Your Mileage May Vary: Human Pheromones, Consent Coercion, Oral Demands, Men Fleeing Aftercare

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is mostly in good faith but often controversial let's see what we can step in today I have collated a fun list of topics to cover including post-orgasm pheromones after care how to give men fewer blowjobs and more. I am Keith my co-host is mike and after bailing last week because I was sick I am still sick this week and it's ° in my apartment right now. This sucks? Yeah yeah.
[00:31] Mike: That's terrible and you have like kind of a something the kind of illness you would normally have in the winter I take it so having it be hot is just makes it even more miserable I bet.
[00:39] Keith: Right? Yeah I live in San Francisco and most San Francisco apartments do not have air conditioning mine included. So yeah, it's one of the like ten days a year when where that's intolerable.
[00:53] Mike: That's right there I mean if you yeah, you can always go out to the beach but you're probably too tired to even want to venture out that far to cool down.
[00:57] Keith: Yeah I thought about it and even at the beach. It's like eighty seven or eighty eight right now that? Yeah yeah, you know yeah the water will be 55 or whatever it always is.
[01:03] Mike: Wow. There's just no wind I mean yeah, you could always get close to the water the beat. Yeah, the wind The water is going to be cold Anyway, Yeah, so you at least have a cool off there.
[01:17] Keith: Ah, yeah.
[01:18] Mike: Um, yeah, we ah we ah we did actually we experienced a moderate decrease in viewer in listeners by not producing an episode I was sort of curious about that because we've been very reliable for like over a year um and yeah.
[01:29] Keith: Well, that's because yeah I think this was the first week we hadn't recorded an episode in over a year including all holidays which makes us one of the most reliable podcasts on the internet I should point out. Ah, but.
[01:40] Mike: It's true. Yes.
[01:43] Keith: Okay, what do you mean? we haven't talked about this off here. What do you mean by our listeners went down. It's his beat. Just go ahead.
[01:47] Mike: Oh we just have yeah went down but we have still had a substantial number of people listening to the last episode during the last week um which suggests there's there people discovering the the the show and finding the most recent episode to listen to. It's a good sign.
[01:52] Keith: Yeah I would imagine.
[02:00] Keith: Yeah, my expectation would be that there's some amount of daily listeners and then whenever we release a new episode all the subscribers listen to that. So not having a new episode lops off those people. Um, so.
[02:14] Mike: That's right, That's right? yeah.
[02:18] Keith: Well hopefully they didn't unsubscribe I guess we'll we'll see next week or we'll see after we post this episode.
[02:20] Mike: I Don't think people care that much. It's mostly the Algorithms the algorithms that punish you if you don't keep well might maybe punish you if you don't keep up with your release schedule. That's right.
[02:30] Keith: Yeah, who knows we have reading the tea leaves on that one. Um, okay I have a couple topics for patter. Do you have anything you want to talk about all right? We'll see if that comes up what we're talking about this other stuff.
[02:37] Mike: I have something in the back of my head that I can't remember right now. So go ahead something from Tik Tok I'm sure
[02:46] Keith: Um, so a listener asked me with a first timer and I think by this they mean a first date. Do you have a sense for how often you explicitly ask to kiss someone versus sort of going for it or do we just always ask now and we've tackled this. On the show a few times but I don't think you and I have expressed what our opinion for the proper way to deal with this is.
[03:11] Mike: Well you say that you I mean First of all, we had ah there was at least 1 kind of I think it was a tickt talk that I saw where the where the woman said there's this thing of gather getting an ick getting the ick or whatever this is like I think it's an expression in gen z or something gen alpha.
[03:23] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, ah.
[03:29] Mike: And just meaning that a girl decides that she's no longer interested in the guy. Um and all kinds of things do this which makes sense because females are supposed to be selective in any event asking if you can kiss her. This woman said was an ick for her. Um.
[03:41] Keith: Right? So yes, she thought that it was presumably. She thought I don't remember if she said so we're not but I'm guessing she thought it was too beta to you know? ok.
[03:49] Mike: I Think so I think so it's it's It's not romantic and I think that I think I share that it can and I actually have a do you want to say what you what? you are what you're feeling I on first go ahead.
[03:59] Keith: Well I don't know I think you have to read the situation a bit.
[04:05] Mike: You're worried now. Okay, okay so I I um I actually have something that so the thing that was in the back of my head is now in the fort front of my head and it's exactly on this topic so we had dinner. We had dinner with a um family that we're friends with and they have a daughter.
[04:13] Keith: Okay, let's go.
[04:21] Mike: Want to be really careful about this but we'll say she the daughter's in the teenage range and I don't want to say anymore because I it's child. Um, but anyway so she's old enough now she's in high school so she has a boy that she's stating all right? and um, it's very tricky.
[04:26] Keith: Okay, ah.
[04:34] Keith: Oh okay.
[04:40] Mike: To talk with her and or her parents about this. They're very open which is I think probably a good thing much more open than I would have been as a kid like of course I was a a boy but still I would never have told my parents kind of what specifically's going on and so you feel like you could have a conversation about it. But it's of course tricky because I don't want to appear to have a prurient interest and.
[04:45] Keith: Um, yeah.
[04:56] Keith: Right? right? right? right.
[04:58] Mike: I Can't say things like oh I hey by the way I have a cohot or a sex and relationship podcast I Want to use this I can't say things like that. So yeah, so the complaint she has I don't think I don't think anything physical has happened but the complaint she has is that.
[05:04] Keith: Ah, right, right? right? Yeah, you can't minor for material.
[05:15] Mike: He keeps turning their texting conversations to like he's trying to turn them into sort of more sexual conversations right? Yeah I've never seen one of them. She's just describes it and she finds it kind of confusing and off-putting it bothers her. She says things like he's objectifying me and ah and the thing she says about.
[05:25] Keith: Um, movement.
[05:35] Mike: About it or she she feels objectified the thing she says about it suggests that he's just trying to get her to express an interest in this sort of stuff and what it made me think is like this could be an outgrowth of consent culture that he feels uncomfortable just going on a walk with her and then kind of holding her hand or like embracing or whatever like these sort of normal things.
[05:47] Keith: Um, ah.
[05:50] Keith: All right moving closer arm around her at the Boomby theater.
[05:55] Mike: Right? He feels like right? So instead what he's trying to do is he's trying to like get her to consent but but but because it's right, be right? but because it's overlaid with the sort of male hormones and sex drive. She is. He's he's being insistent about it.
[06:02] Keith: Explicitly by intext.
[06:13] Mike: And so it's actually no better. Okay I guess it's better because it's happening over text and he's just sort of saying these things but it struck me as not that great right? So now she's just contending with this guy being like hey say something sexy to me or like you know I don't exactly know what? but basically like trying to get her to verbalize interest.
[06:24] Keith: Right? Yeah, he's probably not the smoothest. Yeah.
[06:33] Mike: No, but it just struck me that that could be a result I don't know if you've encountered this in in dating life but it it feels like something that could be a result of him being having drilled into him that you have to talk about everything first. So he's got this weird behavior that that like I to me is very strange where he's sort of being pushy.
[06:46] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, he's doing it in a sloppy and awkward manner because that's all he knows.
[06:53] Mike: What how would you think if if you were trying to do that over text I mean sending a dick pick is the worst possible. What's the best like what's if you want to turn the conversation to sex. Actually you probably have some really good takes on this. So yeah, what? what? what? what? kinds of things should he be doing.
[07:10] Keith: Um, I mean.
[07:10] Mike: Right? You're talking about your classes or something something very bland like oh and you know and having she's obviously engaged she likes talking to you. She considers you her maybe boyfriends like that. Okay, yeah, okay so how do you now? get her in a way that's not sort of a wet blanket to like.
[07:19] Keith: Yeah, confidant. Whatever.
[07:27] Keith: I mean I think there's I think there's quarter steps toward it and then you see how she responds and read from there so you could say like oh I thought you know your outfit today was really cute or.
[07:30] Mike: Talk about how sexually aroused she is or something.
[07:35] Mike: Um, okay, okay, he does that So I and I night yes he does that he talks about her clothes a lot and she doesn't like it.
[07:45] Keith: I mean she might just not be that into it. Mike.
[07:49] Mike: She she will that I I don't want to get into the details there. She might be she might not be I think she she thinks she is how about I think she he's he has repeatedly tried and you're gonna say this is too far. He's repeatedly tried to get her to where more girlish outfits call it more.
[07:56] Keith: Class. Yeah.
[08:09] Mike: Provocative outfits via text that's too much right.
[08:11] Keith: Ah I mean yeah, telling women what to wear is generally pretty risky. You can. You can have a relationship dynamic where that is in play. But I think it is unusual and sort of an advanced technique.
[08:18] Mike: And.
[08:27] Keith: And needs to have been almost explicitly asked for before you start venturing out there. Yeah.
[08:32] Mike: You have to probably already be intimate right? because it's you're now you're now talking about sort of a ah yeah, an intimate play you're doing where it's like oh where this for me.
[08:39] Keith: Right? because yeah, the downside is you say? yeah, you're implying that whatever they're wearing you don't like when you make a comment like that.
[08:47] Mike: Yeah, but she's she's smart enough that she susses out that he just wants. You know her to show more skin.
[08:53] Keith: Right? Do you have a feel for whether she is physically interested in him.
[08:59] Mike: I mean I think she's very young and you know the whole thing makes her sort of nervous and doubly so because my impression generally is that she reveals all this to her parents so imagine having these sorts of conversations and then your parents are in the room. So I so but but I will say this I think that her.
[09:04] Keith: Right.
[09:12] Keith: Right.
[09:17] Mike: Feeling uncomfortable by him pushing it in that direction is genuine I think that he's quote unquote moving too fast or something and she doesn't like that So she's probably just not ready that she but I think she has but but you understand like.
[09:23] Keith: Yeah, she should probably be coached. She should probably be coached just to tell him that.
[09:33] Mike: In a consent culture that's dominated by texting. Ah this is what a guy's going to do I mean it was sort of revelatory to me like instead instead of him. You know the like the scene from Greece where John Travolta tries to kiss. What's her name Olivian and John yeah.
[09:48] Keith: The 3 name girl. Yeah, she died right? yeah.
[09:52] Mike: Yeah, she did but he tries to kiss her in the drivein theater and she gets upset blah blah blah blah blah instead of that that's like a classic 50 s kind of thing. He said you know reaches his arm over instead of that now it's the guy saying be a text trying to strong arm her into wearing a cheerleader outfit effectively.
[10:08] Keith: Um, yeah.
[10:10] Mike: But it's the same output like so point being like I'm not sure the consent culture really does much for you. It just moves the ball of like discomfort for the woman. It's still going to be the guy trying to get her to do things that she may not be ready for or comfortable with he's trying to have sex with her right? That's that's his goal.
[10:27] Keith: Yeah I mean there's so many complicated things I talked about this I don't know 50 episodes ago like I was seeing somebody and I asked her if I could kiss her and she said no and I was like all right fine. Um.
[10:37] Mike: Um, yeah.
[10:44] Keith: I Didn't say that I respected it and was polite but then it creates this situation where it's not clear what the next move is am I supposed to ask now every time a date ends or do I need to like wait for her to like lower the gate and give me some sign that the gate's been lowered. Like what's the next step.
[11:02] Mike: Yeah I think that I think the normal guy take on that would be. She's not that in you and so would be to basically to give up like to to plant your seed elsewhere sort of backburner her. So it's tricky for a woman then because if she wants to show interest. But.
[11:08] Keith: Yeah. Yeah.
[11:20] Mike: Doesn't want to have sex with you immediately like she has to like play some game that's kind of complicated.
[11:23] Keith: Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure I don't really have a theory of mind for that person I did eventually achieve sex with them and with her I know you don't like it with people use pronouns that way.
[11:33] Mike: Them. Oh.
[11:42] Mike: Um I just I just didn't know if it was a nonbinary person or a queer or etc or or a man not that you know of.
[11:43] Keith: No yeah, no I've still not had sex with a yeah with it true. Although I think it would feel different.
[11:55] Mike: No, no, you mean a person who's had like surgery but but you could you could have had sex with a person who identified as nonbinary or asexual Queer etc. Centaur Quail pigeon.
[12:03] Keith: Oh sure of course of course yes, ah um, okay I had 1 other wanted to discuss. Um oh on the kid I unlike whether to ah, ask or not.
[12:13] Mike: Okay.
[12:20] Keith: I Generally do. But I think it's almost always the case with people that I wait to Kiss longer than the average man does and so the answer is almost always yes that last story I told notwithstanding.
[12:34] Mike: Right? So the consent thing is not creepy. It's it is sort of romantic because it's obvious what the answer is so it's just ah, right.
[12:41] Keith: Um, it's almost making light of the situation. Yeah.
[12:45] Mike: Yeah, okay, so probably in that situation. The Tik tocker I saw would not view it as a negative she views it as a negative when the guy actually is being beta.
[12:53] Keith: Yeah I mean I think you can say something like that. Well I've been wondering about what the right way to do this. So let's say you're on a first date and you're getting a good vibe I had a date like this ah earlier this week actually and yeah I knew you were going to say that.
[13:08] Mike: Um, Paul you were sick. Um, sociopathic.
[13:11] Keith: So I got back from my trip I got back from my trip on Friday and then I was starting to feel better Saturday a bit better Sunday and then this date was on Monday and then I started feeling worse again Tuesday and then much worse yesterday and even worse still.
[13:28] Mike: Um, well maybe you got this new malady from the you realize that ah stis aren't the only actually sexually transmitted diseases. You can just get the flu sexually right? I mean just just close contact with a person can give you all kinds of things you're welcome.
[13:29] Keith: A.
[13:43] Keith: Ah, thank you for that tip we did not have sex so that is an academic point but but thank you for that. Ah so I have this problem which is I like to go to bed very early and.
[13:48] Mike: Okay, you're welcome.
[13:58] Mike: Um, yeah.
[14:01] Keith: Most of the time I don't like to drink too much and I occasionally will drink more than I should but most of the time I I prefer to have 1 or two or zero drinks and this is a problem with dating. Um, most people.
[14:16] Mike: Um, yeah.
[14:19] Keith: Prefer to have several drinks especially if they're planning to hook up because you know they're nervous or you know it just sort of greases the skids I guess.
[14:30] Mike: But as a guy isn't the ideal thing that the guy has fewer drinks in the well maybe not because it's consent problems then arise I was going to say the woman could have more the guy is going to have problems performing potentially meaning right now.
[14:41] Keith: Yeah I mean with 1 or 2 It's not really an issue. But yeah, like when it starts getting to 3 or 4 it. It certainly is has a non-zero effect but I don't like the way it makes me feel that that the next day like I run you know over two thousand miles a year I don't want to. It's makes it harder to run when i'm.
[14:49] Mike: Right.
[15:00] Mike: Um, sure.
[15:00] Keith: Even a little bit hungover and so how could I I feel like if I communicate that to most people they're going to be less interested. It's like I occasionally will match with somebody on an app and they'll say oh I don't like to drink. Do you want to meet for Coffee. It's like ah hold on. Let me let me finish my point here. Yeah I could meet for coffee but it just completely changes the tone of the date right? It's it's way less fun. It's more of an interview.
[15:20] Mike: Um, couldn't you just so for me the truth he go ahead. Okay, yeah, ah great I agree.
[15:33] Keith: You know there's very very very little chance of a hookup coming at the end and I almost never want to hook up at the end of dates anyway. But it's nice to have the option out there and with a coffee date. That's just not. Yeah, it's just a different vibe.
[15:40] Mike: Ta.
[15:47] Mike: And you find it difficult to have an excuse for why you don't want to drink more.
[15:53] Keith: Um I think I could say ah you know oh I'm training for something I'm I'm not drinking much these days would you mind if we ah go get ice cream instead like I I could do that. But.
[16:01] Mike: Ah.
[16:07] Mike: What's matter with going to a an establishment that serves alcohol and just you don't drink as much as the other person does what happens.
[16:10] Keith: Most people don't feel comfortable with that. They'll say they feel comfortable with it and then they'll have 1 or none.
[16:17] Mike: I see so your if you don't match them. They will it puts them into some weird sort of cul desac of behavior. That's not what you want? Okay so isn't this some the situation where and okay I realize that it's usually going to be Bill Cosby
[16:24] Keith: Yeah, correct Yeah, there's like a um paradox there.
[16:36] Mike: Would accomplish this but ah can't you have like a few bars or places you go to where you know the bartender and like they know to like serve you weaker than the other than your your date which in this case actually would not be nefarious. It would It would not be well.
[16:49] Keith: I'm trying to Unroofe myself make.
[16:53] Mike: No I mean normally it would be that you're roofying your date right? So if you were doing this the way people would interpret this and I can understand why is you're trying to get her really drunk. Well, you're not really drunk and then you'll go have sex with her. But in this case, that's not exactly what you're doing right? You're you have no intention of that behavior and so it's much less.
[17:05] Keith: Yeah, the optics aren't great though I would I would definitely refuse to do that and I would also raise an eyebrow but I mean if it was someone I knew maybe but yeah I mean that is I think that is sort of the kind of outside the box thinking that.
[17:09] Mike: Ah, bartender might refuse to do it because of that. Yeah, okay, okay.
[17:18] Mike: Okay.
[17:25] Keith: You get to here because yeah, like some people would say like oh it doesn't matter just go do whatever and it's like now it doesn't it just changes the cone of outcomes when you don't go to a bar. Um.
[17:34] Mike: What let me ask you this what I actually because this is I don't actually know how this operates that well okay so you go and you order drinks. What is the expectation when you first meet what kind of drinker you're supposed to order typically is it as cocktail a beer. What what do you order.
[17:49] Keith: It depends on the place and usually when I ask a lady out I'll ask what their speed is do they want to do a dive bar or a cocktail bar or a wine bar and then I'll make some suggestions and they'll pick something.
[17:53] Mike: I.
[18:02] Mike: Um, okay so you just order if it's a wine bar you order wine like it's sort of boring you.
[18:07] Keith: I Usually match their energy. So if they order wine I'll get a glass of wine. Not always, but.
[18:15] Mike: Okay, that's interesting so you don't have the ability. Yeah, you don't have the ability to sort of calibrate that way with ah knowing your beer selection really well so you can lower your a B V or something but it's complicated if you have with wine. It would be nearly impossible.
[18:25] Keith: Um, yeah I could do stuff like that too. But right.
[18:33] Mike: You could, um you you could wait till your date has to go to the bathroom and like put an ice cube in your wine or something.
[18:39] Keith: Yeah, yeah, I mean specifically specifically why I brought this up is ah yeah I had this date earlier this week and I think we had some good chemistry and I enjoyed the date. She was very attractive I would have liked to have. Brought her back to my apartment to make out and maybe more but ah it was just late and I didn't want to go to bed late and like when you invite someone over you don't know how long it's going to be like and and then you know are they going to try and sleep over.
[18:57] Mike: Um, okay.
[19:15] Keith: Ah, can I.
[19:15] Mike: Isn't that you being kind of beta can't you bring her over and then just allocate her 20 minutes or 45 minutes and then tell her to leave just tell her you your bit I mean but but actually I'm not totally kidding here like isn't that the most alpha thing to do.
[19:19] Keith: Get out a 30 minute hourglass and.
[19:30] Mike: To basically say look like I've got I've got something important tomorrow like wouldn't the woman respect that in most cases like she's not. It's not like you're trying to have sex with her as much as possible. Yeah, like having a drink with yeah.
[19:35] Keith: Um, maybe that's a good play. Ah hey listen I'm I'm hey listen I'm really enjoying getting to know you do you want to come back to my place. Um, if ah. If. So just just so you know I have something important tomorrow morning. So yeah.
[19:52] Mike: So you have like a hard I have a hard stop at 11 so you know yeah but I'd like to hang out with you more which actually yeah, you're not, you're actually sort of explicitly not trying to have sex with her then so I think in most cases she would be like huh. Okay I think you would get more yeses.
[20:06] Keith: Right? right? Yeah I think you're right.
[20:11] Mike: Um, and kind of who cares if she wants that. Yeah I mean you're trying to accommodate her which is something I have difficulty understanding because I don't care like yeah which is ironic Actually it's ironic because then what happens is you get irritated right? If if yeah.
[20:26] Keith: Um, I think a lot go ahead.
[20:28] Mike: So if in accommodating her something happens that doesn't work out for you then you then become irritated which is also kind of Beta because it's like sort of your fault. You know you? yeah.
[20:32] Keith: That's right? but I think yes I agree I agree on both. Yeah I think a lot of women don't know exactly what they want and so making things explicit.
[20:43] Mike: Um, sure.
[20:48] Keith: Makes it more likely they'll say no like I think this is why people do this sort of like inching forward of stuff. Um, right.
[20:53] Mike: Sure spoiling the frog when people tell me they have a hard stop. It always feels pretty I'm always like hu you they feel more serious and I've wondered I've had friends before that do that where I wonder if they're just making it up because they do it so consistently and it correlates I'll say this the people I've known that did that.
[21:02] Keith: Um, yeah.
[21:12] Keith: Ah ha.
[21:13] Mike: Like actually uncanny correlation with people who've gone to business school. So I wonder maybe this is a thing that's taught in and Mba programs like that hard stop. They like they have a special summer class or something like here's the trick guys and they and they calling it a hard stop is like a very common thing too. Yeah.
[21:17] Keith: Yeah, maybe.
[21:24] Keith: Are hard. The heart stops 3 oh 5 Yeah yeah, yeah, ok all right? So you can ah you can abuse it to the point that it loses some of its effectiveness. Um, but I like this general framework Mike which is ah.
[21:31] Mike: So I don't know.
[21:36] Mike: Um, right? Yeah, but I think that in turn. Yeah.
[21:42] Keith: Yeah, just make my time make that make it known that my time is valuable and put a put a put a book end on things and right? yeah.
[21:46] Mike: Right? But you're also saying but I want to hang out with you until this time but I can't get wasted because I have this thing I got to do but like yeah I like I like you I actually think that would be like that would be really appealing to a woman. It's like yeah.
[22:01] Keith: In my case I'm not lying like I do normally have a run early the next morning that is very important to me and that I want to perform well at and so.
[22:06] Mike: Yeah.
[22:12] Mike: Yeah, she'd be more impressed if you were going to like a a business meeting in Hong Kong or something probably but I'm just saying you know you can always say say that and just you could actually ah ab test. It see if that changes okay all right.
[22:13] Keith: On whatever.
[22:21] Keith: I don't I don't need to lie plenty impressive. Oh boy. Yes, yes, oh.
[22:29] Mike: Have 1 other question for you really quick unrelated to that. Um, what is the worst part about finding out that your girlfriend or significant other likes to lick ass. What's the worst part.
[22:45] Keith: Ah, is this like ah a riddle or ah or a joke or you're you're curious of my opinion.
[22:47] Mike: No, not at all I was I'm Curious. You're been because I was going over this with a friend the other day who I learned that about somebody you dated and I was like oh and then I was trying to think like what's the I kept coming up with worse things. I was like well this is bad about it and then that's bad and then it was like going crazy and so I was like what what do you?? what.
[23:05] Keith: Yeah, well I mean okay so a few bad things are one I don't want someone to lick my asshole and so I know I'm not going to be able to like fulfill that desire ah 2 is I know that they've licked a bunch of other men's assholes.
[23:13] Mike: Um, okay.
[23:16] Mike: Right. That is that one I came up with yeah would you rather would you would you rather she have licked exclusively female assholes or exclusively male assholes in the past or do you care.
[23:23] Keith: Which is really not great. What is there? another is there another thing in this.
[23:37] Keith: I Think exclusively female.
[23:40] Mike: And but this is coming in the context of you claiming not to care about women's body count and what they've done in the past and yet here when it's for oral cavity involved in Anuses. You seem to care what the gender of the anus is is. I care I Actually I have the exact same preference that I was trying to sort of understand.
[23:56] Keith: Yeah, yeah, check date. Ah.
[24:01] Mike: Yeah, a woman dating a woman who's licked a lot of guy's assholes really bothers me and I do think I think that was the worst thing I came up with a Bravo You came up with okay okay.
[24:07] Keith: Okay, okay I have an excuse I fight I I have I have a retort. It's not that I mind it's that everything else being equal I would rather it be a lower number like the thing with having had other partners makes.
[24:20] Mike: Okay, got it got it.
[24:26] Keith: Other things better like they will be.
[24:26] Mike: So you do you do have a low body count fetish or something you It's more attractive to you a little bit.
[24:33] Keith: Everything else being absolutely equal I guess I would mildly prefer lower bar body count but that's not the case and so generally I think I prefer a higher body count.
[24:38] Mike: Um, and.
[24:41] Mike: Her. I understand I understand and but but the asshole count is not exactly the same the asshole count you want to absolutely minimize that if if a significantly attract more attractive woman said look there's 1 thing you should know about me I've looked a hundred men's assholes would it make you go ah go out with the less attractive woman and looks.
[25:00] Keith: Yeah I have an answer to this. There is a number there is a perfect number on this and the answer is one. You want it to you don't want it to be 0 because then they're curious and they they they might want to go go go find out.
[25:05] Mike: Yeah.
[25:14] Mike: Um.
[25:16] Keith: And if it's one that means they tried it and they're like Nope ah I mean maybe maybe they're always left wanting like.
[25:19] Mike: I think I'd be okay with 0 Also yeah because they might maybe they just they just know intuitively I think okay anyway, but yeah, and and women's and also the other thing that's a positive I mean to be fair about if it if it's a woman is that means she's bicurious or has some bisexual stuff which is.
[25:35] Keith: Yeah, but you're getting rid of the everything else being equal thing there. Yes I'm I'm sure that having licked another woman's asshole correlates with like increased 3 some odds.
[25:37] Mike: Probably ah.
[25:45] Mike: Right? I saw a porn where it was to wait. It was so complicated a man and a woman having sex and a third woman a second woman licking giving analingus to the woman and then they switched the women switched rolls. And it was fairly compelling actually but the ah the ah the problem of course is that when they switch roles the woman. The guy's having sex with now has licked someone else's ass and so then I was acutely aware of what happened with her mouth.
[26:11] Keith: Right? Yeah I don't understand the stuff in porn where they go like mouth to Vagina or penetrating the asshole to penetrating the vagina like everyone knows you're not supposed to do that. So why do they do it in porn. Do they.
[26:29] Mike: Yeah.
[26:31] Keith: Do they do one of those cuts like in what was that movie 1917 or the one in space with George Kaoney and Sandra Bullock where like the whole thing is done in 1 1 take do they use tricks like that to clean off the guy's cock in between the okay.
[26:36] Mike: Oh god.
[26:43] Mike: They don't they don't It's just that porn takes place in like an alternate kind of set of physics and then point so it doesn't yeah then there are no stis in porn and people are all safe and there's no problems. They ah the thing I will say about that I know.
[26:55] Keith: You could still. There's bacteria in her asshole man like there's no way you're not going to accidentally plunge some out and then put it into her thatch.
[27:00] Mike: I was kidding. That's one hundred percent right? The the thing I would say is that and you know this I think people make an effort to make porns where they do the ass to mouth or ask to vagina in 1 cup to show that they're not cleaning it off like.
[27:16] Keith: Um, yeah, that's right, It's like achievement unlocked. Yeah.
[27:17] Mike: Doing a cut in that point is like is like an aggressive directorial move? Yeah, so they do that on purpose and and and because that's what people want. Um, yeah I mean there's just a set of there's like it's like the thing where they will stop what they're doing and the woman will give a foot job for 2 minutes because there's some cohort of guys out there that want foot jobs in their porn.
[27:33] Keith: Um, right right.
[27:37] Mike: Which whatever Anyway, Okay yeah I was just curious about your ass the analingus quotient.
[27:42] Keith: yeah yeah I think one's the perfect number I can see zero zero means they they probably don't have any inclination. It's possible. They have inclination but none of their partners let them. But that's probably unlikely.
[27:53] Mike: But for you given your willingness to sort of ignore the past highly attractive woman that you were about to bed if she told you the number was 101 you'd still do it. Yeah, it would I think it would play on my mind more like I'd be like that's a lot of sphincters.
[28:02] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[28:12] Mike: Lot of a specctors. Yeah, okay.
[28:12] Keith: Yeah, it's really hard to turn down a new partner. Um all right? Let me get into some of the topics I promised. So ah yeah, let's do this pheromones one.
[28:28] Keith: Remember exactly how this goes but this person says my wife's sexual interest in me heightened right? after I relieved myself now when I first read this I thought he meant that he peeed or pooped but he means that he jerked off anyone else experienced this with their partner. We could go on for days without much sexual interaction. My sexual tension would slowly build up until I couldn't hold it anymore. And I would stupidly relieve myself when she's not at home foreshadowing there with stupidly almost without fail when she's back from work in the evening I notice that she would start to get naked around the house more often. So she's doing something differently. He thinks that she's detecting that he masturbated.
[28:51] Mike: And.
[29:06] Keith: Sometimes getting out of the shower naked and just casually hanging around sometimes she would put on a thin dress without anything underneath and join me on the couch sometimes when I'm already in bed. She would casually appear naked at the bedroom door and join me for a snuggle. This is usually the sign that she wants it but usually I'm not in the mood after I've done it for the day. Is quite frustrating but also makes me curious after masturbation do males usually emit some sort of smell or sexual energy that turns their partner on or maybe it's just me and my wife or something else that I missed.
[29:38] Mike: Um I have an interpretation of this. It's going to be kind of boring but it's I think well foundunded She generally knows when he's interested in sex like what time of day and so she's showing up.
[29:39] Keith: Ah.
[29:49] Keith: Um.
[29:51] Mike: Look I mean so it's not that surprising that he just beat off. He beat off because that's around when he's interested in sex and she's just showing up right after that like so yeah, there's probably like a 1 hour window sometimes she precedes his beat off session. But if I suspect that if he just randomized his beat off sessions with some sort of like egg timer thing or like a some sort of system.
[30:02] Keith: Um, yeah.
[30:06] Keith: Yeah, yeah, right? They're just slightly out of phase here. Yeah.
[30:10] Mike: Then this would not happen anymore. Yeah, well she just knows she knows she knows like oh this is when I can get sex out of him and she's probably very confused because he's rejecting her sometimes right I don't so what I've read is that there are no vabbing.
[30:19] Keith: Sometimes but not others.
[30:28] Mike: Vabbing notwithstanding I've read that there are actually no confirmed human pheromones. It's not like there. There is no conclusive proof that humans have pheromones that change Alter Behavior I don't know if you've read the same thing.
[30:38] Keith: I Have not read that I suspect that is true. But I mean yeah, this reminds me of like astrology I'm sure there are people that strongly insist otherwise given.
[30:46] Mike: Um, it's yeah I don't know.
[30:54] Keith: Absolutely 0 evidence but I'm not aware of that whether there's a lack of evidence or not.
[30:59] Mike: Well, it would be difficult to prove a negative in fact, impossible proving proving that people have no reaction to pheromones is impossible but but nobody's been able to show a definite link positive link. So that's suggestive that that pheromones play little to no role. Um, yeah I mean I think.
[31:09] Keith: Right? right.
[31:16] Mike: Yeah, so so I don't and and I don't know why a guy would give off anything after beating off it doesn't he doesn't is the answer although people claim they can smell semen like you know if a guy's leaving his semen out in a paper towel or something or.
[31:24] Keith: Brent.
[31:31] Keith: Maybe I mean I think you can smell when sex has been had in a room because there's all kinds of fluids that get emitted. But but.
[31:34] Mike: Right.
[31:42] Mike: Sure sure. But I mean maybe that's just maybe you would be confused by a stuffy room that didn't have those fluids no like God No no nothing.
[31:50] Keith: I Mean have you noticed anything when you go into your son's bedroom I'm sorry I'm sorry I had to okay, that's great. That's great. Um, let's say this reminds me of something I've been waiting to talk about for a while. Ah.
[32:00] Mike: Not a thing. Sufficient.
[32:08] Keith: Want to save this now. Let's do now. Um, let's say you know you're going to get to have sex with you know the most beautiful person and you you just get to spend one night with them. So it's like ah it's like the fantasy suite in the bachelor and except in this case, it's it's one woman. not not 3 ah
[32:27] Keith: How many hours or days or weeks leading up to this encounter would you not masturbate for.
[32:35] Mike: Okay, so so this comes down to the question of like how long how what? at what point do you kind of reach a stable state and I think that um well see so the problem here I think we may have discussed this before is that I think many men don't even really know what this where when the stable state is reached.
[32:50] Keith: I Certainly certainly don't let enough time pass to to find out.
[32:52] Mike: Right? because men exactly you would have to have had an experience where you didn't masturbate for say like say three months or something and so then you could kind of measure and actually just doing the experiment in a principled way would take quite a long time because you'd have to not masturbate for two weeks then masturbate.
[32:59] Keith: Yeah I mean yeah.
[33:09] Keith: If.
[33:10] Mike: And not basturbate for two weeks in a day then masturbate right? and so on so forth and be difficult to know intuitively. Um I suspect that a stable state has reached 5 to seven days or something like there's some reasonable amount of time but I don't think it takes a month intuitively.
[33:23] Keith: Do you think your performance would be too eager like is there risk of going too long.
[33:34] Mike: Ah, let's see well I I'm not entirely sure I mean what? what is the okay can you? What is your the the sort of yeah, what's the premise behind why you would not masturbate me. There's a lot of guys that would masturbate on purpose to not prematurely ejaculate.
[33:39] Keith: Yeah, what's the goal here I don't know. Okay, let yeah, right? right? Ok, excellent question. Let's say it is something like the.
[33:51] Mike: What's your goal.
[33:58] Keith: The bachelor fantasy suite. So you're going to get to spend one night with this person and you really want to impress them. So if you think that having sex multiple times and having multiple orgasms will press them. You want to do that if you think that having a humongous load is something she would like yeah you you. You could prepare for that if you think lasting as long as you you possibly can. So maybe you don't want to be eager at all, you get optimized for that. But yeah, you can choose what you're trying to optimize.
[34:17] Mike: Um, well percentage wait wait what percentage of women.
[34:27] Mike: What percentage of women. Do you think would would given that menu pick up massive load.
[34:35] Keith: Um I don't know I mean.
[34:36] Mike: Actually actually what's your intuition as to what the woman would would want optimized for you gave a list of things. Let's say we could add others I mean you could just imagine other things you could add to that list for a first for the bachelor's suite. What do you think the woman's a typical like what are the top 3 things that a woman would like to have happen or in the bachelorette suite.
[34:49] Keith: Um.
[34:54] Keith: Yeah, can I answer can I answer the load question first I've had a lot of women comment on load volume now I don't know if that's just because you know it's something.
[34:56] Mike: With the guy. What? what's what's number 1 in your opinion. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. Oh my gosh.
[35:10] Mike: Can you give me some of the comments some samples.
[35:15] Keith: Yes, ah it's normally something about how it's a lot positively.
[35:18] Mike: And what? what? how exactly do they phrase that oh come on. Do they say like first of all, where is the load when they say that typically.
[35:30] Keith: Um, well I mean there have been different situations. Ah.
[35:33] Mike: Right? I mean are they eating it are they pretending they're getting pregnant or is it like on their stomach or ass or something else.
[35:42] Keith: Ah I have had I mean Love Ok I have come in all the places I have come in a condom I've come in someone's mouth I've come. Yeah I've come in all the places and so and and I've had comments on it in in all of the places as well. Yes I have yes I have yeah yeah.
[35:45] Mike: Um, well it matters. Okay, so okay, fine. Let's break this down. So if it's no, you haven't no you haven't because if in a condom in a condom. You got to shut up.
[36:00] Keith: I have had like longer term partners where we were using a condom and like sometimes they would dispose of it and they they might mention in passing.
[36:06] Mike: Okay, so I just want to so you hand them the condom or do they take it off your penis. How does it? Okay, whatever they have it in their hand and they look at the condom and they say Wow that reservoir tip is fucking full. That's what they say something like that.
[36:13] Keith: I Don't know. Yeah, maybe yes.
[36:21] Keith: Yeah, although that was more sophisticated language probably than.
[36:25] Mike: They say that's a lot of spunk. What do they? What word? do they use for the semen you made a lot or something they just say something like that I don't believe they say that I think they say I think they say something like I'm going to guess that the yeah the the.
[36:31] Keith: Um, yeah, this is this is a substantial amount of seamen in this vessel.
[36:44] Mike: Kind of Modal thing that they say is something like Wow you made a lot today. Um, right? Yeah um I think they're trying to feign interest I think they're trying to create an interest. Yeah.
[36:47] Keith: Yeah, something like that. It's boring though. What a but that's a lot of come Wow That's a lot of come. Yeah and that's where I was actually trying to go with this I I think it's like they think it's a thing that they should remark on.
[37:04] Mike: Yeah I mean it's well is it I mean you remember it like obviously it worked.
[37:09] Keith: Yeah, but I don't know for starters for starters unless it's in a condom. You don't have that much of an idea of how much there is right? like if you come in their pussy. You don't like you can't see.
[37:15] Mike: Um I have to say that it it would bother me.
[37:24] Mike: Yeah, no nobody knows yes.
[37:28] Keith: How much there is or like where it goes and even if you come on them like some gerbils down the side. Some yeah, it's just really hard to yeah, you just can't get a good volume measurement.
[37:34] Mike: Right? How deep their belly button is might be relevant and in their mouth. Okay, so is that's interesting. So you so you're actually making the argument which is basically exactly the opposite of what I was saying that.
[37:41] Keith: If you had to like estimate milliliters. You're going to be off by 50% and that's the airbar.
[37:53] Mike: The condom is really the only time they could know and the rest of it's just nonsense urgent that I'm sure there's such a condom. Um, yeah sure yeah of Millil leaders. Yeah, but ah, the okay.
[37:55] Keith: Um, they should put little hash marks on it.
[38:00] Keith: Like you know the shot classes that have like decili or whatever I guess it's Mill leaders.
[38:12] Mike: And they I just think that they're trying to turn you on. Keep you excited stuff like that I don't I don't think that come quantity back to this point of what a woman would be looking for I don't think there. There's a small contingent of women where that would be important to them. But I think it's it's close to 0
[38:26] Keith: I Mean you could come up with a theory of mind here where they would like it. They might feel that they have particularly been attractive to me and that might help their ego and so they're they're pleased with themselves that I was.
[38:41] Mike: Okay, is that the tone when you've had these various women comment on your um volume did did it come across as that that they're like wow I really turned you on today.
[38:42] Keith: So effusive with with seminal fluid.
[38:47] Keith: Yeah, okay, you're asking me to speculate on whether I think that's what was going on I don't know I think your theory is probably right? They're just making conversation.
[38:56] Mike: Um, yes.
[39:00] Mike: Right? And then don't think I mean it's probably not clear to them I don't know I don't no no, it's not that I Just don't know that a woman would necessarily so find a link between semen volume and how excited the guy was I Guess there's a natural. There's an us I think it'd be natural to assume that such a thing.
[39:06] Keith: Speak for yourself. Mike that's good.
[39:13] Keith: Oh sure.
[39:19] Mike: I'm not even sure I think I think it has more to do with how long it's been since you came okay, right? But okay, but hang on. So what do you think the bachelorette in the fantasy suite. Yeah, what is what is the number 1
[39:22] Keith: I Think hydration matters a lot to like maybe whether you've been drinking matters I'm not sure.
[39:33] Keith: Is optimizing for I don't know but number one here here are some of the things going through her mind she wants him to be in shape. She wants him to be the right amount of dominant or less dominant and different women have different preference of.
[39:39] Mike: Thing. Okay, okay. Um, right? yes.
[39:51] Keith: Preferences there so you got to like try and read the room. She probably wants.
[39:52] Mike: Right? And that and that has something to do with something you would probably call chemistry like that's what that is. It's like the guy should they'll say chemistry what that means is like he's doing the things that fit the Jigsaw puzzle or something I think yeah.
[40:04] Keith: Right? right? She probably wants him to be a giving lover so he wants him to go down on her. Um or at least make an effort although you know if it's the bachelorette and she has to have sex with 3 men and 3 nights you know you can imagine her being in her head a little bit.
[40:13] Mike: Um.
[40:23] Keith: Maybe not. Ah.
[40:24] Mike: Because that she's making the guy eat the cream pie of the last guy or something else because I would make if I were the bachelor if I were the guy in that situation I'd be in my head we've discussed this before I would be if I was number one that's fine but number 2 and 3 I'd be worried about that.
[40:28] Keith: No well, there's that.
[40:38] Keith: Okay, game theory here. Let's say your guy number 3 so she's had sex with you. Don't know for sure that they separate the men they sequester them from each other.
[40:42] Mike: Oh god.
[40:49] Mike: Um, but you can you? yeah the odds that she set sex with 1 of them are very high.
[40:51] Keith: They did a season Mike where they didn't sequester them from each other when they were at the final location and so the 3 women it was just you know drama of the women like seeing what time the other would came back in the morning and but then they have to like say like oh how did it go and like what is she supposed to say like oh yeah.
[40:56] Mike: Ah, what happened.
[41:05] Mike: Um, it's kind of clever.
[41:09] Mike: My mouth's a little dry. Okay, so I'm so I'm the third guy and what.
[41:10] Keith: Fucked up like it's sort of a weird right? Yes, and ah she invites you back and you know things get hot and heavy and she says oh I'm on birth control Now she's implying there that.
[41:26] Mike: Um, type.
[41:28] Keith: Ah, you don't need to use a condom but ah I could be yeah maybe she's saying that to see how responsible you are? Yeah ah well and but then also me you know you know that she probably said that to the 2 men the 2 nights before. So let's say.
[41:28] Mike: It could be a. It could be a test. It could be a test though right right.
[41:46] Keith: You're confident. It's not a test. She's like she thinks she's offering you to have condomless sex because she thinks that's what you want, but you're also faced with this. You know, dilemma here which is that she might have said the same thing to the guys the 2 nights before.
[41:56] Mike: Yeah I got it. So here's what I would say as I sit to you now as I sit here now I would say that it bothers me. However I strongly suspect meaning the whole thing would bother me I wouldn't like interacting with the guy before me sperm. However I strongly suspect that.
[42:15] Keith: Yeah, the premise. Ah.
[42:21] Mike: Be this on the bachelor. The bachelorette at a bar. Whatever that if it's a novel woman that I find attractive that I wouldn't care I strongly suspect that like I don't like saying that because it's sort of embarrassing but I and I haven't been in this situation really? but I strongly suspect that I'd be like whatever and like it would my disgust.
[42:36] Keith: Um, yeah.
[42:41] Mike: Reaction would be so reduced that I I would just be like oh that's hot or something I would I would I would somehow like my brain would decide that was awesome like this is so sexually charged. Yeah, probably that? oh.
[42:49] Keith: Right? What do you think the right play is ah you're trying to win the show. You're trying to win the show. Do you think that you should say oh makes me a little bit uncomfortable that 2 men were yeah I don't think so either.
[43:01] Mike: Oh no, definitely not because yeah, you're sex slut shaming or then.
[43:06] Keith: But right? So then you're just like so then you just say like oh that's great I didn't want to use a condom either or.
[43:16] Mike: That's right? Well it would depend on whether I mean how attracted I was if I weren't attracted to her. It would be very hard and I think there have been situations where yeah that plane just went over my house too. A fleet week is starting. Yeah, ah there there have been situations where guys noped out during that.
[43:23] Keith: Um, yeah, the air shows in town this weekend. Yeah.
[43:32] Mike: Ah, fantasy sweet thing and I've wondered before whether that was why whether they just weren't attracted enough that they were just like yeah this is I can't and then it it yeah sort of destroys that relationship because he's basically telling her that he's grossed out by her and that's going to be really painful for a woman.
[43:45] Keith: I suspect I so I suspect the ST I test everybody.
[43:55] Mike: Um, it's not okay, but you it's not that it's the it's the fact that like some other guy's penis was inserted in her. Yeah.
[43:58] Keith: Yeah I don't like that. But I think that winning the show would be worth it.
[44:06] Mike: Yeah I mean you? oh oh yeah, but I don't Oh okay, sure if I just wanted to win the show. Okay sure I could I could overcome all kinds of disgusted reflexes just to win a show. It's like ah you know people who ate Donkey Semen on fear fact, whatever sure actually that would be well anyway Donkey seem. It's pretty bad.
[44:14] Keith: Right? right? right? are they letting the tarantulas crawl on their face or whatever it is yeah.
[44:24] Mike: Um's one of the worst. Oh just it was It was one of the grossest things that was on fear factor before it got canceled something like that. No they they had to shoot it they it was more than a shot. It was like a leader a court or something it was fucking disgusting.
[44:24] Keith: Ah, happy you know are they really had dogy semen and they had to shoot it or something take a shock glass I mean ah Jesus Christ
[44:39] Mike: Probably less than a leader but it was you know, meaningful amount. It's good. Keep that's you're like this disgusting I could do that I here's the thing I Want to say it is.
[44:41] Keith: I think I could do that.
[44:47] Keith: Um, it is disgusting but like having a Disgust reflex is natural but like sometimes you got to suppress it man and and bite the bullet and and go for the win. That's right.
[44:58] Mike: It would just depend on how much money was the the the thing I want to say well thing I Want to say I want to admit to here. So I said that um I'm I'm as I sit here now I would be grossed out by various things like that. But I can't even say for sure if if if it was a novel woman and I was super attracted to her.
[45:14] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, you're horny.
[45:14] Mike: Particularly if I was like 25 years old and I just saw another guy and I just saw another guy of sex with her I'm not sure what I would do I can't even be sure about that because I just think yeah, it's yeah but I think I might overcome that.
[45:24] Keith: Um, it's a turnoff. It's a huge turnoff.
[45:30] Keith: Oh oh I thought you would go in the other direction I definitely could overcome it I could definitely overcome it.
[45:31] Mike: Right? I might overcome I might overcome I think I think I I could no I'm saying okay well I'm just agreeing with you then like I like to say oh I Yeah I think that's right.
[45:41] Keith: I Think we're meant to I think biologically we're meant to like you've you've talked before about how like the penis head is shaped to like literally plunge out the semen from the previous man. So there's nothing inherently biologically telling us not to do that I don't think.
[45:50] Mike: Um, yeah.
[45:53] Mike: And arguably arguably Maybe that's why our tongues are so flexible and supple is they're made also to lick out. Whatever's in that orifice. Maybe the male tongue has like some extra stuff on it to sorry about that.
[45:58] Keith: You off. That is yeah okay, let's move On. We've really triggered by Disgust error. Oh sorry Oh yeah, yeah, I'm Gosh.. There's so much stuff to to discuss there. Yeah.
[46:12] Mike: Um, yeah, wait wait wait wait wait but what it hang on you. Never even said what was the number 1 thing you think the bachelor at once. Let's just try to get a quick list for our listeners here.
[46:24] Keith: Yeah, but no I did I think that ah she wants him to be. You know the right amount and I'm dominant. She wants him to be the right amount of giving she wants them. You know there's like these various things and I.
[46:29] Mike: Oh you said it all? Okay, yes, let me see if I think anything different about that. Um, it's it's yeah I think the main thing is that like she wants chemistry. It's all a chemistry and she wants it to sort of be very middle of something She doesn't want it to be extreme in any direction. It needs to be sort of.
[46:44] Keith: Yeah, yeah, there's probably some amount of romance. She's hoping for but like different women are different. Some might want a ton some might want none. You know it's you got to read the room and that's that's why it's a game I guess.
[46:47] Mike: Yeah, right right? Yes, Yes, she wants to test how well he functions in her environment.
[47:02] Keith: Right.
[47:04] Mike: Um, but she doesn't want but the point is that I don't yeah I don't think men think in terms of like semen volume or how long you last or how short you last or how explosive your orgasm is or something or how whether she has an orgasm. It's I don't think it's any of those things. It's this very squishy subjective thing.
[47:16] Keith: No yeah, the hypothetical I was sitting up earlier is yeah, it's not a great hypothetical because ah when I first thought it up I was thinking Oh what would maximize my experience and then I kind of switched it to what would maximize her experience and those are different things. Um.
[47:28] Mike: Right? right? right? right.
[47:33] Keith: And then whether you're trying to win a show or not was further conflating it anyway, let's move on this person says what are your thoughts on after care as men I think this will be a quick one because I think you're going to have a quick answer but let's go I'm a 24 year old female speaking for my experience only but I've never met a man who'd want to cuddle after sex. They only do it if I ask and not.
[47:37] Mike: Um, yeah.
[47:41] Mike: Us.
[47:50] Mike: Now.
[47:51] Keith: Without rolling the rise and shifting uncomfortably uncomfortably after 3 minutes I understand that not everyone is comfortable with physical touch but is it really that gross to hold me after literally being inside of me absence of after cameras me feel like a sex doll like they got what they needed and immediately lost all interest in me is it different for guys. Is it a hormone difference thing or am I it just a very unlucky woman. Please be honest.
[48:12] Mike: Did anybody tell her the truth is the question I mean so so the answer to that is Nos well maybe we'll say different things. Ah well we can be honest, do you want? who do you want to go first. Okay.
[48:15] Keith: You know the truth right? good but should we both write it down and hold it up to the screen to see if we say the same thing I'll go first. Ah, she's picking poorly now maybe she has no choice. But yeah, the men she's she's choosing our lane.
[48:29] Mike: That's the key. Oh okay so I disagree a little bit with that I think that she's unattractive. So the guy the guy went yeah but there isn't necessarily that doesn't necessarily exist.
[48:32] Keith: Well yes, but she could she should pick men that find her attractive I guess is what I'm say we're saying the same thing. Yeah, you might say that's the null set. Yeah, okay yeah.
[48:45] Mike: Because she might be sufficiently unattractive I mean this is the thing is that ah that then that often relates to weight frankly and in this day and age Obesity. Um, the yeah, the thing that's going on in his head is yeah when he's horny his feet. It feels good. All that sort of stuff right? afterward. Yeah, a guy can enjoy sort of being with a woman if he feels sort of pride and good feelings about what's happened. Yeah, if he doesn't and he's like grossed out by her. It's really yeah and it's going to get amplified by the fact that his sex drive is gone to 0 So He's yeah, unfortunately, okay.
[49:06] Keith: Yeah, if you like sir.
[49:13] Keith: Yeah, right? Yep, Okay yeah I mean I I think I'm normally into cuddling after and ah yeah, you can imagine in a parallel. Thread somebody saying like men always want to cuddle with me after and it's like oh let me see a picture of you I bet pet you're hot.
[49:36] Mike: Yeah I mean I think so I still like for me like I don't think I think I have less of a desire for that generally. But but what you're saying is right because the guy will be like proud of himself. He'll be like look at you and like very quickly like some amount of sex drive will revive like maybe in 3 minutes or something you'd be like oh this is an impressive young. Specimen I have here? yeah.
[49:55] Keith: Right? right? All right? Let's do 1 more topic. Ah, it's a bit of a long one. But I think I think it's worth it. Is there a way to gently tell my boyfriend I prefer to perform less oral that won't result. And Anger Slash hurt feelings throw away count. We've been in a relationship for over four years our relationship is fine and our sex is fine I'm just not in the moon as ah as often as he is he wants oral sex a lot and I almost always do it and I'll even put porn on him while I do it to try to make it more fun etc. I want him to be happy. Initiate also but these days with how often he initiates I don't get the opportunity as much However I'm rarely horny I'd rather cuddle and watch a movie but almost every movie we try to watch leads to him pushing my head down for a blow job again and I end up missing a good chunk of it. It's like yeah, that's super glassy.
[50:45] Mike: It's a smooth guy and she ends up she ends up missing it. That's good.
[50:49] Keith: Um, time right? right? Yeah, so are yeah, she's describing that. Yeah, she's rarely horny. She just wants to watch a movie. This guy is always horny.
[50:55] Mike: By the way, there's a yeah, there's a point I want to? there's a point I want to make here which is there's a pretty fine line between what she's describing there and what someone could describe as date rape like she's like look I don't want to have sex with this guy.
[51:11] Keith: Right? um.
[51:11] Mike: But she's interpreting it like there's some switch that's flipped some bit thats flipped in her head so she still interprets it as okay and not illegal and not a cry. Not bad in the context of this relationship. It's nice. Ah f 18 or something. Um, but but yeah, but this story could easily turn into.
[51:15] Keith: Um, right? Yeah yeah, goes on f eighteen yeah.
[51:30] Mike: Could be described the other way where it's like look. He's raping my mouth Anyway, go on. Yeah and she's decided that her that.
[51:33] Keith: Yeah I mean she's fully disclosed. She doesn't want to have sex. She's just decided that she should and so.
[51:45] Mike: And this is a thing that is a source of confusion for men. It's not really confusion. It's just the way the world is but it makes it difficult for men to navigate consent is that she's basically saying well in this situation. It's okay that I'm not consenting I mean she's not happy about it. But it's not a crime right? and so then the guy. What's the guy learning.
[51:55] Keith: Um, right right.
[52:02] Mike: Guy learned in the zoning That's okay so let's say he has another girlfriend. He does this and now he she says he's committed a crime. He's confused by that now I'm not excusing what the guy's doing. It's just you can see how like this leads to like things just very complicated situations.
[52:05] Keith: Right.
[52:15] Keith: Right? Yep I agree with all that ah she goes on I'm tired of being covered in saliva and tasting his fluids. It's gross and it's usually after I've already bathed that he initiates this and my hair and skincare gets messed up tired of hurting the back of my mouth and rubbing my lips raw and gagging. Even when I have wisdom tooth pain or allergies. He still wants me to do it. He makes me do it before I leave the house to before he goes to work then I have to rush to fix his breakfast and lunch and if it's a little undercooked because I had literally 5 minutes he gets mad and blames me for not making him come faster.
[52:45] Mike: More.
[52:48] Keith: Used to love his penis but this is getting old okay hadn't read that paragraph before that that adds a little bit more context here. But yeah I mean importantly, he's basically raping her ah he doesn't put nearly as much effort into pleasuring me as I do for him I'm shocked So I'm starting to get resentful to I feel better masturbating alone most days.
[52:52] Mike: Um.
[53:03] Mike: Starting.
[53:06] Keith: Yeah, just just a little bit resentful I've gotten him 2 flashlights which he hates they're too cold to loose even though I bought a warmer if one was an expensive sucking flashlight. Wow she's really tried here I have get accessories for your sex toys. Ah.
[53:08] Mike: And yeah.
[53:18] Mike: Um, and a warmer a flashlight warmer. Ah Jesus man.
[53:26] Keith: I offer hand jobs instead and he gets stary and turns them down I could give myself a hand job better than you can't I all that that's it quotes I asked if we could just basturbate to pour together but he thinks that's weird sometimes I'll switch to p I v writing him to finish the job but he wants that I'm trying to get it over with faster. Like it's my job to act like a twenty four seven sex doll because that's what I feel like oh I also told that we could open our relationship on his side if he wants more sex but he said he only wants it with me I can't get a break. He has a fragile ego so that sure how to ask him to quit asking for blowjobs. He probably thinks I'm being a bitch.
[53:48] Mike: Wow.
[53:59] Keith: Usually when I communicate straightforwardly he gets an attitude and says fine. We're never doing it again. Then we go back to normal the next day as if nothing was resolved, please give me advice so I just want to point out again here is another woman that definitely doesn't like giving blowjobs and her boyfriend definitely thinks she does and.
[54:15] Mike: How he doesn't well makes wait what more from that makes you think he thinks she likes it.
[54:19] Keith: All right fine I Knew you were going to say this? ok he doesn't know that it's this bad.
[54:26] Mike: Okay.
[54:28] Keith: So there's like this big dichotomy between what he thinks she wants and what she actually wants. She's lying. She's pretending to like blowjobs when she doesn't.
[54:41] Mike: Okay, fine. She's making it it. It's unclear to him. Maybe the situation's not clear. Um, so the yeah okay I mean yeah, so are you familiar and you're a sports hound sports mavens you probably are familiar with.
[54:48] Keith: We don't need to go. We don't need to negotiate that today but I just wanted to point it out. Ah fan is what we call ourselves he did when today.
[54:58] Mike: Not the fact that did dick butus died but the ah he did yes apparently at 80 years old um yeah but apropos are subject about people licking ass earlier. Um, just his name just his name I know he's a.
[55:06] Keith: Um, man.
[55:13] Keith: Right? right? right? and an actor.
[55:16] Mike: Legend legendary linebacker I know that so so there's this keithru so there's this guy named Trevor Bauer you familiar with this? Okay and I saw tiktok last night actually that was about the text messages that were exchanged because okay.
[55:21] Keith: Oh yeah, yeah, he played for the then indians.
[55:35] Mike: What's the story. The story is that this guy got accused of sexual assault by a woman and I I actually don't know anything about and I'm not really I don't want to litigate that whether it was assault blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Sure the thing that's interesting to me is in this tiktok they read off a bunch of her text messages and I think it was actually.
[55:36] Keith: Um, now here we go. Ah yeah, sorry yeah.
[55:55] Mike: Somebody in interviewing her and she responded and say they were out of context or like there was context missing I'm sure that's true, but in her text messages. She made it very clear and maybe she was just bragging to her friend that she was really interested in his $51000000 which I guess is his net worth or salary or something like that and.
[56:10] Keith: You.
[56:13] Mike: The reason that made made me think of that is there probably is a wealth and okay, there may be a wealth salary etc that a guy has where a woman would be willing to have this experience that you described in that question where she's you know, making him some toast and then having a. Blow him and then make him an egg and have to blow him, againt, etc and like it's it's he's just acting crazy. He's acting sort of overbearing and like an evil stepmother except a guy you know it's just awful. Um, and I don't okay, so so that was the 1 situation so I was trying to think when would this ever be okay, when would a woman ever tolerate this.
[56:29] Keith: Right.
[56:39] Keith: Um, yeah.
[56:48] Mike: You know, setting aside things like the where the woman's really ugly and she feels like nobody else would ever care I don't know she's she's trapped in the situation she has kids and I was it made me think of this situation where the guy's really really wealthy and I have difficulty. The reason I bring that up is I have difficulty. I think a lot of women would be okay with such a situation if if they had access to wealth and I don't really understand why why why is having money like that. So important to women why are women willing to turn over their bodies like that in the way this woman who accused Trevor Bauer said at least she was interested in doing in her text messages like you know I'm going to be a total whore to get that 51000000 I think was one of the quotes or I'm going to act like a total horror. What? what's going on there like what.
[57:29] Keith: Yeah, the the number 1 comment on the topic I just read is I can't imagine dealing with a relationship like that. Are you sure you want this? It's like yeah, it's like impossible to understand from a man's perspective. It's like what are you doing like everything about this sounds terrible. He doesn't respect you.
[57:44] Mike: Right? And there's no right.
[57:47] Keith: He's using you as a cock sleeve. He's totally uninterested in her pleasure like there must be a counterweight here. You're assuming it's something like money or prestige I agree even then it sounds awful but you know presumably there's something but I don't know man I think that women.
[57:57] Mike: Um, but even then I don't get it. It's like what is is there is right.
[58:07] Keith: Men are this way too but women more so just get locked in and they can't.
[58:10] Mike: You so you don't think there's some rational basis like like for example, do you think there's a set of people who would be willing to sign themselves into something like chattel slavery if they just sort of had access to their master's money somehow like in other words like okay you I belong to you which is a little. What happens to some women in marriage right? I belong to you but I get a mercedes I get to live in this mansion I get to go on trips. Yeah like and it seems like there. Yeah, and and I mean I don't know if Van Nicoles Smith was sort of in slavery. But that this feels more like what this woman's describing feels more like frankly slavery where it's like she's.
[58:29] Keith: Right? Yeah then and Nicole Smith or something.
[58:44] Keith: Yes.
[58:46] Mike: Being ordered around and then like hey this blow is not quite good enough woman right? and I I don't get the mentality with it like I I guess is it that women are so afraid that they can't earn a living on their own that.
[58:51] Keith: Ah, yeah, yeah.
[59:01] Mike: They're so afraid ah like their ego will be smashed by not being able to own the latest and greatest clothes makeup and so forth that might be that I actually have difficulty understanding What? what are they afraid of what's the fear of just being a normal person and not having. Access to this wealth like what are what? Why are they so willing to turn over like their kind of freedom in these situations to get that and in this of course I realize in this question there isn't even wealth. It's just if you take out the wealth Component. It's sort of even Heart. You know? Yeah, it's hard to understand the the situation at all if there's nothing in it for her. Um.
[59:22] Keith: Um, yeah, um, well we don't even know. Yeah.
[59:33] Keith: I think there's sort of 2 different things here. There's the the rational part which is yeah what might people sign up for this sort of thing if they were ah you know looking at it fully with eyes open and then. After a woman has been with somebody for a while I think they get locked in and I think both of those things can cause sort of bizarre at least from my perspective behaviors. But yeah I think rationally a woman might enter into something that is not the best partner. Ah, if there were other aspects to the relationship that.
[01:00:08] Mike: Would a man do that would a man I mean aside from a guy who likes you know, having his cock put in a cock cage and all this stuff would a man I Guess no, you would So you don't.
[01:00:08] Keith: Made it interesting and then.
[01:00:16] Keith: Ah I think I would but I think I'm pretty unusual and also this the situation where there's a rich. What? yeah where I could find a sugar Mama like it's it doesn't really exist for men.
[01:00:25] Mike: Well, but you wouldn't hang on importantly, the money wouldn't be put into your bank account. It would just be that you get some Largesse right? like you have a sugar mama that treats you pretty badly, but you get to drive around in an expensive car and have a rolex and.
[01:00:39] Keith: I Would not do that I wouldn't do that? No yeah, yeah.
[01:00:42] Mike: Okay, that's what that's the situation right? It's not yeah if you were actually getting money put in a banking out that you completely controlled I call that being having freedom. This is people giving up their freedom I mean that's why compared it to slavery you're giving up your freedom right.
[01:00:47] Keith: Well. A lot of men don't sign Prenups. So The woman does get access. But yeah I don't think that many women meet a man come up with some like long con plan where they're going to marry him and then divorce him after it becomes common law.
[01:01:07] Mike: Right.
[01:01:08] Keith: And then get the money like that does happen. But I think it's extremely unusual, Mostly it's just irrational behavior.
[01:01:14] Mike: Right? So they want they want to be able to post those things on Instagram say they're such and says wife this woman this woman with the baseball player sending text basically bragging to her friend that she's going to do whatever it takes to get that money. Whatever that I don't even know what that means like you know it's not your money. It's his but okay.
[01:01:19] Keith: Maybe.
[01:01:33] Mike: You're just going to see it. You're like I'm I'm I'm near a glass case full of money is basically what she's saying. It's like why is that couldn't you just go to like New York City and like walk through Tiffany it's the same thing. Yeah, it's the whole thing. It's it's actually I I was watching that video on on Tikok and I was having hard I was just like why what is it's it's just so embarrassing to send someone texts like that.
[01:01:38] Keith: I could look it is safe right? right.
[01:01:52] Mike: Like oh ah I'm going to do this to get this guy with all the money. It's like what? what's what's with this I did I don't understand the value system but it but it is like I think a typically female value system. It's confusing very consumerist. Very new.
[01:01:57] Keith: Damn.
[01:02:06] Keith: Yeah I have a lot of thoughts on the Trevor bower stuff I I've actually met him but I don't want to share them on air. So no I didn't no no, he's it. He's it turred Um, that's but let's let's stop here.
[01:02:11] Mike: Um, did you send him any texts like that or any text to your friends like I met this guy and I'm like oh that's not nice. Okay, sure sure.
[01:02:20] Keith: Ah, so that'll do it for this episode of your mileage may vary. We're an hour and two minute hour 2 minutes anyway ah we cherish feedback, especially the negative kind. So if you want to complain about mike you can do that at ymmvat gmail.com
[01:02:30] Mike: Um, what I didn't call him a turd.
[01:02:36] Keith: That's true if you are Trevor Bower he would a complain about me. You could also send an email to YMMvPod at gmail.com if you send us feedback. We pay you $10 trevor you probably won't care about that but ah other listeners you can add your.
[01:02:48] Mike: Right.
[01:02:52] Keith: Paypal or cash app or whatever you like and but seriously we we do like feedback. So so send us some you can also ask us questions we might use them on the air unless you tell us not to in which case we won't thank you for listening and we will catch you next week on your mileage may vary.

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Episode 137: Human Pheromones, Consent Coercion, Oral Demands, Men Fleeing Aftercare

Episode Transcript