Your Mileage May Vary: Loose Lips, Small Bits, Male Oppression, Free Will, Mating Strategies, Chess Vs Checkers

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is controversial but mostly in good faith on today's show we're going to revisit our conversation last week about how a young woman should lead her life and then we have a hotchpodge of topics including. A woman body shaming her man loose vaginas and more I am Keith my co-host is Mike Mike I just ran thirty one miles have you run that far.
[00:29] Mike: Ah I probably not run Run would be the wrong word because when I did a run that long. It was extremely. It was kind of one of these over the mountain deals and so there were parts of it that I intentionally walked because it were very vertical.
[00:43] Keith: I see I have some memory of you turning in a thirty mile effort on Strava at some point but maybe um, have now I thought it was in the city. But.
[00:49] Mike: I think that's what I think that's what I'm describing it was a yeah I think that was twenty miles yeah
[00:57] Keith: I Don't know I'm left to I mean it's strange that I'm misremembering it if that's a deed. What's going on. Yeah I think it did okay well I'll look and then report back Good for past you.
[01:07] Mike: I'm not positive. Yeah I'm not sure it might have been that might have happened Okay, good for me. Yeah.
[01:17] Keith: Um, so as predicted we got some largely negative feedback on some of your comments last week and we wanted to have a longer form discussion about it. Um. How should we do? This should we repeat what you said should we have a meta conversation about why people may have misinterpreted what you said like how what? what? How should we proceed.
[01:51] Mike: I Don't think they misinterpreted it but let yeah let me really briefly summarize the position that I was taking the position I was taking is essentially that the historical ah way that. Ah, in Western culture. But frankly in all human culture effectively. All human cultures all advanced human cultures that men and women have operated. Yeah in terms of dating Behavior mating Behavior marriage things like that that is an evolved system.
[02:15] Keith: Um, organized. Yeah.
[02:24] Mike: That is close to optimal for both the men and the women and that when some when one or other the other party kind of strays away from that and that's ah it's an evolved system based on you know, genetic predispositions that the vast majority of people in the population have and then when you stray away from that you. Have trouble and why don't you describe the critique that ah you that we've gotten from a couple people.
[02:50] Keith: Yeah I mean I think the sort of like first level thing is I think when people hear that they're hearing something like I read this tweet by I don't do each decide if it was a a girl or el a girl. Um. Anywhere her tweet was something like ok I have it here. She says I thought we got over the whole people with different sexual preferences than me are traumatized and going to destroy society thing when we accepted the gays but I guess we still have a long thing to go and I think what she's responding to is well she has some fairly dig. Divergent sexual proclivities that she posts about a lot and probably gets plenty of negative feedback about it and I think her experience is that? Yeah, just because her fetishes and sexual desires are. Nonstandard that doesn't necessarily mean that she's damaging society. But I think you might make an argument or you're beginning to make an argument that she she may be or at least operating in a way that is non ideal for even herself.
[04:02] Mike: I Think that it's important to acknowledge the fraction of people a couple of things because there were a couple of pieces there. The fraction of people that a certain behavior set represents. Ah so so I think that's important. And I think it's also important to kind of look into the question of what is behind certain behavior sets so she brought up ah gays and Lesbians and there's there's a significant amount of data that and that sort of scientific evidence that that is um.
[04:18] Keith: Um.
[04:26] Keith: Yeah, homosexuality.
[04:37] Mike: Maybe not genetic but a consequence of things that happen kind of prenatally people are born gay and Lesbian Homosexual. Ah, and I also would believe that there's a percent I Personally think it's There's some evidence this is something that would be more difficult to be sure about that. There are people born trans. That they are not Born. You know they've they're mentally, there's something different between them and and their body and that's important because those are people where you're not looking for a root cause you're not saying oh this is a person who was abused or something happened to them. This is a person who was who was born that way I Also think. You know there are men who are born ah very asexual, not very promiscuous and there are women who are born the other direction with much more sort of the other direction characteristics.
[05:23] Keith: Right? Yeah I mean presumably promiscuity which is what we're going to debate here or discuss is yeah, there's some distribution and some people feel more. Compulsion to be sexually promiscuous than others.
[05:43] Mike: Right? And the the I think the challenge is that if if if I say let's say I say 3% of the population is homosexual I have no way I'm not sure exactly what it is. It's difficult to know exactly what it is um, that's.
[05:59] Keith: Right.
[06:02] Mike: Not zero, but it's not 50 either and so people hear that and they might think oh well or or talk about like women who are on the more promiscuous side. There's a certain percentage of people that are going to have that trait that are going to have that characteristic but the question is. You know to the extent to which you would generalize to all of society about that and say oh well, you know this is just the standard behavior and or or this is exactly the same as the more traditional traditional culturally um, derived behaviors and that can.
[06:40] Mike: Be be a problem for society because essentially you're then ah, you're you're then let's see you could imagine having a map for a teenager of how their life is likely to go and the map could be displayed with wide roads for the things that.
[06:52] Keith: Um.
[06:57] Mike: Apply to 80% of people and then smaller roads for the things that apply to 5% 2% 1% of people and then that's a useful guide to life now I think what people are sort of pushing for in society is either to completely erase and throw away that map or to make it to render it sort of unusable by.
[07:00] Keith: Um, right.
[07:15] Mike: Making it so all the lines are identically thick so you're not allowed to tell people that 80% of people are this way and only two percent of people are that way you have to pretend like they're all exactly identical choices and the rationale for this is we don't want to discriminate against someone or ah make them feel uncomfortable if they're in that 2% but the problem is that the people in the 80% then don't know that they now have like 27 choices and they have no idea what's normal or in the word normal I realize is's loaded I just mean by normal I mean more than eighty. But yeah, typical, that's what I mean I don't mean that like everybody's abnormal in some way on that. Yeah typical is a better word. What's typical and so you're sort of racing that. Um.
[07:39] Keith: Um, right, typical.
[07:51] Keith: Um, yeah.
[07:55] Mike: I have a set of I have what I what I would call a steel manning because I sat down and I tried to imagine I'm one of these folks who criticizes what I was putting forward last week and then say okay well what go ahead? yep.
[08:09] Keith: Yeah I was wondering if I should try to reiterate what I think you said first but maybe the steel manning will do that maybe the still manning will do that.
[08:16] Mike: Okay, okay, yes'm. But the point is I'm going to try to say what I think like in a an objective I'm trying to be objective trying to be charitable and say like this is what I think they believe and I'd like to go through the points and see. If. There are things where you that you don't think I'm being fair if you think like no, that's not actually what they meant. Okay so I just I only have like 6 things here. Um so the first one is their their belief system is that historically men were in charge and controlled both men and women's mating behaviors. So basically all of the cultural history that I'm talking about was.
[08:33] Keith: Um, okay, let's do it.
[08:51] Mike: Controlled by men and again this is a steel manning of their position. This is what I think they the way they look at it. The women basically had very little role in defining how sexual relations. Yeah, how sexual waves Do you do you think that that's a presupposition of what they say. Okay, um.
[08:58] Keith: The cultural values.
[09:05] Keith: Yes.
[09:10] Mike: My second point is mating strategies per se in the way I'm saying So Basically what I'm saying a mating strategy I mean like something that's pre-programmed into people's brains. This is how people pursue mating men do this women do that They believe these things do not exist and people's decisions about. How they will interact sexually romantically is a result of their own free will and their own cultural experiences I think they believe that as supposed to preprogrammed So like you know if you look in nature.
[09:35] Keith: As opposed to what.
[09:43] Mike: Ah, you know, ah the male fish knows that when the female fish deposits its eggs. It needs to fly by and shoot some sperm over or these things that it's not really thinking right? It's it's it's but but this it's this sort of Tabbula Rassa idea that like humans don't have instincts like animals do and humans. Ah yeah, so humans.
[09:48] Keith: Right.
[10:01] Mike: Have to reason out what they're going to do and every person makes independent choices of their own of their own free will about what they're going to do here based on culture. Do you? Ah, but do you think that's not what they believe it's too simple, simplistic or something.
[10:04] Keith: Okay, okay, and okay, ok.
[10:14] Keith: I I don't know well presumably these these dominoes are being set up in for a reason I think I think that um.
[10:25] Mike: Yeah.
[10:31] Keith: Yeah, for the sake of moving this along. Ah yes I think that plays into some number of the people who were offended's opinions on this.
[10:40] Mike: Okay, and my next point is that ah culture this this this resulting culture that is male dominated lowered the promiscuity of women. Whereas the default behavior set because men were in power in the past and men's behaviors in the past men sort of consistently across history have had this more promiscuous more body behavior that that because men were in power. That's actually the default behavior for humans is to be more body more promiscuous and only women were impacted by.
[10:56] Keith: Um, yes, bright.
[11:02] Keith: Okay, so.
[11:08] Mike: This sort of lessening of promiscuity lessening of bodiness because of male-dominated culture.
[11:11] Keith: Right? Yeah, yeah, so women's promiscuity has historically been suppressed due to ah cultural pressures that they think were unfair.
[11:21] Mike: Yeah, and importantly, men's haven't been men's hasn't been enhanced by that because men had the power so men just did whatever they wanted and men are the default behavior for humans The next one is that as females gain power. They're going to become more promiscuous because they're going to have adopt more of the traditional male.
[11:26] Keith: Um, right? sure. Okay.
[11:40] Mike: Behaviors. Ah, because now they have more power so they they will bring out their true free will oriented behavior which is hey it's more fun to be heonistic and have lots of sex.
[11:47] Keith: Okay, so the increase the the recent and recent can be whatever timeframe we want to you want it to be but the the last decades increase in female promiscuity is because of other. Cultural things that have maybe granted women more power to be making decisions about promiscuity with their own free will rather than called rather than imposed cultural value.
[12:15] Mike: That's right. Right? So as complete full people just as men are with their own free will their own mind. They look at the set of choices in front of them and they say look having sex is more fun than not having sex or whatever, whatever decision making process they use and they become more promiscuous because that's like.
[12:33] Keith: Um, okay.
[12:36] Mike: It's free will oriented. Okay, um, now my yeah, my fifth point is therefore any historical data I bring up about male female relationships is not useful and should be rejected because since it was completely based on.
[12:39] Keith: That was four I think.
[12:52] Mike: This environment where men were in control. It actually has no probative value as to like what would work well for a woman right? if you go to 1930 hey just forget it because even if a woman said she was happy back then or whatever like it just doesn't it. It doesn't matter because she was subjugated and under the control of men I mean which I think is a fair point. Okay, um.
[13:07] Keith: Sure sure.
[13:12] Mike: So number 6 with modern free choice. You have women becoming about as hedonistic as men and you wind up with male and female behaviors that are around the same that is very sexually promiscuous I think that's a steel manning of what they're saying.
[13:25] Keith: I Don't know if they would say equal but certainly much more than it's historically been. There's there's much.
[13:31] Mike: Well as much as they want. Yeah, it was much as they want. They're going to make a reasonable choice. Okay, um, that's that's basically it. That's my steel manning of their case. Um, any reactions to that.
[13:44] Keith: I'm trying to think I'm trying to think if there's other caveats and things that they might add I think there's also going to be something. There's also going to be something around. Because you're a man and because maybe you subscribe to these ah to a number of these sort of like old fashioned beliefs your thoughts on this should like be rejected almost as a matter of course because you've established that that you. Aren't an ally or something but but that's that's that's ad homineum right? That's not actually arguing on the merits.
[14:21] Mike: Well, that's why I'm trying to I mean right? So I think that's to this meta point the like right? Yes, right? You can take the position that no matter what I no matter how hard I try to come up with what I think are their arguments I'm still going to like inject some virus into it by.
[14:40] Keith: Um, right.
[14:41] Mike: Because I don't actually agree with their their key parts of this I don't agree with obviously um and so that would ah but I mean is there? Yeah okay I didn't know if I didn't know. For example, if maybe um, maybe these folks would in in in general acknowledge that people the human beings do have some instinctual.
[14:45] Keith: Um.
[15:01] Mike: Ah, mating behaviors I wasn't sure if like that that position I'm taking a position too strong of a position on that.
[15:05] Keith: They may but I don't know if that you guys would definitely probably disagree on the degree of that and so with whether there's a black and white separator thing or an eighty twenty separator thing. There is not really.
[15:17] Mike: Okay.
[15:23] Keith: I Don't know I don't know what your like subsequent points are going to be here but I don't think that should matter.
[15:29] Mike: Um, well I mean I think I I mean I think that given that that steel manning I think it's somewhat difficult to argue my earlier position right? I mean if you if you accept that steel manning it makes it difficult to argue that. Ah, women should adopt more traditional cultural behaviors because you're basically saying like what happened in the past is Irrelevant. It was completely male dominatated women had no power but bla Blah Blah Blah There's a series of things that make it so that then you you have that I think it's a consistent worldview I think it's wrong, but it's a consistent worldview that I can sort of respect. I Can't respect it but I can understand it I can understand how somebody comes to to believe that that you know this is this is the situation that obtains.
[16:12] Keith: Ah, maybe I mean you could use some data collection to try to figure out what the objective truth is um although measuring happiness and life satisfaction is notoriously very difficult to do.
[16:25] Mike: Meaning life satisfaction around like weather becoming more promiscuous is making women happier I think there probably are too many confounding variables like so I mean so matter what you there there are too many elements in a person's life. Ah for them to for them to.
[16:30] Keith: Um, right.
[16:41] Keith: Yeah, but you could I mean I don't even know but you could look at population wide um statistics and in places where people have much more monogamy and 2 to 3 child having and. You know, similar gdp per capita to places that have less monogamy and less children having and presumably more promiscuity. You could try and draw some comparisons there. But yes, the correlation does not necessarily mean causation.
[17:15] Mike: Yeah, so I mean I can I can give what I think is the best I've thought about this a lot to the best response that I can give to this although I do think it's an internally consistent though wrong ah way of looking at things. Ah what I think is that? um.
[17:20] Keith: Are.
[17:31] Mike: I Think that mating strategies are not I think mating strategies do exist that there is a basic male and female mating strategy and they strongly exist. So I don't think that the the way people approach This is consistent with what you would call free will and there's like. People probably don't have free will either. So That's like another another question there but I but I think that like these are things you're born with just in the same way that homosexuality could be born with so it's like I don't think it's that surprising that how you approach mating would be ah.
[17:57] Keith: And are these mating strategies similar or analogous to any other mammals or what do you? What? what? do you think these 2 mating strategies are the male one and the female 1
[18:09] Mike: Oh I Just the ones you would find in the literature that men basically have an incentive to have a multiplicity of partners to spread their genetic material around and women have an incentive because they're the ones that would carry the baby to um.
[18:24] Mike: Try Try try to form a relationship with the man so that he'll stick around and help care for the baby to make sure that it survives to create an intact family and those and those 2 things. But here here's the point I want to make this is the critical point I want to make because it's actually kind of difficult to argue against like this isn't internally consistent. Kind of narrative and it's sort of hard to argue against it because if you believe each of these items. It's like yeah I mean if if you don't think that people have inbuilt instincts. For example, it's like it's sort of hard to argue with you like that requires like taking babies and like tying them to toilet seats or something and seeing what happens when they haven't been taught any culture and it's it's kind of difficult to like create counterfactuals here. But.
[18:50] Keith: Um, right.
[19:01] Mike: Um, what I would say is this? Um, if from my perspective ah men and women have evolved evolved not learned evolved meaning men and women have behaviors that worked historically for thousands of years that caused evolution to sort of train our brains when we're born. Act a certain way when women operate in a way that does not follow that evolutionary path and of course some women are going to want to do that anyway, there's a question from like what we said at the beginning of the podcast some women will do that anyway because there are percentages of the population that will be different. Types of people and and I'm I'm talking about the bulk of people here. Not like the people on the edges of the bell curve when they do that when you have 50% of women that are trying to adopt vastly different behaviors from their evolutionarily derived programming men are going to outcompete them and what I mean by that.
[19:43] Keith: Um.
[19:56] Mike: Is that men are going to be following this path and it's a complex path. There's a complex sort of interplay between the male and female roles and because the women are trying to invent their own role. They're going to be outcompeted by the men and the net result of that will be in my opinion that women who think they can do this. When they are in their twenty s will have sex with a bunch of guys. Not very many times each and the guys know exactly what they're doing because they're just following their genetic programming. The women are being. They're not they don't know exactly what they're doing. They're trying to make it up as they go along then they will reach a certain age when they say hey maybe I'd like to have kids have a family. But you see they haven't followed any of the processes that normally would be followed by a woman to accomplish those objectives. It will be too late and they will never be able to actually fit back into the role that they're sort of it's programmed into the brain again I'm talking about the vast majority of the the majority of women in the middle not on the edges and they will They will sort of lose.
[20:49] Keith: Okay, okay, okay, okay, let's examine those 2 things. Okay, the too late thing and what was the second thing you said oh they won't be able to.
[20:56] Mike: Yes.
[21:01] Mike: Taking advantage by taking advantage of by men too late. Yeah I don't think you'll be able to turn on a dime because one of the people that you sent me their comment I won't say anymore about it. But the comment was something like oh I know somebody who had this kind of behavior and then on a dime at age.
[21:06] Keith: Yeah, well they won't be able to like fit back in.
[21:18] Mike: Something turned around and and and and just became a family woman I mean anything's possible but like life requires you know experience and learning and it's it's you know if I play checkers my whole life and then suddenly I say oh I'm now a chess grandmaster. It's like maybe but it's sort of unlikely. It's much more likely that this person hasn't.
[21:23] Keith: Um.
[21:34] Keith: Um, yeah.
[21:37] Mike: Gone through the series of things to refine their play against the male play ah to be a good puzzle piece to match with the male puzzle piece to be a good partner. It's much more likely to me that that won't work out sharp.
[21:52] Keith: Can we examine like one facet here I think it is okay I think many women and you see this in sort of non-coastal elite cities. Um and indeed in non-american societies much more. But. A lot of times women marry extremely young. Um they they choose a partner you know I mean she's in Eastern Europe it seems like they're all teenagers. Um, but there's yeah, the sort of collectively evolved and culturally imposed.
[22:16] Mike: Sure sure.
[22:28] Keith: Um, pattern seems to be getting married in an extremely young age now. Let's say you want to maximize setting aside the family stuff you just want to maximize lifelong sexual satisfaction. It seems like if you've only had. You know, even 5 sexual partners and a lot of these people have had 1 or 2 um, in fact, the median might be 1 ah and I don't yeah um, it seems like it seems probable.
[22:49] Mike: Her.
[23:04] Keith: That you will be in a sexual relationship that is below what you might find if you dated say 10 or 15 men if you slept with 10 or 15 men and then chose.
[23:16] Mike: Yes I think that's true.
[23:20] Keith: Okay, now there may be some benefits to choosing early. Um, at least in terms of finding a non-promiscuous man I'm not I don't know.
[23:35] Mike: I don't that's not what I'm suggesting I'm not suggesting a person get married when and and the United States I mean basically all historical cultures had had women getting married quite young say more than one hundred and fifty years ago I'm not suggesting that the thing I would say is something like this.
[23:37] Keith: Um, not.
[23:53] Mike: There is a period of time during your life when your brain is more plastic I think it's typically thought to be from say age 15 to 25 maybe a little older than that and this is a period of time people if if people who are older than that sort of introspect I think you'll see and you can look up literature on it that you.
[23:59] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah.
[24:09] Mike: Have more density of memories from that timeframe of your life. It's it's ah it's a period. That's very important for sort of encoding something. Okay, so this is like a well understoodd Phenomenon or it's believed to be well understood I Assume it's replicatable I don't know ah I would suggest that women and men.
[24:13] Keith: Yeah I think it's density and intensity.
[24:21] Keith: Yeah.
[24:27] Mike: Actually both genders should pursue their respective strategies during that time period in ways deploy those strategies in ways that they learn as much as Possible. So I'm not actually suggesting. There's probably probably the ideal time for both genders to Marry is like in your late 20 s. I'm not suggesting like teenage marriages. What I am suggesting though is a woman forcibly choosing to follow, not the female script unless they're on this unusual I don't want to talk about the edges of the bellcer I'm talking about like the Median woman I think is a mistake because she then is using that plastic period of her brain's development.
[24:45] Keith: Um, yeah, but.
[24:56] Keith: Yeah.
[25:03] Mike: And she's not learning anything about she's not learning enough about how to actually interact with a man and have like a relationship.
[25:10] Keith: Um, maybe she's maximizing learning by seeing what different possibilities are.
[25:13] Mike: I Just I don't so I I think that's I think that's I respect that viewpoint I think it's wrong because I think it gives short shrift to the fact that men are also optimizing something. That's the problem is that you're playing chess against another person. The men are here's the thing and this like.
[25:27] Keith: Yeah.
[25:32] Mike: Men are adversarial. Okay, but the women are too in this situation. Both genders are adversarial and so I think when women say stuff like this. They don't realize that they or maybe they do I I think often they don't consider that if. That the man is not pursuing his twelfth partner. He's pursuing his twelve hundredth partner they don't really I think that's the problem like they don't realize how adversarial the man is for a man. No problem like I would love to have 1200 partners and in fact, another point I would make.
[25:51] Keith: Right.
[26:05] Mike: This this gets to like sniping at the steel manning I did earlier if men were completely in charge. Historically if I were in charge of society the way I would set it up is that you have a dominant relationship but every man who has enough money or something would have like say to a rotating cast of other women. He could sleep with so obviously men were in charge because and I think that is typically. Like what men would actually prefer right is having sexual variety a point being that like men right? So Actually so that's like a little flaw in the steel manning that I thought about but I actually think that's sort of what they think is that men controlled what happened but I think that's obviously not that can't be right or men were very egalitarian and historically wanted.
[26:28] Keith: Yeah, a primary partner and then sexual variety. Yeah.
[26:45] Mike: Every man to have a partner or something but I I don't think that's right I actually think women had something to say and if you read ah you know Shakespeare or whatever like I think you'll see that women had something to say and we're actually relevant in society going back a long time. And so I don't think these kinds of things were possible for men to set exactly but that's that's sort of you're neither here nor there. Um, yeah.
[27:06] Keith: So would the recommended with the prescription be something like ah date men with an eye toward ah long term monogamy um and then.
[27:19] Mike: Um, yes, that's what women do.
[27:23] Keith: Yeah, but be willing to cut Bait if they seem incapable for whatever reason.
[27:28] Mike: Well I mean that's this is basically what women do is that the the traditional sort of incumbent female strategy for the Median woman is to pursue kind of yeah even in college or even in high school to have these relationships that kind of look like a marriage like they're trying to sort of like figure out. How do I. Create a stable relationship with the guy that was the other thing is you said optimizing sex by having a certain number of partners most the Median woman doesn't care as much about optimizing sex as the Median man does This is the yeah good.
[27:58] Keith: Um, yes, but these yes, but.
[28:04] Keith: Yeah, okay women would not would never concede that point.
[28:09] Mike: I think the median woman what this is this is part of the see this is part of the problem is that a person. First of all if a person's listened to our podcast a woman has she's already like toward 1 end of the bell curve I think people have to figure out where they belong on the bell curve ah for different traits. So it's like.
[28:24] Keith: Um, yeah.
[28:27] Mike: Okay, fine. Maybe you're unusually at one end of the Bell curve for this and and this advice is not applicable to you. That's totally fine I'm not saying everybody should be the same I'm not saying people you know women are just slaves to have babies for men or something. No not at all I'm just saying people should introspect about where they fall on that Bell curve. And if you're like hey I'm totally unusual. Okay, that's cool. But if you're in the Middle. You should be suspicious of doing something that is totally off the reservation in terms of what people historically have done in my opinion because I think you will be outcompeted by the men because the men don't do that the men the men the men have. I Mean there are alterations that have happened in male behavior but they have more to do with like dating apps like this In-cel Behavior guys just kind of giving up that's like a different thing but I think males are very comfortable with pursuing their kind of basic strategy of just. Trying to have sex as much as possible having as much variety as possible and going. Okay fine I'll be Monogamous. So I'm sort of forced to by a woman but you know a woman has to learn how to do that to a guy right? If you have no idea how to do it then you're not doing it. The guy is having sex with other women.
[29:26] Keith: Right.
[29:37] Mike: Which is my perception of what often happens in these situations.
[29:41] Keith: Yeah I mean a woman might be able to convince herself that ah when Mr Wright comes along. They'll change strategy.
[29:53] Mike: Sure, but but that's like me saying I'm going to switch from checkers to chest I mean like that's very arrogant. It's it is frankly very arrogant to think oh I I'm so smart that I can just I'm I can just outwit all these guys. It's like that's probably not maybe you'll get lucky. You could be the one it could happen.
[29:56] Keith: Now No I understand the the point here.
[30:10] Keith: Right.
[30:12] Mike: But I would be I would I think that practicing getting those 10000 hours in or whatever it is makes more sense. Yeah.
[30:17] Keith: Um, but like what is the skill they're practicing and trapping a man.
[30:22] Mike: No sort of ah first of all, you have to understand you just have to understand how men and women are different which is I think can be a lifelong pursuit for both genders to understand like oh you don't you know care about this as much as I do like this I mean I get laughed at about. Ah. Or whatever mock for things I say in terms of like ah you know women not having orgasms from piv sex very much that's true. It's just that I've like spent I don't know it's I've been married a long time like I've spent more maybe more time with women I'm not sure but like it's not and the thing is that women.
[30:51] Keith: Yeah.
[30:56] Mike: You know if they're off by themselves with no men will' be like oh yeah, of course that's right I'm not sure why I would get laughed at by women about that other than the like they don't want to be mansplained to which is okay, fine. Um, so I think learning how the other gender thinks is really important. Um and then learning how your personality can mesh with the other genders is really important and that's.
[31:03] Keith: Yeah.
[31:15] Mike: Complicated and conversely a man is trying to figure Out. You know how he can how he can take advantage of women and a lot of men like I got married in my late 20 s okay, but a lot of men. Don't do that and like I have news for women that as a man. Gets from his 20 s to his thirty s to his forty s he gets much better at playing the game and so that's a challenge right? I mean you're you're now you're now probably up against a grandmaster who's incredibly good at this and unless you're able to sort of see what I mean by this I mean saying the things you want to hear gathering sex with you. Moving the relationship on in the way he wants right? and and it's obviously not settling down because he hasn't etc.
[31:53] Keith: Right. Yeah, Okay, so like a distillation of your thesis here might be that promiscuous women do not get reps in on and maybe entrapping is the right wrong word. But don't get raps reps in on relationship relationship building with men.
[32:20] Mike: Relationship building. Yeah, that's right and I mean and and and and I admit I was talking to a friend the other day who said that um on the lovelines ah talk show that Dr Drew used to talk about you've seen sex in the city I assume you know the character character Samantha played by the.
[32:34] Keith: Yeah, yeah, she's not on the new one.
[32:38] Mike: Woman who was the lead character in the movie mannequin right? She isn't because she's like sixty years old and she got tired of playing the role too because it's sort of a stupid role anyway. Dr Drew would talk about how Samantha was there are no women like that like that that woman does not exist now I wouldn't go that strongly although he Dr Drew knows more about this than I do for sure. But I would say that that is a I agree with him to the extent that that's a very unusual type of person if you really think you're Samantha Fine you do you? That's good.
[33:04] Keith: Right? So Samantha is the like ah ah fulfilled life full of meaning constantly sex seeking different partners every week literally in the case of that show. Um and and it and is and is happy.
[33:11] Mike: Yeah, so.
[33:19] Mike: Yeah, and I would say I would say I would say if if you think you're there. That's great and just as I would say to a man and there's an an equivalent for men if there was a man or maybe not equivalent but let's say let's say a man came to me and said you know what I just don't like sex I don't like masturbating and they never been abused because my first question would be like were you molested because it's so unusual.
[33:21] Keith: With that setup.
[33:39] Mike: Hey there's probably some percentage of men that just have really low testosterone. There are and just aren't that interested. Okay, like that's but but again like I'm I'm I'm saying things that I think will be useful to the broadest set of people here I'm not like it's not frankly that interesting to talk about Samantha so if you're Samantha great good luck. You're probably not but okay.
[33:43] Keith: Yeah, yeah, but.
[33:55] Keith: But what if somebody had like a pattern where they like you know they date someone in college for 3 years and then they're single for a couple years and then they date someone else for two and a half years and then they date a bunch of people when I say data I guess I mean sleep with. And then you know now they're 26 and they're in one of these phases where they're sleeping with a bunch of people because they haven't had a long term partner recently. But they've had these like 2 longish term relationships in their past like what what skill is it that they don't have. Versus the person that instead of these like you know, 2 periods where they were fucking a bunch of people this this this hypothetical other person was in a third long relationship like are they really that much more skilled at relationship building.
[34:47] Mike: Well I mean it's It's idiosyncratic, right? I mean I think that for some people it's going to be easier than others and I think that's that's where I do come like that's why I would start to ask about what someone's childhood was like and stuff like that because you know if you come from a certain type of family you might have had more patterning you learned some of it. Growing up if you don't then you might not have um so there could be some things like that. But you know it could just be Also I mean there's some people that just are wild or mentally they have you know they're they're just they're different makeup mentally and so ah, yeah, there could be people. It just comes easier for it or they might have just gotten lucky and found a partner that was really.
[35:07] Keith: Yeah.
[35:26] Mike: Ah, good fit for them and it worked really well. Um, but so I'm not so yeah and of course they're going to be people who are at the edges of that too like somebody who who goes through what it would be sort of a normal cadence of things and as a woman and and just does not um. Ah, find the right guy by a certain age like that's certainly a thing that could happen I Still don't but I still don't think that's like cause to a argue that ah what women actually want is to be super promiscuous and B call me a misogynist for for suggesting that.
[35:56] Keith: Right.
[35:58] Mike: You know it's I mean you know I mean like it's if well I don't know if this is one of the people who did that. But I mean if you're if if you've been in a 2 wo-year relationship then obviously you want to be in relationships. So it's like okay, well then I'm what I'm saying is sort of borders on normal and reality here. Um I mean.
[36:11] Keith: Yeah.
[36:15] Mike: Yeah I mean life is hard if you're basically like I refuse to take advice from every anybody I want to figure everything out myself, Etc, etc. It's very difficult.
[36:21] Keith: Yeah I guess I would prefer a woman that had cultivated a wider array of experiences like I would prefer someone who like half the time had been in relationships and half the time had been fucking around.
[36:36] Mike: Is that because is that be yeah, but okay, let me ask you this. This is an important question would you prefer that for somebody you're going to date for three months or somebody you were going to marry.
[36:38] Keith: They I think they would be more interesting.
[36:47] Keith: I think I would prefer it in someone I'm going to marry because I can't I Yeah I think I am I I'd find people who have had a more traditional path are naive on more topics and.
[36:51] Mike: Are you sure about that.
[37:06] Keith: Don't have yeah like they just haven't had as many experiences like I mean in part of this is like might the the way I run my own life which is like I've I Just like constantly am doing different stuff and like cultivating different experiences and so. Might overweight that like yeah so that like the downside on um, experience collecting is you might get like sort of I don't know cynical or destabilized or denormalized in some like fairly important ways. Um like they might make an inferior mother. For example. But I'm a bit ambivalent about children Anyway. And so that's yeah, yeah, like if you reframe the question like I want the person that I'm like that I think most likely will be the best mother? Yeah, maybe maybe I would prefer someone.
[37:58] Mike: Well see. That's I mean that's part of the problem is so so gently I would point out that you actually sort of like you're you're having difficulty differentiating between pursuing your strategy as a dude so you have this really refined strategy of what you're looking for.
[38:12] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
[38:16] Mike: You're saying it's the woman you want to marry but who knows you haven't married anybody and then you immediately backed off and said well if I was going to have a kid I'm not sure if that's the choice I would make and you're like okay, well and and the other thing I would say personally is that I think that you are so substituting experiences. For Iq or just intelligence and so a person who was sufficiently Smart. You would yeah you could have shared experiences with and it would be just as good even if they were naive.
[38:40] Keith: Yeah I guess I fine I Do think that I think that people who collect experiences more probably correlate with a higher Iq But yeah.
[38:50] Mike: Yeah, that's right? and so you're base. So yeah and actually it could be I think I could persuade you that it would be fun to find somebody who is more naive maybe from a small town but it's like yeah I want to do all these things and like can profit from them is able to like meet you at at a reasonable level and stuff like that. Um.
[39:00] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, um.
[39:06] Mike: But it's but but my overarching point here would be that it's really really difficult for a guy to come up with the strategy for a woman of who they would want because the kids of the man has a strategy. Yeah, your strategy might all of our strategies is to get sexual diversity. Some men do that by Um. Having lots of partners. Some men do it by creating sex podcasts and so having subreddits and and the like so I would love by the way if one of these people who had a problem with that would want to engage in a debate about it I think.
[39:31] Keith: Ah, right right? Um, all right.
[39:43] Mike: I think they don't want to or maybe afraid of me or something. Um I think it's possible. They're just in that 1% category
[39:47] Keith: I mean you're you're a fairly 8 days. Yeah I think you're a fairly intimidating debate foe just because you're so skilled at it. Um, but yes.
[39:55] Mike: Yeah, but I get but I but these folks sort of Dismiss me. They're just like look this person's not even worth listening to and I don't think I think they're if I I mean if I build myself up a little here like I think they're ah wrong I think they should at least engage with me. With what I say like I don't I don't think just saying oh well, this is not worth my time. It's like and I'm not sure about that like you could reject me after hearing it.
[40:15] Keith: Yeah for me for me I enjoy arguing with you because if I walk away saying huh. That's a good point. Maybe I need to change my mind on this. That's good I don't want to like have this like insular bubble.
[40:29] Mike: Sure.
[40:35] Keith: Where you know I'm not challenged to um, you know, come up with stuff.
[40:42] Mike: And to the end to these folks credit I I did appreciate the challenge of steel manning their case I may not have done a perfect job of it. But I did sit down and it was interesting to sort of come up with it and I do think um, this does come down to like the very culturally relevant sort of culture war thing of.
[40:48] Keith: Um, yeah.
[40:59] Mike: Are We allowed to say hey the majority people are heterosexual hey very few people are Trans or do we have to pretend you know and where does that end What what? who?? who do we? What? What are the things that we have to. It's a thing of having the map where you erase all the sizes of the roads like when we when we teach our children are we allowed to say you're probably not Trans or do we have to. We have to not say that you know and I mean I confronted this with my own kids. You don't know if they're going to be Trans or gay or you don't know when they're little and so you try to be open to it but you want to reassure them I felt as a parent like I should reassure them that probably they're not probably. They're just down the middle because that's reassuring for a kid now if they're not I say hey. Good. That's cool too and so so anyway I think there's this culture war thing of like I feel strongly that you should be honest about the percentages of the population that fit in each bucket and then not and then tolerate each other. But I think others don't think that they should think we should ignore the percentages and just say look.. It's exactly the same if you're gay straight. Trans Promiscuous not promiscuous usually because because admitting that something's a minority already harms it a group already harms the group if you admit they're a minority I think that's sort of the feeling behind some of this.
[42:10] Keith: Yeah I mean it gets really complicated like you shouldn't try this at a dinner party but you know ask people with young children. Ah.
[42:23] Keith: If they think that they have any influence on their child sexuality and if they thought their child was leaning a certain way if they would put their thumb on the scale at all and yeah people did don't really know how to act when and ask that question though.
[42:39] Mike: My feeling strongly is that your thumb wouldn't do anything all you could do is harm all you could do is harm if they're gay they're gonna be gay and you just need to that would be my that's that's the impression I've gotten from all our reading. But.
[42:43] Keith: Yes.
[42:50] Keith: What if they're 12 and they're in a Tiktok bubble and they think they're trans.
[42:57] Mike: Well I think that you I think I think that's really hard. Um I like yeah what we actually have ah we have we have a friend of the him.
[43:02] Keith: I think I think you're right? The parents can't do anything but I don't know if a twelve year old who you know is insecure and watching a lot of certain kinds of content can't be steered by something. Um.
[43:13] Mike: Um, right.
[43:17] Mike: I Think that's really hard.
[43:19] Keith: Probably not the parents. The parents will actually probably make anything worse by trying to put their thumb on this go.
[43:24] Mike: That's right I think I think that teenagers I guess I was interpreting your question about like say a six year old teenagers of course. Historically you had the goth teens and all this sort of stuff and that's that's ah, that's an area where this tends to happen and I think that you um, ideally I mean yeah.
[43:31] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[43:41] Mike: I Know this politically incorrect but I would definitely come on the side of you should not do permanent things to the kid. You don't have to say no but I would say like hey don't don't don't I like remove your breasts yet you know wait till you're an adult I would I view it that way and there are I should say European countries that have come down on that side I Know the us is still like vigorously debating this issue.
[44:00] Keith: Yeah, yeah I had a long conversation with ah someone who is a Trans advocate and it was sort of interesting but I want to research some of the things he said before I feel comfortable.
[44:01] Mike: And it's super politically charged. But.
[44:16] Mike: Sure and we have We have a family friend who has a son who became a daughter and ah I get to hear about that sometimes and it's it's it's not. It's the thing I would say about it is I gain respect for how complex it is. It's not. It's not like these people talk about it like it's oh well, you just do this. It's like no no, no, it's.
[44:17] Keith: Talking about it here.
[44:29] Keith: Um, yeah.
[44:32] Keith: Now. Yeah.
[44:34] Mike: Like these are people who have a lot of problems like in there. That's not their life isn't simple and they're dealing with a lot of stuff and it's you're a parent and you're trying just like keep your kid alive keep them safe. Keep them at home. Yeah yes, and it's very complicated and I got have some respect for that.
[44:40] Keith: Right? Yeah, and as happy as you can. Yeah yeah, all right? Let's do a couple lighter topics to wrap up the show here all right? This person says my girlfriend body shamed me so last night my girlfriend saw me naked for like the one thousandth time.
[44:50] Mike: Yes.
[44:57] Mike: Um, next.
[45:00] Keith: Except this time she claims It was the first time I wasn't hard I don't really believe this to be true. But anyway she ended up calling my penis tiny cute and a baby penis I immediately felt embarrassed and ashamed which I know I probably shouldn't to make matters worse. She is a nurse so she has seen a bunch of dicks from babies to old men.
[45:07] Mike: Now.
[45:17] Keith: She also claims that she loves my dick and it is just a misunderstanding and that she used the wrong words now I don't know what to think is true I just feel like it's all going to be thinking about it's all I'm going to be thinking about when I'm when I'm having sex in the future and my sexual confidence is now at an all time low to the point of not even wanting sex with her anymore.
[45:26] Mike: All I'm going to be thinking about? yeah.
[45:37] Keith: Just feel like body comments should be off limits because you will always hurt the other person with them any advice with thoughts on the well that's maybe each should have said negative body comments. Um.
[45:41] Mike: Whoa.
[45:47] Mike: Um I don't interpret that as negative it's sort of I mean how do you do we I Well this comes down to like this like penis size fear right.
[45:53] Keith: I mean I know exactly where I fall on the presentile chart that not now like do you think this person doesn't.
[45:59] Mike: Where what? what is what is your E The how have you measured the I No he probably doesn't I think most people I know it seems to you and me that everybody should have done this and I certainly have as well. But I think that most people don't. Because most people I'm always amazed by how incurious so many people are it's it's strange I mean there's so much in the world like just get out and explore it like seriously it's just strange I Think that's a dig at me.
[46:20] Keith: Yeah.
[46:27] Keith: Right? Just not sexually if you're a woman.
[46:37] Mike: There's a lot there know there's a lot that women can explore being a woman sexually would be very fun I think um, ah but you you have to explore using your playbook anyway, how do you know? what? So when when you talk about so the length is obviously simple. But if you talk about the girth of the penis and I'm bringing this up because there was there's this australian woman I follow on Tiktok now who.
[46:44] Keith: Just move.
[46:51] Keith: Um, yeah.
[46:56] Mike: She's an escort which is legal there and she has she's very good at sizing men for condoms. So she has this tray of condoms with like 8 different sizes and she's like yeah like I never get it wrong and I just have to see it and I'm like boom you're this size and that got me wondering I was like huh. So I I paused the video and I got each of the condoms. And I looked up. They're they're how big they are and the length is really simple. Yes, no she well I mean she had also like latex free and blah blah blah she had like a series of things by the way she has a really big forehead which you told me means that she was probably a premature.
[47:20] Keith: Um, they're different brands. There's not 1 brand that has 8 different sizes.
[47:27] Keith: Now right.
[47:35] Mike: Baby and all right? Okay, yes, she has a really big forehead. But anyway, ah, very attractive though. Um, so she said that the most important thing is the Girth which is the circumference. Do you have you? yes for Condemn sizing.
[47:36] Keith: Um, it is a common consequence of being a premie. Yeah.
[47:48] Keith: The important thing for conduct sizing the important thing for being satisfied. Okay.
[47:55] Mike: Well, she says that she gets a lot of extra large guys this it's a little bit gross because she like talk about how like she'll have 3 appointments or whatever at the end of the day she said she sometimes has to like put ice in a condom upper vagina to like sort of cool it down. It's the whole thing's kind of rough. Um, but ah.
[48:04] Keith: Oh God that is yeah.
[48:13] Mike: Do you have any idea what your girth is have you measured that How did you take like a string and put it around while erect the widest point. Okay I found that I believe it.
[48:16] Keith: I Don't know the number but I know I know my percentile I've done it before I don't remember the number I remember my length I don't remember my girth.
[48:28] Mike: Okay I believe the average girth is like 4.5 to 4.75 I think mine was five so a little bit above average. Um, but well I mean when you watch porn though. They're guys on there that are much much thicker. So it's like whatever. Yeah yeah.
[48:32] Keith: Nice.
[48:41] Keith: Is 5 a little bit above average I mean I know it's only a half inch above average. But like maybe that puts you four standard deviations out I have no idea like how much variance there is in um, curth.
[48:50] Mike: I didn't do that I think it put me out of her 8 condom sizes to put me in the third largest. So I so not I think I think no unfortunately or whatever fortunately slash. Unfortunately, it's not ah, it's not.
[48:55] Keith: Okay.
[49:00] Keith: Yeah, it makes sense that Girth is the thing that matters in condom sizing because you just unroll it less if you're if you have a shorter dick but it it needs to not slide off and it needs to not be so you know you don't want to be hermetically sealed in there because it might.
[49:06] Mike: Yes. Um, right.
[49:19] Mike: Yeah I have to so I have to say that this this comment though about the having the small penis actually I liked it. It kind of turned me on because because I don't have any hangups about my penis size. So I'd be like it would make me the way I would react to that Mentally in fact I did a little when you read it.
[49:20] Keith: Rip or tear.
[49:38] Mike: Was like oh well now I'll show you. It was like a it was like I took it as like a challenge and I was like well I'm gonna I'm gonna be fine at this and I'll show you what this thing could do to you.
[49:38] Keith: Um.
[49:42] Keith: Yeah, you could You can you can cuckold this guy. Yeah I mean I don't.
[49:51] Mike: Well, every guys I mean I've been in you've been in the shower. Every guy's cock is pretty small when flated right? I mean right? it would be inconvenient.
[49:56] Keith: Yes, right? like I don't understand I mean man ah in in many ways. It's fortunate that there's this big meme about like some men or growers. Some men are showers right? like the meme is that. You know some people have tiny penises when they're flaccid but they they grow a lot that's a grower and then a shower is somebody whose penis is kind of big even when it's laid but that Meme is so like imbued into our culture that you know you don't need to feel badly.
[50:16] Mike: Um, yeah.
[50:30] Keith: Or insecure when you're in a locker room if you have a penis that is a grower or if you or if you just have a deb a penis that's small and but it's neither her crower nor a shower.
[50:33] Mike: Right? It doesn't eat.
[50:41] Mike: Right? Yeah, there's no, there's not a material in fact, yeah I know women's locker room Actually the women get much more information about your body than um, men's because they can see your breast size. So there's actually like a thing you can size out there. Yeah I guess you could see their balls size but that's.
[50:47] Keith: Yeah, right? yeah.
[50:58] Mike: And.
[50:59] Keith: Penis size doesn't matter that much I mean if you have a micro penis. It's a problem if you have if you have a penis that's below average in length. Yeah, the the main problem is going to be psychological issues your whole life worrying about whether it matters or not.
[51:04] Mike: Agreed.
[51:15] Keith: It's not, You're unlikely to have like a bunch of experiences where like women are like oh you're just too small.
[51:20] Mike: I would imagine that could be the case.
[51:28] Keith: All right moving on. Ah your your 135 episode arc of trying to get me to give you the exact dimensions of my feus will well. We'll continue.
[51:37] Mike: Oh I don't care I Just want to I just I just know I don't I It is true that look if you're penis. This is the fact this is okay this is probably the main way this matters for guys is it is a fact that if your penis is above a certain size. You never think about it and I never think about it.
[51:50] Keith: Yep.
[51:54] Keith: Um, yes, but this is.
[51:55] Mike: I Never do it doesn't matter and and I'm I'm always surprised when like yeah I can tell you have like some emotion about this and I'm like yeah I don't it't I I've like just I never think about it because like when I a certain age I saw I was a certain length that I was like oh fine.
[52:02] Keith: This is the thing the emotion around it the like insecurity around it is a far bigger imposition than like women don't.
[52:10] Mike: Yes, of course, not.
[52:15] Keith: Like there was a period where like I kept asking my partners how long they thought my penis was and they like routinely overestimated like um maybe they were just being nice who knows a Noah but I mean I have since.
[52:21] Mike: He.
[52:27] Mike: Actually the the tough part of that story is you asking them.
[52:34] Keith: Decided that like this this was like in my early 20 s like if they've since recognized that this is not yeah you right? Yeah, there's only 1 reason to ask right? Yeah yep, yeah, that's a ten four
[52:35] Mike: Yeah I hear you can you imagine if you were like an experienced woman and your partner asked you that you'd be like oh I know why you're asking. It's like a really bad. It's bad. Signaling bad. You never never should say that. Yeah.
[52:54] Keith: All right? This person says ah boy we used to talk about this a lot. We haven't talked about this for all my boyfriend told me I'm loose I feel horrible despite reading articles about how vaginal looseness is a myth I don't think it is a myth but the magnitude of myth. It's like penis size matters. But.
[53:05] Mike: No.
[53:13] Keith: How much it matters is is the is the thing to discuss here. Okay, a while ago I a 20 year old female. Nice started dating my boyfriend a 28 year old male I come from a conservative culture that shames women for sleeping around so I ended up people like you Mike so I ended up with a lot of internalized misogyny.
[53:22] Mike: Who.
[53:32] Keith: Don't sleep around even when I masturbate I don't use toys or watch porn because I don't want to make myself loose or impure I only use 1 or 2 fingers at most I know it's really toxic huh interesting that she uses fingers inside of herself to masturbate most women just use.
[53:46] Mike: What was the thing it was toxic. Oh I got it? Yeah, you're right I mean most women don't insert anything but it's a thing it happens I doubt it.
[53:50] Keith: Oh her insecurity around looseness. Well maybe she is loose because all right, let let me keep rich before I I'm teasing listeners calm him down my boyfriend however is much more experienced with sex. He's talked about his past experiences in hooking up bdsm relationships, etc. His previous relationship was longest since lasted four to 5 years and I guess they did a lot of sexting slash phone sex. So he's really desensitized. Okay, he has no trouble getting or staying hard but he's never come while having sex with me he he needs to watch born and masturate for like 30 minutes in order to come out. Okay.
[54:27] Mike: How and now he's saying it's her. He's saying she's loose.
[54:33] Keith: And yeah, I yeah right? she's lose right? log story short. We started playing with things that he gets really, he gets me really aroused I get very wet and relaxed when we eventually had sex. He asked if I had if I had had a lot of sex recently and implied I feel loose. Got worse this week when he started shaming for being loose in bed and insisted that we do anal because be tighter this warning we barely had vegetal sex before he started anal. He also made comments about how my asshole will get looser as well and one day even anal is not going to feel good for him. This guy sounds. Wow.
[54:54] Mike: Oh my lord.
[55:08] Keith: Finally cried afterwards. It asked if I was really Loose. He hesitated and said it's fine I Still like like I still like you a lot I feel crushed I don't know what to do I don't sleep around barely basturbate. It can't think of a reason why I'd be loose. Ah, read articles about how vagtal loose this is a myth but that doesn't change the fact that he can't come with me. Okay, this is kind of heartbreaking. Um.
[55:28] Mike: This is an example of a guy who is not has not refined his strategy here's a guy who would easily be picked off by another guy meaning another guy could get his partner from him because he's just saying idiotic things and he needs to stop beating off all the time with porn.
[55:36] Keith: Right? right? right? That's right, That's right, right? right? Just loosen the the grip a little bit this less sentence.
[55:46] Mike: Or you just you know decreases intensity. Yes.
[55:53] Keith: This last paragraph I was going to skip but it it has a little nugget in it I think you'll like I looked up how to tighten my vagina tried cagels and even did a vaginal tightness test. Ah she goes on the tests showed my vagina tightness and elasticity are all great I I really need to know.
[55:59] Mike: Yes.
[56:12] Keith: What this test was I don't understand this what's going on Am I Really going to have to resort to laser treatment or surgery to tighten my vagina a lot of the reviews say they're trying these treatments because they've had multiple children I'm very young and definitely have not had children confused and heard and don't know why this is happening. The only thing I can think of is maybe I get too aroused and relaxed with him. So My Vagina doesn't tighten up well now. Lady The problem is sure your boyfriends it is aterred ah I think there could be mild differences in tightness but I can't I don't think if you lined up like all the vaginas I've ever been inside like I don't.
[56:36] Mike: Yes.
[56:52] Keith: I mean I might recognize them in a photo but I don't think I would be able to tell from feeling.
[56:57] Mike: Right? I think that the tightness test must be something like the only thing I can think of that would be sorry. It's the only interesting part here for me. No no I was I was thinking that maybe you stick something in and then you stand up and see if it'll fall out.
[57:04] Keith: You need calipers or something right? Yeah no I Do you would like that.
[57:15] Keith: Yeah, you well and and to her point wetness can matter a little bit like if you're if you're more wet then there's it's It's not that there's less tightness. It's that there's a little bit less friction.
[57:15] Mike: But you would need different weights depend how you stand would matter to sure.
[57:32] Mike: That's right, That's right? so he would he would. Ah yeah I mean if you're if you're.
[57:33] Keith: He might perceive that as less tight, but that's not what's going on here. What's going on here is this guy masturbates too much and is it insensitive asshole.
[57:42] Mike: Yeah, if you're switching to anal to get more tightness like that's not that's unusual. That's not sort of normal. That's that's not typical and you're going to? Yeah, you're going to have a problem. Yeah, she'll just she's just going to meet some other guy who says the right things and then that's going to be it for him.
[58:00] Keith: Um, yeah.
[58:02] Mike: Um, I don't yeah it's ah he must Maybe he's very attractive. It's always interesting when you read these things and it's like that you wonder how the how the guy is able to you know? Well yeah I mean because presumably he's out other women that were tight enough maybe because they were not lubricated.
[58:20] Keith: Maybe or maybe he's just shaming her because he feels bad that he can't come.
[58:22] Mike: Maybe.
[58:28] Mike: Yeah, yeah I mean guys have odd behaviors. Everybody's got weird behaviors. Sure.
[58:32] Keith: Yeah, he's he's just projecting here in a bizarre way I mean maybe he's trying to get her to break up with him I don't know that it's just hard to know like those things that he said are so.
[58:44] Mike: Have you ever tried to get a girl to break up with you like why would a guy do that I mean why not I mean well you just do it yourself or just keep fucking her.
[58:49] Keith: Ah, just do it.
[58:55] Keith: Maybe you don't want her to villainize you. You don't want to hurt her feelings. This is not a good reason not to break up with someone. It's a good reason to break up with someone but.
[59:10] Mike: Right? Ah yeah I don't I guess somebody would just have to be sort of cowardly, not willing to just have the conversation. Okay, and so what would what kinds of things would a guy do to get I mean other than switching to anal and then.
[59:15] Keith: That's right, That's that is the primary word is is cowardice. Yeah.
[59:25] Mike: Complaining that it all it too was going to be less tight. It's like don't don't ah don't eat any fiber I don't want this get to get enlarged.
[59:27] Keith: Oh you can? no I mean well I mean this guy is definitely deploying a great playbook if he's trying to figure out how to get broken up with but no the more generic thing is you just stop being as responsive. You're less present as a partner and.
[59:44] Mike: Um, yes yes I think that's right I think that that I think well the thing I actually wanted to ask you is whether there's okay, if you if you create 2 categories 1 is the thing you just said and one is the category that I would call like abuse this guy what this guy's doing is kind of abusive.
[59:45] Keith: That kind of stuff.
[59:58] Keith: Yes, m.
[01:00:00] Mike: Is there a third category like will a woman break up with you. Yeah, if you're really present I guess if you're just I think I think the other category is going to be if you're kind of lame as a guy in other words, they're going to detect things in your character that you can't really change. But I think if you're really present right? exactly but I'm not sure if there's a third like if I told you you have to be.
[01:00:12] Keith: Yeah, if you're a loser.
[01:00:19] Mike: You know, just be yourself and this girl likes you a lot. You have to be present and you can't abuse her I don't think she would break up with you I don't think I don't think it would ever happen. Oh maybe? um maybe she wants to get married and then you're like no that.
[01:00:21] Keith: You can't do sabotaging things. Yeah.
[01:00:30] Keith: Oh sure you could say like I don't want to have kids I just decided.
[01:00:34] Mike: Or well I Okay I was yeah, same same. It's the same Axis I was thinking like she starts hinting strongly that she wants you to propose to her and you don't and then so like there but it's an interesting point that the flowchart of how a woman breaks up with you. This would be like a useful thing to give to a teenage boy I would have.
[01:00:42] Keith: Right.
[01:00:53] Mike: Benefited from this as a teen. It's not a very like I think I think um, the flowar for a guy is much more complex like a guy I mean the biggest one is going to just be like a hotter chick or a new chick was willing to have sex with me but there I actually think it's It's more sophisticated whereas the female one. It's pretty simple and you nailed it at the beginning there which is the.
[01:01:07] Keith: Well, it's yeah, be present. Don't be a loser and.
[01:01:12] Mike: Paying attention like not and is yes and the present thing is like it's not.. It's not be present the amount you think you should be Present. It's be ah, present around with some negotiation. The amount she wants you to be present which is going to be probably more than you want to be present. And that's going to be what gets you broken up with if you're just sort of not understanding that.
[01:01:34] Keith: That's been my general finding? Yeah um, all right that will do it for this episode of your mileage may vary. Ah we got a lot of good feedback last week I Wonder if we'll get the same this week. But if you have any yeah please send it.
[01:01:37] Mike: Yes.
[01:01:52] Keith: And if you want to come on the show to debate any of this with us. We will definitely have you on and you know we'll be mostly pleasant or at least like it I'll I'll commit to being pleasant.
[01:02:03] Mike: Well, if you're not an idiot.
[01:02:08] Keith: Um, and ah we pay $10 for any feedback received even if it's short so you can send that to ymmvpod at Gmail.com and just give us your paypal or cash app or whatever there. You can also ask us questions and if you want us to keep those private. Let us know otherwise we may use it on the show. Ah, we thank you for your listenership and we look forward to catching you next week on your mileage may vary.

YMMVYour Mileage May Vary

Episode 131: Loose Lips, Small Bits, Male Oppression, Free Will, Mating Strategies, Chess Vs Checkers

Episode Transcript