this device but I feel like my hand.
[06:20] Keith: Um I don't either he yeah.
[06:37] Mike: Is also a manual stroker. So I'm not really super impressed by that description. Um I see yeah so I'm thinking that that implies that it's not an automated strokers therefore you have to move your hand up and down. So this sounds like the thing that I got mailed on accident from ah in in.
[06:47] Keith: Is.
[06:55] Keith: All right? yep.
[06:56] Mike: Like tahoe that then I used a few times and it was fine. A lot of Lube requirement and that one was just sort of like this sort of flashlight type thing. Um, the cleanup was really gross. Um I don't know it wasn't it was it was fine.
[07:15] Keith: Yeah.
[07:15] Mike: Ah, for me. Ah it was it was almost it was the stimulation was sort of not I couldn't control it to the extent in the well enough. So it. It actually was significantly less compelling than my hand but the thing is once you've got it out and you've. Lub did up and stuff you kind of feel obligated to carry through with it. So I actually am not leery leery of sticking my member into a battery operator operating gadget I would be leery of sticking it into well for example, on Efucked.com this week I saw.
[07:49] Keith: No, no yeah.
[07:52] Mike: I know I saw a man who was who put his penis in a running vacuum cleaner. Um, for those of you who have considered this do not do this? Ah he actually seemed to be enjoying it for a while it kind of it kind of was it was just the right diameter so he was kind of thrusting in and out and and you could see like it was.
[07:56] Keith: What.
[08:09] Keith: Aha.
[08:12] Mike: The the skin of his penis was kind of flapping back and forth a little bit like kind of moving around in an interesting way. Yeah, exactly So it was doing that for a while. But then you've by the way seen the film of the woman skydiving naked right with her labia flapping. Everyone's seen that. Okay, so um.
[08:14] Keith: Oh like when you see people skydiving.
[08:24] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah of course. Yeah, yeah.
[08:30] Mike: So similar to that. But but but then he kind of loses control of it and it kind of goes too. Deep flies too close to the sun and it looks painful. Well, the problem is that it's good as long as some error is able to pass by but then it got too much suction and I think it kind of he's like.
[08:39] Keith: What happens.
[08:50] Mike: Can't get it off and then he has to like reach up and turn it off and by the time he does I think his penis is a little distended maybe bruised so but of yeah.
[08:51] Keith: Oh God Yeah I Just don't have enough curiosity to try exotic masturbation stuff I mean I tried the what was it called the Tanga Egg or that is that what it was called.
[09:08] Mike: Yeah I think that's similar to the thing that I got mailed accidentally. Ah would you? um you wouldn't.
[09:09] Keith: It was all right I don't know. Yeah, it's just too much trouble I think.
[09:21] Mike: You wouldn't try I Mean for example, there are male male analogs of the thing that you see all over chatterbaid and camsites where a woman is. It's basically a a thing that thrusts in and out with a dilldo on it like there are male analogs of those you wouldn't try I I think I would try that out of curiosity I Just think it would be expensive.
[09:35] Keith: Um, what's the analog.
[09:38] Mike: Well, it would instead of a dildo wouldn't it just be like a so cylinder. The the point is it does the stroking for you.
[09:43] Keith: Yeah I just feel like I can do the stroking myself better.
[09:51] Mike: It's probably right I think I mean look this is this is almost certainly an area that artificial intelligence will conquer and so I I can imagine a day when I mean right now already lots of men I see them because I have to video conference with people. Somewhat often and I see men with these special. You don't have one of these right one of these special gaming chairs. You know what? I'm talking about though you see them on Twitch. Ah I I imagine there's a there will be a day when those have like some kind of attachment that you just pull around and it's just like some Ai hand like a.
[10:10] Keith: No I don't I have just a office chair. Yes, yeah, sure.
[10:25] Mike: Luke Skywalker's new hand that he gets that just fucking jerks you off and it'll be great. It'll be great and.
[10:28] Keith: Um, yeah, and it can It can maybe learn over time if you report satisfaction or something.
[10:33] Mike: I Could even have like it be like the matrix I could have some probe so it can It can tell if you're like you know you're through your brain waves or something whether you're yeah yeah.
[10:43] Keith: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, all right I Guess neither of us are interested in this device. Um, okay I promised actually at the beginning of last episode to talk about this.? Ah. Sexless Marriage Topic I'm going to I'm going to read this post right? when does sex typically stop in a marriage. My wife said to me sex is for single people in their twenty s once and I can't stop thinking about it I'm 38 and she's 34 So we only have sex about once a month I can tell what's going to get worse from here as the cadence is becoming more and more infrequent.
[11:08] Mike: Nice.
[11:19] Keith: I've asked 5 or 6 times throughout our marriage for more intimacy and I'm always met with criticism and the criticism is usually conflicting example I need more foreplay you do too much oral on me, don't touch my nipples so much now I'm convinced that I'm just not good enough at sex I talked to my therapist about it and she told me that sex changes over the course of her lives and it's okay to mourn that. I'll be honest, the idea of mourning my sexuality makes me want to panic cry is this how it's supposed to go I'm so unhappy. Um, just to clarify. Yeah, it definitely was just to clarify. We don't have kids we live alone with 2 dogs and 2 cats time is also not an issue since she has three days off a week
[11:45] Mike: I Think that was a female therapist.
[11:56] Keith: Hormones are always a factor but I'm hesitant to blame that since she seems to like her iud and I I Just don't know. Um, yeah I mean I think I haven't read the comments but typically the cobbits have like this array of things like oh you need to help with the dishes more you need to do this and that like.
[12:13] Mike: Right.
[12:16] Keith: It it sort of like rejects the premise that a woman might not want sex.
[12:20] Mike: Yeah I mean there's an there. Yeah I mean that's well I thought I remembered reading this and when and in the first comment was basically like you're screwed. Yeah basically something like this this these don't these situations don't get better.
[12:35] Keith: Yeah, the end of the yeah, the end of the first comment is but at the end of the day she may simply be L L I don't know what that means you have to decide. Oh yeah, you have to decide if what you have is what you need It wasn't for me I finally left.
[12:38] Mike: Which is what I think.
[12:44] Mike: A low libido.
[12:53] Mike: Right? Yeah I mean I think in these I think that the um, the tell in this situation is I Realize there's like a larger topic here, but the tell in this situation I think is the conflicting and nonsensical explanations and the thing about it is.
[13:07] Keith: Yes.
[13:09] Mike: I think that she probably believes the things she's saying when she says them. Ah she doesn't understand it herself. She's like you know I'm yes you like she could bring her to the therapist and she'd be like yeah I don't I don't I don't know like you could have some ah schedule you set up and she'd probably do it for a while but the problem like it's just like a fundamental problem and.
[13:14] Keith: Um.
[13:18] Keith: Right.
[13:28] Mike: I think it actually makes sense. Um, you know all of us I mean if you remember your childhood at all. You remember being say I don't know for everybody say at 10 years old. You had 0 interest in sex like I remember watching ah I remember watching the ads during a football game. When I was whatever grade fourth fifth grade and I noticed ah that the ads would sort of Zoom in on and feature women's butts a lot and I sort of knew that was important and I and I was like why why and I remember wondering I remember thinking like I don't get it like what.
[13:49] Keith: Um, yeah.
[13:57] Keith: Yes, yes.
[14:06] Mike: Why is there a fascination here and I genuinely didn't understand it and I mean what's important in that is to realize that that's a way your brain could be set up and that's what's going on here. Um, it could be that if she had a different partner. It would change it probably would Actually there's probably some you know.
[14:16] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[14:24] Mike: It's not just her. There's some inputs that would get a different output but but ah, all the yeah the to me like once once you get this this series of kind of nonsensical and mutually conflicting explanations. There's nothing you can do and she's not going to.
[14:26] Keith: Sure.
[14:43] Mike: Totally be honest, probably it'll be scary for her to be honest because like the natural result here is breaking up and she's not going to like that. So yeah.
[14:50] Keith: What percentage of like American Coastal City living marriages. Do you think are sexless in their thirty s forty s fifty S sixty s.
[15:06] Mike: Yeah I always I think the stats on this suggest this reminds me of the stats for um, for women orgasming in various numbers I think the numbers are are skewed somehow by like reporting errors or something so the numbers on this I think. Are usually like in the ten or twenty percent range I think it's like 60 I think it's much higher the but ages you said.
[15:25] Keith: If at what age. Well yeah, but I mean I'm sure there's some sort of function where it decreases over time. So like I would expect I don't know what my intuition is on this I mean I'm I'm I'm limiting it to like Coastal City Living. Marriages. So yeah, you know we're We're sort of excluding weird religious stuff and um.
[15:50] Mike: I Think weird religious stuff could actually increase it because it could it could if you're in an if you're in an environment of where that's more male dominated in some way for better or worse the guy might basically feel like he can just demand it and so then it doesn't There's there's no conversation.
[15:54] Keith: I might.
[16:03] Keith: Yeah, ok, all right? But I yeah want to I want to eliminate that from consideration anyway, so like both parties have equal accent access or ability to remove consent. Yeah, like I would guess like marriages in their thirty s I would guess something less than 50% are sexless.
[16:09] Mike: Sure sure yeah.
[16:14] Mike: Sure.
[16:22] Keith: Um, and sex list would be like you know 10 or fewer times a year I guess and then yeah in 40 s it's something lower in 50 s lower still. And yeah I mean I bet is yeah higher. Yeah sorry yeah I do at some point. Um, yeah I bet the majority.
[16:25] Mike: Okay.
[16:32] Mike: Um, you mean higher you mean higher? yeah.
[16:41] Mike: Well when the people people are in their ninety s I'm sure it's essentially a hundred percent yeah
[16:41] Keith: Ah, relationships are sexless. The majority of marriages sure right? But yeah more into a more controversial take would be yeah I I bet like after 55 the vast majority of marriages are effectively sexless.
[16:57] Mike: that that I don't have an intuition on that's probably right? That's probably right because it it my guess would yeah I don't either I would guess that it depends very strongly at that point because you take I mean yeah, first of all, let's just assume that all the ones that were before remain which is correct. They are.
[17:01] Keith: I Don't know I'm speculating.
[17:15] Mike: This this situation does not reverse. Ah I like I don't think I've ever put it this way I don't think I've ever read a story. This is why why? I say this I don't think I've ever read a story where this reversed ever and there's an entire subreddit dedicated to this and I've I've spent some amount of time in there probably like an hour or 2 or something I've actually sat and read a bunch of the thing. You never encounter stories where this reverse is. It's always like and it makes sense to me. It wouldn't reverse because what it's what's going to Change. Um I Guess Okay I guess somebody could have like an a yeah.
[17:42] Keith: This reminds me actually I did read a post about this reversing. Let me see if I have it in like an ancient spreadsheet here.
[17:49] Mike: The thing I was I was in a caveat at that I think like it it could be birth control. It could be like some sort of hormonal or drug thing. It could be somebody losing a bunch of weight. There's there's some concrete objective things. What I could see doing it but I'm very skeptical that a psychological change of heart would reverse this because it's not It's I mean. Frankly, it's to me. It's like um, whether you're gay or straight it's inbuilt and it like the kid who doesn't understand why Tv looks at women's butts. The gay guys like look I don't find women attractive well in the same way the the man or woman in this situation is just like look I just don't.
[18:22] Keith: Um, yeah.
[18:27] Mike: Like there's there's just nothing there and so like the the process you need to get into psychologically it just doesn't happen and it's kind of mysterious sort of. But yeah, anyways, you find it.
[18:28] Keith: Right.
[18:38] Keith: Yeah I found the post. Yeah, it's deleted. Unfortunately it's from seven months ago um but I can still see the subject and I remember it vaguely but not enough to actually have a coherent discussion. But I've seen this this particular thing mentioned a few times.
[18:43] Mike: Okay.
[18:56] Keith: And the subject is my wife and I just completed a thirty day sex challenge. It has saved our marriage I have heard of this a few times where people there's some book about this. Actually it might be called the 30 day challenge or something and people really make an effort for thirty days to have sex every day.
[19:01] Mike: Yeah, so.
[19:13] Keith: And so it becomes a matter of when not if and I yeah like I yeah my guess is that the partner who is less interested builds up an array of defense mechanisms. Um, you short of sort of mentioned this.
[19:33] Keith: Ah, before like she had these sort of incoherent things like I need more foreplay you do too much oral on me, don't touch my nipples so much right? like she's sort of just deploying whatever she can to sort of avoid having sex. But if you change it to when not if. Maybe for thirty days that can like build some new patterns I'm not sure. It's just this is a thing that I've seen a few times and I wish the post wasn't deleted because it it went into some detail but it's gone.
[19:58] Mike: Yeah I mean it's believable to me that that could that I mean I could imagine that first of all I suspect that in those situations, you're not actually at this extreme level in the before. Maybe you just have a couple that has a.
[20:14] Keith: Um, yeah.
[20:16] Mike: Small baby or they both have jobs or something and and the desire is not gone. This is actually like a situation. You're screwed that's being described where where one partner is just like they're just like look I don't care about this and i'm. I yeah could it happen. Yeah I could have I'm not saying it's impossible that somebody could do a 30 day challenge like that it have it fix I think it's much more likely that the 30 day challenge would just make the l l partner angry and resentful and it would just it would add badly.
[20:44] Keith: Yeah I mean in some ways it could be considered I'd be hamed him out to rape right? like you're basically forcing somebody who doesn't want to have sex with you to have sex with you thirty days in a row I'd like it.
[20:54] Mike: Well, they've presumably they're consenting I mean you know.
[21:03] Keith: Tantaout's a little bit strong but it's ah you know there, there's something there to consider.
[21:07] Mike: I mean it's it's a really different difficult situation and and and the the thing I think is that the reason I think the percentages are so high relative to what people say is just because first of all, it can be either partner does this as we've discussed before and and I think that.
[21:23] Keith: Yeah.
[21:27] Mike: Ah, for both partners as time goes on the odds that they it's 2 things 1 is that the odds they find the other person attractive or compelling are going to reduce because there's that just like they know them better and better. But secondly there there.
[21:42] Keith: Um, yeah.
[21:46] Mike: A lot of behaviors that people have that make sense to me ah sort of evolutionarily in terms of like well you need to ensnare this person have a kid and stuff like that. But then at some point it stops mattering like it that there's no,, There's no so benefit. There's no selective or um, differential benefit to to. You know, continuing to be actually like I think you could argue continuing to be aroused by your partner I think you could actually argue that there's ah the harm evolutionarily that it would be better say for the man to move on to a different woman I actually think I'm not going to bring up the taboo topic here. But I think it could make more sense for a man. Thing men do where they trade in their wife and they basically well that's a rude way of saying it but they basically get someone 20 years Younger I think that actually in some ways can make more sense because the guy's job is to spread his seed and he's finished doing it already with the one woman. So.
[22:36] Keith: Um, yeah.
[22:39] Keith: Yeah I mean yeah I just I feel like the emotional dynamics of trying to have an ethically non-monogamous. Relationship are probably. Such that it's better to just suffer in a sexless marriage. Ah but better depends like if you have children and you want to see them 100 % of the time. Yeah, you could you? it depends. What function you're trying to optimize.
[23:15] Mike: Yeah I'm not I'm not at ah this age yet. But I have ah so there are very clearly in the demographic that I see there are sort of breakpoints I mean for the most part when you have your kids in preschool. Ah, the parents are married for the most part not 100 % but or they're together regardless and there's various points at which it sort of break up I have a very strong suspicion that like there's one at the end of high school where like a lot of marriages break up because he because of exactly what you just said.
[23:36] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah.
[23:46] Keith: Yeah I think that's right right? that the downside risk of like not having access to these creatures you created is greatly mitigated.
[23:51] Mike: Yeah.
[23:58] Mike: Right? and I could imagine not even being acrimonious. Ah it to be because these people been together a really long time and they might have wrestled with things like this and just come to a conclusion that like look this is. There's no point in fighting about this anymore like you do your thing I'll do my thing and we'll be friends.
[24:13] Keith: Yeah, well and if you don't even feel physical jealousy then there's less to get worked up about anyway. All right, Let's move on. Um, okay, this person says women sometimes say to me you can do whatever you want to me and then they get disappointed when I try to cuddle Apparently do whatever you want to me.
[24:21] Mike: That's true. Yeah.
[24:26] Mike: Oh.
[24:31] Keith: Actually means I want you to read my mind and dominate me in specific ways that I like I'm a burly 6 foot 8 bearded tatted dude women assume I'm this rough Daddy Dom or something but I'm a teddy bear if you tell me I can do whatever I want I will cuddle you eat you out. Give you a massage finger you make out etc but this often disappoints women. Who say this to me who apparently expected me to to know that do whatever you want meant to choke me spank me and call me a whore. This might be a specific to me problem. But it's come up enough that I just find it odd. It's cool if you want a spanking but just say that I can't read your mind I don't want to slap you I want to hug you so. I'm a little bit confused by what his complaint here is because he says if you want me to slap you just say it which implies he's actually okay with that. But then he says that if he had his druthers. He would just cuddle them so I don't know that the setting aside like the inconsistencies here. I think he's experiencing this thing that I think pop culture has created increasingly which is yeah I think women more and more are expecting men to be quite dominant and I'm not sure if women actually prefer that or not or. Think they prefer it. Ah, do you have an opinion.
[25:51] Mike: Well, a couple things we I think we did a topic similar to this one within the last like few episodes. Um, yeah and I I remember 1 viewpoint that I encountered was that do that the man who thought that the phrase do whatever you want.
[25:53] Keith: Yeah, it's come up quite a bit.
[26:09] Mike: Was code for anal which I sort of agree with I will add that um I had a girlfriend whose code for anal was put it where it's not supposed to go which I kind of like better. So if people want to get that terminology going. Yeah I kind of liked it. Yeah.
[26:12] Keith: Ah, yeah.
[26:22] Keith: You like that euphemism now. Yeah.
[26:28] Mike: Um, it was yeah it's you know it's like saying down there or whatever Anyway, ah the in terms of what they want versus what they should want. Um I think it's tricky because ah, well they're they're. Yeah, this is ah this is a hot topic there. There's a lot of anti. Whatever you call like toxic masculinity stuff out there and so men then are reluctant to ah behave in overtly masculine ways and it makes sense that that's.
[26:53] Keith: Ah.
[27:05] Mike: What women actually want men to do for a variety of reasons but most of them are just it makes sense that it would be their programming because in prehistoric times. That's what you would be looking for as a guy who can kind of cleverly protect the family and be a good provider. Um, and so I think it is probably what they. Should 1 in that regard now you could say well ah in a modern context. Is it what they should want well I'm not sure I I actually think the answer is still yes because even in a modern context women are pretty vulnerable during their period of time when they're having kids and when the kids are small and so there is some extra expectation on the man. So getting a guy who's not yeah.
[27:43] Keith: Is is being physically aggressive in bed. Let's say you know choking and slapping For example, ah analogous to being a better protector. Like couldn't you make an argument that being I don't know sensitive and a cuddle. What does he call himself a Teddy bear ah doesn't that signal some sort of willingness to be there and protect.
[28:15] Mike: I mean it depends on what he means if he if he's smoking weed and and has his eyes roll back and he's sitting in a big easy chair. That's not as compelling than if as if he's ah like there's that there was for a while a ticktok meme of women. Ah they would.
[28:20] Keith: Um, yeah.
[28:33] Mike: They call that stitch videos of themselves with this guy who was chopping wood. He was chopping a stump and they would act like they were very impressed with that and they kind of turned them on I don't know if they really were turned on by it but I could I could see it being compelling to them. Ah so if this guy you know is out chopping wood and then comes in. You know they live in Alaska it's.
[28:39] Keith: Um, ah.
[28:52] Mike: Cold out he comes in. He takes his coat off and then cuddles with her That's probably different. Um I think that in a lot of cases. The physical abuse thing unfortunately like relates to abuse that the women have suffered really yeah past other times in life. But all that being said, um I think that.
[29:03] Keith: Past trauma.
[29:11] Mike: There's a psychological thing there where women um as long as you're not physically hurting Them. You're basically demonstrating the ways you would protect them right? So So it's kind of exciting or um, exciting. It's the wrong word. It's it's Ah. Makes them feel safe and in a curious way right? You you say oh look at all the things look what this guy could do to an intruder or somebody trying to impregnate me. Yeah.
[29:34] Keith: Yeah I Just yeah I don't know where like the bounds on this are right? So you can be so an extremely passive man in bed. So you know like somebody who you know always wants to have missionary sex not like me.
[29:49] Mike: Um, someone like you.
[29:53] Keith: Ah, and like you know, never you know leads to like change position and you know doesn't really I don't know seems shy or like like those sorts of things obviously seem unattractive.
[30:04] Mike: I have a quite hang on hang on. Okay, hang on you. You've described the pass event. What do you think is the thing you do that is the most aggressive that the you know the least like that passive man, you just described I can go first if you want.
[30:23] Keith: Um, ah yeah I guess I don't understand what you're asking. So go ahead.
[30:26] Mike: I like what what sexual behavior. Do you think you have that or do you know you have that puts you that puts you most clearly if if if you only ah if if all I knew about you was that you did all the things you just said the passive man do does. Ah, admittedly, the most passive man would be a man who doesn't even find a woman to have sex with but but let's say he does and and he does missionary and all the things you said and then but then I knew there was 1 additional thing that you did and and that's to indicate to me that you are not the passive man. What would you say and the thing that I would give is definitely. Ah, the the oral sex where you're thrusting in and out of the mouth I think for me I think I feel like that's pretty dominant and an activity that I enjoy.
[31:12] Keith: Right? Yeah I Guess Face fucking implies a sort of I mean yeah, we've talked about this many many times. But yeah I mean I feel like face fucking implies a total disregard for. Um, your partner.
[31:32] Mike: I Hear you it's you, you're you're going to you. It won't work if you try to shame me, it may I think it makes me great but let's what's your what's yours. Oh you're not.
[31:42] Keith: Ah I mean I don't know I mean like I don't like a sort of ah I don't like face fucking because I think it's sort of demeaning.
[31:54] Mike: That's fine. That's fine. What is the thing ah chief. But what's but you understand what I'm going for here is what's the what? where do you where where what do you.
[31:55] Keith: Well I don't even I don't even actually know if I don't like face fucking. It's just not something that I'm I'm interested.
[32:06] Keith: I think I can I think I can I think I can competently take the lead and guide like sexual encounters that cover an array of bases right? so.
[32:08] Mike: To show the woman that you're.
[32:15] Mike: Your your most aggressive thing is not telling her to sit on your face is it tell me it's not that.
[32:20] Keith: I Don't you don't think that's a yeah I don't think that's and I think that's sort of I don't know but that you can debate. But I think that's more submissive than anything.
[32:32] Mike: Yeah I think that's the first ah freeway exit on pegging Highway Not I think it's fine I have no problem with it. But I I think it's yeah, it's more submissive I agree with that.
[32:40] Keith: Yeah, well I mean you know the problem with with submissive stuff is that I think it can be compelling in moderation. But if you're always submissive right? and you like never take the lead in anything and you're sort of forcing the woman to.
[32:48] Mike: Short.
[32:59] Keith: Basically be in charge I think there are some women that like that I think it's like less than 5% um but
[33:07] Mike: I Think that's right I think it's It's actually somewhat uncommon. It's it's it's if they're made to do. But yeah, right, it's It's exactly this issue but it's still so you the thing you're mentioning is just the general thing of being the ah the conductor the orchestrator of the the activity. You don't have some move.
[33:20] Keith: Yeah I mean I don't think there's any other possible thing to say if I don't I mean I just haven't really experimented much with explicitly. Okay, fine I I do enjoy doggie style sex.
[33:29] Mike: Well, you could say doggy. Do. You do do is it like you flip them over you like kind of put them in that position then you do you do it vigorously. So It's kind of shows them who's boss or is it like a Teddy bear.
[33:46] Keith: Yeah I mean I think that's I mean that's sort of how it's done right? I mean I guess you could do it with a loving caress. But that's not really the Ah, that's not that's not the right? What's the what's the right word here. That's not the right? ah speed for that.
[34:02] Mike: Okay, okay so I mean that's a good 1 right? Yeah, that's a good one I think that would qualify if you said like yeah you you typically in your encounters you you you like to flip her around. So she's not facing you show her his boss a little bit. Yeah that that feels dominant to me right? Do you? You don't like.
[34:04] Keith: Position.
[34:19] Keith: Yeah I suppose.
[34:21] Mike: Ah, you don't like have her in the dog and then you like sort of crest. You know, kind of cradle her chest and bring her up to you so you can kiss her right? You keep you make sure her head stays down right.
[34:30] Keith: But didn't We didn't We have a so subject on this the other day of somebody who is like constantly trying to kiss his partner during doggie and she didn't like being contorted s like no I do not I do not don't I don't I I agree with that post. We read the few episodes ago.
[34:37] Mike: Probably you didn't answer the question though which you don't do Okay, good good. Yeah, Okay, okay.
[34:49] Keith: Were.
[34:49] Mike: I Think that qualifies like it's It's not. It's pretty vanilla but it qualifies like you. You're not in the category of that guy I don't remember why this came up by the way. Oh is just general aggressiveness top.
[34:57] Keith: Yeah, like how yeah if you don't enjoy some of the more um I don't know entry level ah aggressive things like choking or slapping or ah negative. Ah, Dirty talk. Um, yeah like how do you get like? How do you establish yourself as a capable man and.
[35:25] Mike: I Think at the most basic level the guy. Yeah, the guy needs to be orchestrating the action ah taking his pleasure. You know.
[35:33] Keith: Yes, he has to be yeah, enthusiastically taking it in a way that ah the woman feels like yes, she's yes, she's she's an object of desire of of like sort of carnal desire.
[35:36] Mike: Um, right.
[35:45] Mike: Right? Exactly exactly? Yeah I think that's right and and and so while I yeah I think there's a middle ground here. But you don't have to be slapping the person or whatever but you can ah show that you have.
[36:02] Mike: Yeah, you have a need that they're fulfilling and I think it does give her a picture also of how you would defend her in the family if necessary or something I think there's some like I think that's part of the excitement for the woman in that situation is like oh you know he's but how powerful he is yeah exactly and that's exciting to her because.
[36:14] Keith: Yeah, look at this animal.
[36:20] Mike: Yeah, you would be yeah and that's why like a very short man who is not very strong and picks his nose a lot would be less compelling just kind of a whiny little loser like that's not going to get you anymore.
[36:29] Keith: Right? Ok right? Yeah I mean but there's yeah, there's some. There's some interesting I mean I guess we already had it. But yeah, there's an interesting conversation to be had there around like yeah like how little is. How little interest in various demeaning activities is too little.
[36:54] Mike: Um, ah yeah I don't know I think yeah how how little is too little I mean you? yeah you came up with the guy that's like the absolute minimum. Um, ah.
[37:09] Mike: I think I think if I think 0 is too little I think one might be enough I think one might be enough I think if you if you like although it could get boring if your only move is to flipper around to the the dog like it might be good to have like removes.
[37:11] Keith: Sure.
[37:20] Keith: Yeah, well in it. Yeah, it depends on the woman too. Anyway, all right Let's move on. Ah this person says I've been offered sex and I denied it now I have a big regret backstory I'm a 24 year old female and was at a work party when my colleague a 22 year old male. Flirted with me the entire night after the party we went to a bar dance talked and cuddled in the couch around 3 a m he asked me to crash at his place implying he wanted to have sex I would say a 3 a m invitation to crash at his place was probably correctly read as an invitation of sex I said no.
[37:45] Mike: Here.
[37:55] Keith: And told him I was expected to be home when in reality I was afraid of the consequences resulting in a one night stand with a younger colleague and I'm not particularly interested in forming a relationship with him I'm severely regretting my decision because he's really hot and I'm completely infatuated now during work. Look over at his desk expecting him to approach me like he did at the work party but he never does how do I progress with this or have I lost my shot so I have some opinions on this but I want to hear your initial reaction.
[38:21] Mike: Well I think I think that um I lost your shot I think it's wrong. But I do think that when a guy feels like there's an opening and then the opening gets shut by the woman men are pretty most men are pretty well trained to believe that. Say Okay, well you know she has a boyfriend or there's some. There's something going on here and so she would have to and in and giving him hints wouldn't probably be sufficient in the future because she has um as explicitly reject I don't think it's that he's like butt hurt.
[38:55] Keith: Rejected him.
[38:58] Mike: I Think it's just that he thinks ok like I'm not like this is this is a waste of time and border. Yeah, and borderline like things like I mean every guy I think remembers I mean I certainly had experiences in high school or when I was a kid where I tried to talk to a girl.
[39:00] Keith: Yeah, she's not interested.
[39:16] Mike: I Can't remember specific I know this happened and like her boyfriend came up like so you know when you're in a really tight situation like ah, a high school or whatever that can happen where you actually have some sort of physical encounter and guys are kind of attued to that We don't want to be perceived by the boyfriend as or whatever as as. Going after the girl because then we could get physically injured I mean it's actually a risky thing to do and so he took it to be that and so she just needs to in a moderately non subtle way. The best thing for her to do would just be to just tell him if she can muster the courage is tell him like yeah.
[39:48] Keith: Yeah I think that's right.
[39:53] Mike: I'm interested in you I'm not dating anyone I I just was tired. Whatever give some reason you know.
[39:58] Keith: Yeah, yeah I think she just needs to clarify and she's fine I I think it's sort of interesting that like I don't think a man in this situation would ever feel Torn. He would just say yes, but because she has. Basically such copious availability to her. She could sort of afford to turn things down and and and yeah and that yeah, all she has yeah go ahead.
[40:27] Mike: I think that I think would you? Well yeah, there is some rate of men. Well yeah, so let's say men who are single that aren't in a you know don't haven't made some commitment or something to somebody that would turn down like easy sexual opportunity. Assuming they aren't sick or have diarrhea or something. It's extremely low I mean it's It's ah um, it's certainly in the single digit percent. It's very very low. So yeah and whereas for a woman. It's kind of high and so the guy's going to make ah all kinds of assumptions. He doesn't want to be rude doesn't want to get hurt now.
[40:51] Keith: Right? right.
[41:03] Keith: Right? Yeah I mean there's the work thing that's complicating this? Um, okay, well you basically had the take that I had so.
[41:07] Mike: I Had a yeah I had I had a woman that I met at a job. This is not the one that used to come over and get under my desk and blow me that was kind of gross. She knew it after hours. It was weird.
[41:22] Keith: Right? Yeah, you mentioned that.
[41:25] Mike: I Mean it's fine. It was nice to be able to send somebody in I am and they just come over and it's like all right? but ah, this is not her but this is another one and she was clearly we hit it off. She's very clearly very interested and I learned that she had a boyfriend in the office and so I was actually in the situation where ah. It was tricky and I actually I managed to get her to break up with him I did it? yeah.
[41:49] Keith: Did you? Why did you want her? did you want her to do that. Did you was she not interested in hooking up with you because she had a boyfriend. Okay.
[41:56] Mike: Um, yeah.
[42:00] Mike: That's right, Yeah, she said things like well she was sort of evasive. It was that yeah she was evasive about her reasoning and then ultimately I said oh I I know what's going on. You have a boyfriend she said yes and he worked sorry I didn't maybe I didn't say this he worked there and then what I did is I just I.
[42:08] Keith: Right? yeah.
[42:15] Mike: I Don't know how I knew enough about his background and I just started making fun of him and I successfully like destroyed her her person her view of him and became you know was more compelling and that was a successful strategy So that great.
[42:22] Keith: Um, right? Okay now how long did you entertain this woman after she had broken off her relationship with this other man.
[42:37] Mike: Ah, so this job did not last long. It was very short and so when I finished the job I did actually it was one of the jobs I had where I stopped showing up. Ah, ah.
[42:44] Keith: Aha.
[42:53] Keith: The ah.
[42:55] Mike: That's not exactly right I did that later this was earlier but it was not the way I quit was not was abrupt. Ah, but ah, that marked sort of the the end for the most part so it was it was only ah like three months
[43:10] Keith: Okay, all right? Well, that's better than three days which is what I thought it may have been.
[43:12] Mike: Maybe 4 Yeah I don't know how long she'd been dating that other guy. No no I didn't do that it was I would I don't no I wouldn't have I don't think I would have been willing to expend the effort and also it is a little risky I mean when you when you start trying to break up someone I probably should not have done that right. Was actually a bad idea because there are all kinds of crappy things that could have happened but I I just needed to I was like I got to get in there. It was worth worth.
[43:40] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, all right? Let's move on this topic is one that we've covered ah several times but it particularly bothered me the comments in particular bothered me so I'm going to read it.
[43:43] Mike: Yeah.
[43:55] Mike: Um, yes.
[43:56] Keith: Boyfriend says he isn't horny after he finished therefore does not want to help me finish got into an argument with my boyfriend this evening after we had sex he finished and I did not during p I v I wanted to orgasm so I put his hand down there hoping you would finish the job. He was quite unenthusiastic about it. So I took his hand away and told him it's ok. Then brought up how I feel like sometimes my pleasure doesn't matter. He said he isn't horny after he orgasms it doesn't feel like finishing me at that point he said he wants to pleasure me but ideally it would come before him but ideally I would come before him so he doesn't have to do anything after he comes because at that point he is tired my perspective on this is that it's is that'ss bullshit. And makes me feel like my pleasure doesn't matter as long as he gets his then the goal has been reached and I'm shit out of luck if I don't finish before him. It would be nice to not have to ask for pleasure and to not have to advocate for my pleasure. It always I always make sure he is satisfied and I find it quite unfair that my satisfaction is subjective. Tried to bring this up in a way that wouldn't be hurtful because the sex between us is passionate and it is satisfying I guess I just wish he was more enthusiastic about satisfying me even after he finishes I know I'm trying to control things that are out of my control but I just want to see what everybody's thoughts are on this any suggestions on how I can approach a subject matter. Any advice? Um, well let me read a couple of these comments that bothered me because yeah I know after I come my horny levels drop like crazy. So I always pleasure. My wife first.
[45:18] Mike: Draw.
[45:27] Keith: Just makes the most sense if your partner isn't interested in that then they suck and you should find someone who does care about your pleasure. Um, yeah, that's a problem but really common the typical solution if the guy wasn't being a total asshole. It is to not allow piv until after you've been satisfied then it's his turn. But it seems like dumping a sorry ass out on the street is the best solution here. Um that it goes on In fact, those those 2 are like 2 of the more tame ones. But yeah, this notion that like she should break up with him because he's not horny after he comes is preposterous. Um.
[45:46] Mike: The.
[46:02] Mike: It's particularly preposterous in light of if you if you reverse the roles in a certain way. These people would all exactly say the opposite right? If you said oh the woman is money.
[46:03] Keith: Ah, you.
[46:08] Keith: Well, right? and that is setting aside that's setting aside the like hormonal and chemical differences between men and women right? So like after a woman comes she doesn't immediately fall off a cliff of horniness like men do. But yeah, even setting that aside go ahead.
[46:20] Mike: Oh sure, Let's say a woman a woman who is not horny when she's on her period say and the guy is like I want you to give me a hand job and she's like I don't want to. They would be very supportive I mean and I think I think in that case because it's There's a definable very clear.
[46:30] Keith: Um, right.
[46:39] Mike: Time frameme. We're not talking about like something that lasts forever. It's going to create a dead bedroom. We're talking about for the guy something that's going to last 20 minutes or something that what the the ah and although he may even after that he may not feel like it but that it'll be a little different than.
[46:42] Keith: Um.
[46:57] Mike: I Don't think that him I think he communicated poorly about this saying that he's tired is not that doesn't help a woman understand what's going on I think ah I was trying to think of an analogy while you were saying or you know talking it's it's something like a better way to understand it for a woman is something like. You know if you if if you've ever been if you've ever gotten like general Anesthesia ah, where they have you count down from 10 and you put something in your arm and then like something profoundly changes about you. It's It's more like that that he's had some drug injected injected into him that really makes it not. Very fun to do it. He can physically do it. It's not that he can't It's just it really It really isn't very fun. Um, and so saying it's not that he's tired. That's that's a bad communication if he was just tired that would actually be less of a good argument right.
[47:48] Mike: It would still be an argument but it'd be less compelling.
[47:51] Keith: Right? Yeah I mean we've been through this before I mean it's it's there is a massive asymmetry and experience and I do agree that if um.
[48:07] Keith: I mean yeah I think it's just a numbers thing here right? So like if you're never orgasming because he's always coming first and then just giving up that's particularly bad if you're orgasming some x percent of the time and then we can negotiate what x is I think that's sort of normal and then if you're. Orgasming you know some material amount more than x. You should sort of I don't know consider yourself lucky. But yeah I think women generally should aim to orgasm before the mandos I think that's just a better way for things and then when that's not achieved when that's not achieved then.
[48:37] Mike: I mean did did.
[48:44] Keith: Yeah, some amount of the time. The man can sort of like roll up his sleeves and go to work. But it's not going to be that pleasurable for him and women should try to keep that in mind.
[48:56] Mike: Yeah, the ah a couple things I know I'm I'm well aware that there's some sort of old aphorism that men the thing men like is naked women or whatever and the thing that women like is making men do things they don't want to do. I'm aware of that kind of concept and maybe maybe here she gets off. You know it's a little like yeah she gets off on making him you know finger her or diddle her when he's totally not in the mood because he just orgasmed but I don't think I think in general both the genders. It's much more fun for them during sex for the other person to be into it just in the same way that it bothers you because you don't you have difficulty believing or understanding that a woman could be aroused and enjoy giving you a blow. Um, that's a turnoff for you because you've convinced yourself. This couldn't be compelling now. Ah. It would be a turnout for any man. Ah, if the woman clearly wasn't into it. Let's say there was something about your penis that made it smell the add or something but you then know, well not for any man I know there's like German Shia porn but as setting that aside for the most part men would not like that and I would think that the woman once she understands how.
[49:59] Keith: Ahaft.
[50:09] Mike: And compelling This is actually that would be a pretty big turn off for her and so it's not just ah for the guy's benefit. Um, it's It's for the woman's benefit and I'm aware that there are situations like the gay male situation where women become women too become less or much less aroused After. Orgasm and I don't have a good solution there which is why I've never really understood what gay men do in that regard I think I think one of them has to hold his nose and take the nut.
[50:32] Keith: Yeah, there's like a yeah I think so too that seems like a pretty annoying part of gay relationships.
[50:41] Mike: You could with gay with if you're gay you could in principle just have another guy like you could have a daisy chain of men right? and so you would by the time but of course yeah so I'm setting aside having a fee to to a 2 person relationship. But if you got up to enough men.
[50:59] Keith: The the first man has refracted and he can yeah.
[51:01] Mike: Then it would be okay because you could make a circle. Yes, so if it takes say 20 minutes to refract and it takes safe 5 minutes to get someone to orgasm. Perhaps you only need 4 men. Yeah so that could be a solution that he could offer he could offer her these say look if we were in an m f f.
[51:10] Keith: Yeah, you've you've you've solved it like.
[51:20] Mike: Situation. Well, you could have the other woman give you oral that would be kind of a compelling solution.
[51:23] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we should move on but I wanted to mention something I've heard from 3 different women that after listening to our spiel on this about how ah the experience of. Pleaasuring a woman after the man has orgasmed is not super great. Um, yeah I've heard 3 different women and Allie included that yeah that was sort of like a surprising thing to them or they didn't like fully understand that and now that they understood it. It actually.
[51:57] Keith: Makes the experience of a man trying after his orgasms like less compelling because they know that they're just pretending at that point.
[52:05] Mike: Yes, it's like watching performative porn. Um, and it also is probably a a little bit of a decoder ring for them to understand some potentially confusing experiences they had in the past where they thought oh he just doesn't like me or he's just a user and it's like not exactly he.
[52:06] Keith: Right.
[52:14] Keith: Yes.
[52:21] Mike: He might like you plenty. He just doesn't like you for the next twenty minutes he yeah he's okay with you but he he won he doesn't want to play with your vagina.
[52:21] Keith: Um, right right.
[52:28] Keith: Right? And if somebody is doing that like I mean it could be a great sign if they're like doing that a ton. But I yeah I don't know if it's long term sustainable without him building up some resentment at least.
[52:43] Mike: I Just yeah I Just don't think it's better. It's good for either of them because she yeah, she's not yeah so.
[52:46] Keith: I Agree Yeah, all right? Let's move on all right? This person says my boyfriend thinks all attempts at intimacy is me trying to initiate sex I do have a way higher libido than my partner but after a few talks. It's not been an issue I understand his knees and I feel he understands mine right up until recently.
[52:55] Mike: Hi.
[53:04] Keith: Both got very unwell I ended up in hospital for a couple of weeks and when I got out I went to go to visit family for a bit as I was already as it was already planned when I got back I was still ill and he has sustained a gym injury which meant we'd had very little want or ability to have sex for about a month which was never happened before in a relationship It's always been an agreement that there is no pressure to maintain regular sex of sex if we're ill so I'm not sure if it's because he's missing it. But every time I try to kiss him. He assumes I'm trying to initiate sex. There's nothing inherently wrong with this I'm the sort of person who's always up for it. But sometimes I just want to kiss and cuddle I don't want him thinking I'm always trying to turn it into something more. Any advice is appreciated I feel. It's messing with our intimacy levels because I know he's not wanting sex multiple times a week but he's assuming every time I kiss him that I'm trying to lure him to bed. So I've stopped kissing and cuddling so he's not under as much pressure. Okay, yeah, so I thought this was interesting because I think in most adult long term. Monogamous relationships. Actually forget the monogamous part. Ah yeah, people expect that if you initiate hooking up. It's going to lead to sex like I'm not sure her partner is sort of. Yeah don't think he's acting out of pocket here I think his expectation that if she starts trying to make out with him that she expects to have sex.
[54:28] Mike: I Think that the genders on this complaint or or this type of situation usually would be reversed. Um, and I guess that's kind of obvious um I think this is a really really common I Know this is a really really common female complaint that essentially so the thing you said ah are.
[54:34] Keith: Um, yeah.
[54:46] Mike: Two and a half female listeners might have slammed down their phones because I think they would view this as we have more than two and a half I was kidding but they ah they would view this as ah, you not understanding that like this is a real problem that women face that they want intimacy that doesn't always lead to sex. And it's annoying to them to and I actually don't really have a good solution for this but it's annoying that a man will view. Essentially I think that frequently the way this works is a man views. Um, the.
[55:24] Mike: You know trying to Kiss or whatever caress her as a question and if she reciprocates Okay, well then he's going to have an orgasm So basically like she has to make this really abrupt decision and I think that that is a thing that in a good ah relationship with good communication.
[55:34] Keith: Um, yeah.
[55:43] Mike: Could be solved I know there are so and so now when I'm talking and while I'm talking there are some solutions people have like for example, ah the the partner who has this feeling like say the woman in the situation I'm describing but it would be the man in the Southern one has something they do with their appearance to indicate whether they're up for sex like they wear a.
[55:53] Keith: Yeah. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I've I've heard about this? yeah.
[56:01] Mike: Particular color headband or some just some Bs they do and I actually think that's yeah, that's kind of an interesting idea because then you can take the pressure off. Um, but it also would be useful to have a way and I'm not sure what this would be. It could be just just talking or saying something but have a way to communicate I'm just. Doing this to cuddle or whatever to have like a moment of intimacy and I'm not trying to initiate and like this is a problem generally.
[56:28] Keith: Yeah I mean this feels like it could easily be solved by just having open communication. Um.
[56:36] Mike: It's by the way 1 interesting thing that that that that one one one ironic or not 1 1 element that's sort of a twist to this is that you'll often see women who say ah oh I want you know for play throughout the day. Sex should last sex should start in the morning and then only you know so he should be teasing me and stuff well one of the difficulties with that. It's an interesting idea that he should be sort of you know, whatever kissing you or caressing you like sort of getting you in the mood all day I'm not sure it actually works that way I actually think it kind of doesn't but there's another problem which is that.
[56:54] Keith: Aha.
[57:11] Mike: Ah, in many cases if the guy starts to do that in the morning she's going to reject him because she thinks oh well I don't want to have sex right now. So then there's like another another like wrinkle to that that the thing that she says that many women say they want and I guess in this case, it might be the man who's saying he wants it. Maybe he wants more foreplay is ah.
[57:17] Keith: Right.
[57:30] Mike: Is directly made impossible by their by this by this dynamic. Yeah.
[57:38] Keith: Yeah.
[57:45] Keith: I Just yeah I remember I've been in relationships where ah I was not super interested in my partner anymore and I found there. Like I Yeah I found like anything that they did to be sort of um risky because I didn't want to. So Yeah I felt like shutting down the kissing would save having to do a more flagrant shutdown later if they were indeed.
[58:16] Mike: First.
[58:19] Keith: Trying to initiate sex and so yeah, like I would erect defense mechanisms to avoid like basically all forms of intimacy but that of course exacerbates the problem because yeah, like my partner sometimes they didn't actually want sex. They just wanted to like have some sort of like physical connection. And I was avoiding all of it and so that wasn't That's a not so Great. Pattern.
[58:44] Mike: It is I mean it's definitely indicative indicative that there's some deeper problem in the relationship. Did you ever do anything is there any like really aggressive thing you did did you ever like let yourself go and stop showering or ah. Wear dirty clothes spill marinara sauce all over your t-shirt.
[59:00] Keith: Hide in the other room. Yeah um, start saying misogynist things. No yeah I don't know it becomes subtle and sort of subconscious I thought it was interesting.
[59:04] Mike: But did you I mean or or was it always just is it Always just you would sort of like what what was your go to way to stop it would you push her away or.
[59:16] Keith: Ah, in the earlier thread we were talking about where the woman said the various excuses she had about not liking the way that other guy was initiating like he wasn't doing 4 play enough or whatever it was and yeah you brought up this notion like she actually believes what she's saying. She's not aware that she's deploying these sort of elaborate. Flairs and and chaff to avoid having sex and I feel like it was probably that way for me like I didn't know the things I was doing to sort of avoid.
[59:37] Mike: Right.
[59:43] Mike: But what would you I mean do would you say hey honey you don't tick my balls right? or like how would you? What would you say? okay.
[59:48] Keith: No I think I was more self-aware than her but there would always be some sort of reason man that's brutal. That's a mean 1
[59:59] Mike: Your your breasts are hanging too low a day honey I Actually don't I don't know what a guy I don't I'm not ah in yeah, I'm not in this situation but I don't know what I actually have a hard time imagining what you what you might say other than just like I'm too busy I don't have time for this like oh I'm about you know. Acting kind of irritated that I could understand but anything more subtle I'm not sure.
[01:00:18] Keith: Yeah, yeah, it's been a while since I was doing this and so I don't I don't remember for sure. But yeah, it would probably be be avoidant and sort of distant and. Yeah.
[01:00:37] Mike: You could like wear like 30 pairs of underwear I'd be like um, what's that story like the hats Bartholomew's hats so you you know you she you're starting to disrobe and you just keep having to take underwear off and eventually she's just like forget it.
[01:00:43] Keith: Move from.
[01:00:50] Keith: She just gets bored.
[01:00:53] Mike: Like I don't know why you're wearing 30 pairs of underwear teeth. But obviously this is something weird going on here. Just be a signal I like I generally like that idea of having ah of the availability signal. It's not something that I've deployed in my personal life but it's something I've seen and thought oh that's kind of interesting a passive signal particularly for a woman. It's a way.
[01:00:59] Keith: Ah, yeah.
[01:01:12] Mike: Yeah, it's like it's like a nice passive thing. A woman can do that does not require her to be sort of aggressive and assuming she deploys it like I don't know a few times a month that's cool like it seems like a really good way to like enable the guy to to navigate this.
[01:01:25] Keith: Um I just I just feel like like let's say there's like some ring she wears I just feel like every time she wears the ring. She'll like immediately get pounced on maybe not but that that would be my concern.
[01:01:33] Mike: I don't think so I mean like I don't think I would do that I don't think I would do that I think I would be like oh i' like I think I would be kind of fun. You'd be like oh this is Goingnna be cool and it would just make that day more fun because you could sort of then you could like do some of the for place stuff. You'd be like oh you like you'd know that you had a little more upper hand.
[01:01:44] Keith: Um, yeah.
[01:01:50] Keith: Um, right? Oh that's an interesting point. Yeah I mean her experience. Yeah.
[01:01:52] Mike: It's an interesting. It's an interesting idea. Yeah maybe I will deploy it. It's a it's a compelling idea.
[01:02:00] Keith: Your experience Her experience might be like annoyance if you didn't pounce though right? they're saying there's some tricky psychological stuff there.
[01:02:06] Mike: Oh yeah, no, you would be required to at some point and so that would be probably part of the conversation. But but ah, you could have some conversation about like how long it is to be. You know how how long the window is so.
[01:02:15] Keith: Right? right? All right? We're up over an hour here so that'll do it for episode 104 of your mileage may vary. You could reach us at Ymmvpod on Twitter or at ymmvpod at Gmail.com it's also the place to ask us questions if you do ask us a question. Let us know if we can use it on the air or I guess yeah, let us know if you don't want us to use it on the air by default we'll assume we can and if you send us feedback. We pay $10 for any feedback we receive so just give us your venmo or. Paypal or whatever it is. We sincerely appreciate. You giving us the benefit of the considerable doubt and making it through an entire episode here and we hope to catch you next week on your mileage may vary.