Your Mileage May Vary: Sugar-Escort Axis, Partially Open Marriages, Partner Mutual Pleasure, Liking Odd Smells

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is mostly in good faith but often controversial we have a healthy set of topics today including a gentleman who discovers he likes the smell of his partner's ass whether watching a partner masturbate is awkward. So many women don't masturbate and more I'm Keith my cohost is Mike are you going to throw your hat into the speaker of the house ring.
[00:29] Mike: No I don't think I could get elected I'm not ah I'm not a member of either a political party either major 1 anyway.
[00:32] Keith: Um I don't think anybody can.
[00:37] Keith: Um I saw a rumor that Arnold Schwarzenegger could be speaker.
[00:42] Mike: Okay, I mean it's mostly like an organizational role So I'm not sure that would make sense meaning. Yeah.
[00:47] Keith: Now that this whole thing is sort of preposterous at this point. But yes scalise says says he's out. He's withdrawing. Yeah, he's withdrawing from consideration. So I guess we're down to Jordan and Mccarthy now.
[00:53] Mike: Yes, I was that right.
[01:02] Mike: I Think it would be all right if it was Aoc just because she's sort of attractive.
[01:09] Keith: Ah, she is very pleasant to look at um, all right. This isn't a politics podcast for better or worse. Do you have any banter for today or should I get into these topics.
[01:10] Mike: Um, yeah.
[01:21] Mike: Well I sent you that link about the sugar dating Did you did you read or I would read that thing about the sugar dating situation. It was basically a woman who was describing her ah kind of life as a sugar baby and.
[01:28] Keith: Ah, no.
[01:39] Mike: Sort of you know talking about it. Ah as ah as a positive thing. Um, she posts her she but she posts content on Tiktok. Um I mean I think the numbers are high. Let's see I can I can read some part of it I can put the link to this in the show notes as well.
[01:44] Keith: What she did she talk numbers at all. Okay.
[01:58] Mike: Ah, let's see when she was 19 she moved to New York city to be an actor struggling to make ends meet so she tried working conventional jobs, blah blah blah but her friends and her decided to become sugar babies and this was in 2015 I think I already said that. Ah so you know she started talking to sugar daddies. Um.
[02:09] Keith: Okay.
[02:16] Mike: And yeah I mean now she lives in Los Angeles and is writing a tv show about being a sugar baby. Um and she basically you know here there's a poll quote. This is people often have negative perceptions about sugar babies but it gives me financial freedom and social connections. Ah.
[02:32] Keith: Ok.
[02:34] Mike: I mean essentially she's very pleased with the oh yeah, and of course she's now posting on Tiktok to destigmatize sex work and address misconceptions' not sure what I don't think I think people have fairly reasonable conceptions about so what sex work is like they call it being a spicy worker by the way because of the censorship.
[02:49] Keith: I Hope because you're not allowed to say sex right? okay.
[02:54] Mike: That's right I think that so one of the things I would say about this is that this is a woman who I think is more so I think that I think that there are 2 different concepts that get conflated in the world of sugar dating ah which is essentially some of them are basically escorts and some of them are.
[03:06] Keith: Um.
[03:12] Mike: I Think there's kind of like a a divide some of them were escorts to some of them are looking for a relationship so and and it really is like a question of whether they would prefer to have one guy. They're dating whether there's money involved or not versus kind of a plethora of guys and this woman is making it pretty clear that she's on the.
[03:15] Keith: Yes.
[03:30] Mike: Ah, she wouldn't like me saying this but um, maybe maybe she wouldn't care but on the escort side of that divide.
[03:36] Keith: Um, why do you say that art is her average encounter. Ah brief.
[03:41] Mike: Um, because she's describing herself as this. She's she's destigmatizing sex work describing talking about what it means to be a sex worker and stuff like that. So I mean she's essentially viewing herself in that category. Ok.
[03:49] Keith: Okay, okay I guess I propose a different divide. There's a divide between being mercenary. So doing it mostly for the money and doing it mostly for the company and I think.
[04:05] Mike: Who.
[04:09] Keith: Seeking seeking arrangement is trying to sell that there are a bunch of women who you know just need a little bit of money to get over the hump to meet you and then afterward you'll basically be dating you know boyfriend girlfriend type thing.
[04:24] Mike: Is that what they're selling because I thought this there there was a strong presumption there that there would be ongoing financial remuneration provided to the young lady.
[04:26] Keith: Um.
[04:34] Keith: Well I think it depends.
[04:37] Mike: Um, well sure I know it depends and in in real life I'm just saying that that I don't think anybody thinks that basically you would pay 1 flat fee and then have actually date the woman for 3 years or something I think a lot of guys would sign up if that were the way it was.
[04:49] Keith: Um, I feel like ah okay so I've been using seeking since I mean 2017 or something and I've still never paid anybody to meet me and.
[04:58] Mike: All right.
[05:06] Keith: I am able to I mean I've dated a number of people that I've met on that site and so you know I I do think and if I were willing to pay people to meet me that initial time I could probably have dated even more people now. I have some various privileges For example I'm decent looking and I think a lot of the men on seeking are not decent looking and are married or have an Std or have various issues with them. But I do think that this notion of.
[05:37] Mike: Yeah.
[05:45] Keith: Ah, you know, paying to get access to a woman. You might not actually have access to and then seducing them is possible now I don't know how often that happens versus how often things are more like an escort type relationship. Certainly there's lots of things that are much closer to prostitution going on on seeking. Um, but I just don't know you know what? what the percentages are um, but yeah, like most of these women who talk about you know.
[06:07] Mike: Right.
[06:20] Keith: They've been a sugar baby for a long time and they've you know had lots of sugar relationships and they've made you know pretty good money I think I mean they would they would argue that they're not escorts they would. There's something like. I think they would probably on average like to date man for like a month and then move on.
[06:45] Mike: Really you think that? Ah okay, be in that's right, you're you're basically just saying they'd like to be an escort with a lower body count. Okay.
[06:50] Keith: Yeah I think that's right like they well and I think generally the men are probably not willing to pay as much after a month goes by things are getting normalized. They could go find somebody else.
[07:04] Mike: Um, so this is sort of topical as somebody most very recently won the 1 point something billion dollar jackpot in the powerball when people win the lottery large amounts of money. There is some percentage of people who say I'm not going to quit my job.
[07:15] Keith: Aha.
[07:21] Mike: I Love what I do I'm going to keep doing it what percentage of women who are escorts. Do you think would say that if they won the lottery they keep being escorts.
[07:31] Keith: Um, ah I your intuition is almost all of them would quit escorting. Um.
[07:38] Mike: Yes I I actually think all of them. What I actually think it's identically all of them.
[07:47] Keith: Okay, and let's and invert the sexes for a moment. So let's say there's a man that somehow has carved out a life for himself where he's you know having sex with different women all the time and they're paying him to do so and then he wins the lottery.
[07:52] Mike: Um, okay.
[08:06] Keith: I can imagine him saying I Love my job I'm going to keep doing his ah till I can't anymore. Um, so I can imagine. There's a woman who enjoys doing sex work. But I I take your point.
[08:19] Mike: Yeah, right? Ah yeah, so I think that yeah I think it's whereas that it is It is a thing that you know obviously there are jobs that people enjoy doing. It's not this is just sort of unusual. Um that makes sense have you ah have you.
[08:30] Keith: Um, yeah.
[08:35] Mike: Read about Tinder select.
[08:38] Keith: Um, ah I've heard about it is this the thing that's like $1000 a month or something.
[08:42] Mike: Um, it's $499 per month you have to be invited to it and the the key is that it of course it's aimed at men and the key is that it it basically gives you access some sort of privileged access to the. Ah.
[08:48] Keith: Off.
[08:57] Mike: Most sought after female profiles. So it's essentially I think it's essentially turning tinder into a sugar dating app at least on some level.
[08:59] Keith: Well.
[09:06] Keith: Um, it's it's inverting I mean that that basically just states that most men don't have access to the most eligible bachelorettes.
[09:16] Mike: Um, sure I mean okay but I mean it's It's yes.
[09:19] Keith: And well we know that has to be the case because we know that there's far more men on tender than there are women and men swipe far more than women swipe so there's just like you just eat even if you wanted to line up all the 9 men with all the 9 women. You you couldn't do it because there's a math problem. But if yeah if you make them pay to play. That's smart.
[09:38] Mike: Right? right? right? right? So then you just take money and well I mean what I've read about that is you? Yeah I've seen people arguing that it's just a signaling mechanism partly if you're willing to pay that much money then women will be interested and.
[09:54] Keith: Um, wouldn't they potentially not be interested because it implies desperation. You're going to say it implies wealth.
[10:02] Mike: Yeah, well I mean it implies I guess it could imply both ah but that would be fairly she a woman might think she could suss that out easily I'm not sure if she actually could ah meaning ah know ah whether or not you have really have the money to pay where it's just because there there are.
[10:12] Keith: Desperation.
[10:19] Mike: People for whom that would they'd just say ah whatever, it's worth it. I don't care. It's just not that much money to them like the guy at the ah casino who's playing in that high stakes room for the for the playing that the slot machines where it's like $50 a pull I never understand.
[10:28] Keith: M.
[10:36] Keith: Yeah I don't know what they're doing. It seems.
[10:36] Mike: That person.
[10:40] Mike: Yeah I Always wonder if it's like a casino plant because it just doesn't It's it's so stupid like it's.
[10:45] Keith: I Had a friend who a former coworker who got really into the trying to maximize comps at Casinos and he would play high stakes pie gal poker and he had some strategy.
[10:55] Mike: Okay.
[11:04] Keith: That wasn't for maximizing winning or anything. It was just for maximizing amount of time you could play at that table without hemorrhaging cash So he had some system where he's He's in the seats and apparently that's what casinos measure. Anyway, they don't care whether you win or lose they know you're going to lose in the long run.
[11:13] Mike: Um, yeah, okay.
[11:19] Mike: Um, that's right right.
[11:24] Keith: So they just want you to be in the seat and then it's up to the dealers to deal the hands fast enough. Um, which is something they can't control. Um, so anyway, maybe playing slots in the high stakes area is some way to cheat.
[11:28] Mike: Um, yes, yes.
[11:42] Mike: The yeah the problem being that slots have a terrible payback ratio generally so you're you're going to lose an awful lot of money.
[11:42] Keith: The cop system.
[11:50] Keith: Ah, my understanding is there are slots that have good payback ratios. But the the Median payback is much lower because the the payback is allocated mostly on concentrated on the Jackpots right? whereas in blackjack blackjack. You have a much more.
[11:55] Mike: Yes, concentrated. That's right? So you're not what's going to happen is you're not goingnna win. That's right Yes, blackjack is one where you can obviously.
[12:07] Keith: Even Keel. Yeah.
[12:12] Mike: Sort of play for a long period of time without losing to one notch. Anyway.
[12:17] Keith: Um, all right. This guy says I liked this smell dot.dotofharass I'm well completely and unequivocally and unequivocally disgusted with myself I was having sex with a friend who I met weekly to explore kinks and such. With 1 another in a safe environment and I couldn't finish she remembered smells turned me on doesn't have to be good or bad just smelling things usually gets me going. Well she sat on my face asked to nose and proceeded to suck me off so here we are with another ask to nose situation mike ah exactly yeah.
[12:45] Mike: Oh notice which direction she's sitting. Yeah.
[12:50] Keith: Ah, Harass was clean but it still had that well after Poop aroma I don't know I don't know if it was the sex. The act of the blowjob or her taking charge. But I really got off on sniffing or asshole. Please tell me this is normal and I'm not some weird Sicko I need to pick me up Ha ha.
[12:55] Mike: Um, I'll stop.
[13:07] Mike: Um I think he's a weird sicko. Yeah I don't understand.
[13:11] Keith: Ah I I'm trying to imagine a situation where like I could find that arousing I would have to be so aroused and just so just entirely smitten and obsessed with this person. But even if they stank it would arouse me.
[13:32] Mike: Oh I mean I even have a I already have a problem with with him saying he's just ah, he he gets aroused by smells of any kind. It doesn't make any sense I mean decomposing bodies like a garbage that can't be right and so there's something. There's there's has to be more detail on that. Obviously.
[13:35] Keith: Yeah, now right.
[13:48] Mike: Reminds me by the way I asked a ah friend the other day I came up with this question which we can see if you can answer it would you rather would you rather have sex with a ninety year old woman 90 or a.
[13:54] Keith: Oh no.
[14:02] Keith: Um, ah.
[14:06] Mike: 18 year old who died an hour you don't have to answer. It's like it's just like a funny. Yeah, oh no, no yeah, that's not the point. The point is like is like well one's going to have a much more attractive body.
[14:12] Keith: Ah, this is this is one of those thingss a waves at the nsa listening to all of our conversations. Ah I mean least he said 18 and at 16 Ah.
[14:29] Mike: But it's dead. Well yeah, right? It's just like no no, no, it's only an hour or it could be like 30 minutes but but okay I yeah now there's no need to answer it.
[14:29] Keith: Sort of right? The the answer starting to arrive I mean I don't know I don't know how I don't know enough about decomposition to be able to answer that. Um.
[14:43] Mike: I Mean if your interest at whatever we don't need to get into that but the the that the smell thing made me think of that because there obviously are smells that a person should not be aroused by so that's a little strange. Yeah I mean if he's he's.
[14:53] Keith: Right? The decomposing flesh being one of them.
[15:01] Mike: I mean I have look you do encounter stories from guys who like fecal bowel odors or claim to it's really hard for me to understand because I think for sort of obvious reasons you are programmed at Birth Genetically probably to avoid such sense. Although you know. Dogs and other animals sniff each other's butts but I assume that's because of like pheromones or there's some. There's some point in doing that right? So we're we're missing that now. Maybe he has a genetic trait that other people don't have maybe he maybe there's a gene that like allows you.
[15:24] Keith: Yeah I think there's something there that is not analogous to humans.
[15:36] Keith: Um, is his one quarter canine
[15:39] Mike: Yeah, well no, it could just be a single gene that like is in the population that enables you to smell That's not impossible like gets you where you get something out of the odor of the anus of the other person.
[15:49] Keith: Ok, there are some like famous I don't know about famous but ok, are you aware of the the like Napoleon rumor like apparently he wrote to josephine home in three days don't bathe now that's a certainly fake. But.
[16:03] Mike: I've heard that before. Yeah. Oh.
[16:08] Keith: We've we've talked before about you know men who prefer you know a bit of aroma on their partner and and and you know.
[16:15] Mike: I mean yeah, okay yeah, the the napoleon thing could be something weird about hygiene in the eighteenth century or ninth I guess early nineteenth said also. But yeah, okay.
[16:24] Keith: Yeah, who knows I don't I I can't get Napoleon's head but you know there's the there's the used panties thing.
[16:33] Mike: I Always just assume that's the guy wanting to sort of like fantasy. He's not he's like fantasizing about proximity to the woman's genital. Yes, which sort of makes sense to me but the ah yeah, okay.
[16:35] Keith: Like being being near the vagina right right? But I think I think in the the sales pitch for for said panties. Some women will say like oh I wore them all day you know so it's like accumulated. The ah keep using this word aroma.
[16:59] Mike: Yeah I mean there I prefer to imagine that he's looking for the odor of her genitals of her vagina not of her anus. But it's hard to know. So yeah, it's certainly it's certainly a possible thing but it's ah.
[17:08] Keith: Harassshole right.
[17:16] Mike: I mean the other thing is you know look it's it's all in 1 kind of relatively compact area on the woman's body. So it's possible that like the odors are kind of moving around. It's not clear exactly what he's smelling although he was pretty explicit in the description.
[17:25] Keith: I Don't know man I think I could differentiate pussy from anus.
[17:32] Mike: Yeah I mean I just be okay, fair. But I don't think that I I would be Surprised. It's not impossible but I'd be surprised if the same guy was like hey what I what I like to do is beto I have my what I'd say I have my girlfriend take a dump in the toilet. Not flush it and then I just go in there and. Just smell it and beat off and I really get a good orgasm out of that I don't think I think that would be uncommon maybe impossible like there's so there's probably something a little else here right? Yeah, What turns me on is the.
[18:00] Keith: Yeah, ah well, there's something about the naughtiness of it or something the tabooness right right? likes going by farms that have just laid down manure and so like God um.
[18:07] Mike: The sewage treatment plant that odor just just juices my cock just start dripping I don't think so okay.
[18:18] Keith: I Had another topic here about cleanliness. This guy says wife can only have sex if we shower before sex. It makes sex difficult I've only been with my wife so I don't know how others do My wife has a role that she can only have sex if we have showered before this makes it difficult to find time for sex especially because we have three young kids and busy lives quickies are a no because.
[18:24] Mike: Difficult.
[18:32] Mike: Are.
[18:37] Keith: Have to have had shower just right before the sex not just wiper something like that it has to be a shower takes a lot of planning to make time for sex and it sucks. But of course went to respect her rule but I'm curious about how common it is so there's a few things that could be going on here. She could be insecure about her own smell. She could be. Concerned about her partner's smell when it's probably 1 of those 2 things or I guess it's third thing. Yeah, ah she basically doesn't like having sex with him and so adding this like huge barrier makes drops the count to a tolerable.
[18:57] Mike: Well, she's not she's saying they both they both happened to have to shower. Go ahead. What's the third thing.
[19:12] Mike: That one's the least fun but also like more likely than people would want to acknowledge like I think that's at least 25% likely that's yeah it's boring. Yeah I mean but they have they both have to show right? if it was her if she was worried about her own cleanliness then she would.
[19:15] Keith: Um, out. Yeah yeah, let's drop that one from discussion because it's less interesting.
[19:29] Keith: Um, right? Yeah I dated someone like this in my twenty s um she would have to shower and shave herself Otherwise she didn't feel comfortable. No she that she.
[19:30] Mike: Probably just want herself to shower right.
[19:42] Mike: Um, but she didn't insist that you do anything in particular. Yeah I mean it could be also the way a way for the the woman might be saying that he has terrible hygiene that in some ways that's.
[19:47] Keith: Was apparently okay with my hygiene.
[19:53] Keith: She could be yeah.
[19:59] Mike: More likely I think because she's requiring like that the Discor the story you told suggests a woman who's insecure about her own hygiene or whatever. But this story sounds like it's the guy because I don't because yeah and then she says well I need to shower as well because that is a way to deflect I think that's to my I think that's like the most likely explanation there.
[19:59] Keith: Right? right.
[20:12] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[20:18] Keith: Um, yeah, nosing around in the comments here is curious if she likes him to go down on her if she doesn't that might imply something more about her own insecurities but he doesn't nobody asked and he didn't respond anyway.
[20:19] Mike: So.
[20:32] Mike: Um, yeah.
[20:36] Keith: And sure. But anyway it appears that there is quite a spectrum here of people's cleanliness preferences.
[20:45] Mike: I Think like I think I definitely tend more toward the I would rather both of us have showered recently side of the equation like that's better. Um.
[20:50] Keith: Yeah, yeah I mean some people I think have this fetish about like having sex like right after somebody gets back from a run or something I don't really have that.
[21:02] Mike: Um, I mean I don't understand like maybe most people haven't run enough to do this. But like if you smell the crotch as a guy of your shorts after you run, It's not great. It's's it's actually surprisingly bad. It's like I like.
[21:11] Keith: Um, now it's not this that great. Yeah, no, you're 9 You don't you don't perspire that much.
[21:19] Mike: Because I don't I don't think I'm a particularly smelly person I'm not but that no but that smell is really fucked up like I don't really understand what's going on there like is it is it poop I don't really know what the odor is completely.
[21:33] Keith: No, it's not poop. It's just I guess yeah I think it just that just ah collates there or I don't know if the word is.
[21:37] Mike: Concentrated sweat I Guess yeah so it's the equivalent of Armpit odor.
[21:47] Mike: Coalesces collects. Yeah I don't know. Yes, yeah.
[21:48] Keith: Coalesces. Yeah, the the collects the rivulets all get focused there all right? Let's move on. Ah this person says my boyfriend wouldn't masturbate in front of me I an eighteen year old female have a boyfriend. He's also 18 we're both new to this and we've only had sex a few times we were just chilling in his room and I asked to see him masturbate to do it pretending I'm not there I was just curious what it looks like when he gets himself off told him not to come though because I'll tooth head. He went for like 10 seconds then said it felt a bit weird and didn't want to continue. He said.
[22:10] Mike: Who.
[22:23] Keith: Me just sitting at the end of the bed watching him do that felt really weird to him I don't get it. Why ist he comfortable with that all I get out of him. It is it feels weird. Okay, just she's eighteen. So let's forgive her ah confusion about this but ah.
[22:30] Mike: And why isn't he comfortable with that. Right? She wouldn't be comfortable doing that either probably I mean less I think would yeah.
[22:41] Keith: Well I think she would be That's why she's so confused about why he is like yeah yeah, right? Yeah I don't.
[22:46] Mike: Maybe she would be. She might just think she would be also I don't know because it's pretty aggressive.
[22:57] Keith: Want to be watched masturbating I think we've talked about this before? no I haven't I've not you know, maybe like the very beginning of a sexual encounter has been some sort of mutual.
[22:58] Mike: Um, have you ever done that Okay I don't think I have either.
[23:14] Keith: Mutual Masturbation I don't think so.
[23:15] Mike: Hang on a second. Are you saying that during sexual encounters. You don't touch your penis with your hand. Okay, okay, and what when it happens is it is it just repositioning it or is it pleasuring yourself for a period of time or or both.
[23:20] Keith: No I do I mean that happens of course.
[23:28] Keith: That you might be pledging yourself while you're switching positions or something.
[23:35] Mike: Okay, okay, yeah, that's normal I think I think that yeah that our our experience here is sort of similar. But yeah, this is more of a clinical situation right? It's like ah it's some sort of it's like a masturbation equivalent of a colonoscopy. She wants to just watch and see what happens at all phases I think that I like there are a few things I agree with the guy that it would feel kind of weird. Um, it's maybe embarrassing. Maybe maybe maybe you'd be worried that it you wouldn't be able to get not to ejaculate I'm not sure about that because you might have stage fright.
[24:06] Keith: Um, I Yeah well generally yeah, generally if I'm not feeling comfortable and safe or whatever. Ah, it's harder to Orgasm I don't. Normally try to masturbate when I'm not feeling comfortable and safe and so hit us. Okay, did you just? ah unrepress a memory here.
[24:21] Mike: Oh I think I told this I might not have told this story okay hang on a second 1 time in college one time in college I did have an experience with this hang on and yeah, okay, this is this is a decent.. It's not that interesting, but it's decent. No I Just I had forgotten it. It was. Yeah, it's not repressed. Um, So my girlfriend and I decided to do this and she she faked her orgasm and admitted to it afterward. Maybe this is why I'm so insecure about fake do like I get I get so like animated about faked orgasms anyway.
[24:50] Keith: Um, ban it.
[24:53] Keith: Wait questions I need more details Did you know she was did you suspect she was faking at the time. How soon after did she tell you.
[24:57] Mike: Yeah, no, no, really soon like we were still lying there in bed and she like started giggling or something and then sort of an embarss embarrassed way told me no no, it wasn't like Hai fooled you it was like maybe giggling' is the wrong word but like she.
[25:08] Keith: Oh man. Ah, right.
[25:16] Mike: She wanted to come clean immediately put it that way and I remember being kind of upset. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, that's right.
[25:20] Keith: That's it's actually better that she came clean immediately. You don't you don't want to ah we were talking about ah trading ai algorithms where we started recording here but like yeah you don't want to train your boyfriend on not orgasming.
[25:36] Keith: To train him on on positive conversions.
[25:38] Mike: I mean it was It is concerning though in general that she was able to simulate that effectively it then immediately makes you wonder like I I didn't at the time I should have but I did not at the time wonder like oh does this? What does this mean about all the other quote unquote orgasms that she's had when we're together like I should have thought that. Um, yeah, maybe it was maybe what she was I've thought that yeah I've thought before maybe what she was doing was like trying to indicate to me that she fakes all the time and it was like a way to talk about that and then I got upset or I didn't get really seriously upset but I didn't like it and maybe that caused her to stop talking about that.
[26:11] Keith: What what are the reasons to fake orgasms like but if men I mean men can usually fairly reliably orgasm and after the orgasm most men are fine with the sexual.
[26:17] Mike: Pressure.
[26:30] Keith: Encounter being over.
[26:31] Mike: Not all I mean you I mean I very frequently have seen in porn and seen discussions outside of porn of this where guys take great pride in the orgasms they give say things like oh did you come yet. Are you going to come like this is a really common trope right.
[26:38] Keith: Are.
[26:46] Keith: Free. Yeah yeah, yeah I I think I overweight on the other side of that like I don't.
[26:50] Mike: Guys kind of being pushy about that and they want the woman to come and so it's I think if you're not pushing her at all then she's much less likely to fake 1
[27:02] Keith: Say things like oh I Really want you to come for me because I don't want to put pressure on them right? like I know yeah sure.
[27:04] Mike: Yeah I I feel that way now. but but I have to say when I sure but going back to college I don't know like it's I just couldn't I couldn't tell you whether I put pressure or not I if I had to guess I would guess I did because I think that's probably. The normal default behavior of a guy is to sort of value. Your partner's orgasm. Be excited by it in sort of 1 or 2 and so and to say shit to her like you know are you are you getting close or something you know these dirty talk things you want to say and I bet I did that only now with like a lot more wisdom. Do I know that that's actually a really.
[27:37] Keith: Right sophistication.
[27:42] Mike: So really bad set of shit to say like young men should not say things like that because you're you're going down the fake orgasm path and it's not great. Um, it's in I I mean if if if you talk about it and she's like oh yeah, that turns me on I like that Okay, fine like that's good.
[27:46] Keith: Um, right right.
[27:55] Keith: Right? Some women like they'll have like ah encouragement or Praise Kink and they yeah but.
[27:58] Mike: Yeah, yeah, So he anyways. So Yes I had this experience and it was and and also it was I would say it was it was Mutual Masturbation. It was an embarrassing it was embarrassing too because I then had to cope with the truth that I was there. Going through the entire process of arousing orgasm and she was basically just doing nothing. She was like reading a book. Basically um, you know? yeah she was faking the whole not the whole I mean she was faking an important part of it which made it so there was an asymmetry that bothered me.
[28:17] Keith: Um, right.
[28:24] Keith: Yeah, yeah I Wonder yeah I Wonder why she felt compelled to fake. She probably just didn't feel comfortable masturbating and in front of you and so like she she felt comfortable enough to pantomime.
[28:33] Mike: Um, my guess is yeah, that's right.
[28:41] Keith: Masturbating in front of you but not to like actually.
[28:41] Mike: But importantly I would not at all rule out the possibility that actually she always faked orgasms and she was trying to start a conversation about that I actually think like that's more than 10 percent likely. Even yeah I just think it is I think it has to be I think it has to be right.
[28:50] Keith: Um, yeah.
[28:54] Keith: Um, huh.
[28:59] Mike: But like that I think that has to be a but reasonably probable assumption even though like it's I don't like saying that because it's like embarrassing for me. But yeah.
[29:05] Keith: Right? You should you should dig up her old email and be like hey it's Mike from forty years ago I've been really prociferating on this lately. Do you want to come on to my sex podcast to discuss.
[29:13] Mike: Ah.
[29:24] Mike: Be good. Yeah no, the funny part would be if it were I don't know what her status is but it would it would be a funny thing if um, if she if she like when I contacted her she thought like oh I was interested in like rekindling something and just to find out that I just know.
[29:24] Keith: Ah.
[29:31] Keith: Right? right? No, that's right and and and I vote out like exact specifics around this one. It's.
[29:40] Mike: No I'm not interested in you I don't want to hear your life story. No I don't care about your kids I Just want to know about this one incident like.
[29:49] Mike: It' this feels like a ah Seinfeld plot. Yeah oh yeah, highly well I it it would actually not. It's not that I would like to know I would be interested in having like a spreadsheet given to me.
[29:50] Keith: It's yeah yeah, she probably does even remember Mike who ah now people remember people remember sex partners especially early ones.
[30:06] Mike: Maybe this is what happens when you die I get a spreadsheet say just telling me which women faked and which ones didn't that would be interesting like oh I'm sure at least 1 partner that I had I've had in my life did consistently fake I just don't know which one.
[30:18] Keith: I I have a spreadsheet of all of my partners and I've I've wanted extended rows function right? right.
[30:26] Mike: Oh yeah, how ah how how how is it? Do you have to use like the ah the yeah like yeah because you know excel only goes up to 64000 rows
[30:38] Keith: Ah, yeah, so far I have wrote it to that limit. But I I've thought about adding a column for whether or not they orgasm but I don't want to so I feel like this having the spreadsheet is already degenerate enough and if anybody ever found it. It's already going to like cause some issues.
[30:38] Mike: Okay.
[30:57] Keith: But ah, and yeah like I don't know would adding this column would adding this column matter. No no, no no I know but they the other what made me think of it is. It's whether I think.
[30:59] Mike: So how do you but protect the accessed. No I mean the problem is that you don't know I mean my my issue would be. You don't know at all.
[31:13] Mike: Well, it's oh could you go back and forensically remember for each 1 Okay and that's not that helpful. Yeah I mean it would be certainly interesting if you could go back and ask a number of them I would definitely be interested in that data.
[31:14] Keith: I Think they had an Orgasm. No I Don't think so no, definitely not actually.
[31:30] Mike: Very interested in that data if you had like if you picked a representative sample of like 10 and like ask them to be as honest as possible but you realize realize there. There's there's always this remaining problem of like ah does she know what an orgasm is right.
[31:34] Keith: Um, yeah.
[31:42] Keith: Right? They might be misidentifying What an orgasm is yeah, only only God knows.
[31:47] Mike: And that's then I that's just too complicated this girl in college if a woman tells you she faked that probably means that she knows what a real orgasm is so there's that So actually maybe that augurs in favor of this college girlfriend having real orgasm. Yes.
[31:56] Keith: How that's an interesting game theoretic observation. Yeah, right right? now that's that's good point All right, Let's move on.
[32:04] Mike: Woman who doesn't know what 1 is never fakes 1 Yes.
[32:15] Keith: Ah, this person says. Ah, what do you do when you're craving to have sex. Don't like the idea of hookups and don't masturbate. It's really weird to explain so bear with me l lol but I haven't had sex since like November of last year I've only had sex in long term relationships I've downloading dating apps such as tinder and bumble.
[32:24] Mike: And.
[32:34] Keith: And I can't find myself feeling any urges to have sex with these men on there I'm not sure why I may find them decent looking but not enough to want to have sex with them. But now I'm like single I don't masturbate or have interest in doing so but I crave having sex What an odd dilemma and I haven't even hit the big O either way. But I still just create it anyways. So I am stunned by her lack of curiosity like how do you get to be an adult and not have had an orgasm. Like you know what an orgasm is you know it's It's a big part of our culture. It comes up on every television show Surely you know that there is this thing that people describe as the most pleasurable possible physical Experience. You can have.
[33:16] Mike: Good.
[33:24] Mike: I Don't think it's the most pleasurable possible I think I think there's a drug that's more pleasurable.
[33:28] Keith: Are we? Okay, okay, yeah, feed the the first ten minutes of a fentanyl trip. Maybe.
[33:36] Mike: Fentanyl I didn't when I had it for a surgery but I didn't find that that pleasurable. But I think they're probably other ones that are kind of euphoric. Yeah, but okay, it's yeah, it's it's it's around there and it and it has no downsides right? I mean there's no, it's not like you're going to get addicted right.
[33:40] Keith: That are more euphoric. Yeah.
[33:50] Keith: It's not unlike fentanyl ah you can't get addicted actually I can confirm I think the longest that gone without having an orgasm since I was like 12 or 13 is a week
[33:54] Mike: Ah, natural process say that it to took orgasms What is sorry what? What do you offer.
[34:08] Mike: That's not an that's I mean that's like saying you're addicted to eating food or breathing. Ok what? yeah I think that the definitional about the word addiction. Um.
[34:10] Keith: I think I am addicted to both of those things I I enjoy it I enjoy them both? Yeah okay this is a pedantic discussion.
[34:21] Mike: Okay, but yeah I completely agree with you I think it's odd she obviously could solve this for under $50 probably under $30 on Amazon by buying a vibrator. Ah, let's yeah, let's assume that she she has some reason she doesn't mastertate I don't know and yes I agree.
[34:31] Keith: Um, right.
[34:35] Keith: Okay, hold on there's an there's There's an edit here. Maybe I should she says this post blew up. Wow I can't respond to every single person but thank you for all the suggestions I do want to add that I do infrequently masturbate by grinding at the edge of my bed with panties on I'd say do this maybe twice a month. That's the only thing I actually enjoy exclamation point I actually prefer doing this over attempting to try with a vibrator. However, the sensation I get just goes away eventually and I have no interest in going on I'll maybe do this for like 5 minutes max until the feeling stops I'm not even feeling aroused or anything I Just do it because I like that feeling. Prefer the edge of my bed over a pillow because I like the firmness of my bed if that makes sense I'll definitely try to explore more because when I do happen to have sex again with a guy one day I'd hopefully be able to understand myself a bit more. Okay, so this reminds me of my sleeping bag Experience. We haven't talked about the sleeping bag in 50 episodes or so but.
[35:29] Mike: Yeah, okay.
[35:32] Keith: Yeah, famously, my first orgasm was by like straddling a sleeping bag and you know using it to like stroke the underside of my cock and mike yeah our listeners don't have the video but Mike is is repulsed by this discussion.
[35:43] Mike: Um, yeah, it's just grossed. Yes.
[35:51] Keith: Um, and I remember yeah like I I had probably you know I had explored touching myself before and you know had pleasurable experiences but I was able to use that strategy to sort of get myself over the top and. Bring it up because this woman is describing things that sound like could be pleasurable but she's just not able to you know, commit to the bit.
[36:17] Mike: Yeah, well, it's really common for women to the yeah, the the thing she's describing isn't that it's very common for women to be reluctant to push themselves over the edge and actually orgasm whether they that's 1 thing that's 1 thing you hear.
[36:29] Keith: Um, are they worried I mean are they worried they're going to pee like what is.
[36:36] Mike: Another thing is just like they they the sensations freak them out or they like it too intense or something like that which is just yeah, they don't know what the response feels like they don't know they don't know what to expect and so they're they're afraid of it this woman though actually seems to be saying that she just has no desire to go on. It doesn't like the feeling just goes away.
[36:44] Keith: Right.
[36:55] Keith: Um, well she's probably not. She's probably not leaning into it. She's leaning out from it.
[36:55] Mike: Right? Which could yeah yeah, and also I mean she's not she's not turned on. She's not aroused by anything right? I mean that's not that surprising for a woman like women don't women's sexual response often is more complicated than men's and so it doesn't like.
[37:12] Keith: It Maybe maybe this is part of why so many women are so submissive they they need to almost be forced to get over this edge? No but they like.
[37:14] Mike: Just looking at a picture doesn't get them there.
[37:23] Mike: Forest orgasm Keith is that what you're into they have that.
[37:30] Keith: They like the sort of loss of control that comes with being submissive I don't know I mean I'm just thinking out loud here I don't know.
[37:35] Mike: Yeah I mean they do although I don't I don't think this is why I don't think this is why they like that I think that's just a thing they like because it's the role that they're in a morse like it just makes sense for women to prefer that in most cases but the ah the yeah I don't think that I don't think that it's.
[37:43] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[37:53] Mike: It Okay, a couple things forced Orgasm Porn is a is a type of porn that I do not like are you familiar with forced orgasm porn. Okay, so's I don't like it because it's very clearly in my opinion fake but essentially they tie a woman down and then like apply a vibrator to a clit you know with quote unquote quote unquote against her will.
[37:57] Keith: No.
[38:10] Keith: Okaynic. Oh.
[38:12] Mike: You know, not really and then she's forced to have an orgasm which is like it's an interesting question actually I would be interested I don't I've never read any study or anything on this whether what percentage of women can be forced to have an orgasm. You. Do you do hear stories of anecdotal. Ports of women orgasming while being sexually Assaulted. So I Assume they you know that's kind of being forced. They don't want to have that response then so I imagine that it's not 0% but I would imagine. It's a low percentage of women who can who can't just turn off that.
[38:36] Keith: Right? or.
[38:46] Mike: And I think it's similar for men I don't know. Do you think somebody could force you to have an orgasm.
[38:50] Keith: Yeah I was just going through that thought experiment while you were talking there. Ah ah, conceptually yes, but generally I could just reposition myself slightly to change the sensation so that.
[39:05] Mike: So I think it goes without saying to force you to have an orgasm would have to be a very attractive young woman probably that would ah okay so let's assume we have that let's assume we have a very young very available very indu seeming woman. What would what would she do to force So you' true, you don't want to so let's assume.
[39:08] Keith: Right? right. Right? with the I mean yeah, right? So I mean I think the most reliable way to get me to orgasm is probably well no, it's.
[39:20] Mike: She ties you up or something. Oh.
[39:26] Mike: A sleeping bag she would.
[39:30] Keith: It's probably a more dominant position for myself. So it's probably good callback. Ah so it's probably dogie style or missionary but like you can't really force me me to do that. So so she would have to she would have to be on top and I can orgasm I can orgasm with the woman on top. But it's.
[39:41] Mike: Um, okay, basically yeah.
[39:50] Keith: Not my I guess you know favorite and so yeah I mean she could do it. It's possible. It's just it would be tricky.
[39:55] Mike: Okay, so hang on a sec I Want to understand this so in your in your situation here. You're imagining that she would have to put her she would have to do P I V sex with you to force you to orgasm now I'm I'm I'm not.
[40:06] Keith: How I say.
[40:12] Mike: Judging that I'm just making sure I understand the scenario because it's interesting to be that you yes, but those wouldn't work at all you if you were getting a blow or a hand job or snow like that you think you could just completely control. You could will yourself not to orgasm I know I don't I don't yeah I don't genuinely know for myself.
[40:13] Keith: Why yeah that is where my mind went. But yeah I suppose there are other options.
[40:27] Keith: I don't I don't think a hand job is I She would have to be bit. You know very skilled. It's possible. But I think I think the amount of skill required to give me sexual pleasure from P I V is lower than for. Ah.
[40:42] Mike: Um, what if what if she very convincingly acted the part of wanting you to paint her face white as one says with that. Okay, yeah.
[40:42] Keith: Hand hand job or a blowjob.
[40:49] Keith: Yeah, yeah I mean maybe I do like the the feeling of blowjobs because you know Magnet is like that.
[40:57] Mike: Well I mean but she's like she's being but it would be ok. So yeah I think I would say maybe for me as well I think it's possible, but it would yeah but men are in the typically in the more dominant role I Generally like think this for forced orgasm thing is not really a thing too much. Ah, a vibrator makes it more plausible to me.
[41:11] Keith: Yeah.
[41:17] Mike: But I still don't particularly enjoy that kind of porn because it's it seems so fake.
[41:20] Keith: Yeah I think for women that masturbate often they have they're sort of like go to vibrator and they know exactly where to hit the spot for someone like that. Maybe a force orgasm is a little bit more in play but generally I agree with your intuition here.
[41:39] Mike: Right? Um, okay, but here you have a woman who is ah just not I don't know ah possible I mean it's on the border of seem asexual.
[41:47] Keith: She's she's like afraid I just I just can't imagine like I wonder how long I was able to have an orgasm before I did 10 minutes I mean I'm joking here but like. But yeah I think something changes in like the male body whereby they start producing semen or something.
[42:12] Mike: I Think ah I think you can have an orgasm pretty young. Yes, well yes, there would there wouldn't be but but I think that I think that the you you.
[42:14] Keith: Really, there's just not sperm in it.
[42:21] Keith: Or is there some not much or how does it work. Okay, oh okay, careful here.
[42:26] Mike: Well, there would be a point there being an age when there would be none I have a friend I mean this is a really complicated topic for obvious reasons. But I have a friend who well it's because you're dealing with children but I have a friend a male friend who told me that when he first started beating off I don't know exactly what age he was claiming to have been.
[42:39] Keith: Yeah. And.
[42:44] Mike: But he remembered masturbating and nothing coming out. Yes, and that surprised me because I thought because I did not have that experience and ah yeah I mean the way the way I would characterize my experience is that I just wasn't interested before a certain point in my life and so that's.
[42:47] Keith: End having an orgasm. Yeah.
[43:03] Mike: Kind of consonant with what this woman is saying she's just not actually that interested and so you're saying you can't understand someone not being interested and it's like well I mean a bitch. You've never had like a situation where you're in your life where like sex where your sex drive went to 0 Okay, so.
[43:10] Keith: Um, I think I.
[43:15] Keith: Yeah I have.
[43:21] Mike: She's just constantly in that situation of the with with regard to the sex drive. Not I'm sure when you had that happen. There were other things going on that weren't great, but like yeah.
[43:24] Keith: Um, well I mean the first sentence of her question though is what do you do when you're craving to have sex. Don't like the idea of hookups and don't masturbate. It's like she's craving something.
[43:37] Mike: Well, some sort of emotional connection. But it's but like this is the thing is that like a sex sex drive ultimately is about like wanting to experience sexual pleasure and typically is going to involve an orgasm. You know that's what a sex drive is so but you could have sort of like a relationship drive ah of drive to.
[43:39] Keith: Yeah.
[43:47] Keith: Um, right.
[43:54] Mike: Partner with somebody and that makes sense to me that a woman would have that drive sometimes and not have a sex drive at the same time.
[43:58] Keith: Is it something more like driving toward wanting like a back massage or something like she really wants a back massage.
[44:03] Mike: She just wants somebody like pay attention to her and like you know, be there with her. No I mean that's that's that's right I mean it's that she wants to be in a couple. She wants to be to have a boyfriend right? What like what are the motivations. The women have there.
[44:16] Keith: Yeah I mean she might also have some latent physical thing that she doesn't quite understand.
[44:24] Mike: That's probably right? That's probably right? I Just think that it's not dominant and and I can understand it to your point. This is mostly to your point of not being able to understand somebody not being curious. It is confusing I think that.
[44:28] Keith: Um, yeah.
[44:37] Mike: Think there's a point in life where some where where basically every person would be so curious. They would try to have an orgasm but I could see a person delaying it because they just don't they don't They're not in not not up for sex right? then? yeah.
[44:40] Keith: Um, right.
[44:52] Keith: Yeah.
[44:52] Mike: So ah, just like a child does I mean a preview us and child just has no interest but but like intellectually at some point they would become well at some point they mature. But like if if if they didn't for whatever reason eventually every person as an adult adult would become curious just like hey can I have this sensation. You know.
[45:08] Keith: Yeah I I don't know I mean I I guess I already said this but I feel like almost as soon as I could have an orgasm I did.
[45:17] Mike: And what what makes you so sure of that because you tried repeatedly before that moment.
[45:21] Keith: I'm not ah I'm not I mean it was a it was a long time ago I don't remember go on.
[45:29] Mike: I do for me the for me the ah the the key thing was that I didn't understand what I should do and there wasn't enough. Yeah, okay that it's ah right? So that was it was just that so I had like an urge I would get erections I would be so I would have like.
[45:34] Keith: I didn't either until I found the sleeping bag.
[45:46] Mike: Ah fantasies I would fantasize stuff like that I'd be like oh this is you I Just yeah oh I did oh oh oh in the sense that I did Yes, that's true I didn't know I would fantasize about like women but I didn't know or girls but I didn't know that I was supposed to be fantasizing about putting my penis in their vagina if that.
[45:47] Keith: For sure I didn't I remember I didn't exactly know what I was fantasizing about though.
[46:03] Keith: Right.
[46:05] Mike: Or in like stroking you know if I didn't know the mechanics of it because if I know the mechanics I could have simulated them with my hand I just didn't know what what? what to simulate So it took ah some period of time for me to deduce that and the way that I deduced it was that someone.
[46:10] Keith: Right? right? Yes, okay I had the same experience I know.
[46:24] Mike: Ah, no, no, no nothing bad happened somebody. Ah I remember this somebody that I knew I don't remember who it was was trying to indicate that something that it that someone had said was just silly and whatever and they made the jerking off motion with their hand and I was like in my bed.
[46:40] Keith: Ah.
[46:43] Mike: As one is as a teenager kind of like fantasizing and thinking and I was like huh I Wonder why people make that motion I was like wait a minute I like label one up and I realized people when I was in bed when I I that I don't know the details of exactly when I thought but it just it.
[46:50] Keith: And you're like really excited for like eighth period so you can go home and try. Yeah, yeah.
[47:02] Mike: And and people of course nowadays would say that's so silly you know couldn't you just watch porn. Well this was a little bit before not massively before but a little bit before porn became available enough exactly yeah.
[47:06] Keith: Yeah I will and I had I had access to like porn but it was like stills and they were they were on there on bbses so they were kind of like Playboy or penthouse at best you didn't get like.
[47:18] Mike: Yes I have that stuff but it didn't you. There's like a little bit of mechanical element that you need to have revealed you and and it's much more so for women because like yeah, there's not a whole lot of I mean nowadays of course you could go on pornob and find a woman masturbating but it's not the most popular porn video.
[47:24] Keith: Um, right? Oh yeah.
[47:37] Keith: Right.
[47:37] Mike: You'd have to sort of search around for it to find like a believable orgasm or a woman because I mean a woman That's the other issue with like forced orgasms or just generally vibrators on women in porn is it's boring because they just sit there. They lie there with this thing on them. It's great for them. But it's not it just doesn't make good video. So.
[47:53] Keith: Right? Yeah, okay I I think she should really try masturbating. Yeah.
[48:06] Mike: She's get a vibrator. Yes I think for what most women, a vibrator kind of overcomes that ah it's intense enough that they can get there.
[48:14] Keith: Yeah I think it's I think the feeling is so good I think there isn't really a good analog for men maybe p I v guess all right? all right? Let's move on my wife a 32 year old.
[48:21] Mike: Um, oh it's supposed to be something up your butt but we've discussed that. Yeah.
[48:29] Keith: Said I a 35 year old can receive oral from other woman a few days ago my wife and I were out for some drinks and friends and both ended up getting pretty wasted wasted enough that I don't remember how this came up but what I do remember is she said she wouldn't care if I got head from another woman as long as there was no kissing or intercourse. Okay. That's the null set of situations. But let's let's go on I recall being slightly upset, offended confused and her reassuring me that as long as it was his head was all it was she was fine with this this might sound cool fantasy wise but it has been haunting me every day since. Obviously a sober conversation is needed for actual clarity on this matter. What's your stance on this. We've been together for 10 years married for less than one and I just can't wrap my head around being okay with someone you love do this man. This guy's grammar. Maybe this topic is better suited for relationship sub but I'll guess I'll try here first.
[49:25] Mike: Um, okay.
[49:27] Keith: Ah, edit for additional information just thought it was necessary to add that this is never something I would suggest seek or pursue just simply trying to dissect the motive or reasoning behind someone bringing up something of this nature. Okay I mean included this because the sort of. Scaffolding that people erect around Morality is kind of wild. Um I don't know why his wife proposed this then the no kissing and no intercourse thing. So like what does she even imagine. For starters, she was just drunk and maybe just she um.
[49:46] Mike: Right.
[50:03] Keith: Sure she didn't mean this. Um.
[50:03] Mike: Probably I mean what's well there are other things you could do besides Kiss and do intercourse it's interesting that those are the lines I mean I can okay the lines that I've seen drawn kissing is a common one. Okay for obviously series like.
[50:10] Keith: That's true.
[50:17] Keith: Yes, it is yeah we also pretty with was it pretty woman where she wouldn't kiss her Johns or was that some other okay.
[50:24] Mike: That sounds that sounds familiar. But that's a common thing and then the other one is where the guy places his semen is often like a restriction um intercourse fully is a little bit less common I don't know because at yeah, at some point you're just basically saying you're saying you.
[50:32] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[50:44] Keith: Right.
[50:44] Mike: But you can go to a strip club I Yeah I mean it maximum. So.
[50:52] Keith: I Mean Ah, for starters I mean he added that that edit I'm not sure I believe him he was like just thought it was necessary to add. This is never something I would suggest seek or pursue. It's like ah I think the gentleman doth protest too much.
[51:05] Mike: I think that I think that almost all men or yeah more than 75% of men would seek and pursue this or like would be interested.
[51:16] Keith: Yeah I think he worried that she would see this and he should worry because the first paragraph is like reads as if he's obsessed with this and tried to figure out whether he should go for it and then he adds this edit which.
[51:27] Mike: Yeah, yeah.
[51:32] Keith: He probably added so that he could show his like partner later or something. Ah.
[51:35] Mike: Yeah I mean it's it's but I mean it. Yeah I mean the communication about this would probably be better generally if they were able to be on if he were able to be honest about the fact that basically any guy wants to do this I don't I mean. I Understand that it must be difficult for women and women have to Confront the reality that guys are not don't Want. Do do fidelity for the most part.
[52:00] Keith: Yeah I don't know how that experience goes for women I've tried to have honest conversations about this with some of my longer term partners and it just always goes badly. They just get upset and it's pretty fucking upsetting.
[52:18] Mike: With the which what's the conversation that you've tried that upsets them is did do you suggest ah opening your relationship or okay.
[52:18] Keith: Um, ah no, no, no I don't think opening relationships is a good idea with people who with women who want to have a monogamous relationship. It's just they'll be so upset. So like even if you can somehow cajole or coerce them.
[52:31] Mike: Right.
[52:38] Keith: Into agreeing to let you fuck other people they will be so upset that the relationship is ruined anyway. So you should just like it's just not um, but no like I've tried to have realistic conversations about how? Ah yeah, my like.
[52:42] Mike: A grade a grade. Yes.
[52:51] Mike: Just how they feel about it.
[52:55] Keith: No something more like my sexual attraction to them will wane over time.
[53:02] Mike: Ah, that I mean how would what? what is the personality in your mind of a woman who would tolerate that conversation. What what would have to be going on in her mind like oh yeah, that's true.
[53:10] Keith: Ah, Ok I can't imagine not constantly thinking about that as a woman like feeling my attraction slowly slipping away as I go through my twenty s and thirty s I would think about it constantly. And I would feel so then why is it so painful to have an an honest conversation about that.
[53:28] Mike: Um, I think they do.
[53:37] Mike: Ah, because there's like a fantasy Well Okay, there's a couple things. First of all I think they the the proof that they do is just the cosmetics industry and so forth like I mean it's clearly evidenced that that this is a hot topic in a relationship setting.
[53:47] Keith: A thing they know about yeah.
[53:53] Mike: There is a presupposition that you ah ah are operating on a different level from that So you you know our connection is deeper than that. It's spiritual where each other's soulmate or something and so what? But essentially, you're you Okay and.
[54:00] Keith: No why I aspire to have a relationship like that. But I would like it to be the case that I am forever Maximally attracted to my partner. But. Me a fucking break. That's not like lying about that isn't useful. Maybe it is actually maybe it's better to lie.
[54:18] Mike: Um, well the hang on the.
[54:27] Mike: Okay I think that I think that the problem here is that they rightly deduce that when you have that conversation with them. You're basically signaling to them that you're not that into them.
[54:40] Keith: Ah, yeah, maybe I don't know wow.
[54:44] Mike: Because they think to themselves Oh if I were if if if we were a better match if I were better. Whatever then he wouldn't think that then he wouldn't ah.
[54:54] Keith: Yeah I mean this is getting deeper that I generally like to get on this podcast. But yeah, like maybe I'm almost like sabotaging the relationship by saying something like that. But ah like ideally.
[55:03] Mike: Probably but I mean it's you could be being honest at the same time.
[55:09] Keith: Ah, your sort of mental and emotional connection to someone grows as your physical connection weakens and I think that's just sort of the natural core. That's the natural course of affairs and you sort of hope that that's what happens. But but yeah.
[55:15] Mike: Okay.
[55:23] Mike: That's the point. That's the point you're trying to make I mean it's not possible for you to just to ah.
[55:27] Keith: Yeah, like.
[55:33] Mike: Okay, here's what I would say about that here's what I would say about that I think that the more common thing that goes on is that the the maturing adult male brain Indexes less strongly on like attract a.
[55:33] Keith: Yes.
[55:52] Keith: Maximum physical attraction. Yeah.
[55:53] Mike: Yeah maximum and and and this is an important thing I Want to say I think a lot of that has to do with having kids because when you're around when you're around like teenage girls. They become less attractive. It's something that I've noticed they do because you're not yes, that's right, That's right because it's because you because.
[55:58] Keith: It might.
[56:07] Keith: Ah, because they're so lame. No.
[56:12] Mike: In your mind you're putting the brain of like an intelligent person into that that video you're you're masturbating through right? but that's not what's going on instead. It's it's It's very.
[56:16] Keith: Well yeah, it's a you know you? we all see we all see movies where like the young women are you know nuclear physicists and also 12 out of 10 s of course.
[56:30] Mike: <unk>re just people that you can barely talk to and they don't know anything me even if they're like have a high Iq or something it doesn't matter because they just don't know anything and which can be an alluring I guess because then they look up to you and they want to learn from you stuff. So okay, but it always has that dynamic to it and so they don't feel like a peer. Um, and so I think naturally, that's that kind of makes up for it. But if you don't interact with people that age very much then yeah, it could remain this kind of fantasy and you remember people of that age when you were that age and so you think oh Wow stupid. Yes, um, but yeah I don't know in terms of.
[56:55] Keith: Right? All right? Yeah, you were able to perceive that they were yeah.
[57:09] Mike: Ah, yeah, yeah, I hear what you're saying you're you're basically saying that women don't want to have like the reason they don't want to have that conversation is because they don't think you're just that you're making a philosophical point. They think you're making a point about them I think right? It's not yeah the point you're trying to make is philosophical is that like look like.
[57:25] Keith: Yeah I guess.
[57:27] Mike: No female's attractiveness goes up after like age 18 and so you're you're interested in like coping or like sort of modulating that.
[57:35] Keith: I Just would I would like to have like ah I would really like to interrogate women about what that feels like because ah I'm really curious about it like I feel like. I Guess I'm sort of lucky in this sense I've sort of grown in attractiveness as I've aged like maybe my like raw attractiveness is a little bit lower but like relative to other people my age I think it's gone up and so I just haven't really.
[57:57] Mike: Sure for.
[58:02] Keith: Had to face that thing that I think most women face which is over time they can just feel that people treat them differently and you know they're they're you know pretty privileged sort of fades and I think it's a really interesting thing to think about and I would like to have conversations about it. But it's It's such a fraught topic. Ah, especially with your own I think it is maybe maybe it's fraught with your own partner like I could speak abstractly with other women about it but not your own partner I'm not sure.
[58:23] Mike: Um, really.
[58:34] Mike: Yeah I mean they don't want too much too much reality to intrude in your conversations I guess it seems it seems like a valid topic and it's something I mean it's a little bit I think for asking a woman about it is a little bit like ah, asking a fish how the water feels today or whatever because it's just such to them. The. Ah, yeah, just it's completely a part of their life like it's not It's a basic fundamental. It's like it's it's a little bit like asking a woman what it's like not to have a penis. It's like well I've never had a penis so I don't know so it's like yeah they don't they've always known that this that they had like this.
[59:02] Keith: Yeah, it just is right.
[59:10] Mike: Time period when they could reproduce and that there was like this maximum attractiveness. This is a thing that's very clear to women. They know it like every woman knows that like the point of cosmetics is making you you look younger, go ahead.
[59:18] Keith: I Don't know I I guess I'm going to push back on this I'm going to push back on this a bit like I was not ah, very attractive, growing up like I was sort of skinnier but also like. A bit fatter because I wasn't in shape. Um like I was more lanky or something and I don't know like I didn't have like my hair figured out yet and I didn't dress the way I dress but and anyway in any case, Yeah like I I've had like some sort of.
[59:35] Mike: Who.
[59:49] Keith: Like growth and attractiveness of as I've aged and I think I could say some sort of interesting things about like how we've been able to change my experience How I've been able to feel my experience in the world change because of that. Um, so yeah, that's true.
[01:00:02] Mike: But that's an unusual experience see like that's not the experience that ah right, most men become sort of linearly. Well, that's not right. They become so more slowly but like I would say linearly less attractive up to a certain age and then it gets worse than it happens all at once? yeah.
[01:00:13] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:00:19] Mike: And women. It's linear probably but steeper. Yeah, so I A little surprised you can't have a get someone into a real conversation I Just don't know what you would expect to learn I mean it's just sort of.
[01:00:22] Keith: Yeah, yeah, it doesn't I don't I don't envy that part of the female experience at all. That's it.
[01:00:37] Mike: It is what it is yeah.
[01:00:38] Keith: I don't know maybe a good thought. Experiment is someone like Allie like do you think she would be comfortable talking about it.
[01:00:45] Mike: Um, no I'm I'm it probably wouldn't be her favorite topic ever I mean she probably would but it probably wouldn't be like super comfortable for yes.
[01:00:47] Keith: And she's pretty comfortable talking about most things. So right? Yeah, she's she's a good sport in rhetorical combat generally. But yeah.
[01:01:01] Mike: I mean because implicit in that is you're going to like like no woman is going to love having like a conversation about her attractiveness even like no matter what where you are on the attractive scale.
[01:01:08] Keith: Well, especially under the like auspices of it having gone down.
[01:01:15] Mike: That too. Yeah, but it's it's it's sort of.
[01:01:18] Keith: Not that that's necessarily the case Allie if you're listening anyway pedal to it for this episode of your biage may vary. Ah we always like getting feedback, especially negative feedback since that's something we can act on and try to get better and also it's sort of. Fun to hear what terrible things we said we pay $10 for any feedback we receive even if it's short and lazy. So if you want to send us feedback send it to ymmvpod at gmail.com you can also ask us questions there if you want us to not use your question on the air say so and.
[01:01:51] Mike: Or if you or if you just want to send us a cock ring. Someone's sending us a cock ring. So yeah, yeah.
[01:01:55] Keith: I saw that thanks for ah, staying on top of that good job. Um, but yeah, why? and why mmv pid to Gmail.com is the address for everything. Um. Thanks for listening and we will catch you next week on your mileage may vary.

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Episode 138: Sugar-Escort Axis, Partially Open Marriages, Partner Mutual Pleasure, Liking Odd Smells

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