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Episode 13: Blowjob manners, real versus faked orgasms, Tinder versus Seeking Arrangement

Team YMMV | 2-26-2020 | 1:02:13

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Keith and Mike talk about sex and relationships.

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

  • [0:10] Keith: look the problem with tender and they don't publish stats on this, but I'm sure if they did, they would reveal the following. If you are an attractive woman, you get
  • [0:11] Keith: something
  • [0:16] Keith: large multiple of the matches that an attractive man does
  • [0:30] Keith: and 7000 exercise. Lord, it's not two acts. Okay?
  • [0:41] Keith: Hello, and welcome to your mileage may vary. Your mileage may vary is a regrettably to CIS gendered heterosexual man show that examines topics pertaining to sex and relationships, but mostly sex.
  • [0:50] Keith: We scour the web predominantly. Read it because it's a never ending goldmine for suitably salacious topics and then discuss them until we've adequately litigated the matter at hand.
  • [0:53] Keith: And Keith, my co host, is Mike. We'll be getting to in a moment.
  • [1:09] Keith: But first, the usual podcast payroll stuff. The best way to follow us is, of course, to subscribe to our feed and your favorite podcast step available everywhere, including Spotify and apple podcasts. You can also like our Facebook page, and you can email us at why mm. The pod at gmail dot com.
  • [1:12] Keith: Ah, Okay. Mike. Uh, happy belated near.
  • [1:14] Keith: Thanks, Keith.
  • [1:29] Keith: Uh, I have a follow up to our favorite topic which is obviously blowjobs. Are you ready? Yeah, I'm ready. Okay. So, uh, this was on Reddit, actually, four months ago, But in two paragraphs, I think it's sort of
  • [1:31] Keith: succinctly
  • [1:34] Keith: sums up the two different perspectives. So here we go.
  • [1:54] Keith: Sucking dick is completely underrated. I'm the only one in my entire friendship group that actually enjoys blowjobs. It's absolutely crazy to me. How not how not only none of my friends like it. They hate it. I think it's one of the sexiest things ever, and probably my favorite part of sex in general. Okay, so on one hand, you have all of her friends hating it and thinking it's gross. Okay, the other
  • [1:56] Mike: way. This is a woman
  • [2:02] Mike: saying she likes giving them, you know, a man because you can actually read that as a man, saying he likes getting them to go on. Okay, it's a woman just to
  • [2:03] Keith: make
  • [2:12] Keith: it is unclear whether this was written by a man or a woman, actually, but let me read the next part, and then you could tell me whether you think this again A woman. Okay,
  • [2:37] Keith: She they go on. There's nothing hotter than kneeling in front of the guy and unzipping his pants to find his heart and then taking him into your mouth. Sometimes I even get excited to see he's soft, too. I really like the feeling of him getting hard in my mouth. I love everything about it. I love the idea of sucking it. Love being so close and personal to his cock. I love tasting is pre cum. I love hearing him moan and pleasure. I love seeing his toes curl. I left him feeling exploded my mouth. I just love everything about it.
  • [2:39] Keith: Uh, that's a woman.
  • [2:43] Mike: I don't understand how she can see his toes curl while she's doing that, but go on.
  • [2:54] Keith: Yeah, I mean, generally she's she's saying the thing that you usually say, which is like, Yeah, like the thing of delivering pleasure to the man is enough to overcome. Now she said
  • [3:04] Mike: a lot of weird stuff, too, right? She said that she you know, there's there's a lot of stuff in there that suggests unusual mentality. But go on. Yeah,
  • [3:13] Keith: yeah, I've been, you know, trying to be a little bit more open minded about receiving blowjobs since we last recorded.
  • [3:13] Keith: That's
  • [3:17] Mike: good. I mean, we discussed this, and I mean, I think you're
  • [3:21] Mike: I think you have both a psychological and physical issue here.
  • [3:27] Mike: Um, yeah, it limits your enjoyment, which are both equally, I think. Interesting. What do you What
  • [3:29] Keith: do you think the physical issue is?
  • [3:35] Mike: We've discussed this. It's it's Ah, it's and it's this. It's the circumcision thing.
  • [3:43] Mike: Uh, and this is a topic that surprises you even though you are as I know, What kind of a connoisseur of porn,
  • [3:47] Mike: like all men. Ah, but ah,
  • [3:55] Mike: yeah. I mean, they're they're different. Tightness is of circumcision. And if if your foreskin or what's left of it, if you're circumcised is kind of immobile,
  • [4:04] Mike: it can make it kind of unconscious. Makes it more difficult physically to do right. And that's that's the state. The unfortunate state you find yourself in.
  • [4:07] Keith: I think that
  • [4:18] Keith: Yeah. So your thought is that, like, if most men would rate the average blow job like, you know, an 8.4 out of 10 I would rate it like a 6.7 out of 10 or something because of the way I've been circumcised
  • [4:35] Mike: on purely physical grounds. Because if you if you're I'm not sure what the right word is all just a foreskin. I realized that that normally would apply to an intact man. But in this case is whatever's left. Yes, If it's more mobile, then, Yeah, the thing that is done to you just as like,
  • [4:42] Mike: easier, more straightforward, like there's no issues. They're not issues of lubrication and so on and so forth. So just you know, I
  • [4:50] Keith: think I think that might be some of it. But I think 90% of it is psychological or 95%.
  • [4:53] Mike: Well, okay, but hang on, let's switch over. Let's just pretend
  • [4:55] Mike: that we're talking hand jobs.
  • [4:55] Mike: I see
  • [5:06] Keith: the hand jobs. It would be different. I think that the gap between how much I can and physically enjoy hand job and how much somebody with a different circumcision would is different.
  • [5:12] Mike: So with a hand job, you would agree it's mostly there'll be a significant physical barrier
  • [5:14] Mike: to it being fruitful.
  • [5:25] Keith: Yeah, I mean, look, there's also the matter that, like, intellectually, it's not as seemingly disgusting to give a man a blowjob or sorry a hand job is it is to give him a blowjob, but Yeah.
  • [5:27] Mike: Um,
  • [5:28] Mike: okay.
  • [5:29] Mike: Huh? That's interesting.
  • [5:34] Mike: Ah, yeah. I mean, I guess that's obviously true, because because of where the nut goes,
  • [5:35] Mike: Right.
  • [5:45] Mike: Okay, so So that's okay. So So you think it's mostly psychological, But but and importantly, you think that the, uh,
  • [5:48] Mike: natural lubrication in the mouth sort of
  • [5:51] Mike: resolves part of the issue with this hand up? OK,
  • [5:58] Keith: Yeah. All right. In fact, yeah. Like, as I've been, like, experimenting with this, like, I can report that it is,
  • [6:00] Keith: uh, quite nice.
  • [6:04] Keith: Look, this isn't like a major revelation here. Anything but Yeah,
  • [6:10] Mike: right, Right. Okay, so it's psychological and go on. So what? So so explain for our listeners, the psychological components.
  • [6:16] Keith: Look, we've We've gone through this and episodes one through, however many upsets we have, but
  • [6:21] Keith: I think it is. It is hard for me too.
  • [6:37] Keith: Understands why a woman would want to give me a blowjob. And, like, I know all the arguments here like, Oh, do you like going down on girls? Yes, I d'oh d'oh! Isn't that gross? No, I don't think it is. I think there's some There's some difference, but in any case, we don't really have to go through.
  • [6:45] Mike: Why? But what? I mean, like what? How about this one? Like what? Why don't you? Why do you think a woman would want to do anything sexually with you?
  • [6:49] Keith: I don't know. That's actually a good question, but yeah, I feel like blowjobs are
  • [7:06] Keith: are, like, particularly bad. And I know that I'm not, like, crazy for thinking this because of this threat. I just read like she's like, Yeah, like all of her friends hate it, but they don't just like it. They, like, sort of actively hated. And so it's not insane to think that, like blowjobs air sort of
  • [7:11] Keith: I mean objectively, but definitely subjectively disgusting to some people.
  • [7:13] Mike: Um,
  • [7:15] Mike: well,
  • [7:22] Mike: I mean, I think that it's like a funny I mean, I don't think that Okay, my personal take on this is I don't think that it comes down to
  • [7:25] Mike: whether a on active
  • [7:34] Mike: quota quit disgusting or not. I mean, look like if you go on the sex subreddit, there's a shocking amount of content on there about people doing anal lingus. I mean, really, quite a lot
  • [7:37] Keith: of I actually have a topic about that later, but yeah, go on
  • [7:48] Mike: s o and I mean that, like, I think objectively thing you can say just flat out objectively is disgusting. Like R r. Olfactory system is designed on some level two
  • [7:51] Mike: shield us from feces. Yeah, you know,
  • [7:54] Keith: subjectively, some people like it
  • [8:13] Mike: well, busy at So what that what is that? That comes down to the fact that when you're sexually aroused, it suppresses your disgust. And there have been, like, psychological studies. So that's like a fairly easy thing to study psychologically, right? You take something disgusting and then have someone aroused or not aroused and see how they react to it. And your disgust is suppressed
  • [8:23] Mike: through arousal, which makes sense. And so, like what my take on this is basically like these women who are saying they don't like it like they're just not getting aroused.
  • [8:31] Mike: That would be my That's like, That's like, sort of the next worst thing I would say. It's like, Look, these are women who are just not attracted their partners. They might just have low libido.
  • [8:37] Mike: Um, and so they're just like, Look, sex is disgusting, but the difference is, here's the key difference is that like
  • [8:48] Mike: P. I V, they could just sort of ignore it, right? It's sort of like they could just shield. They can sort of put a mental curtain there. Where's when it's aural like it's, You know, that sort of It's much harder to pretend
  • [8:56] Keith: it's a feeling that there is a new, attractive enough person that would make a Malinga's compelling for you.
  • [8:58] Mike: I'm sorry, can you explain the question? But do you mean like
  • [9:08] Keith: Okay, so you're saying that like, uh, okay, there's their sub scale, right? So with with with with P I V, like most people can,
  • [9:20] Keith: you know, be attractive, be attracted enough to, like, tolerate that. But if But if somebody is less attractive than you or yeah, if they're not, if they're not attracted enough to someone, then giving them a blow job is fairly uncompelling.
  • [9:21] Keith: Um,
  • [9:52] Mike: I understand. Okay. So I think I understand what you're saying. So, so attractive. Okay, First of all, for a man, physical attractiveness is gonna be in a more important component than for a woman right in the men in general aren't that physically attractive. And so women are aroused by their things. But I don't think the right to mention here is attractive, I think the right to mention yours arousal. And so really, I think what you should have asked, could I Could I imagine being sufficiently aroused to suppress the discussed? Yes. Of of poop? Yes and yes,
  • [9:57] Mike: sure. I mean, like, I mean, I like because I I'm not sure there's really a limit to that, like I mean,
  • [9:58] Keith: yeah,
  • [10:07] Keith: but what could possibly worse be worse than like, like, basically eating poop? I don't know, like eating decaying flesh or something like that next evening. Like more repulsive
  • [10:11] Mike: necrophilia. Bestiality,
  • [10:13] Mike: Okay, some sort of view. Cocky but big.
  • [10:16] Keith: Something eating animal poop. Yeah,
  • [10:21] Mike: really, really aroused to do. Be cocky.
  • [10:29] Mike: I'm not sure, but I mean like, but But that being said, I'm not sure I could rule it out like I Okay, so let me be clear. Like, I've never been aroused enough in my life too.
  • [10:46] Mike: Go this far to have these things seem appealing, but there are drugs that I have not used. Ah, that will sort of simulate these feelings of arousal. And, um yeah. I mean, like, I wouldn't surprise me if, like, there's a drug that, like I could administer to you and you would just be licking ass all day.
  • [10:47] Mike: I'm actually pretty sure of it.
  • [10:55] Mike: Ah, And so and so, Yeah, with these women, I just think they're not. I just think they're not getting aroused. I think it's I think it's that simple. And also, I think that you're
  • [11:00] Mike: your reaction to this is incorrect. I think the way you should think about it is ah,
  • [11:07] Mike: is it like the nastier the thing that one wants to do, the more aroused she is so that, like, you should be pleased by that now, I mean,
  • [11:17] Keith: unless they're doing it just I mean, I think some women and you could read this on the sex subreddit, like a lot of women are giving people blow jobs out of obligation. They feel like they have to
  • [11:25] Keith: on and then, you know, they're, like, sort of complaining about how their partner always wants it, and, you know, it makes them feel like crap.
  • [11:29] Keith: And so, like, true. I mean, I don't know what they're simulating arousal.
  • [11:30] Mike: Well, that's like
  • [11:32] Keith: they never would with me. So I guess that's not initially.
  • [11:35] Mike: I know it's a difficult thing, generally
  • [11:38] Mike: with when dealing with women. I think that, like,
  • [11:46] Mike: um, they're certain physical signs of arousal that men appear to be, uh, kind of woefully inadequate at
  • [11:49] Mike: detecting in many cases.
  • [12:00] Mike: Yeah, I'm not. Yeah, I mean, that's that's tricky. I under I understand exactly what you're saying and it's a really it would be a real issue. You're like, Is this because she's super aroused? Or is this because she's like, Fuck? I have to give Keith a blow now? Because he bought me dinner.
  • [12:03] Keith: I think I can actually tell
  • [12:10] Keith: whether somebody is simulating arousal or not. But even if I can like, there's still like the psychological thing where I'm not
  • [12:11] Keith: and
  • [12:20] Mike: we've established, we've, I think firmly established that you are not capable of distinguishing fake from real female orgasms.
  • [12:26] Mike: I mean it. Five, In my opinion, there is sufficient statistical evidence to establish that, and that's because you,
  • [12:30] Mike: uh I mean, when you like, for example, like it's
  • [12:55] Mike: it's common knowledge that surveys in surveys, women report seldom having orgasms in the first couple encounters with men. And by the way, this is one of the arguments that I think, uh, goes against some of the women who disagree with my feelings, uh, expressed on this podcast. Yeah, if women are so sexually liberated and
  • [13:14] Mike: they could just fuck anyone and it's just great for them, even if they're just having one night stands over the place and why? Why, If it's so great for them, Do women report not typically having orgasms until see the 3rd 4th 5th sexual encounter with the same man? What's going on there? What's so great about it? For them having all these one night stands where they don't have orgasms? And of course,
  • [13:18] Mike: you know, I'm sure you'll find the one woman who just has orgasm constantly.
  • [13:25] Keith: Yeah, I mean, and I suspect, like, the people who have Yeah, there's like a
  • [13:31] Keith: There's like a sampling issue here. Like you need the people that the people who
  • [13:36] Keith: are feeling more liberated might record might report. Ah, hire or desert, right?
  • [13:51] Mike: They might. They might, although they might look. Yeah, there could be, like, a cross tabulation correlation thing there. Um I mean, there's another issue with women, and this, I think, also relates to your we should move on a set. But I want to say this okay also also relates to your
  • [13:59] Mike: You're famed a success at giving women orgasms on the first time with you. Yes, the incredibly
  • [14:06] Keith: just let me just like you mentioned this quickly. I mean, it is possible that I am skilled,
  • [14:11] Keith: but anyway, go on. It's your right. Given like a normal distribution, I might not be. But who knows Anyone?
  • [14:26] Mike: No, no, no, no, No. Knowing your personality, I actually believe that you are and that the women are aroused by you. I actually I actually think that I'm not disputing that at all. And I also your unusual among men in that you tend to tell the truth,
  • [14:30] Mike: you know, in situations where the truth might actually
  • [14:49] Mike: cut against you. So actually believe that stuff That being said like, look, there's like a comfort level and it just, you know, like the first time she exposes her body to you like it's just a little bit uncomfortable. So it's just a little even with even with you being at that level like I still find it, sort of, um, sort of skeptical. The thing I want to say that is that there is also research
  • [15:07] Mike: that a substantial percentage of women may not really know what an orgasm is. And so women think they had one, but they actually never have in their entire life. And there's there's native behind that that we don't need to get into. But there's like there's there's an interesting question there. And of course there's even the sort of physiological question of like
  • [15:17] Mike: like, what is an orgasm for a woman like, I mean, because for a man, it sort of obvious kind of tends to go along with ejaculation, But for a woman, you go well, how do you define it? And so like that you can get into that stuff, too? And
  • [15:28] Keith: there was a There was a thread on Reddit about this actually tried to find it before we started recording here. I'll find it for the next show, where somebody was saying that she thought she'd been having orgasms her entire life.
  • [15:42] Keith: She hadn't. She had recently had her first. Ah, and then, Yeah, and the responses. There were a bunch of people asking her lots of questions about that because they were yeah, that she described it in such a way that I think
  • [15:45] Keith: made other people sort of question what they thought anyway. Yeah, we can. We can expect
  • [15:56] Mike: three. I read that one, too. And the piece of research looks is a hard thing to research, but people can look up. There is some amount of research that's been done where they have women masturbate,
  • [16:01] Mike: and they put probes up their butts to see the look for the tell tale, huh?
  • [16:13] Mike: Contractions of the anal sphincter or and women? The correlation between women reporting psychologically that they had an orgasm and actually the machine thinking they did is not
  • [16:22] Mike: as high as one. Good. Yeah, it's not 1 to 1. It's not zero or anything, but it's not. It's less than you think. And so there's a lot of women who do
  • [16:27] Mike: either. We don't know what an orgasm is for women, or they don't There, miss reporting any way we can move on.
  • [16:28] Keith: Okay. All right. We should look at the numbers on this.
  • [16:33] Mike: I now have no infuriated our entire female female Mr Ships,
  • [16:46] Keith: right? Yeah. Okay, So we were talking about in a Lingus. And now there's this Reddit thread here that I thought was interesting and I think wrong, but it involves science, so Okay,
  • [17:11] Keith: Uh, this guy says my friend and I did the test. How unsanitary isn't really to eat ass? My friend and I are interested in science. We also think that rim jobs air fun to give me and receive her. One of these guys work in a lab together. It's unclear way. Here we go. Sorry. She doesn't molecular biology and has plenty of experience using lab equipment to examine bacteria and fungal pathogens. The procedure to study how disgusting a given surfaces is pretty straightforward. You've probably done this yourself in middle school science class,
  • [17:25] Keith: using multiple swabs to get a good average. We tested several surfaces. Ah, clean kitchen counter, my dick, her vulva, both of our upper backs, both of our anuses after showering and washing in there with soap,
  • [17:32] Keith: greatest amount and most diverse growth kitchen counter. Next, for some reason, was my upper back.
  • [17:41] Keith: I promise. I shower. Maybe my skin sheds a lot, he says in parentheses. After that, our anuses dicks involved growths looked almost completely identical. Okay,
  • [17:44] Keith: is that possible? I think
  • [17:48] Mike: it is because I think I mean, there's a lot of like, look, okay,
  • [18:01] Mike: the you mean there's a lot of meth. A logical issues here, like the first would be like Like, what kind of how did the swab work? Because, like, it's gonna be a big difference between if you just If you just like wipe along the surface versus if you take a Q tip in, jam it two inches in
  • [18:05] Keith: Sure, and I wish they would have done mouth. But go on.
  • [18:07] Keith: Oh, mouths. I mean, that's like it could be
  • [18:11] Mike: that your mouth is justus Dirty is Uranus. It's
  • [18:13] Mike: the difference. Is that like
  • [18:14] Mike: you know,
  • [18:15] Mike: you're
  • [18:20] Mike: you're here. Olfactory system is designed to reject the contents of your
  • [18:27] Mike: like It just is disgusting, like And you could say, What does disgusting mean? Can you quantify it? Well, it's hard, but like
  • [18:29] Mike: poop, poop is not like,
  • [18:37] Mike: yeah, unless you're like a fee. Kofi, Liam, whatever you call it a Seiko file. Ah, it's tough.
  • [18:45] Keith: I think also that they showered and like, rinsed out their anuses before before. Swapping is fairly important here, like the problem is
  • [18:52] Keith: the poop particles or or whatever. The next unit of sizes up from particle
  • [18:53] Keith: like
  • [19:00] Keith: that's not, I guess, nugget or
  • [19:03] Keith: turtle it I don't know. Um,
  • [19:12] Keith: yeah, It just seems like Yeah, like that's the risk there is, like, the actual fecal matter which I think was sort of excluded from this particular test.
  • [19:16] Mike: Well, yeah. I mean, like, look like like, look like, uh,
  • [19:17] Mike: but
  • [19:25] Mike: okay, if you're gonna run your tongue around a hole in a person's body, you're probably going to some points. Stick your tongue into the hole,
  • [19:37] Mike: and that's where the problem. So it's like, Yeah, if you're if you're right, if they're holding it tight and you just rub over the surface, then yeah, I have no doubt that could be great if the person's showered recently, But the thing is like,
  • [19:43] Mike: you don't necessarily know that. And I have definitely seen postings where there's, like, it's clear that, like, there's, you know,
  • [19:47] Keith: okay, Like, I was carefully pooped.
  • [19:55] Keith: Yeah, I mean, look, let's say that you've showered and you've, like, rinsed around, So the external of the anuses. Fine. Like, how far up do you have to go before
  • [19:58] Keith: there's shit?
  • [20:08] Mike: I, uh, there's only one way to find out this. I think we'd have to do a series of Q tips, but I would imagine it's it's we're talking like no more than an inch or two.
  • [20:26] Keith: Yeah, I don't think it's very far like I'm guessing the bottom of it is that the colon that ends at the Ennis, the records, the rectum. Okay, whatever. I'm guessing like a soon as you get in there as soon as you like. You know, past Thea, whatever the threshold, there's stuff that you can't clean clothes. I mean, maybe you could get in there with some sort of
  • [20:28] Keith: tool,
  • [20:33] Keith: but then but then that yet, But let me know how far up do you go with the tool to clean? Like eventually there's there's gonna be shit.
  • [20:38] Mike: Yeah. I mean, this stuff is all pretty rough. Like, I'm not. I'm not sure, Like unless the person
  • [21:02] Mike: does some pretty intensive internal cleaning and even then, like, I would have some doubts about like, Yeah, I mean, they're on some level. It's just like, what's the point? Like, what are you trying to do? Although, you know, there's always the guys on the pornographic subreddit ce who try to post videos of themselves jamming things up their butts and they're like, Oh, I mean, that's a pretty common the prostate stimulation thing is a pretty common one on the sex subreddit as well. Yeah, and you know, I mean, yeah. I mean, I
  • [21:09] Mike: it's it's sort of a shame for men that there's this, like, pleasurable thing they can do that requires sticking something up there, But
  • [21:15] Keith: yeah, I have not experimented with that much. We talked a bit about how,
  • [21:24] Keith: uh, in the past, Like, I sort of stupidly associate ID any sort of anal play with with, uh,
  • [21:31] Keith: questions about my sexuality. But that's like, Yeah, that's obviously not the case. So, like, I don't understand. Yeah, I don't know. I don't I don't know
  • [21:34] Keith: how you
  • [21:38] Keith: broach that in a, like, a reasonable way without
  • [21:40] Keith: getting shit everywhere.
  • [21:48] Mike: Yeah. I mean, I think you have to go through some sort of cleaning regimen, which, you know, you just have to decide. Like if that's what you wanna be doing with your life
  • [21:49] Mike: cleaning your medal,
  • [21:54] Keith: have one Maur excrement related topic, and then we'll get on to She says, Yeah,
  • [22:15] Keith: yeah. I mean, maybe I shouldn't do three in a row, but he wouldn't go ahead. This is wife finally said yes. A little context a while ago my, uh, my wife found out about my p fetish because she found my Tumblr that had a lot of pictures of girls peeing through their panties. But she wasn't really bothered by it that I liked that. And it's unclear if that's his Tumblr
  • [22:17] Keith: account, where he was after getting the
  • [22:29] Mike: motor you can like, kind of connect other. It's, you know, it's just like a social network where you could grab photos from other people's stuff in adity or so could sort of both right Pinterest sort of. Yeah,
  • [22:44] Keith: well, today I finally found the courage and straight up asked her if she would ever let me watch her pee through her panties and even pee on me. Then it all caps, she said, Yes, Exclamation point. I was so excited. She said, that she understood why I had that fetish and that she would be happy to oblige.
  • [22:50] Keith: Moral of the story. You never know what to your ask. Okay. Why do men want to be peed on it? Some sort of submissive. I think I
  • [22:56] Mike: have to be honest. I'm still a little bit stuck on the way it sounds when you say P threw her panties.
  • [22:59] Mike: It's very like
  • [23:01] Keith: there's like acid. It's incontinent continents. And
  • [23:07] Mike: there's some sort of like, if some sort of a feminine. It's a phrase that you're staying there, that okay,
  • [23:15] Keith: so she can urinate through her undergarments. Yeah, that's better. Still trying to lower the timber of my voice. I don't know help. So
  • [23:27] Mike: I just mean a piss through her underpants Piss. There is hard underpin all those words. Sort of make you sort of. Anyway, So why do men want to be peed on? Because men want to do, like, taboo things with checks.
  • [23:35] Keith: Ah, I think there are taboo things that don't involve having experiments on me.
  • [23:38] Mike: Where excrement is usually Coop.
  • [23:42] Keith: Is he not in the same Venn diagram?
  • [23:51] Mike: Well, of course, on some level, but I just don't want people. Just when people say the word excrement, they're talking about crap they're not talking about pee pee would be like, uh,
  • [23:54] Mike: well, you're in. I don't know. Okay, I was just clarifying. So
  • [23:57] Keith: you're trying to connect it to the to the private previous topic, but okay. Yeah.
  • [24:15] Mike: I mean, I'm not sure. Uh I don't think that Thea, this is all about like a guy getting titillated by, like the fact that the woman is doing something taboo and like there's some sort of emotional reaction, it's not in that sense, it's not very different from like anal sex, right? It's like you're just you're just doing something that like she shouldn't want to do.
  • [24:17] Mike: Yeah ah,
  • [24:23] Mike: yeah, he's getting off on it And she's what I forget what was going on with? She just sort of like, Why does he like this? I forget.
  • [24:37] Keith: No, I get, he says. Look, this guy is His writing is a little questionable in, like 3/4 through six are always fake. But he says she said that she understood why I had that fetish and that she would be happy to oblige. I don't know how she understood
  • [24:39] Keith: why he had that finish, but
  • [24:40] Keith: I think
  • [24:43] Mike: women mostly just don't care. They're like, all right,
  • [24:45] Mike: I'll do. I'll do the weird thing you want done.
  • [24:55] Keith: Yeah, well, that I mean, that one is sort of like explicitly demeaning to him at least. Can you imagine if was not like, Hey, do you mind if I, like pee on your face like that? She might be more hesitant on that one.
  • [25:01] Mike: Like, how would you feel if there was some equivalent like me? This is what I was.
  • [25:02] Mike: Um,
  • [25:07] Mike: I've generally read things by women about, like, their experiences on tinder and the like and,
  • [25:22] Mike: you know, just like men, you know, get ghost it all the time. It's all the things that happened with men. But like women and women get goes to two. But there's a you know, women have to put up also with this sort of ongoing barrage of insane male sex requests, right? It's actually like one of the most common things, right? So, like,
  • [25:23] Keith: how would you
  • [25:25] Mike: feel if, like, you know,
  • [25:32] Mike: you pretty much knew you're like on a date with the chicken, like you're like, Oh, man, when we go back to my place like she's gonna ask me, she can shit on my face,
  • [25:44] Keith: right? Exactly. They have to, like, you know, spin the wheel and, like, up comes like he wants me to pee on him or, you know, up comes like, you know, you can only have sex if I'm, like, completely tied up or up, comes whatever
  • [25:48] Mike: right. And you should You should probably grateful that, like, I mean, women have their own set of sort of
  • [26:05] Mike: behaviors. But, like, this is like one where women are much more straight down the middle. Typically, uh, you don't. And I'm trying to think, like, what would be what would be like? Something that you really wouldn't want done to you like a woman to be like. Because, I mean, if you were gonna turn, like, turn the tables and be like, Okay, so men are titillated by women
  • [26:14] Keith: doing tab you things. Yeah. I think the classic one is pegging. I think most men are
  • [26:17] Keith: sure. Oh, loads to do that for I think
  • [26:18] Keith: I think that
  • [26:19] Mike: it would. For me, it would be
  • [26:21] Mike: that would be tough.
  • [26:26] Mike: I was thinking something about like if she decided she had a fetish for, like,
  • [26:30] Mike: taking my semen and then, like, making me eat it later or something. I've been pretty revolting.
  • [26:32] Keith: If you sure you wouldn't like that?
  • [26:34] Mike: I'm pretty sure.
  • [26:40] Mike: Particularly. Yeah, there's there's often these these guys. Yeah, like, you know,
  • [26:48] Mike: it's he gives back to the discussed thing, but and then post nut clarity, ultimately, like, these guys were like women or whoever people who are like
  • [26:55] Mike: Oh, man, he won't. He won't taste it after after he finishes and it's like, Yeah, I mean, so So in other words,
  • [26:58] Mike: taking that moment where your disgust,
  • [27:04] Mike: you know, the discussed suppression is totally gone. So, like you've just noted, everything is disgusting to you and then make the
  • [27:05] Keith: lights Come on. So
  • [27:15] Mike: this would be terrible. So, for example, she's like my baby. My fetish is I'm gonna give you a hand job and right after you're not, I'm gonna peg you.
  • [27:18] Keith: Yes, that would be
  • [27:19] Keith: Yeah.
  • [27:20] Mike: Feet feed you your own semen.
  • [27:26] Keith: I mean, in some ways, you know, you might agree to that because, you know, at the time of the negotiation,
  • [27:32] Keith: you know, pre nut, you're like, you know, hey, whatever. Like your arousal is at a peak. And so I
  • [27:40] Mike: had that Most women. I bet most women be interesting to post this on sex Subreddit get some feedback. But I bet most women have had guys
  • [27:46] Mike: do that have got guys be like, Oh, I want to do this after I nut and then and then not do it.
  • [27:48] Mike: Yeah, I'd be interesting to get sort
  • [27:52] Keith: of version of that happens. I mean, everyone complains about, like how?
  • [28:00] Keith: Yeah, like sex almost always ends as soon as the guy nuts. And, uh, yeah, the woman is often left left wanting for various reasons.
  • [28:04] Mike: When I was in high school, I had a girlfriend who
  • [28:22] Mike: she was like, Hey, I, uh I need to talk to you about something. Can we go go to my car and we'll talk about it like, Okay, I totally I I really thought she was pregnant. I was like, Shit, this is that is not a good and the things she wanted to talk about. What's the fact that after I noted, I was just totally distant
  • [28:24] Mike: and I was like, Oh,
  • [28:29] Mike: well, anyway, I was in high school, so, you know, it's a long time ago. There wasn't like a subreddit to read,
  • [28:35] Keith: right? Did you feel any guilt about this at the time? You already were like, Well,
  • [28:39] Mike: number one was relief because I was like, Oh, is that all
  • [28:40] Mike: in? The second thing
  • [28:44] Keith: is that it's not like I'm emotionally hurting your feelings Every time we have sex is
  • [28:44] Keith: I
  • [28:52] Mike: mean, I got like, I was genuinely, like, really nervous and nervous in the wedding adolescence, I think get even like this really am nervousness. You can have
  • [28:55] Keith: that. It is like a physical. Yeah,
  • [29:10] Mike: Stars like afraid. And so that so that went away. It was like, Oh, that's great. And then I was sort of, like, you know, and then know the immediate next thing was okay, calibration. What What sentence do I have to say next to make sure this chick stays on my deck?
  • [29:12] Keith: Do you remember what you came up with?
  • [29:27] Mike: Oh, it was just something like, Oh, you know, I'm sorry. Like I'll try better. And then, you know, for the next couple, you know, I think I did try it. Try. But it was always It was always, like 100% just like conscious effort. There was no desire to be nice after word.
  • [29:39] Mike: It was always just like and I think I don't do Do you do that? Are you? Do you feel a need to basically, like, overcome your own drowsiness and kind of disgust? And whatever else comes with the post not clarity to like
  • [29:40] Keith: Ah,
  • [29:51] Keith: I kind of like I kind of like cuddling after sex. I think for fuck's sake, Keith. Really? I'm not, I think, Yeah, I think if there's a spectrum, I'm probably like this.
  • [29:54] Keith: I feel like I'm fairly decent on that front.
  • [29:57] Mike: Do you have, like, a short, refractory period?
  • [30:01] Keith: Mmm. I think normal. What is that, like,
  • [30:05] Keith: average refractory period for, like, a 39 year old man.
  • [30:06] Mike: I mean,
  • [30:08] Mike: Well, okay, first of all, Okay. Look,
  • [30:12] Keith: like I've read it can go from, like, you know,
  • [30:22] Keith: something some people say they can, like, immediately get hard again. That's but that means they probably didn't, like, have a full orgasm. But I've read anything from, like, minutes to 24 hours.
  • [30:27] Mike: I think it varies from the one thing I wanted speeding in.
  • [30:30] Mike: Well, uh
  • [30:38] Mike: OK, well, OK, there's a couple things here. I might. What I've read is the median, something like 30 minutes, but it's gonna depend heavily on, like, situational, right? Yeah.
  • [30:54] Mike: Now, one thing that comes up in this context is the Coolidge effect, which people talk about, and I just pulled it up here on Wikipedia. The Coolidge effect scene in animals, males exhibit renewed sexual interest whenever a new females introduced up sex with.
  • [30:57] Mike: Even after cessation of sex with prior
  • [31:01] Mike: but still available sexual partners. The point is that the Coolidge effect
  • [31:05] Mike: means that you can get aroused much more quickly if there's a novel female.
  • [31:16] Mike: Now, I've never actually tested this, and I would be grateful, And probably our listeners would be grateful if you could test it. But the way you would do it is you would not. Maybe you could have two different women in different rooms,
  • [31:20] Mike: not with one, And then just quickly go to the other room and see if you can immediately get about minutes opposing.
  • [31:30] Keith: Yeah, that Wikipedia thing even says, like, it can't be someone you've had sex before. So these have to all the new people to really maximize or minimize the Coolidge fact.
  • [31:35] Mike: That's true. You'd have to hire a prostitute. Yeah. Prostitutes.
  • [31:41] Mike: Well, no, because the 1st 1 could just be a normal partner. It would have to be a partner, okay, with the fact that you've hired a prostitute in the next.
  • [31:48] Keith: Okay, so, yeah, if we're just trying to figure out what is the shortest possible refractory period. Yeah. Okay, that would work.
  • [31:54] Keith: What did you have to nut and the first person could be someone you know. And then the second person needs to be someone completely brand new and also compelling.
  • [32:06] Mike: Yeah, I know you have some interest in this because I know that in general you have interest in seeing things your body can do. Yes. And if this is a thing your body can do that, you've never had it do before, so you might consider it.
  • [32:13] Keith: I'd be curious to see, like, how many times I could, like, my God nut in, like, a 12 hour period.
  • [32:16] Keith: But, I mean, like, this experiment is completely impossible without
  • [32:20] Keith: yeah, with without, I guess, employing prostitutes.
  • [32:25] Mike: Yeah. I mean, so, like, uh, you get, for example, you could,
  • [32:41] Mike: um, just have the prostitute, like, lie there, and then you would beat off into her chest. So it's not so. There's no Fitz. It's not like you're not passing germs around or something, right? You're just like, Look, I'm just doing this experiment. I actually think it might be fairly easy to get women for pretty low price to do that,
  • [32:44] Keith: huh? How to put something on
  • [32:48] Keith: craigslist to let that gigs section.
  • [32:51] Mike: Yeah, but I think they've cut out the, uh
  • [32:53] Keith: Now this is non penetrative.
  • [32:56] Mike: That's true. She is acting right, she said. It's a modeling
  • [32:59] Keith: gig. That's right,
  • [33:01] Keith: modeling with with some
  • [33:06] Keith: with some pearl necklace. Cleanup requirement. Yeah, well, she
  • [33:18] Mike: couldn't even, like, have a plastic sheet. I mean, but it has to be enough that, like you'd be aroused. I think I do. I would say this that I would have some interest in seeing my body do that. In my experience, it's usually, like, at least
  • [33:36] Mike: particularly after the second time I have sex. It's at least 20 to 30 minutes of like, pretty much like you not. I'm not gonna get aroused, but, you know, science says that I should be able to do it with a novel female. You also could imagine porn being able to do that. But in my experience, it doesn't so That's interesting. I'd
  • [33:42] Keith: have to I'd have to find a bunch of new porn that I know is good.
  • [33:44] Keith: There's one other. There's one
  • [33:50] Mike: other issue here. Yeah, which is It goes back, actually, to the thing about like a woman
  • [33:55] Mike: having a fetish for what happens during your post net clarity, which would be terrible
  • [34:04] Mike: and that is it, like remember that you'd have sex the first time and you would be in that moment of post, not clarity. You would have to get up, walk in the next room where there's a prostitute,
  • [34:06] Mike: and that actually is kind of sickening, right?
  • [34:12] Keith: I actually wonder. Let's say it's not a prostitute. Let's say it's, you know, whatever the most beautiful woman in the world
  • [34:14] Mike: who just comes in and one step sex with you,
  • [34:17] Keith: right? And she's just like,
  • [34:24] Keith: you know, Come on, baby. Like she's clearly maximally interested in it. There's nothing, you know, perform about it. Um,
  • [34:27] Mike: then it would work. I believe that makes sense,
  • [34:35] Keith: but yeah, I mean, that's obviously a very difficult situation to set up the vineyard. And then who's the third person? The second most beautiful person in the world around? It gets tricky.
  • [34:38] Mike: Your post, not clarity, would immediately drain away. Apparently,
  • [34:41] Keith: I think it actually they don't need to be,
  • [34:47] Keith: I think, to, like minimize the Coolidge effect. The person doesn't actually have to be,
  • [34:49] Keith: you know, a 10 or whatever.
  • [34:51] Mike: I don't think so. I just think it'd be available.
  • [34:54] Keith: It's the novel nous that's most important,
  • [35:04] Mike: right? Uh, yes, it doesn't say. Of course. Of course. I think this is mostly seen in animals. And it would be difficult to know, like, for example, for rats What a male rat considers to be an attractive female.
  • [35:06] Keith: Yeah, Yeah,
  • [35:22] Keith: yeah. Um, okay. All right, let's move on. So, uh, it has been a while since we last recorded, And in that period of time, I experimented with seeking arrangement a bit. Um, I think there's some interesting things to explore here.
  • [35:26] Mike: So this is the site where this is the site.
  • [35:30] Mike: I have an account on there, too. I've never paid. Did you have a paying or a free account?
  • [35:34] Keith: Yes. You have to pay in order to.
  • [35:37] Keith: I don't remember exactly. Um,
  • [35:45] Keith: but you have to pay in order to receive messages. I think I think you could see that you have received messages, but you can't read them unless you pay. Right.
  • [35:50] Mike: So I just went in with a free account just to see, like, what was in there? And it appears
  • [35:53] Keith: to be profiles with the free account.
  • [36:04] Mike: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. You can search of you profiles and stuff like that. I mean makes sense because they're trying to up sell you to the pants, right? Land right on. But the general thing here is, uh and I think that
  • [36:10] Mike: to some extent, I think there's a lot of things that have moved to this site because of the shutdown of
  • [36:16] Mike: backpage and craigslist Sort of prostitution thing. But there's also this sort of huh?
  • [36:25] Mike: Part of our society based around younger women and older men and some kind of financial arrangement, which I think is the point of the site, right?
  • [36:25] Mike: Uh,
  • [36:36] Keith: yeah, I just got promoted to this. Yeah. Yeah, My recollection is when you sign up, it even says like, Hey, this is not a paper meat or
  • [36:54] Keith: monthly allowance website like they pay some lip service to. I think there was another site like this that called Ashley Madison, but it got shut down. I think they're based in the United States, and I don't know if seeking arrangement. It's actually just seeking dot com Now. I'm not sure if they
  • [37:03] Keith: are based in the United States or how they are avoiding legal trouble, because, ah, lot of what's going on. There is basically outright process that Ashley
  • [37:07] Mike: Madison was fraudulent in the sense that it wasn't
  • [37:08] Mike: it wasn't for
  • [37:28] Mike: welcome. Ashley Madison was a site where people would go to have an affair, and the problem was they created a bunch of fake female accounts because actually, there aren't that many women who want to go on a site and just have an affair, by contrast, offered shocking contrast. And I find seeking very interesting because I think it actually is
  • [37:41] Mike: playing into its playing into the sort of stereotypical ah, stereotypical desires, right? A man stereotypically desires a younger, attractive woman and a younger, and a younger woman
  • [37:49] Mike: stereotypically desires a man to provide for her. And I know that's why I keep saying stereotypical, because women will say, That's not everyone.
  • [38:20] Mike: Ah, but I actually think that that's sort of interesting, because to the extent that there are a bunch of people that want those things like they're providing a valuable service like there may be a lot of, say, 23 year old women who would love to dates a 40 year old man who where there's less drama, and they can, um, afford to pay for trips and expensive restaurants, and also just sort of financial stability. I mean, so is that what you found on the site? Women Sort of looking for that type of stuff.
  • [38:28] Keith: Yeah. So, first off, uh, I should be clear. I never gave anybody any money. Um, I did pay
  • [38:31] Mike: itself more is like a coach, right? You're You're You're,
  • [38:45] Keith: uh I mean, yeah. I mean, I signed up out of curiosity and the sort of collect data. I I thought that I thought that the website was basically gonna be I thought everyone was gonna be a prostitute. Um, but that's not really what I found
  • [38:46] Mike: that there are prostitutes on there. There
  • [38:50] Keith: are There are there are. Look, if you want to find if you want to find,
  • [38:58] Keith: like, a very attractive person to have sex with, like tonight, I think you could do it fairly easily
  • [39:03] Keith: on that website. Like, they're people that are willing to fly in, Um
  • [39:06] Keith: and like, I never
  • [39:08] Keith: ah
  • [39:14] Keith: discussed anything with these people, but it would be beach. I'd be curious to know, Like what that costs. I don't know when
  • [39:18] Mike: you say you mean not how much the plane flight costs, but how much like if
  • [39:26] Keith: I like it. Yeah, exactly. Someone's gonna come. They're gonna spend 24 hours or whatever for 12 hours in a city.
  • [39:30] Keith: Uh, yeah. I mean, the transport will probably be several $100
  • [39:36] Keith: but then what do they charge for their time and for presumably,
  • [39:39] Keith: access to their body? Like, I don't know. I don't know.
  • [39:45] Mike: Right? So we're probably at this point, we should mention there is a subreddit called Sugar Lifestyle Forum,
  • [39:56] Mike: out of which, which I've frequented for some time just because I find the stories entertaining and, uh, they used to on this subreddit discuss the amount of money for things.
  • [40:02] Mike: Ah, but they stopped because it was creating a lot of friction because basically
  • [40:32] Mike: the men and the women, the men being older men and the women being younger, women who are engaged in this would basically start fighting with each other about like, Well, is this really true? Is this really how much how much they pay the women, Of course. Saying it's really expensive and the men saying it's not that expensive, But my impression was that, like, for something like what you're saying from when they did have numbers on, there was it was probably in the 1000 to $2000 range. Have somebody a very attractive woman like fly in and do something and probably for for like, a day.
  • [40:33] Mike: In other words,
  • [40:39] Keith: yeah, there is actually a thread on that. I think I think the separate is called sugar Lifestyle for right. Did
  • [40:40] Mike: I get it wrong?
  • [40:55] Keith: I don't know. Maybe that's what you said. I remember. Anyway, there is a thread buried on there where people are listening prices for various things and yeah, I mean, it's exactly as you say. The women who contributes with what they make and the men who contribute what they pay have
  • [41:00] Keith: a big gap there. And so I don't know what the reality is, but
  • [41:03] Keith: yeah, the men seem to say like
  • [41:11] Keith: a couple $100 for a meeting. And the women say, like up to a few $1000 for a meeting and the I don't know, I don't know what reality is there. Well, I think
  • [41:20] Mike: I mean, it's sort of comport. We were talking about this before coming on the air, and it comports a little bit with what my like baseline assumption would be, which is that's Yes,
  • [41:20] Keith: some of
  • [41:34] Mike: these women are just prostitutes, but a lot of them are. It's more ambiguous, like it's like we're in some ways, they would just like to date a guy who has some money because being 23 single and poor sucks.
  • [41:45] Keith: Right? Right, Look so on tinder and bumble and Hinge and OK, Cupid and coffee meets bagel. And, you know, I've tried all of the APS.
  • [41:50] Keith: The usual thing is I will get a match from a
  • [41:54] Keith: compelling person. Maybe, you know,
  • [42:18] Keith: once a day or something across all the apse. If I'm spending, you know, a sufficient amount of time curating my profile and liking people. And you know, there's a whole science to it. Um, and then, you know All right, so you get, like, one attractive person today and on what I say attractive, you know? I mean, like, physically attractive enough. But also, they don't seem strange or crazy, which is a
  • [42:20] Keith: big issue.
  • [42:24] Keith: Ah, and then, you know, you start trying to talk, and then, you know,
  • [42:30] Keith: 3/4 of the time or more like they never respond to anything. And so you go through this thing where
  • [42:32] Keith: your
  • [42:43] Keith: Yeah, I mean, it's a lot of work. Um, and yeah, seeking arrangement is completely, I mean, completely flips the script. Like, I think
  • [42:56] Keith: there are a lot of women on their who aspirational like maybe they've heard about, you know, people having success on this site. And so, you know, their idea is they'll they'll meet a man who ah, you know, well,
  • [42:59] Keith: you know who they'll casually date or,
  • [43:07] Keith: you know, maybe it'll lead to something more serious. But you know that they have read that they can sort of, like, make some money this way. And so there's a lot of women on there, but they don't really
  • [43:15] Keith: have it codified in their mind exactly what they're looking for. Um, but when I was using it, you know, I would get,
  • [43:17] Keith: I don't know, like, maybe
  • [43:20] Keith: 15 inbound messages a day.
  • [43:26] Keith: Um and I don't know if it's because maybe I'm a little bit different than the average person on that site. I don't know,
  • [43:32] Keith: but yeah, like my experience was, and then yeah, like if you message someone, they're, like, way more responsive. Um,
  • [43:46] Keith: even once I reveal that, like, listen, I'm not on the site too. to pay for anything like, look, you know, like, I'll pay for dinner, Of course. And, you know, maybe maybe we'll go see a show, but I'm not gonna explicitly give you money. And so,
  • [43:57] Keith: uh, like, even once I revealed that, like, a lot of people are like, Oh, that's fine. You know, I'm new here. I'm not really sure what I'm looking for. And, yeah, I don't know. It's sort of like a fascinating,
  • [43:59] Keith: um, flipping up the script
  • [44:03] Mike: yet. So there's a few interesting topics here. Like Fertile. First of all, I'd liketo
  • [44:05] Mike: I'm curious. Why?
  • [44:09] Mike: Why is it so important to you? I realize we don't want to.
  • [44:16] Mike: It's, you know, prostitution is illegal in a lot of places, but But, um, you know what? This site
  • [44:22] Mike: look, there are a lot of dating relationships people have where somebody help somebody out, right? I mean, maybe,
  • [44:27] Mike: um, you get married and you help us someone student loans, or you look whatever you're dating and
  • [44:30] Keith: see where you're going here, but I'm sort of curious, and it just sort of
  • [44:46] Mike: curious why I understand. Okay, So I understand. I don't think we need to like the labor the question of why you wouldn't want to pay $300 to have sex with some woman because there's a lot of negatives there. Oh, yes. Um, I realized there people that do that and so on. But I understand why you would choose not to. Okay,
  • [44:57] Mike: But why Why do you have this? Why did Why did you have on this site this bright line about pairing? Was it because, like you strategically wanted to see what you could do without paying? Or is it some sort of moral thing or what?
  • [45:00] Keith: Ah, I think it is
  • [45:06] Keith: both of those two things. Like I I was interested in the experiment and then secondly,
  • [45:18] Keith: Yeah, like, uh, look, the get the difference between, like, paying for someone's paying for someone's uber paying for someone's meal, paying for someone's ticket to see a show,
  • [45:20] Keith: paying for someone's drinks
  • [45:36] Keith: and doing all those things. Plus, you know, whatever 100 bucks is not that much. Um, in fact, it's de minimus, but there's some. There's some, like, psychological line there that I wasn't willing to cross.
  • [45:38] Keith: We'll go on.
  • [45:41] Keith: What I was going to say is,
  • [45:58] Keith: I feel like I would feel like I was being used in a different way. And maybe I'm being used the whole time anyway. And so it's, like, silly to draw a line there, but yeah, I don't want to feel like the person is doing anything with me because they are
  • [46:04] Keith: financially dependent or they're doing. It's just because, you know, they want that they want that money.
  • [46:04] Keith: But,
  • [46:10] Mike: I mean, isn't that sort of unrealistic? Like I mean, So the thing I was gonna say, but it fits in well is I mean, let's say you were
  • [46:16] Mike: you know, he started dating. By the way, these women that you could meet on this site were much younger than you, right?
  • [46:19] Keith: Generally us, actually exclusively. Yes,
  • [46:25] Mike: that was your goal. Whatever. I mean, that was your You were. You're interested in much younger women because they're more attractive, more fun.
  • [46:32] Keith: My goal was attractiveness. And yeah, unfortunately, that correlates with youth would
  • [46:36] Mike: probably also like the kinds of things they want to do. They don't want to.
  • [46:42] Mike: They want you. They want more fun things, whatever. But it might be more open to new experiences and stuff.
  • [46:43] Mike: Um,
  • [46:50] Mike: okay, So let's say you were Let's say you met a much younger woman on this site and you started dating,
  • [46:55] Mike: Uh, and she needed help with the rent. Would you just be like, No.
  • [46:59] Keith: Yeah, I think I would. That didn't come up, but
  • [47:03] Keith: I think it didn't come up because I was fairly explicit about not
  • [47:05] Keith: being interested in that. But
  • [47:10] Mike: so there's no point in such a relationship where you would be willing Thio
  • [47:12] Mike: help out the other person.
  • [47:18] Mike: I'm curious about this because, like, you know, I think the like. Traditionally, traditionally,
  • [47:29] Mike: you know this is like was or maybe still is a common feature of male female relationships was simply that the man could earn more money
  • [47:33] Mike: and wound up sort of supporting the woman who maybe,
  • [47:45] Mike: you know, provided various things, whether it's companionship and sex or later maybe taking care of kids and so forth. So, like I don't So it's not like an insanely like culturally speaking. It's not an insane thing. Oh,
  • [47:47] Keith: you know? Yeah. I mean, let's say you
  • [47:51] Mike: moved in together like, would you expect her to pay 50%?
  • [48:14] Keith: No, no, not Listen. No, I'm not arguing that my drawing a line there makes sense and in fact, I completely agree with what you're saying, which is like, What is the white put a line on, you know, like go like I'll pay for everything except like, I won't actually give you money like that doesn't really make that much sense. But, um,
  • [48:15] Keith: one of
  • [48:25] Mike: the sort of where I was one of things that makes this site really interesting to me is it's taking something that, at least and I realize like they're This runs afoul of what,
  • [48:33] Mike: like women might say, Well, nowadays, it's not this way anymore, Okay? So women have their own earning power. That's on some sort of parity with men. And so
  • [48:38] Mike: maybe this is irrelevant now that that could well be. But certainly 40 years ago,
  • [48:46] Mike: there was sort of a on implicit bargain the men and women would make. And what this sites doing is taking that implicit bargain in making it explicit.
  • [48:49] Mike: Yeah, I think that happiness for people
  • [49:05] Keith: Yeah, I think so as well. There's still there's still this stigma against, uh, like women are loath to admit that they're looking for financial security from a partner like they really, really, really don't like doing that?
  • [49:09] Mike: Do you think that it's there's a sent a similar
  • [49:16] Mike: unwillingness to admit on the part of men that they're looking to? Because they just because they're nuts, feel better when they're with a woman?
  • [49:23] Mike: You know? I mean, like, I mean isn't the same thing. It's like men. There's there's each person is using the other for certain things, right?
  • [49:37] Keith: Yeah, well, I mean, yeah. I mean, I think there's something interesting there, like, Yeah, like I've heard from women. I've dated some fairly successful women, and a lot of them reports issues with partners where they
  • [49:47] Keith: are jealous of their of their earnings. Right? So, like, it's almost it's It's like I think men feeling like they're being dependent on can actually
  • [49:51] Keith: give them some sort of meaning or or increased value in a relationship. It makes sense
  • [49:53] Mike: to me. Does that make sense to you?
  • [50:00] Keith: Does like, yeah, like it's emasculating to not be needed financially or, you know, for sustenance,
  • [50:11] Mike: right? I mean, there are these sort of, like, incumbent roles that people kind of fit into culturally or just sort of, maybe even biologically, like these things that people expect.
  • [50:16] Mike: Uh, you see, My point was like OK, so a woman you're saying A woman doesn't want to
  • [50:29] Mike: say whether it's true or not. Let's say it's true that she wants that she is looking for a man for financial help. Just want to say that, of course, on seeking arrangement like that ship has sailed right there explicitly saying, That's that's interesting house asking
  • [50:34] Keith: is there you have in there? People still speak in code.
  • [50:46] Keith: We'll say more, Say, save something like, um, I'm looking for a mature and intelligent man who can mentor me. And,
  • [50:55] Keith: you know, show me what the city has to offer and then you'll see other words like you'll see the word generous a lot. Um, but I think in general,
  • [51:14] Keith: some women are much more comfortable with it than others. So some of them, some of them, are speaking. In other words, some of them are speaking in code because they're just playing the game. Some of them are speaking in code because they're a little bit uncomfortable with what they're sort of implicitly asking for.
  • [51:22] Mike: And how do you How would you? You mean you were just message all of them and send you would through the conversation, deduce which kind of woman they were. That's right.
  • [51:24] Mike: That's interesting. Coming where their tells.
  • [51:27] Keith: Ah,
  • [51:33] Keith: I didn't I hadn't. I didn't spend enough time on it to get good at that.
  • [51:37] Keith: I suspect. I suspect that, um I suspect that I could.
  • [51:42] Keith: Interesting. I went on a date with this girl and
  • [51:48] Keith: ah, we met. And I thought I had been clear about
  • [51:52] Keith: not being interested in paying for anything, but
  • [52:01] Keith: yeah, she was. Maybe she thought I was speaking in code or something. But anyway, that when we met, it was clear that she wanted to set up like some sort of
  • [52:03] Keith: financial arrangement. And I was like, Oh, yeah? Well,
  • [52:05] Mike: how did she make that clear?
  • [52:08] Keith: Um,
  • [52:19] Keith: she started talking about, um, how discreet she is. And I was like, That's not an issue. I'm single. I'm not trying to hide you.
  • [52:25] Keith: And, uh and then I think I asked like
  • [52:31] Keith: where she worked and she didn't want to say, and I was like, Oh, okay. This is interesting. Like, yes, she's
  • [52:39] Keith: Yes, she's making. Yet this isn't like the first step in relationship building. This is the first step in contract building. Ah, what
  • [52:43] Mike: you are. You're you just look at yourself. You're like I'm a John.
  • [52:47] Keith: Yeah. I mean, it was clear. What? Well,
  • [52:51] Keith: what What? She was going for rail. Okay, anyway, But you also hear again, just pretty.
  • [52:55] Mike: Also met with women. Whom? Where? That was not the case.
  • [52:57] Mike: Yeah. So what? What is that going
  • [52:59] Keith: to think? I met with
  • [53:03] Keith: two or three folks from from seeking dot com.
  • [53:04] Keith: We're
  • [53:06] Mike: not advertising them or anything. I mean, maybe we could
  • [53:09] Keith: I mean it. Yeah, way. Need a sponsor,
  • [53:16] Mike: right? Way don't sponsor. Actually, we're both We're both We're both set. Where? Men. Real men. Here?
  • [53:27] Keith: Yeah, that story. Yeah. Yeah, I guess if I'm on seeking arrangement, that implies. Oh, also, it does ask what your net worth is in What you're what you're annual income is and the women can see it.
  • [53:33] Mike: What is the highest? What is the highest? You can put either of those two? Ah, very, very high. Imagine.
  • [53:40] Keith: I think you would clear the high. I think the highest is like 10 million plus, but I got it.
  • [53:42] Keith: That might be higher than that. I don't remember.
  • [54:04] Mike: Yeah, I read on the Forum on the sub reddit that men actually can be reluctant to select the highest because because they're concerned they will just straight up attract baby 00 actually, that's not what they said. They said the prices go up. Really? Yeah, because if they select the highest, like, the women are definitely gonna demand. Like, I mean,
  • [54:05] Keith: keep in mind. I see. I see
  • [54:21] Mike: like the subreddit. So So I think it's worth noting that the subreddit is populated by men who are using the site much more. I would say trans nationally, more Trans, actually. And in fact, like the whole ethos of the of the sub Reddit is about how
  • [54:28] Mike: you know you need to be fair about this, provide a monthly stipend or whatever what keeps talking about. Actually,
  • [54:33] Mike: he's a mode of operation that they would look down on. I think because it's Rushmore
  • [54:39] Keith: is much more even. Have they even have a word for this? What's that? Splenda. Daddy,
  • [54:44] Mike: I've also seen Salt Daddy. Yeah, you're not providing the sugar, but but but But I
  • [54:56] Keith: actually e disagree with that notion, like, first off. Well, whenever I Yeah, I'm just not making I'm just not cutting checks, you know? Ah,
  • [55:09] Keith: like we're going out to dinner, and I'm paying for drinks and stuff like it's a plus. Yeah. I mean, look, I offer more than just, like my financial ability, right? Like, I'd like to think that I'm I don't know these mildly.
  • [55:09] Keith: I think
  • [55:10] Mike: you're selling.
  • [55:17] Mike: I think you're substantially younger than the people on the site. You're not married. And so, like, I think that you get Buck. It'd
  • [55:20] Mike: I actually think that that's seeking Could be a
  • [55:30] Mike: And I know you're putting. It's all in the past tense here, but I think it could be uninterested, ongoing way to find attractive young women because
  • [55:31] Mike: I think they would bucket you. Definitely.
  • [55:31] Keith: I think they
  • [55:40] Mike: did like, I mean, out of the women you contacted, like, what percentage would you say? Like, just went straight. The sort of stipend slash prostitution read about it was it was less than 50% right?
  • [55:48] Keith: Yeah, way less. I think I met like I think I met either four or five people total and yeah, just the one went for that.
  • [55:59] Mike: Yes. I have to be honest, like I don't I think there's I think it's a JJ. I also have the impression Justin Impression that although there are photos posted sometimes on the on the subreddit, um,
  • [56:13] Mike: that the men are kind of unattractive, like overweight, weird looking. And so if you're normal looking and and in good shape and sort of unfit the financial profile in younger, younger meaning like probably under 50
  • [56:21] Mike: like and not married like I actually think it could be a pretty good like dating venue, because I think,
  • [56:25] Mike: Yeah, I I suspect there's a lot of younger women on there that just want
  • [56:39] Mike: to meet somebody that can that they can have fun with and and not sort of being poverty all the time. Like I just think it like that. It's such a gap there financially, So big that even like you said, going to dinner, having drinks, going to movie air shows,
  • [56:51] Mike: Maybe taking a trip like these are all things that, like our sort of unreachable, I think people maybe lose sight of how that's unreachable for certain segments of society. And, yeah, I mean, like, it's not so. I don't think it necessarily has to be, like
  • [56:55] Mike: abusive toward one party, other or totally transactional. I think like,
  • [57:07] Keith: Yeah, I don't I don't think any of the people I met there were displeased with with me. Andi and I am started curious to experiment further there. I mean, other things came up, so I haven't been on there lately, but
  • [57:08] Keith: yeah,
  • [57:09] Keith: I also find it
  • [57:12] Mike: striking. The difference between
  • [57:19] Mike: what I view is I I saw, like, an interesting video about this the other day were, ah, person who was actually
  • [57:34] Mike: male to female transsexual was talking about it and talking about tinder. And it was interesting because this person is a she now, uh, now meaning she was a man. Ah has done tender from both sides and was able, therefore, like, experience,
  • [57:40] Mike: some sort of the craziness that it is to be a man on tinder. And I think that a tinder on a lot of ways, abusive toward men
  • [57:48] Mike: um, you've described to me like that could be just how, like, if you don't respond, like within 20 minutes to a woman's message,
  • [57:49] Mike: that's it.
  • [57:50] Keith: Yeah. I mean,
  • [58:01] Keith: look, the problem with tender and they don't publish stats on this, but I'm sure if they did, they would reveal the following. If you are an attractive woman. You get
  • [58:07] Keith: some large multiple of the matches that an attractive man does
  • [58:13] Keith: and 7000 exercise. It's Lord, it's not two ex, okay? It's like it's like,
  • [59:04] Keith: you know, they sign up for the site and with women, almost never pay. But if you pay Tender tells you how many people tell you people who have liked you before you like them so you could just see people that you could match with if you want to. But if they paid, I'm sure like after one day they're gonna have, like, you know, 400 potential matches and people have reported this like you can go in the tender subreddit and attractive women who do pay. They're like, Oh, my gosh like, yeah, there's like hundreds of potential people here. And so, you know, like not all of them are gonna be attractive and good looking. But, you know, let's say just 10% are right. So now let's say that they had 500 people like them. Now there's 50 dudes that they somehow need to vet, and they're not gonna like the kid. Just do that. So they're just gonna choose like a random person to message like it's It's it's a lottery system. And then on the other side, you have attractive men
  • [59:20] Keith: and attractive men that wealth and men generally like very, really get matches. And when they do, it's even if they do match, it's random. Whether whether the girl responds and yeah, I mean could just sort of be a frustrating experience.
  • [59:32] Mike: Yeah, I would like to actually dig in more to your specifics of your tender experience. We're running out of time here. Maybe in the next episode we could, because they know that you have a bunch of, like, fascinating insights, both from having tried the
  • [59:36] Mike: premium of tender pave paying for various service. You have a bunch of really interesting.
  • [59:40] Keith: Yeah, I think I have some some pretty decent pro tips for
  • [59:46] Mike: just experiences. I mean, because I think you're on the more attractive side. And I think so There's that.
  • [59:57] Mike: Well, you know, I I'm talking statistically. Uh uh. It's impossible for me to gauge. Uh uh, although well, anyway, um,
  • [60:02] Mike: it is impossible for me to gauge. Realistically, you're not fat. I'll give you that. Um
  • [60:13] Mike: but ah ah. And I think probably a lot of men who are not as attractive would be interested in the experience because you have you have had in your life a lot of success with this thing. But ah,
  • [60:20] Mike: it's interesting how it also is interesting. The hell, like there's a huge delta between the experience of seeking and tender,
  • [60:26] Mike: which makes it in some ways. To me, seeking is just a tender with, like, income verification or something.
  • [60:34] Keith: Yeah, it sort of feels like that, Um, it's It's It's even more than that, though. Like it's, uh,
  • [60:38] Keith: it gets rid of like this class of
  • [60:43] Keith: really good looking but not financially viable men.
  • [60:45] Mike: That's what I'm saying, like there's yes, it's just
  • [60:48] Mike: it's like It's like if there was a way for the women on tinder,
  • [60:53] Mike: we should wrap up. But if there was a way for the women on tinder to, we've simply talked about this before, too.
  • [61:03] Mike: Ah, validate that you actually have a certain income or net worth like I think I I think that it would statistic it would change. This is six. About who Which men got matches, That's all.
  • [61:12] Keith: Yeah, way We floated this theory around two women we know and they almost universally get outrage when you suggest that. But then
  • [61:15] Keith: that's what I mean. Why did seeking that comics ist then?
  • [61:53] Mike: Well, that and it goes back to that thing about like, uh, you were saying like, women don't want to explicitly be looking for money in a relationship. And I said, Well, does it? Yeah, is it? What is it? Why is it OK for men to explicitly want sex with a hot chick in a relationship? And it's the same. It's like, look, men like, you know that there's a lot of data that on these dating APS, like if you're an overweight or unattractive woman like you get way fewer likes, Well, it's this the same thing. It's just what our men and what are women looking for in the main. Obviously, everybody's different, but, like in the main women are more interested in like a financially stable, successful, interesting guy, and that is harder to measure from a picture in a paragraph. Yeah, anyway,