Your Mileage May Vary: Polyamory in the Real World: Lust Life Love

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:01] Mike: I'm here with Stephanie Sellers who has written and starred in the film lust life love stephanie are you with us great. Why don't you tell us a little bit about about the film about yourself sort of how this came about.
[00:07] Stephanie: I am.
[00:15] Stephanie: Yeah, so I am a writer filmmaker and performing artist actress singer and and less life. Love is a film. About a bisexual polyamorous woman who falls for a monogamous married man and discovers that. Ah, her chosen lifestyle has more challenges than she thought and so I ah the the film was inspired by my personal experience with polyamory and non-monoggamy and. I started writing the screenplay while I was in film school in the graduate film program at Columbia University and um, and yeah I knew I wanted to to make a movie about this subject because it is. Always fascinated me and then it's it's been a passion of mine and I've lived it and I haven't seen polyamrian no monomy portrayed in film or on tv in a way that felt really authentic to to my experience at least.
[01:44] Stephanie: And oh yeah, it was often from an outsider perspective and just like sensationalized or or either sensationalized or just ah, kind of skewing toward the the negative side of of The. Lifestyle like showing how you know fucked up people can be in this. Ah, but even though that does happen in the film and my in um, my my story. It's.
[02:10] Mike: Sure.
[02:21] Stephanie: You know it's rooted in in in truth and in real experience.
[02:27] Mike: Yeah, so I I as I told you before we started recording I've watched it I guess one and a half times and that's mostly because there were some scenes I wanted to revisit I really found it compelling. Um and basically the first thing I wrote in my notes here is. And you've answered it I think is to the extent to which it's auto biographical I didn't realize when I was watching it that you um, played the the main character of Veronica in the film which is which is really cool is I mean to what extent is the movie autobiographical. It sounds like a significant extent.
[02:53] Stephanie: Um, others.
[02:57] Stephanie: Yeah I mean the basic storyline is but it's heavily fictionalized so it's inspired by a time in my life when.
[03:02] Mike: Okay.
[03:08] Stephanie: I was solo polyamorous where I I had um multiple relationships but no primary relationships private sorry no primary relationship I had multiple partners that all knew about each other and I felt very confident and ah.
[03:15] Mike: Okay.
[03:28] Stephanie: Safe doing that and then I I did meet a guy who was ah married and had no experience of no monogamy at all, but he was fascinated by me and very curious in his marriage. Was on the rocks and he was in this weird Um, don't ask don't tell situation with his wife and so you know that's that's the premise that the film is based on so that's all true and then. In terms of the specificity of the characters. It is ah and and the scenes that take place. Um, you know that some of the characters are like amalgams of.
[04:18] Stephanie: Ah, few people I've known or had experiences with so it's not just based on one person. Um, and yeah.
[04:24] Mike: Got it so the um, the primary sort of um this this this married guy that that that the primary character um ah meets up with is named Daniel in the film and so just so our listeners know I'm talking about because I'll probably use his name.
[04:33] Stephanie: Um, yeah.
[04:36] Stephanie: For her. Love.
[04:42] Mike: And um, so okay, so that's that's something you experience and he it's it seemed like is that that that he wasn't in a don't ask don't tell situation until you met him or until you're until the Veronica character met him is that right? like he was basically unhappy or not sort of like. They were sort of celibate in their marriage and then you know he he meets this character and um, he sort of introduces the lifestyle to his wife and she's she responds in the way I think actually I actually thought I found that scene extremely believable where she she didn't say no.
[05:03] Stephanie: Um, yeah.
[05:18] Stephanie: Um, ah I love.
[05:20] Mike: But she basically said I'm not interested at all in this. Ah what? what was your? what was your thinking as you wrote that I mean is that have you experienced that that someone reacting that way.
[05:30] Stephanie: Ah, yeah, a few of my former partners at the the time when I met the guy who inspired Daniel um, the had. Most of my partners did not were not interested in in dating other people and I think that's why it's felt so safe to me because I had there was no challenge to me and I and it there was you know 1 partner who. Did inspire one of the other characters in the film. Um, ah mexican lover pedro in the film. Um, the partner that that.
[06:06] Mike: Brain.
[06:14] Stephanie: That character was based on actually did have a girlfriend in Mexico but it didn't feel threatening to me because she was far away in Mexico and he wasn't with anyone else in New York and anyway, so um, that scene that you're pointing out. Yeah, actually now I forgot. That that we um, you know change change the chronology so like in my actual experience of the man who inspired Daniel was already in that arrangement with his wife when I met him. But.
[06:48] Mike: Got it huh.
[06:52] Stephanie: When you're when you're you're making a movie when you're you're adapting um real experience into a narrative that works dramatically on screen. You have to change some of the facts and of course you know there's no reason for me to.
[07:02] Mike: Sure.
[07:11] Stephanie: To stick to the facts because it's I'm not making a documentary and making a I made a narrative film not a documentary. So yeah.
[07:19] Mike: Sure so yet 1 1 thing that I noticed there was that the the Veronica talks a lot about boundaries basically having very clear sets of rules that you know that being ah a really important element of maintaining that lifestyle so it can so it can work.
[07:31] Stephanie: Um, so love.
[07:37] Mike: For everybody which makes sense to me and however, ah in the sort of initial scene where Daniel and Veronica first sort of become physically intimate. It seems like she's sort of changes her mind or like doesn't decides that that's not.
[07:38] Stephanie: Um, and.
[07:54] Mike: Yeah I mean like was that your intention to sort of show that the bet that there's some issue with boundaries or like it. It's difficult to maintain them if you're in a situation where you're very attracted to somebody.
[08:04] Stephanie: Yes, yeah, right is Veronica breaks 1 of her agreements that she has with her girlfriend. Ah and is right.
[08:15] Mike: And so does Daniel actually because he's his wife does not know he's going to do that.
[08:21] Stephanie: That's right, He's technically technically cheating. Actually they both are cheating this in in different ways. He's cheating and in the monogamous and that you know the monogamous version of cheating and and she she cheats in the in the poly version.
[08:23] Mike: Right.
[08:35] Mike: Right? And well and presumably. There's actually a third element of cheating going on I think which would be that she doesn't actually want to be with a guy who's not being honest with his partner isn't that right? okay.
[08:43] Stephanie: Um, ah.
[08:46] Stephanie: Right? Yeah, that that is right? because yeah, she's all about honesty and you it does it. She feels bad. You know it? um. Being the one with whom he is cheating like you know that that does not feel good to her that brings up by guilt and like you know there's something not right about that.
[09:15] Mike: Okay, well so so that brings up for me a question about so my my cohost actually is not who's not here. He's in central america still Keith has been in an ethically nonmonoggaous monogamous relationship before he was in 1 pretty recently and. Essentially what he came to conclude was that it basically meant monogamous because he actually tried to um, be honest with people with with potential. He's he's a heterosexual man and he tried to. Be honest with potential partners and basically as soon as he was honest about his relationship status. They became uninterested in him which sort of makes sense to me because they were predominantly going to be interested. I mean you know they're interested in a monogamous situation typically and so he wants. He's honest about his situation. It becomes really difficult and so his his take was like well.
[09:57] Stephanie: Are.
[10:05] Stephanie: Perhaps.
[10:10] Mike: This can never work because well that's too strong but like he got a sense that it could never work because of that I'm curious if you have you have thoughts on that.
[10:11] Stephanie: Her.
[10:18] Stephanie: Yeah, well I mean it depends on where you're looking to find partners if you're looking or just meeting people. You know by chance if it. Yeah if you're looking um you know there are there are dating apps with.
[10:27] Mike: Like dating apps.
[10:36] Stephanie: Poly options or like dating apps that are specifically for people like people looking for non-monogamous relationships. So I mean that's the first thing to just know where you know yards don't like bark up the wrong tree.
[10:53] Mike: Got it. He's sort of fishing in the wrong pond to to? yeah okay, that's interesting. Um, so I mean that yeah I mean in the the film depicts and and your and on your website which we're going to link in the show notes. Ah where people can go to watch the film. Um.
[10:55] Stephanie: Yes, Ah, yeah.
[11:10] Mike: You mention some clubs in New York City and there's 1 depicted in the film several times I think it's the same club each time is that right.
[11:17] Stephanie: Yeah, there are 2 depicted in the film. The more like parties not clubs. Yeah.
[11:23] Mike: Okay, there was There is a club though right? if I forget the name of it. Um, do you remember the name of the club in the film chemistry. That's it.
[11:28] Stephanie: Well, there's chemist chemistry is the is the one where Veronica and Daniel first meet and that's the first the first party seen very early on in the film that it's ah it's a real party and the and the the organizers.
[11:35] Mike: Okay.
[11:47] Stephanie: Ah, wanted me to use the name of their event. They they like the promotion they don't they didn't like I told them I because originally in the script I had ah I had a different name for the event and and yeah, and.
[12:00] Mike: Okay I see.
[12:06] Stephanie: They actually like no you can use our name and they and they helped out with the production design of those party scenes we actually shot them in a space where parties have taken place with. All of their mattresses and props and um even down to the the signs posted on the walls saying like consent is sexy and don't don't you know, no means know and things like that all theirs. And so there's there's like a documentary element in in that aspect of the film.
[12:41] Mike: Okay, so you that's really interesting to me because I mean the thing I was going to ask you is like is is is his is like that is that a realistic portrayal and you're basically saying it's like. More than more than realistic. It's it basically is real which is super interesting I mean the the first pass thing I think when I see something like that is well isn't there okay isn't there. Some first of all issue with way more men wanting to come to something like that than women and some kind of.
[12:59] Stephanie: Absolutely.
[13:13] Stephanie: Forever.
[13:18] Mike: I Don't know issue with the attractiveness of the people. The relative attractiveness some kind of gap there of the people that come like the people and the people that you depicted in the in the movie are pretty attractive like it seems like ah it's surprisingly so from my perspective but but maybe I've got it all wrong. So I'm curious your thoughts.
[13:21] Stephanie: More house.
[13:28] Stephanie: Um, um.
[13:35] Stephanie: Yeah, that's a great question. Ah, most of these parties and um I've been to a lot of different different parties in the New York area and.
[13:49] Stephanie: And they all do some kind of screening have some kind of screening process or membership deal where and a lot of them that are catered more toward. Couples like male female couples where the female's usually bisexual. They there's an application process chemistry as a questionnaire that you have to fill out you have to send photos but I don't think they are.
[14:11] Mike: Okay.
[14:24] Stephanie: They don't really judge by looks so much. It's more about your attitude and your intention your um, just your intelligence about relationships and sexuality and um.
[14:24] Mike: Okay.
[14:42] Stephanie: So It's either a questionnaire and or or or yeah submitting photos. You know, ah some parties may be more interested In. You know, maybe more discerning about looks than others or um. But most of them most that I've attended and that I enjoy are the ones that are more interested in in intentionality and attitude and respect and. You know, just want to weed out people who are just looking to get laid. You know who don't really understand anything about.
[15:18] Mike: You think you can do that with you think you can do that with a questionnaire I mean I guess I mean from the first pass thought I have is that requiring it to be a couple would be extremely effective there. But I mean I think that if you opened it if you allowed single men I mean I'm a I'm a guy so I feel like I can I can attack my own gender here like if you allowed.
[15:27] Stephanie: For her.
[15:33] Stephanie: There who? yeah.
[15:38] Mike: Single men or just men to apply as a by themselves that I think you would it would be really hard to screen them out because there'd be this whole like subreddit dedicated to how do you? you know, get into this club.
[15:45] Stephanie: Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's It's really tricky and chemistry they have dealt with this by having different tiered prices for. Couples versus singles like single men are not single men are not really permitted to come like single men must have a be accompanied by a woman So A single man can go with a friend. You don't even have to be sexual with that person. Um.
[16:23] Stephanie: The price for a single female is much lower than the couple price. Ah.
[16:28] Mike: I mean that's somehow the like that makes sense to me like I'm I'm thinking rationally like I mean I was the one you just said you would be inundated with people. But I mean it it runs it runs counter currentrent a little bit to the notion of polyamory right? I mean you're basically so you're admitting that you're admitting that there is 1 gender.
[16:36] Stephanie: Um, ah.
[16:43] Stephanie: Um, yes.
[16:47] Stephanie: And it's it's I've always had trouble with this and because party not not to not to judge chemistry or any like parties that operate in this way. But.
[16:47] Mike: That would inundate such a place. First.
[17:06] Stephanie: My experience is that there's less diversity. There's less gender and sexual diversity at parties that operate in that way I am more drawn to because I am a queer woman bisexual I I am.
[17:14] Mike: And.
[17:23] Stephanie: Drawn to more queer events where there um there are men who are not ah, not intimidated by men playing with each other or that you know what? what? regardless of what how what their orientation is.
[17:35] Mike: Right.
[17:41] Stephanie: Or um, you know, ah parties that have more queer Queer couples or singles or you know just like a more diverse range of of people like sexually and genderwise. Um, and there. Yeah.
[17:56] Mike: Is your in your go ahead I was going to ask if if in your experience with that sort of a situation if if this issue I describe maybe maybe that having that orientation. Um filters out folks just because people are more likely to understand what the point of the party is and then.
[18:11] Stephanie: Yeah, there yeah there another there are some other parties that I've attended that are more open to anyone like they don't have the tiered pricing. They have 1 single prize for everyone.
[18:14] Mike: Self self filterlter is that kind of a thing that happens.
[18:29] Stephanie: And oddly it ironically it it it has it's it hasn't led to like too many straight men showing up so like it's all like all the rules and restrictions that certain parties impose.
[18:43] Mike: Um.
[18:48] Stephanie: In order to avoid the problem of too many men has actually been avoided by lifting that restriction up the risk the tiered pricing and and the ah you know single like.
[18:57] Mike: Um, lifting which restriction I see.
[19:07] Stephanie: No single men can come I've been to other parties that are open to to it doesn't matter. You can come as a single you can come as a couple at the same price and they've been more diverse and queer in my experience.
[19:22] Mike: Yeah, the first task past thing that comes to my mind is that when you advertise or advertise is probably the wrong word. But when when it's when it's known that a situation is going to be queer friendly that might basically be like kind of kryptonite for a lot of straight men just realistically.
[19:35] Stephanie: Um, yeah, and I also think that the more couple oriented parties are ah I think they.
[19:48] Stephanie: Market More they do more marketing and promotion. Um like they've been written about they've had you know media coverage whereas. So so people who who are are have don't have much experience with Nonmonoggamy It's a couple that just starting to open up their relationship.
[19:49] Mike: Who.
[20:08] Stephanie: They're more likely to find those parties So that's why you know those parties continue to ah operate in that way and they tend to draw the same.
[20:09] Mike: That makes sense.
[20:24] Stephanie: Types of couples and more more inexperienced people which is another problem but the the parties that are more open tend to be more underground and word of mouth. No yeah.
[20:26] Mike: That makes sense sure.
[20:37] Mike: That makes sense. Yeah I Assume the issues that come up are things like boundaries consent rules things like that. Yeah, um, so obviously you've done a ton of thinking about um this this area in general and I'm curious if you've drawn any conclusions about.
[20:43] Stephanie: Yeah.
[20:54] Mike: Kind of what lies at the heart I Mean do you view this as sort of a lifestyle. Do you view it as an orientation is this something that you ah you personally or people that do this were bound to do because it's something that's within them or is it a choice and and sort of what do you think lies at the heart of of of that we you know. If. It's a choice then it's like well what?? what? What moveates that choice if it's not a choice Well then I guess there's nothing at the heart of it. It's just sort of nature. But I'm just curious your thoughts there. Okay.
[21:19] Stephanie: Yeah I all of the above I think it's I think it's nature and nurture. It's it's something that it that exists within an individual this. Desire to be with more than 1 person to explore sexually um and then and then um and then the nurture of you know, access to the resources to.
[21:54] Stephanie: In order to be able to do it. Um, whether or not it's a choice so that's with a choice. Yeah,, that's where the choice part comes in so that just because a desire is there if there if there aren't any resources or. If someone is stuck in a small town somewhere and doesn't you know have a community where they can connect with other like-minded people who are non-monogamous. Um I'm sure they they could find it online right.
[22:28] Mike: Sure.
[22:31] Stephanie: but but um in terms of having actual experiences physical experiences then a lot of it has to do with you know, knowing knowing where to look knowing how to connect and there there are a lot of um. Events in New York City that are not sexual but they're more like social events where you can connect with other poly people or kinky people or you know makeout parties so not like full-on sex parties. But but just mixers really so that's another place where to find people like.
[23:04] Mike: What do you? So good.
[23:09] Stephanie: Speaking of your partner who was running into all these women who didn't want to be non-monogamous so you know other than online deity dating finding actual events where you can meet meet people. That's another way to go.
[23:29] Mike: Well I think part of the problem that he has and I bet this is common is well okay I take that back. This could be common is that um look what he really wants. This is my my co-host what do you? But I what I think he really wants. Um, speaking for him here is.
[23:41] Stephanie: Um, who.
[23:45] Mike: He wants to be non monogamous but he doesn't want. He doesn't want to join the community he wants he wants to be the more a sort of not the only one that's not the right way to say it. But I'm not sure if he would be comfortable. You know, joining joining a community. That's that's built around that I.
[23:45] Stephanie: Um, you know.
[23:50] Stephanie: Ah.
[24:02] Stephanie: Um, right? Interesting Yeah I mean it's not. It's not like you have to join a community in that you um.
[24:03] Mike: I So I suspect that this is common among straight men.
[24:17] Stephanie: You know you have to attend all these events or you have to like live in a polly house or something like that. It's more just ah I mean I mean he has to meet people somewhere right? so.
[24:34] Mike: Sure sure. But it's just it's I think it's I think it's a fundamental like there's a symmet. There's a symmetry that um the the rules the boundaries, the communication creates where.
[24:35] Stephanie: Not so.
[24:40] Stephanie: Yeah.
[24:48] Stephanie: Right.
[24:51] Mike: Everybody's everybody's on the same page. Everybody's doing the same thing but I think there's this and actually this gets to another question I had for you about X exploring. Um I think that for a lot of straight men just like the kind of imperative there for a lot of folks is just they want to you know.
[25:04] Stephanie: Oh.
[25:09] Mike: They want to explore I guess but mostly they just want to kind of be as ah, promiscuous as the wrong word, but you know they want to have sex with as many different people as possible and I'm curious like if you set that aside that sort of desire that I think.
[25:19] Stephanie: Ah.
[25:27] Mike: You could argue. There's some like genetic or biological basis to it. It's kind of an animal desire. Maybe um I think when you talk about exploring you're talking about something a little different from that when you say people going to a club or a party to explore. What's What's what's possible. Um.
[25:37] Stephanie: Um, first.
[25:41] Stephanie: The her.
[25:44] Mike: And and and and I think this is you know from a female perspective. It's probably interesting too because I'm not sure that women would have the same drive. Ah, a man would have their kind of biologically maybe but yeah I'm curious what you mean by explore basically like what what kinds of things would you explore is it is it exploring different personalities exploring how different people. What what? they do? What they.
[25:51] Stephanie: Love yeah.
[26:03] Mike: How they express themselves what they look like or is it all the above.
[26:04] Stephanie: Yes, all of the above and and but mostly about like being in touch with your own sexual desires and and romantic desires and and exploring them with. Actual people and not I mean you could just that you could explore it through porn or yeah, you fantasy? Um, but the kind of exploration that that I'm more interested in is um, you know actual live exploration.
[26:28] Mike: Yes.
[26:44] Stephanie: And so it it could and involve kink um fetishes or you know polyamory or whatever you know, whatever your desires are and going there and you know finding people who.
[27:03] Stephanie: Are willing to explore them with you. Um.
[27:04] Mike: Do you think that's like some kind of an extension of I'm thinking of the dichotomy between introverted and extroverted people I'm despite co-hosting a podcast I'm pretty introverted myself. Um, but ah yeah I mean extroverted people have a desire to.
[27:14] Stephanie: Um, let's look up.
[27:24] Mike: I mean I realize these are kind of blunt categories but they have a desire generally to or get a lot out of meeting new people having shared experiences with other people. Do you think this is some kind of in other words is there like an introverted version of this or would an Introvert Introvert just be like yeah I'd rather sit at home and watch porn.
[27:29] Stephanie: Yeah.
[27:40] Stephanie: Ah, yeah I mean I'm I'm an introvert too Mostly I have I have both sides and like sexually I'm more extroverted because I why I ah.
[27:43] Mike: Okay.
[27:58] Stephanie: Ah, generally I'm an Introvert but I sexually can be very exhibitionist. Um, but shy about the social aspect. So um.
[28:16] Stephanie: For introverts there are websites communities like fet life. For example where you can find if you have a specific something specific that you're looking for. You can find people to who.
[28:26] Mike: Ah.
[28:36] Stephanie: Would be interested in doing something one on 1
[28:37] Mike: It seemed I don't think I'm revealing much to say that it seemed like there was a significant amount of let's see in the film. It. It occurred to me that like there was there was multiple. There were multiple depictions of I Guess. Maybe Bondage is the wrong word, but some kind of like domination submission play is that fair to say is that like is that the depicction go ahead.
[29:01] Stephanie: Yeah, yeah I wanted to and know oh I just I want I included bdsm in in the film. Um, because I've I've had experience with that I enjoy it and it's like part.
[29:09] Mike: Um.
[29:17] Stephanie: There's a lot of overlap between you know sex parties and polyamory and not not everyone who's polly goes to sex parties and I think there's a line about that in the film. Um Veronica says to Daniel oh I like after a sex party he says.
[29:30] Mike: Brian.
[29:36] Stephanie: Oh so does this mean I'm pollly now and she says no going to a sex party doesn't make you pollly so there is a very clear distinction at the same time. There is overlap a lot of polly people do enjoy sex parties. Um, and there are some.
[29:41] Mike: Pride.
[29:55] Stephanie: People who go to sex parties but are not don't identify as polyamorous. They're just exploring sexually but they don't They don't like date people outside of their primary relationship. They're just more like swinging. Yeah.
[30:11] Mike: That makes sense. Do you think that? do you think that in the so you described the bdsm stuff is as a um, something that that interests you and and you can reveal if you want sort of how we approach whether you're more on one side or the other or both if you if you want ah want to discuss that but I'm curious if there's.
[30:18] Stephanie: The.
[30:25] Stephanie: Ah.
[30:28] Mike: Like what the kind of yeah what? what? What's the what it What is the enjoyment that that that's gotten out of that is it is it purely lust or sexual or is there some kind of therapeutic aspect to it as well or something else. Okay.
[30:38] Stephanie: No I would say yeah I would say it's mostly psychological and emotional. Yeah because it's power dynamics you have you have a sub and a dom and so there's a hierarchy There's. 1 person who's higher than the other in terms of who's controlling the situation like that's the setup of it. but but yeah but but then actually what's so interesting is that you know men who.
[31:04] Mike: It just sounds like society.
[31:16] Stephanie: Go to see doms in dungeons like professional doms are usually like in really high powered positions in their in their work their like alpha males are very controlling in their lives and then and then they go to a dom and they're. They want to be completely humiliated like I I haven't I tried to work as a dom for like two weeks when I was in my early 20 s but mostly just from reading and here um hearing about other people's experiences other dom.
[31:35] Mike: Right.
[31:53] Stephanie: Doms I've encountered that a lot of the the men and it's I don't know many women who actually pay to see doms. But um, ah, that's yeah, that's anyway, so it's like ah a lot of the time. There's a rollover.
[32:05] Mike: That's interesting.
[32:12] Stephanie: Reversal going on and um so the very controlling person wants actually wants to not be in control. Um.
[32:12] Mike: Okay, but is it. Does that mean that that you think that many times there are women who want to dominate or does it mean that they're just men. It's always men wanting stuff.
[32:28] Stephanie: I'm just um I was just talking about in the professional realm of of doms who work professionally and like the types of clients they have but it in the party scene or just just in personal exploration.
[32:31] Mike: Sure got it.
[32:46] Stephanie: Ah, yeah, it goes both ways. Female Doms Male doms. Um you know women doning men men doming women. Um and I I wanted to include that aspect in the film I mean.
[33:05] Stephanie: I Think it just but it brings so much more dimension and so like cinematic and it's visual to see how the power dynamics between the characters are like played out in these bdsm scenes. So it's just like another way to show what's going on.
[33:23] Mike: Well, it also strikes me that for you Personally I mean one of the things that you've done in this film is you've revealed yourself in these types of scenes publicly right? That must also have an element of this for you Personally right.
[33:25] Stephanie: Between the characters.
[33:35] Stephanie: Um, yeah I mean that's partly why I played the role because I didn't think I would be able to find an actress who would be as open about the nudity and. And the sex scenes like going as far as I did ah you know? yeah.
[33:56] Mike: It's not. It's not just that if I if I ah so just as a comment. Um I I suspected as I watched the movie but I had not I think I mentioned at the top of the show that I had not actually checked that the that you the writer had played that role. However, I.
[34:08] Stephanie: First.
[34:14] Mike: Had a suspicion while watching the movie because your demeanor is some somehow and I don't know maybe maybe some of the other character. Maybe some of the other actors actresses and actors. Um also have this kind of life experience. You know, have more experience and are more knowledgeable in in this area but but I.
[34:23] Stephanie: Um, for.
[34:32] Mike: Was something about the way you played the role that seemed very sure like sure of that there was so there was some element to it that felt very very believable that made me suspect that that it was both autobiographical and that it might be you playing that role. Yeah.
[34:44] Stephanie: Yeah I Like to think that it's just my my good acting um that ends just committing myself completely to the scene.
[35:00] Mike: Yeah, yeah.
[35:02] Stephanie: You know, um, a part of acting whatever the role is to use your actual emotional experience even even if you've never experienced something that you're acting um. There's something in your life that you can access use as a substitute to really you know to sort of inspire the emotions that are required for the scene or another another push is just be fully present and what's happening. So to forget the camera that the cameras are there forget that you're making a movie that you're just there with with these other human beings who are also you know they're they're playing roles but they're present. They're breathing. They're. Doing whatever they're doing in the scene and so yeah.
[35:58] Mike: That makes sense so one one element another element that I thought was pretty interesting. Was there. There was ah a part of the film where you depicted a triad I think the word was triad right? where it's 3 people who are viewing themselves in a like a thrupple a couple with 3 people.
[36:13] Stephanie: Um, yeah, yeah, that's another word for it. Oh.
[36:18] Mike: And yeah, and that didn't well I don't want to give anything away but like first of all I'll just say that it was a male female female triod and I was curious. Um, and this this leads into there's I have some questions about because there was also a scene involving ah sort of a brief amount of.
[36:23] Stephanie: Um, when.
[36:38] Mike: Kind of investigating um male, male activity and I was sort of curious about that too. But first of all I'm curious about the tribe like is that a realistic depiction in that it's kind of typically a man and 2 women is it or is that not typical is this a thing that that that happens a lot is this something you've encountered a lot and. Is it stable. Can it be stable like does this work well or is it is it is it something that's inherently unstable because it's like kind of like there's always 1 person that's left out I'm sort of curious about how the how in your mind that can work and why you included it and so forth.
[37:10] Stephanie: Yeah I included that because I I had some tryout experiences I had at least 1 and and many attempts at triads ah, and it's it's it was something that my.
[37:28] Stephanie: Partner and I were most interested in because our agreement was that because of my insecurities I felt most comfortable. Um, you know, having experiences with him. Like but dating other people together as a couple and I was really only interested in mostly interested in ah in women other women not not of the men man because my primary partner was a man. Ah.
[38:01] Mike: Okay.
[38:05] Stephanie: And whether or not it's sustainable or if it if it's common like 2 2 females and 1 male I would say I don't know for sure. But I so I would say that that's probably the most common ah type of triad and they. They can last for years I I think I've heard of cases. But um I think typically they don't last very long I the longest triad I was in was six months but um.
[38:37] Mike: Okay.
[38:42] Stephanie: Yeah, what was did I answer all your questions not what? but.
[38:44] Mike: You did no sorry I threw a lot at you there I mean I Yeah I'm curious about the um, it's it. It strikes me that you know there's a there's a you know things tend to operate in like a gender binary and it seems like there's in this.
[39:01] Mike: Sort of Poly Poly situation. There is still kind of a binary in the sense that um, well you were describing kind of having a male partner already and then having another female partner. Um, but I think there's also an element or I suspect I should say that there's also an element of men.
[39:12] Stephanie: To her.
[39:21] Mike: Not wanting to play with other men is that is that is that a a challenge is that a ah ah reality.
[39:24] Stephanie: Yeah, it is a reality and like a certain certain types of parties like like the 2 types of parties I was talking about earlier the parties that are more. Catered toward less experienced couples male female couples. Um, those are the situations where the men the men are more straight and not as open sexually like. So exploring queerness themselves. Um, and.
[40:07] Mike: Some people express skepticism about I think that it's easier put it this way for people to accept bisexuality as a real thing real is not the right word but you know I think you know what I mean is as a as a as a it's easier to view it to to to.
[40:17] Stephanie: Well, that.
[40:26] Mike: It's more surprising to people maybe to see ah to hear about or encounter a bisexual man than a woman I suspect that it's more common among women. Also I don't know if you if if you have any experience in that demand dimension.
[40:26] Stephanie: Move.
[40:37] Stephanie: Um, it Yeah I I don't really know because I don't want to I don't want to speak for statistics that I'm not aware of like but I would say there.
[40:44] Mike: Sure.
[40:53] Stephanie: Probably you know, just throughout history Heterosexual men have had more problems with their sexuality than yeah than women in general I mean maybe just. Just like looking at politics and how you know color I think it's just fear of their own latent sexual desires like their own.
[41:11] Mike: What do you think is going on there like do you have any thoughts on that.
[41:26] Stephanie: Possibly Homo erotic desires that they don't want to Confront so they'll rail against it right? so.
[41:32] Mike: It does I mean there's obviously famous cases where politicians who are very against gay marriage or what have you turn out to be gay so that I don't disagree. It has and yet for sure and and I've often wondered although I've had people.
[41:41] Stephanie: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's happened a lot right? yeah.
[41:51] Mike: Vehemently disagree with me about this but I've often wondered about whether um, what am I trying to say that some some men um like laws against certain activities. Um things things like things things as simple as like the fact that um, telling somebody to blow me is like an epithet right.
[42:02] Stephanie: So.
[42:08] Stephanie: Right? yeah.
[42:11] Mike: The reason it's an epithet I think is because of male like male psychology around that that men view that as a negative act. But and then it's like well wait a minute but this is a reality from the vast majority of women. It's It's like a thing they do you know.
[42:25] Stephanie: It's so much. There's so much Homophobia and internalize Homophobia and I mean gay men straight men by men queer men all like men in general so much homophobia.
[42:30] Mike: Right.
[42:43] Stephanie: With women bisexuality like sex between women is like oh that's hot. You know guys looking at women getting and getting it on and getting turned on whereas they and then I'm talking about like you know.
[42:54] Mike: Right.
[43:02] Stephanie: A typical kind of straight guy a type of straight guy that is um, you know, very very conditioned by society and this not.. It's not totally their fault. But um, this is a program. They. That they grew up with so there's a cannot be gay I cannot be any tiny bit gay. That's just really bad and there's a lot of shame and absolutely like cannot go there at all and therefore the epithets.
[43:27] Mike: Right.
[43:35] Mike: Yes.
[43:36] Stephanie: And then ah but oh my god look at her look at those 2 women. That's so fucking hot seeing them make out wet t-shirts. Oh my god I want a piece of that I want to watch that I want to masturbate to that. So there's a double standard for sure.
[43:51] Mike: Do you do you view? 2 men together as equally interesting to watch as 2 women.
[44:02] Stephanie: Um, I mean it depends on my mood I I what I was very turned on by my partner exploring with men like ah yeah, he he did not heat.
[44:04] Mike: Ok.
[44:18] Stephanie: Not identify as bisexual. Um, but you know had had certain desires when he was younger that he didn't act on and sort of um had some experiences with me and.
[44:37] Stephanie: And I found that very much a turn on and I don't know me go ahead.
[44:41] Mike: Is that? yeah go ahead. Oh the the ah yeah I was curious about. So actually we've encountered a number of situations interviewing people answering questions dealing with different comments from people. Um, where the opposite happens where.
[44:58] Stephanie: Um.
[44:59] Mike: When a man expresses those desires acts on them in some way I'll give you just like ah the most common example is um, a couple agree to a male female couple agree to have an MMF threesome and the man you know.
[45:01] Stephanie: Love.
[45:11] Stephanie: How.
[45:15] Mike: Plays with the other man and then the woman dumps him because she says oh you've you've emasculated yourself like you're not, You're not as strong to me anymore. So I think the opposite can happen too. You're saying that for you, It was not that at all and you're surprised by that. Yeah.
[45:18] Stephanie: Who are ah wow Yeah I Yeah I.
[45:36] Stephanie: That's it's sad to me when when that happens and that's also happened with with MFF threesomes where the guy um is really excited about the fantasy of it. But the reality of seeing his partner with another woman is like. And that what they're experiencing is threatening to him in some way because like oh he he can't give her what you know a woman can or so there's something about that. That's very threatening and and so.
[46:09] Mike: Right? You talk about him. You talk about that a bit in the film. There's jealousy and then I'm going to get the word wrong. It's like pug or me po. What's the correct word conversion. That's it you sorry I was.
[46:12] Stephanie: It happens in both sides. Yeah.
[46:22] Stephanie: Compersion. Yeah, the opposite of it is that basically the opposite of jealousy when you feel when you experience positive feelings about your partner being being.
[46:26] Mike: My my vocabulary skills.
[46:37] Stephanie: With someone else being sexual or romantic with someone else. Yeah.
[46:41] Mike: Is that something that comes naturally to you or something that you've had to um, cultivate and work on or does or yeah I don't know I'm I'm assuming that you are able to accomplish that or have that emotion.
[46:43] Stephanie: Are.
[46:52] Stephanie: Ah, it. Yeah, it has it has come naturally to me but it's like as naturally as as jealousy frankly, they're both natural responses. Um, and I think it just. Comes down to feeling secure feeling safe in your relationship I mean you yeah feeling safe within yourself that whatever's happening is not. You know, triggering fears of abandonment or you know.
[47:13] Mike: Interesting.
[47:27] Stephanie: Being left out. Ah so the conversion thing is I've experienced it more when I've you know, visually witnessed my partner being happy with someone someone else and usually it was. Someone who I was also involved with so that helped. Um so I've struggled I've struggled a lot I've struggled a lot with with with conversion. So I felt it very strongly but and make certain only with the right ingredients you know.
[47:48] Mike: Red.
[48:06] Stephanie: It's It's definitely challenging.
[48:09] Mike: That makes sense. Yeah I wanted to actually wanted to circle back on this sorry this the ah the the 2 men topic for a second because I was curious like in in this it would you jet I mean it's hard to generalize.
[48:18] Stephanie: Um, yeah.
[48:25] Mike: But would you say that this is like that's a relatively is it is It is is polyamory. A gateway for men to exploring that.
[48:33] Stephanie: Yeah I think there's definitely more openness and in Poly communities and um it more for sure you're gonna you know, find a lot less homophobia in in.
[48:50] Stephanie: Paul ah poly events or poly poly communities.
[48:55] Mike: Okay, so you so you think that um maybe well maybe the people maybe the men who are attracted to those events and so forth already have an interest in that area. But maybe of course they probably already have an interest but maybe maybe it kind of unlocks unlocks their.
[49:04] Stephanie: Are.
[49:11] Mike: Or decreases their unwillingness decreases their unwillingness to sort of explore that area. It sounds like that that yeah.
[49:14] Stephanie: Well I think that yeah comes down to what what is the bar for normal like I'm using air quotes What is the bar for normal and typical if you know in society that bar is hetero normative. Um. And that's like the world you're living in.. That's the messages that you're getting.. That's the the movies that you watch and that's what's on the menu. Um, then that's maybe that it's not going to encourage.
[49:53] Stephanie: Desires or behavior that are outside of that norm. But if you're in a world where it is a norm then it's easier I think to access and those desires It's easier to access them.. It's easier to Just. Accept them and once you've done that then the next step is to actually explore them and act on those desires and where you know you're not there. There's already Acceptance. So There's no fear of what one would Hope. There's.
[50:31] Mike: Sure.
[50:32] Stephanie: You know there's no fear of being judged. No fear of being ostracized or being discriminated against and all of that.
[50:41] Mike: 1 of our listeners and sometimes guests on the program want to be to ask you if if you thought that sometimes um sometimes folks in these situations are really looking for How do I describe it she she was describing it as like have you seen the Tv show sister wives sort of embarrassing to. Okay, it's embarrassing to bring that up but basically like a situation where the.
[51:01] Stephanie: Not really, but.
[51:09] Mike: And she was couching as women but it doesn't have to be women but basically that they're interested in some kind of a financial arrangement or something like that in a group arrangement but essentially are actually viewing viewing that as a way to kind of get out of sex is that is that something you've encountered.
[51:13] Stephanie: Um, you know.
[51:27] Stephanie: Um, you mean it in polyamory or in ah oh.
[51:31] Mike: Yes, yes in polyamory basically the the notion of like a triad or ah I don't know what you would say for 4 people but basically the idea that let's say it's 1 man and multiple women that then it actually decreases the amount of. Ah, sexual stress on any individual woman because the man sort of is spread more thin. She wanted me to ask you that.
[51:51] Stephanie: Ah, well um I Guess if I mean that's that's a kind of that could be a motivation for a couple to open up their relationship if if if.
[52:07] Stephanie: You know they have different sexual appetites for sure like if if let's say it's a a man and a woman a relationship and the guy feels like he's not getting enough sex and then he has a conversation with his wife. Let's say they're very open. Let's just assume that said hey I don't want to cheat on you. Um, but I I really need more sex and I don't want to pressure you to give it to me if you don't want that and I love you. But I mean is it okay with you if I have other experiences other sexual experiences or if is it. Okay, if if I.
[52:31] Mike: Right.
[52:44] Stephanie: Go out on dates with other women so I can fulfill this part of myself That's the like ideal conversation right? so.
[52:52] Mike: Well I'm not sure if it's ideal from the from the spouses or the partner's perspective who is being told that right it could be I mean yeah as I mentioned it? Yeah at the beginning the conversation Daniel has in the movie with his wife ah felt very realistic to me that she would just be not happy.
[52:57] Stephanie: Um, yeah, it depends.
[53:02] Stephanie: Right.
[53:08] Stephanie: Yeah, yeah I mean that's a similar conversation but it's it's like what he? what's the alternative being betrayed being lied to you know like what is what is worse I would say that being betrayed and lied to is worse.
[53:09] Mike: About that conversation.
[53:16] Mike: Okay.
[53:24] Mike: I Mean couldn't what I'm imagining somebody might say is something like look I mean when's enough enough like you're interested in exploration you want to try all these things but at some point haven you tried everything and then you kind of know know what's you know the grass isn't greener on the other side like what I don't know.
[53:33] Stephanie: Um, yeah.
[53:40] Stephanie: Yeah I mean that that can be someone's response and if they ultimately are monogamous and just that may be the way that they they view it as a phase like oh you got.
[53:42] Mike: Then yeah I'm wondering what? yeah.
[53:58] Stephanie: Got all your yeah yayas out you've had all these experiences now. It's time to settle down and but you know just doesn't doesn't always work that way. Um, you know, maybe for some people. That's what they they. They do a certain amount of exploration then they they realize they want to scale back and they just want to focus on 1 partner and um I think it's it's just being open to wherever you're at and being true to that and I think that's ultimately what i. I the story I I wanted to tell in my film is yeah.
[54:38] Mike: Got it? Yeah, it's mentioned it's mentioned sorry it's mentioned a couple times. Um that Veronica Views Pauly as kind of the future or the the way. The.
[54:49] Stephanie: Birth.
[54:53] Mike: Well just call it the future I'm not sure exactly how to characterize it I'm curious if you if you feel that way. Do you feel that this is a workable um way for people to be. Do you think it's or do you you know? or do you do you think it's flawed in some way. Do you I mean obviously there's some people that won't like it but I'm curious.
[54:57] Stephanie: Um.
[55:12] Mike: Kind of what your conclusions are if you have conclusions you've drawn about about how workable it is.
[55:14] Stephanie: Um, I think I think it's becoming more I just more accepted and and more acknowledged as an alternative to monogamy. So just. Just to have another choice other than monogamy and lying and cheating like those are the 2 choices that have existed over Millennia um, and I mean I'm and I mean.
[55:37] Mike: Thanks.
[55:52] Stephanie: And then also there's polygamy. There are these other structures the polygamy polygony and these other structures and other cultures that I've existed for a very long time as Well. Um, but I just think yeah I don't think it's ever going to predominate or like take over monogamy I Just think it's. Going to grow to the point where it's more of an equal option and then I think that maybe there'll be like less divorces. There'll be less like like marriage will not be equated with monogamy anymore like I I did not I I. Was married I'm so I'm separated now. But we we did not marry with the intention to be monogamous like that was not that was not the point of of getting married for us. So.
[56:41] Mike: Okay.
[56:50] Mike: Got it and you think that you think that it's It's certainly it's at least there are situations. Well I mean with the doors rate as high as it is. It's reasonable to think that there are situations where um, another arrangement would ah help people. Ah.
[56:51] Stephanie: Yeah.
[57:02] Stephanie: How.
[57:08] Mike: Yeah, help help it work out better. Basically.
[57:10] Stephanie: Yeah I mean one of the top reasons why people separate and divorce or break up is infidelity right and cheating some kind of infidelity lying cheating whatever betrayal. Um.
[57:20] Mike: Yes.
[57:27] Stephanie: So you know eliminating that reason I think would like would significantly look lower the number of of divorces and relationships that that end prematurely.
[57:43] Mike: Cool. Well, it's been almost an hour. Um is there anything else, you'd like to let our listeners know before I before I make sure they they know how to how to watch the film and how great it is.
[57:55] Stephanie: Ah, um, just to I I encourage everyone to just and be honest with yourself and your desires and like listen to your desires and and.
[58:06] Mike: Um.
[58:12] Stephanie: I Hope when you watch the film that you'll you'll take something away from it whether it's ah questioning questioning something or maybe inspiring some curiosity to explore something that you haven't. Given yourself permission to explore or um, anything. But but I mean ultimately what it comes down to is is being true to yourself loving yourself and um.
[58:47] Stephanie: And respecting yourself enough to to be true to your desires and then the the right relationship or relationships for you will manifest.
[59:07] Mike: Right? Well, that's I mean yeah, we we've on this podcast taken some flak before for being honest, as honest as we can. So I know what that's like and um and you know that the I honesty I think is the word I would use to describe the film. It's It's very.
[59:15] Stephanie: Um, ah.
[59:25] Mike: Believable. It's it's great. The film is called lust life. Love I'm here with Stephanie Sellers and I encourage everybody to check it out I will put in the show notes how to access it and it's available on various. We don't demand platforms. Um, and also you can find Stephanie on social media. And I really appreciate you being here and our listeners I'm sure appreciate it too. Thank you very much Thanks.
[59:46] Stephanie: Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

YMMVYour Mileage May Vary

Episode 106: Polyamory in the Real World: Lust Life Love

Episode Transcript