YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary Podcast

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Episode 145: The Pleasure Principle, Sexual Altruism, Are Romance Novels Porn?, You Accessed Her Breasts: Now What?

Team YMMV | 12-1-2023 | 1:03:44

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If you're like me, and I can only assume that you are, your enjoyment of sex follows the pleasure principle and the harm principle. In other words, my main reason for wanting to do things is because they turn me on and make me feel good. I'm not a goddamned sexual charity after all.

Well, come to find out that there are people out there who view sex in some sort of enlightened altruistic way. They do it "to increase the utility of all mankind". A bit preposterous when you consider the implications. Might one expect to see altruistic women offering blowjobs for free, because it's not all that much effort to make a man happy? Where would it end?

Alongside considering remaking society, we delve into a woman who wants group sex with a whole cadre of men (no news on who gets to go first, but I'd call him the "winner"). A man claims to get nothing out of playing with his partner's breasts -- and Keith sort of understands where he's coming from. After all, once you've "captured" the breast, what are you supposed to do with it? It's just a piece of human tissue after all.

And how should a man handle a woman who wants, say, an hour of oral sex from him each session. We're talking long enough that she gets up, goes to the fridge, and gets another Mountain Dew to savor while he's doing the deed. When is enough enough? And, is she really having all those "orgasms"?

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/145/literotica

https://ymmv.me/145/gang-bang

https://ymmv.me/145/boobs

https://ymmv.me/145/eaten

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00] Keith: Okay, so Mike I've been listening to some other podcasts and they are substantially more enthusiastic in their intros than I am so I'm going to dial it up a notch. Are you ready? hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is often controversial but mostly in good faith.
[00:07] Mike: Do it? yes.
[00:19] Keith: We have a fantastic list of top sexy topics today to discuss including erotic fiction gangang logistics a man who doesn't like sucking nipples and more and Keith my co-host is Mike are you amped up now. Mike.
[00:34] Mike: I'm amped up and this is Mike your heterosexual co-host ah here with the podcast.
[00:39] Keith: Oh please? Um, yeah, it feels like so much but I was listening back to some of you know our previous episodes and to some other podcasts and yeah I guess to get parody there I need to be more. Enthusiastic.
[00:57] Mike: We have a whole new distribution channel for the podcast now I was able to upload it lockstock and barrel to Youtube because Youtube I think is searching for more revenue and ah they have set up a way for podcasts to be uploaded now you might say why didn't we do it before and the answer is I did do it before.
[01:04] Keith: Yeah.
[01:14] Mike: And we immediately immediately got banned um ah and it and it wasn't for ah it wasn't for any of the things. You'd think you would get banned for I think we got flagged by listeners who felt our our content was insufficiently um, diverse or something I was.
[01:17] Keith: Right.
[01:32] Mike: Too heteronormative or something.
[01:34] Keith: Um, is there a cadre of people on Youtube policing it for purity that I mean who knows yeah, you're just speculating. Yeah.
[01:41] Mike: I think so I'm not a hundred percent on that but I think so I just know we got taken down and I asked them I did a an appeal and they're just like no so something sufficiently bad happened. Yeah.
[01:53] Keith: I mean yeah I mean we've run into all kinds of issues with Google's ah purity police is police because yeah, we've tried advertising on Google and they don't like ads for things that have anything to do with sex because I think they get worried that. So Google doesn't necessarily know where their ads are going to appear and if it appears on content that wouldn't want ads for things that have to do with sex. Their advertisers can get upset and so.
[02:24] Mike: Right? But I mean I think they're changing a little bit I would say so for example, are they use the the ah picture that goes along with the podcast as the picture shown and on Youtube during the audio. And our top 1 right now is a picture of a woman with a camel toe with around one hundred views now keep in mind this is I mean no marketing. This has just been posted to Youtube so numbers aren't big but we've made no effort low effort numbers. The second one is a vintage picture of women with their breasts exposed.
[02:41] Keith: Okay.
[02:55] Mike: And the fourth one is in a butt plug. The third one is just a woman's a very attractive woman's face. Oh I know who it is. It's amarant if you recall and then the sixth one is a woman lying on the beach looking at her chest and the fifth one is Aoc so.
[02:58] Keith: Huh.
[03:01] Keith: Oh yeah, she is an attractive woman.
[03:14] Mike: Ah, yes, so I don't remember it was so a year and a half ago
[03:15] Keith: What did we say about Aoc I don't remember either? Yeah, okay, all right? Well I'm I guess pleased that they don't care anymore. Love to see? Yeah I think you're probably right? um.
[03:26] Mike: I Think they want that revenue.
[03:33] Keith: I was in the shower the other day and I was trying to remember why is bestiality bad I mean I I know that sounds like our listeners couldn't see Mikes sort of his face jarred there. Okay like I know that's like a provocative question to ask like.
[03:33] Mike: A.
[03:42] Mike: Um, why.
[03:51] Keith: You know both people would say like well bestiality is obviously bad but okay counterpoint. Ah, what's better like murdering or rape and you know the the line there can be a little bit fuzzy and a lot of animals that are going through bestiality aren't really getting raped there. I Don't know what their experience of having sex with a human is but you know that's it's It's probably in some cases tolerable for them and they live a pretty awesome life. So yeah, like why is bestiality like so taboo in our culture and eating animals is so. Ah, universally accepted.
[04:32] Mike: Right? You're basically saying ah you're basically saying that an animal given the choice would rather be raped than eaten I mean I would I feel that way like which would you choose right? um.
[04:40] Keith: I I think I would rather be raped than eden. Yeah I'd rather be raped than even.
[04:49] Mike: Yeah, so given that given that okay.
[04:50] Keith: Ah, and that's not even the right comparison like I would rather live. Ah you know like let's say I'm a I'm a dog you know lives with a a farmer I live in a really nice. You know, open. Lots of places to run my my owner really cares for Me. He feeds me Great Food. He gives me attention and then you know every other day I have to do the needful but my life is you know, objectively probably in the top 1% of all dogs. So.
[05:20] Mike: Right? I have a slightly different argument that I think you'll enjoy I agree with no pro pro pro at least at least in the current cultural Milia which is that so the the dominant and I think it's fair to say dominant.
[05:22] Keith: I'm not even sure we're making the right comparison here anti beastiality or pro beastiality. Okay, let's hear it. Ah.
[05:40] Mike: Cultural trope now is based off of a philosophical tradition called Postmodernism which is basically that everything is subjective right? So you um, all cultures are equivalent all kind of subjective experiences are equivalent with some kind of um principle that says well you can't.. You're not supposed to hurt other people right? So It's like well there there will be some objective objective Criticism If if I said hey my culture is I like to kill all people whose last name starts with the R or something that that would be unacceptable but you know excluding things like that. Um, kind of all cultures are equivalent.
[06:12] Keith: Ah, okay.
[06:19] Mike: And um I regret to inform people that have this but I mean the majority of people that now have this kind of viewpoint about how things should be interpreted I regret to inform them that there are cultures in the world that practice bestiality. Um, and.
[06:33] Keith: Yeah.
[06:36] Mike: So given that I mean as a cultural practice. It becomes impossible to criticize it because once you criticize it, you're basically saying hey ah your eurocentric white culture is is better. You're saying it's objectively better and these people have a huge problem with that. Um quick Google search for me found an article that says.
[06:53] Mike: Ah, study found that 35% of men from rural Brazil have had sex with an animal a total of yeah 492 men took part in the study aging aging 18 to 80 these are urologists that looked for it and um, yeah, they found that they were ah.
[06:55] Keith: Yeah I knew the Brazil thing. Yeah.
[07:11] Mike: Substantial not of sex with animals and they found that those who were having sex with animals were substantially more likely to develop cancer of the penis. So that's you know so there is some downside.
[07:21] Keith: Whoa. That's the downside risk ok all right I guess I have to stop fantasizing about goats I don't want to get dick cancer that sounds bad.
[07:26] Mike: So a total of of these men and remember it was 35% of the men and those are the ones that admitted it by the way. So I mean it's probably more than 35% but whatever um of them 59% did so for 1 to 5 years
[07:30] Keith: Oh.
[07:44] Mike: Ah, 21% did it for more than 5 years so so so when you say what's wrong with it I mean my response would be yeah, this is a cultural practice in some places and and I mean it's like it sounds farcical but but frankly, given the cultural expression that's going on right now in the United States
[07:46] Keith: Yeah.
[08:02] Mike: I Don't actually know what they would say back? What what sort of a woke person would say back against that it's like look yeah I should be able to fuck a goat ah as long as it's like ah you know.
[08:03] Keith: Yeah, okay, okay, so we have like 2 2 pro bestiality arguments here. The first is just from like first principles. It doesn't really seem like it's worse than murder and we're constantly murdering animals for. Our benefits. So what would be wrong with with raping an animal and then level.
[08:24] Mike: I Mean there you could argue hey you need to bestialize a cow a chicken a sheep a goat you might exclude a dog because we don't typically eat dogs right? or a cat.
[08:36] Keith: Um, yeah, but I feel like aren't pigs more capable ah not cerebral. They have more cognitive function than dogs and on almost all axes. So and we're killing we're murdering we're murdering pigs which I think you can argue is.
[08:43] Mike: Sure Maybe but I mean true.
[08:52] Keith: Is worse than murdering a dog because a pig has more cognitive function just like murdering a human is worse than murdering a snail. Um.
[08:56] Mike: Upgrade I Really prefer the idea of having sex with chickens but go on.
[09:02] Keith: Ah, what is the name. What is the name of their hole. They have like 1 hole for pooping and peing. Yeah, that's the 1
[09:08] Mike: And the eggs come out of it to the cloacca. So yeah, the the eggs often have poop on them. It's rough.
[09:18] Keith: that's that's hot um okay yeah, okay so argument one is that yeah like rape isn't worse than murder and we're all complicit in the murder. Not we we all are are vegans. But ah, we're we're complicit in the murdering of animals and then yeah argument 2 is.
[09:31] Mike: Sir.
[09:35] Keith: There are lots of cultures where sleeping with animals is at least more normalized that it is and the culture that we live in and who are we to judge that their culture is worse. Okay.
[09:45] Mike: Right? I Mean another thing I would point out is that there are certain animals that are endangered truly endangered where they're at risk of um extinction and a lot of times that's due to man-made causes say encroachment on their habitat. Ah, climate change and so forth. These are all again, kind of things that a more left oriented person would be really animated about and I think those animals would much rather say live in a dungeon that I prepared for them and be raped than be extincted I mean.
[10:02] Keith: Um, ah.
[10:17] Keith: Right.
[10:19] Mike: If if if if those are the choices look at see at least their their species still has a chance right? So you could take some ah you know particularly I don't know I don't know the most endangered species.
[10:22] Keith: Right.
[10:28] Keith: Should we should we talk now about how you would make a white Rhinoceros Rape dungeon.
[10:35] Mike: I mean well a blue whale. Oh a giant Panda I mean sure that could be kind of fun giant panda.
[10:42] Keith: A blue whale I know that dolphins get pretty horny are they penetrable. We should move on to something else and ah.
[10:50] Mike: Yeah, well I have something else along the lines of this ah sort of woke culture stuff that I wanted to show you go ahead.
[10:53] Keith: But ok, well before we leave before we leave bestiality I just want to be clear that much of this conversation was head tug in cheek I am not animal curious I don't I can't speak for you. Mike.
[11:09] Mike: I'm not and I I disagree with the dominant culture I I actually do think that you can kind of categorize cultures as superior and inferior to others on various axes and so I disagree with that. But I'm using that I mean I'm like just saying that puts me as a minority where I could be kind of canceled right. So it's ironic that saying I'm anti-bestiality puts me in a category of cancelable people like people should think about the kind of Venn diagrams that their belief systems create because there's a lot of wacky stuff out there.
[11:38] Keith: Um, okay, so like if there was a culture that for example, ah was championing women's rights less you might argue that that is an inferior culture.
[11:50] Mike: I might I might not it would depend on other details about it though. Yeah, but but importantly importantly I mean this is the problem that people I mean like if you listen to Fox News or Ben Shapiro or something they will.
[11:55] Keith: Ah, okay, but point is there could be do yeah go ahead.
[12:06] Mike: Gleefully point out. This is a huge huge problem that left-wing people have ah at least in the modern context with ah say the Middle East conflict because at the same time they'll say hey we want these people to have self-determination. We want them have rights, but these are these are people who are completely anti-feminist. Who in a lot of cases will execute someone for being homosexual and it's like what like how how can you simultaneously argue that there should be gay rights trans rights and all that and then say hey and also let's make sure these people are free to.
[12:28] Keith: Right.
[12:44] Mike: Hoist these people up on cranes publicly and hang them and I've seen videos of them doing this. They definitely do it in places like Iran how can you like it's it's like how is that coherent as an ideology. It just makes no sense.
[12:49] Keith: Right? right.
[12:54] Keith: Yeah, I'm hesitant to dive into this and you don't give it. You don't care.
[13:01] Mike: I'm just I'm not I'm not taking in one side or the other I'm just pointing out that as an ideology. It's incoherent. That's it I'm just saying like look there's something wrong like your your Venn diagram is weird like you the way they overlap makes no sense. That's it. So i.
[13:08] Keith: Right? Yeah I have slipp all right? were you going to were you going to give another anti woke rant or was that was that it.
[13:17] Mike: Yeah I have something no no rant so I'm at ah I'm at a trade show that I regrettably am attending here in Las Vegas I'm in a hotel room at a casino I've not gambled a cent I don't like gambling but I wanted to show you some so when I registered for this show. They gave me some pins. And the first one I got ah actually one of them had just chinese words on it and I asked the lady like do you know what these say and she said no and so I was like how do you know this isn't just like you know, asking me to see my dick or something in chinese presumably something boring. So my first one is this pin that says ally.
[13:44] Keith: Right? right.
[13:53] Mike: And what what do you? It just says a Aol L Y ally ally what do you? What do you take that to mean Keith.
[13:58] Keith: Well Mike they're trying to hit this sweet spot of being sensitive to everybody's cultures and everybody's protests so instead of actually saying a message they can put. Ah.
[14:01] Mike: Okay, all right.
[14:14] Keith: Potentially fake Chinese characters or the word ally and and who can who can disagree with being an ally you know you might say an ally to what but they would say well you're just an ally to the cause that's important to you.
[14:19] Mike: Okay. Okay, let me show you a couple others here I got a pin that says this what does it say.
[14:31] Keith: Um, ask my pronouns.
[14:32] Mike: A pin. It's made of metal. It's a hexagon. It's very nice as ask my pronouns which means I'm encouraging people to ask me what my pronouns are. But then right next to it I can put a pin with my pronouns which I requested this one.
[14:50] Keith: Ah, G Jem I have heard that that X E X E M has been actually suggested by some fairly serious folks as the proper non ah male female.
[14:53] Mike: That's how you pronoun that. Okay.
[15:07] Mike: Okay, and it's it's G not z.
[15:08] Keith: Pronouns because I don't I I guess I've only read this I haven't heard one of these people speak.
[15:13] Mike: Okay, the lady behind the counter did not blink when I asked for that one I mean I I just said oh oh, let me say this. Let me say this one of the pronounon options had 2 chinese characters I'm not kidding.
[15:26] Keith: Ah, oh what I don't think that does che easy even have the concept of pronouns or or sexualizing objects or or or beings like they have a word for woman.
[15:32] Mike: I I don't know I yes I was in a line at this? Yeah I was in a line at this counter and so I couldn't like pull out Google translate I don't I know like.
[15:47] Keith: How long was the line at this counter.
[15:48] Mike: A few a couple hundred chinese characters I don't know these obviously um, long enough that I felt I kind of had to do this sort of quickly. Yeah, yeah, she was she she didn't care what happened.
[15:53] Keith: Okay, okay, you you control her a little bit but not about maximally. Yeah.
[16:04] Mike: Um, but yeah so I got the weirdest one that I knew made I meant something. Yeah I like the idea of having your pronouns be chinese characters because then it's for any person who doesn't speak chinese it's unpronounceable I really think that's ZZen but maybe that would be with a z so I don't know.
[16:15] Keith: It's unpronounceable I mean you could argue G jam is also unpronounceable but same this is the point.
[16:25] Mike: Here's my final pin. This is a cube with showing three sides like a rubi scube sort of and there's a green a yellow and a red and then there's this little dial and you can dial the dial to show whether you want someone to talk to you which means you have it aiming at the green. The yellow means I Guess you're not sure.
[16:27] Keith: 1 is a.
[16:37] Keith: Oh my gosh.
[16:42] Mike: And the red means don't talk to me and I pointed out to the woman behind the counter that she had hers dialed to red and she quickly adjusted it to green because obviously that was suggesting so this is a way to I think this is like for some sort of psychological issue to say hey I don't like being talked to.
[16:47] Keith: Ah, okay.
[16:58] Keith: Yeah I think yeah, okay, thanks because I was going to I didn't know if you wanted me to carry the rest of the show or you know how this was gonna work. Ah, yeah, this is like a.
[17:00] Mike: Um, so as a podcast right? I will rotate it to green. Yeah, right? So This is real. This is real I'm not making any of this up. This was a real thing at a real the set was a conference that. To my my admission I didn't pay for my admission was $2000. It's for a large tech company so listeners. This is like ah this is a real crap that's going on. This isn't like I didn't make this up and and they've got people running around with it does it does? yeah.
[17:24] Keith: This does feel like something from like ten years ago something that would be in the onion or on Saturday night live.
[17:34] Mike: But and I'm not going to wear the Z ze one because I um I don't have those pronouns but I just thought it'd be a funny thing to show people. So.
[17:40] Keith: Yeah, it is a funny thing to show people I am surprised you hadn't heard gs G jem because I would I would think yeah but I would I would.
[17:52] Mike: I've only read it.
[17:56] Keith: Expect that some of the media you consume would as you say gleefully cackle at it.
[18:03] Mike: Sure I mean it's the kind of thing like say libs of Tiktok would make fun of or other relevant accounts. Um I don't I mean yeah, it's it's I mean changing it. Well anyway I have actually talked to a couple of people who'd never seen it before.
[18:07] Keith: Um, that's right, right? right? exactly.
[18:18] Keith: Seen the pronoun thing or the G gem.
[18:19] Mike: So it still hasn't percolated in fully. They thought ah 2 different people I talked to thought it was just this morning thought it was the only that so thought the nonbinary pronoun was they them if that was the only one. Yeah.
[18:32] Keith: I think that's the one that like the New York Times uses for example.
[18:36] Mike: Yeah, they ah people at my kids' school use that and I find it really I I actually find it confusing because of the plural. It's actually difficult for my brain to decipher it. So it's it's irritating for that. So I actually I would say I prefer honestly this one because at least I can yeah at least I can learn.
[18:45] Keith: Um, right? Yeah no, it's it's not ideal. Jija.
[18:56] Mike: Kind of quickly that it's singular to be honest.
[18:57] Keith: Yeah, you don't have to do like this. You don't have to do this processing in your mind which is like oh has the sex of the subject been mentioned before and if it assiduously has not been and now they've used the pronoun them then oh this must be a nonbinary person. But if in Gm then you don't.
[19:11] Mike: Exactly the problem is the problem is I'm well aware of the fact that it doesn't stop with g or z whatever it is gem that they're like 10 others and so it's like right.
[19:16] Keith: That calculus.
[19:23] Keith: Well, there could be infinity others because you can identify once you can. Yeah once you can see at the point that humans aren't just 2 things male or female then you sort of end up in this place where it's a spectrum and then you can.
[19:30] Mike: I didn't I.
[19:43] Keith: There's infinity points on that spectrum. So.
[19:46] Mike: Right? I Wonder by the way whether ah dick the like I'm sure part of our audience prefers just sex talk and part of it likes anti woke rants I'd be sort of curious do like a poll and find out which people prefer what we. I Don't think we've ever gotten a message saying hey cut it out with that stuff most of our messages are sex related. Oh I have another thing to tell you but go on.
[20:02] Keith: Yeah, that's true I don't know are we being anti woke like what have we said like have we said that we don't like Trans people.
[20:15] Mike: It's that's not what wokeness is I have no problem. It's it's it's not I'm fine with trans people. But I don't like the for example, like the thing that they talk about they call book banning in Texas and Florida and stuff like that I I pretty much agree with the book banners even though I'm fine with.
[20:17] Keith: Um, like we're both fine with Trans people. So like what's the.
[20:30] Keith: The books they're choosing to pan you mean.
[20:32] Mike: Ah, Trans people. Yeah because they're because they're they're what they're calling a book Ban is removing books that have like clearly pornographic content from a middle school library which is like I think is like ah something that's happened. You know I mean if you want to add porn to middle school libraries. Let's have that conversation. Let's not pretend.
[20:50] Keith: Are you sure you're not straw manning there like I actually don't know I know that you know you'll see lists posted to Twitter of some of the books that are banned and it'll be like you know Judy Bloom or something and it's like what why is that banned.
[20:51] Mike: It's something different. That's what it is.
[21:05] Mike: Well then I would have then I would disagree then I then I think they shouldn't they should not ban that it's not. It's not it'll be. It'll be some book that has like stuff in it about 2 boys having anal sex with each other. Well.
[21:10] Keith: Okay, I conceptually agree with banning penthouse from the middle school library. Okay I know but now we're haggling over the line I'm I'm sorry we're talking over other I can see at the point that like penthouse should be banned so like there is something that I think that should be banned I agree it should be not 0
[21:26] Mike: Right? well.
[21:29] Keith: And then now we're just arguing where the line is and I don't know where the line actually is because both sides try to try to drum in well go on.
[21:36] Mike: I'm actually I'm actually okay with penthouse I'm actually okay with penthouse not being banned I'm okay with if you said hey we want to have complete free speech in middle school libraries I'd be okay with that the thing I don't like ah because then you can have the conversation you're like look we have hardcore porn in here like.
[21:50] Keith: Yeah, but then the library is just going to turn into a mastur batorium.
[21:52] Mike: Ah, there's a masturbation stall. Well, that's a more practical consideration but like the I'm just saying the thing that the thing that but bothers me is ah pretending something is what it isn't It's that it's like that the honesty of the situation like I don't Yeah, it's like look if you're going to include porn fine.
[22:05] Keith: Okay, so if they're calling it a book ban and they're banning reasonable stuff. You think that's disingenuous.
[22:14] Mike: I Yes I think they're lying about the about what's actually going on and but but like look I'm I'm well aware as everyone is that a middle schooler can find porn. So it's like it's sort of who cares like ah yeah.
[22:24] Keith: Well you yeah well they can find anything if they have a ah phone they almost all do yeah I just don't have an opinion on this because the left media says 1 thing and the right media says the other and as with many things you actually don't get into the nuance of the issue because.
[22:30] Mike: Yeah, that's right? Yeah sure.
[22:42] Keith: Both sides are being disingenuous in their claims.
[22:45] Mike: Ah, that's probably right? yeah.
[22:47] Keith: All right? Ah I mean the first thing I wanted to talk about today was Literotica anyway, so let's let's do it? Um, so this person says I think my wife is addicted to literature porn. My wife.
[22:52] Mike: Nice.
[23:03] Keith: And I have been married for five years now for the last three years we've had a dead bedroom situation I try to initiate and I usually am rejected here is my problem really do take the time to take care and really love my wife in the bed and I'm very generous. That's bit subjective Joey gets her finish first I always light her candles. Focus on what she wants and I always take good care of her after the deed is done while in the dead bedroom so situation I've noticed that she's been reading a lot of books and I got curious if my wife is enjoying something I always try to at least understand it and see why she enjoys it that way. Um, okay, then he writes that exact same sentence twice. Maybe we can share a new hobby if I like it. But I read read these books and usually Tiktok. They said that these types of literature at least involve plot with their stories and characters with background but these books don't have any of that. They're just straight up hardcore sex books where the men are six feet with nine Inch dicks and they're so like me and they're trying up and they're tying up women and beating them I was so shocked to read this.
[23:52] Mike: So.
[24:00] Keith: And it's not like my wife is just reading this once a week every single second of her spare time. She has a book in her hand reading one of these if she's in the car. She's reading if she's at the dinner table. She's reading for watching a movie. She's reading what would you guys do to this situation because my because honestly it's kind of rubbing me the wrong way. Um. The thing I wanted to talk about here. So there are these? What do they call? are they called gothic romance novels is that the ok um I mean these exist you you most often see them in the checkout aisle of Safeway or something. Um, you can.
[24:24] Mike: Just romance novel I think.
[24:37] Keith: Buy them in bookstores probably mostly people get them online now.
[24:41] Mike: A lot of it's sort of like concealed ah cloaked because there is like ah you know it's not just it Well, it's just not. It's not just I mean it's let's see it would be the equivalent of you have the porn site where you just have them fucking.
[24:46] Keith: A veil of modesty.
[24:55] Keith: Listen.
[24:57] Mike: And that's the like look and honestly most guys are going to scroll to that anyway. But then they're like you can watch the entire hour long movie that has some kind of a plot and these have you know their books have a plot. Yeah and these these are like that and and and and to some extent I mean with Literotica like the the setup matters to the consumer.
[25:00] Keith: Right? Oh like this old like those old skin Amax movies. Okay.
[25:17] Mike: More and there are people who consume porn to get the plot it. It makes it more compelling to them. So.
[25:23] Keith: I sometimes will watch the first ninety seconds but it rarely my patience rarely extends beyond that yeah, show me, show me your boots.
[25:30] Mike: Yeah I mean it's there's a gender difference there I think so but but my my only point was that like it's not there. A lot of times. There are books that aren't obviously Literotica that are that's my point.
[25:43] Keith: Yeah, right? Okay, well so this guy's wife appears to be choosing the ones that are but you know very obviously um sex novels and I have seen you do see.
[25:44] Mike: Is is that there's a lot a lot a lot of these sort of romance novels that are like this.
[25:59] Keith: Women reading these novels like you know at an airport or out and about um what I mean I don't know what the right? analog here is for a man like can you imagine you know like you'll occasionally get in an uber and.
[26:00] Mike: Single.
[26:16] Keith: They'll be watching a video on their phone have you encountered this? Maybe you haven't It's more popular in other countries because it's pretty yeah, it's not great. Um, and would it be like I'm just like constantly watching just.
[26:20] Mike: The driver will be okay.
[26:31] Keith: The kind of porn. You just described the porn with a plot like at all times of the day like.
[26:35] Mike: I don't think this should be that confusing to you and the reason why is because I think you more than once in your life have been in a relationship where you were not interested in sex with your partner. But if she had a drone that flew around behind you all twenty four seven she would notice that you. We're consuming a fair amount of porn and beating off to it. So like that's that's the analog.
[26:57] Keith: Yes, no no I understand that this woman is potentially getting her sexual needs fulfilled by a third party. Um, what I don't understand is yeah like you wouldn't see me you know sitting at my. Ah.
[27:04] Mike: Um, yeah, yes.
[27:14] Keith: Office desk in my spare time reading this book or reading it in the checkout aisle or reading it just going about my day like I'm not constantly consuming porn I I Definitely like sit down and like have my little sessions but the way this guy describes and what I've seen. Myself as I said like you know in Airports or wherever you'll you'll see women just like reading these novels and that is the part that I don't quite like what are they reading it for It. Can't be arousal toward reaching Orgasm. There's like some other need being scratched here.
[27:35] Mike: Sure.
[27:48] Mike: Well I mean yeah, that's right, there's I think there's a gender difference there in the like the guy is much more focused on the on the climax and the woman is more focused on just basically like the moderate amount of Arousal for a significant period of time which makes sense I mean I think it makes sense like evolutionarily like.
[27:52] Keith: Um, yeah, me too.
[28:05] Keith: Um, it does make sense. Maybe now that you mention it. It's like she's basically having a relationship with these men that are more exciting than her husband and and it's not the sex. The sex is part of it but a lot of it is you know the titillating power play.
[28:07] Mike: Blah Blah Blah blah.
[28:11] Mike: Yes, what's that's right.
[28:22] Keith: Whatever it is that she's getting from the book.
[28:24] Mike: Um, I mean this is one of the reasons why I mean you can broaden that out to talk about social media like need for communication like these things all differ a bit between men and women and women often want much more so ah, all consuming communication.
[28:35] Keith: And listen.
[28:42] Mike: And so there's like a ah higher relationship need and similarly these books can can sort of fill that. Um, yeah, so this guy yes is sort of faced with with that. He's not. He's not doing what she needs. Um.
[28:57] Keith: Yeah I mean yeah, my answer to this guy would probably be um, seek a divorce I mean that I don't.
[29:04] Mike: Um I don't know about that because I think that there's just some fantasy life that she's she has and well okay so he mentioned that there a certain height and have a certain penis size and I so I took it from that.
[29:11] Keith: Yeah, we know he's short and not well endowed.
[29:16] Mike: Well, it's not I mean there is the slim but non-zero possibility that he's like six foot nine and has a twenty seven inch. You know twelve inch penis. He's like oh I'm I'm too big. Yes, he's probably so a man of small stature perhaps stout maybe balding.
[29:25] Keith: True I would put the odds on that as ah, round to 0 But you're right? It's a non-zero.
[29:34] Keith: Right? But I mean she was attracted to him at some point.
[29:36] Mike: In which case if this may be difficult. Yeah, and I mean a lot of this stuff could be behavioral attractions. There might be things he can do that would amp it up. Um, so I mean this this always gets to that line of should he just try things the consent line. Right? Or should he talk about it and actually talking about it might be a turnoff for her. Oh yeah, it's possible. She would of course I know a feminist would say oh it's never a turnoff but the thing is it is sometimes sometimes like you want to be swept off your feed. So.
[29:56] Keith: Yeah.
[30:07] Keith: Yeah I mean this is a non and as Al gore would say an inconvenient truth but ah, asking for consent is a bit submissive and some women don't like that and we.
[30:18] Mike: Yes, just like if you asked someone whether they like you.
[30:26] Keith: That's right I didn't ask exactly that. But yeah, we we're not talking about that on the air to too is shaped. Okay, ah all right movie God Um, what's the next thing here. Okay I thought you might like this.
[30:31] Mike: But I know if.
[30:42] Keith: Ah, group sex after care hello everyone I a female of 25 years am going to be gangbank for my birthday through exclamation points. It's my ultimate fantasy and my amazing friend with benefits a 24 year old man has helped me arrange it I have 5 guys ready and I can't wait for it to happen.
[30:47] Mike: Oh my god.
[30:58] Keith: <unk> awarere this is going to be very physical for me and I was wondering what the best ways to look after myself before during and after so ah yeah, all right? So this conversation is aic and like the comments here are a goldmine because there's some guy who's an expert and then. She's kind of peppers it with questions and we get some like really good I don't know details on the logistics of a gang ba. Okay so this guy says you need someone who is in charge and will be looking out for your best interests the whole time. In fact, the event should start with somebody outlining basic roles and who has the final authority. You'll be in no condition.
[31:20] Mike: Um, and.
[31:33] Mike: So you need like a gang a gang give gang being um ombudsman. Okay, yeah.
[31:35] Keith: <unk>ll be That's right, an mcc if you will you will be in no condition to supervise things is what I'm saying and then she says my friends with benefits is basically in charge because I realize I'm not going to be able to do much once it starts and then this guy responds good I organized one of these ages ago and it is vital that. Is a person who is clearly in charge dudes can get kind of nutty when they all have their dicks out and there is one set of wet holes smiley face and the one I organized went very well. So there's that and then she asks he knows me well enough that I trust him to know if things are going. Okay for me is a safe word. A good idea this man goes on absolutely have a safe word. You and your friends with benefits should be glued to each other throughout the ordeal he literally needs to have his thumb on your pulse. So okay, up literally. It's a metaphor but still the whole time I contact him mouthing you okay, a lot. Also 5 guys can go longer than you so be prepared to take a break if you start getting worn out you're in for some fun smiley face.
[32:23] Mike: Who knows.
[32:31] Keith: Just make sure safety things are in place like a safe word a plan for him to check in on you throughout etc when I organize this I pretty much just supervised and I had the girl after the event then the after care stuff. Ah I mean it goes on. But yeah, these logistics Oh This guy. Strongly suggest condoms which makes sense. Um and then.
[32:56] Mike: Um, what if her what if her fetish is to have like lots of Jes in her then then stb tests I guess.
[32:59] Keith: That doesn't come up that doesn't come up in the comments. Yeah I think you you come in with Std tests.
[33:05] Mike: And also you'd like you have to find guys that are willing to be number 4 or whatever be plunging.
[33:15] Keith: We've gone through this a little bit in the past but I don't think I would be willing to be guy number 4 in basically any circumstance.
[33:21] Mike: I don't I think okay, there's a couple things I would say about this I mean you're going to guess you're going to get a certain self selected set of guys that'll do this I would say this is I would say something about this for regardless of whether it's 1 guy with a bunch of women or one woman with a bunch of guys.
[33:27] Keith: Yett know until present. Yeah.
[33:41] Mike: And because there's a fair amount of porn in particular on the oculus the vr porn often has these things where there's like 12 women. This may just be me but whatever the genders I find it sort of I actually find it genuinely unattractive and a turnoff.
[33:48] Keith: Ok.
[33:59] Mike: Having all these people that are just doing nothing because you can't like there's only so much like you could have 2 people interacting with your body but like when there's like 12 all you have is like people kind of cheering you on and it comes across inauthentic to me even if it's women. It's just like what do I don't know.
[33:59] Keith: Yeah I did.
[34:18] Mike: They doing there. They're just sort of clapping.
[34:20] Keith: Um, yeah I mean even in threesome porn. It just feels at least when a woman is pretending to get fucked on camera. There's sort of the physicalness of it and even if she's a bad actress. She can sort of fake it in a way that's not annoying. But if there's 2 women. Well yeah, one of them is just sort of sitting around awkwardly and you can tell they've been coached in like things they can do when they're not the 1 being penetrated but it just feels lame and then yeah as you every incremental woman you.
[34:37] Mike: Right.
[34:55] Keith: You add the less there is to do and so yeah.
[34:55] Mike: Right? So The so the most the most compelling to me threesome or moresome porn of course is for me as a hetero man is going to be multiple women and a guy. But importantly, the thing that makes it feel the most authentic. Is if the women are kind of having sex with each other so very much M f f not Fmf. Um, just because then like they all have something to do that like seems seems compelling to them. Um, okay, and then you could say Well what about if it's multiple men.
[35:20] Keith: And. Yeah.
[35:34] Mike: Yes, i've've I've taste tested that kind of porn and if you're interested in that kind of porn. It gets posted somewhat frequently on the chick flicks subreddit that's chick flicks with three X's at the end, the problem is that ah when they have mmf porn where the guys want to interact with each other first of all like I'm not.
[35:40] Keith: Little.
[35:53] Mike: That interested in watching gay porn and so are gay is the wrong word but like sort of male, male porn and secondly my gayar always goes off I think that the actors tend to be gay in those situations and so then it's like sort of but and also I'd look I don't want to watch 2 guys have sex. But I mean I could see that being I could I can understand why a woman who wants to see.
[36:03] Keith: I Think that's right, yeah.
[36:12] Mike: Threesome porn would have the same reaction I have like oh I want to see the guys enjoying themselves even though they're going to be. They're potentially going to be guys that give off the vibe of being gay which might be a turnoff so um, so but so in this case where a woman wants to have a gang bang with guys like I mean I think that the.
[36:15] Keith: Um, yeah.
[36:22] Keith: Yeah.
[36:31] Mike: To my my mind the most. Ah okay, the thing that I imagine she wouldn't want is to have a bunch of guys standing around her jacking off. Although maybe that's what she wants because for me, that's pretty unattractive. So basically what's goingnna happen is she's just gonna have a succession of guys if she doesn't want to have guys standing around jacking off. She's going to a succession of guys fucking her.
[36:37] Keith: Right.
[36:51] Mike: And it's kind of like look that's not that different than 1 guy fucking you maybe maybe it's like oh it's exciting because they're different.
[36:54] Keith: Yeah I mean it's tricky I I can't really imagine what it is that she likes about this. Maybe it's that she likes the idea of giving men pleasure like using her body as a pleasure creating object and so. It could be that she would it would be she would like if they were masturbating next to her while watching the proceedings I'm not I Just don't know I don't know.
[37:22] Mike: But she's got to know I mean it's inauthentic sort of because these guys are having to look at each other while they're beating off which isn't great. It's the same problem of like I mean you can imagine being having MFM or 1 guy's in her mouth and 1 guy's in her say vagina um p I v.
[37:28] Keith: Um, yeah.
[37:36] Keith: This is.
[37:40] Mike: Um, but you have the same problem because the guys are having to look at each other and I always think like who like while that scenario could be maybe compelling as a guy like I Really don't want to watch the sexual response cycle I was actually talking to my wife about this just the other day that I just I would not want to just like conceptually.
[37:58] Keith: Um, ah.
[37:58] Mike: I don't want to watch the sexual response cycle of another guy. It just bums me out like I don't yeah so so that so like so like she would have to know that like I was I had this really bad video I was watching wall 2 think it's like oh no like I'd I almost rather watch almost anything else.
[38:04] Keith: Right.
[38:11] Keith: Right.
[38:17] Mike: But having sex than that.
[38:18] Keith: Yeah I think these people have to be bisexual or at least less hetero things are on a spectrum two things I like in ah threesome porn is I like it when the women.
[38:23] Mike: Yeah, yeah.
[38:35] Keith: 1 of them's in dogie style and then another woman is sort of on top of her also in dogie style and then the man will like alternate vaginas.
[38:43] Mike: Oh sure I think yeah, there's okay, go on. Yes.
[38:48] Keith: That's kind of cool and then they also do the thing where like there'll be 2 women like on the edge edge of a bed and missionary and he'll like beat swapping in between. Yep.
[38:53] Mike: We we wait wait me, let's let's go back to the first one. The women are on top of each other doggie style.
[39:00] Keith: Um, yeah, 1 ne's like squatting over the other one.
[39:02] Mike: Okay, that's a little weird because they can't interact with each other.
[39:06] Keith: It's it's physically difficult. No, they can't and the reason the thing that made me think of this is yeah what are those women doing when like 1 is getting fucked and the other is like standing by um, well yeah, that's right.
[39:20] Mike: They're thinking about how much money they're making for the minutes they sitting here but what about but I wouldn't you rather? Yeah, even even if they really wanted to do it. What would they be doing. They would be thinking about ticktock. Um what? what? a wouldn't you rather they be face to face.
[39:24] Keith: But like hypothetically what are they doing? yeah that they wouldn't do this in real life like.
[39:38] Mike: And then you kind of come in slip in behind them or kind of between their four legs if that's even possible I'm not sure if that's physically possible. No no, they're lying on top of each other.
[39:43] Keith: Um, ones like yeah I guess like 1 ne's like squatting on the other one. Oh yeah, so instead of alternating between doggy to doggggie or missionary to missionary I'm switching from dogie to missionary. Yeah.
[39:55] Mike: Right? And they're lying on sort of a bed so that they're at the end you're at the end of the bed I'm not I'm actually not too sure that would physically work. Well um I think that I think probably the most actually functional 1 is one woman giving the other oral.
[39:59] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not either. But.
[40:10] Keith: Yeah, you see that a lot.
[40:11] Mike: You're fucking her Gogie or whatever. Yeah, because that's just like physically more possible and I have no idea I have no reports on if some woman wants to report on this. She can via email I have no reports on like whether the woman receiving oral in that situation is getting. Good oral I suspect not because the other woman's being jostled so much.
[40:34] Keith: Yes, yeah, she might be like smashing her face into the other person's vagina as she's getting smashed underneath. Um all right? Well we'll put the ah gang bang after care and during care stuff in the show notes if you want to.
[40:41] Mike: Right.
[40:51] Keith: Any of our listeners want to take notes. Um, let's see this person wonders do some men just not like sucking boobs hey I saw a post if someone saying her boyfriend doesn't like sucking boobs in fact has never and he gets weird about it if the issue is raised.
[41:05] Mike: Is.
[41:07] Keith: Said he was a boob guy and the girl even said he likes touching and fondling but doesn't want to suck my question is why do some men not like sucking boobs all right? So the general speculation thing is people equate it to breastfeeding and it makes them feel uncomfortable for some reason but I can't.
[41:20] Mike: Yeah.
[41:25] Keith: I mean yeah I can overcome that. Um.
[41:26] Mike: Yeah I mean the time when the time when I can feel that emotion is if I'm refracting right? if I'm not if I'm not in the mood. So like I it's hard for me not to put this in that category of like the guy just not. He's not that into you or something like that I think that.
[41:33] Keith: Yeah.
[41:45] Keith: Yeah, ah yeah I think it's pretty odd. The only plausible thing I could think is that yeah it is connecting it to breastfeeding for some reason I was thinking about the shape of the function of my ah compulsion.
[41:45] Mike: Yeah.
[42:00] Mike: Um, you know.
[42:05] Keith: To interact with boobs is is sort of odd so before I've interacted with a person's boobs like I really want to like whenever I see you know breast tissue in any circumstance. It's It's always compelling and when I'm with a partner. It's compelling and then.
[42:07] Mike: Oh.
[42:24] Keith: It's a little bit like when the dog catches the car. Um like you what when I first get it. It's like really great like I'm like oh yeah, I'm like finally like getting to like grope these breasts and suck on them. But then like after a minute of that. It's not really that interesting anymore. Like it's the it's the not having and the and the just initially having.. That's the best parts Do you is your experience similar.
[42:50] Mike: I Understand the I understand what you're saying I think that's ah I have had that experience as well. Basically you Yeah, there's not they don't actually do anything so you're kind of like a yeah you get this sort of urge.
[43:00] Keith: Yeah.
[43:05] Mike: I've had this urge before it's it's it's remind. It's not an urge but it reminds me of the urge to eat something. It's like it's like but when you eat something like you eat it. You consume it. But you see you can't eat or consume these things So it's sort of like well you have this urge. But then you're like oh well this is this this is. It's kind of limited.
[43:12] Keith: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah.
[43:24] Mike: Um, and um, yeah I mean it's a I agree. It's sort of a curious, a curious limitation on the Urge. Ah, ah it does seem to come Back. Um. For the same person. Although maybe for you are yeah yeah, do you find that as like a diminishing arc for the same person.
[43:43] Keith: No I don't think so it definitely does come back like it's like ah it's a new gift every time.
[43:48] Mike: Right? Yeah I mean I like I I mean it might give you some this might give you some insight into the way women perceive their own breasts. It's just like yeah there's not that much they do. It's like well right? So it sort of operates as a hindrance I mean the the other thing of course is that.
[43:55] Keith: Yeah, yeah, it's just just tissue.
[44:08] Mike: Depending on the particular woman and the amount of pleasure that provides that can be compelling. Um, yeah, that's sort of different.
[44:12] Keith: Sure Yeah, the the the the the apex of the function and like the Width vary by woman but the general shape I think is probably around the same.
[44:25] Mike: It's It's interesting that so the drive toward the woman's Vagina or her mouth basically to fuck her to have sex with her has a physical payoff orgasm and so it makes sense that you would have an ongoing drive the one for breasts actually doesn't really.
[44:34] Keith: Yes.
[44:40] Keith: Um, right.
[44:42] Mike: And it's interesting that you don't that your brain seems program I mean most things your brain is able to learn. Oh this isn't you know if there's a water slide that you really are excited to go down and you go down a bunch of times and you're like okay, it's sort of boring. You'll probably remember that for quite some time this one doesn't ah this one there. There must be some like neurons in your brain that.
[44:52] Keith: Right.
[45:02] Mike: Erase that prevent the short-term memory of like that boredom you're describing from ever encoding to long-term memory or something think your brain's designed to stop that from happening.
[45:08] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah I mean there's things that I mean I think breasts Imply Fecundity imply fertility and that's part of why there's such a signal for us. But. As for the compulsion to I mean there's other things that imply fertility like having healthy hair and I don't you know have the compulsion to like you know wrap myself in Partners's hair and so but yeah, with with boobs I Really do want to touch them and interact with them initially. Then then it sort of fades. Um.
[45:45] Mike: Yeah I mean I think that like I think that I think that for me the probably. It's probably mostly that my brain knows that if I get to interact with a female nipple I'm probably going to get to ejaculate with a partner.
[46:00] Keith: Maybe that's what it is yeah.
[46:03] Mike: Yeah, so it's like it's because those are so connected like so for it's it's There's an interesting question. You could ask there which is like okay, let's say that let's say where there was a cultural norm or you lived in a society where yeah, there was a way to interact with women's breasts but you couldn't masturbate. It was just that.
[46:21] Keith: Loses.
[46:22] Mike: Well I mean I guess it would be a little bit like being whatever so a gyne college. Whatever kind of doctor does mammograms or whatever I'm not sure what I actually don't know what kind of doctor that is well okay, but it's like ah maybe it's a radiologist but I mean like.
[46:27] Keith: Yeah, some kind of oncologist or radiologist. Maybe yeah.
[46:36] Mike: Is that like I Don know I mean there's the ure ah, your urologist. There's the proctologist but I don't think there's like a breastologist I'm not sure if there is a yeah in any event. Um.
[46:41] Keith: I Don't know Yeah I don't know it if it feels like if there was a word for it. It would be well known because the word for procologist proctologist is so well known like it. It would be like a joke. Oh I'm a boob doctor.
[46:51] Mike: Yeah, right? Exactly exactly? Um, but yeah I mean I think I think that it would I think that the it's probably the right analysis here is that the absence of orgasm at the end of an interaction. It's the same thing that a male gynecologist.
[47:09] Mike: Ah, certain sex criminals accepted. Um that yeah they they it's not sexual to them because like they're like oh and if I'm in my um examination room I don't I'm I'm touching a vulva but I don't get to ejaculate so they learn it doesn't matter all that being said, all that being said.
[47:20] Keith: Yeah, yeah, it's not right.
[47:29] Mike: I Still think I would prefer a world where there was easy access to large amounts of breasts.
[47:32] Keith: Yeah, you've been obsessed with this for as long as they've known you like you've imagined like a breast bar where you could go in at fondle. Um, and you've pointed out that you know they're They're not getting penetrated here. Um, if it could be culturalized as not sex work. You know what's what's the problem here. Yeah if I.
[47:39] Mike: Sure sure I think that would be nice.
[47:52] Mike: Right? Yeah, so I think I think I think it would be somewhat better but I don't think it would be like amazingly better I think it would be like a minor improvement in the world. Um, and the problem of course being that you'd have like the it would be hard to.
[47:52] Keith: Heard you wrangle with this over the years
[47:59] Keith: Yeah, yeah, okay.
[48:06] Mike: Manage that because there would be the guys that would secretly beat off and so forth that women would be needlessly exposed to seamen.
[48:10] Keith: Yeah, it would need to be it would need to be similar to a strip club where yeah, there's like big burly bouncers that will beat the shit out of you and you need to feel that downside risk to stop you from indulging whatever sexual needs might arise or sexual impulses.
[48:26] Mike: Yeah I did enjoy going to topless or top optional beaches in Europe I have enjoyed that before ah but it's in some ways it's more annoying because you can't you can look but can't touch so there's that now.
[48:35] Keith: Right? Yeah, you're in like yeah, you're in a more like the beach is already a pretty provocative place depending on the beach of course the north side of Baker Beach in San Francisco is not compelling. For example.
[48:46] Mike: Um, that's right.
[48:50] Mike: It depends on if you're a gay man or not.
[48:53] Keith: This Yeah exactly? Um, but yeah, it could be a frustrating experience and amping up the frustration I don't know if that is good or bad. Actually I mean I can't be as nice, but if you if you can't.
[49:04] Mike: Um, yeah, yeah.
[49:10] Keith: Taste any of the sweet then and what are we even doing all right right? Yeah yeah, like outside of like my teenage years I don't think there have been too many situations where I'm like interacting with breasts and not.
[49:11] Mike: But to your point but to your point touching the breasts probably isn't tasting it either. It's like unfortunately like the the man the man's never going to be satisfied until he's bullet putting his seed in you.
[49:28] Mike: I Think even there. Yeah right I think even there even as a teenage boy you would get pretty jaded if you get didn't get to I mean yeah, women's the sort of cultural thing women have of like look men are never satisfied unless they're climaxing. They're right? The right.
[49:29] Keith: Having an orgasm within the next hour
[49:39] Keith: Yeah.
[49:45] Keith: Indeed all right? So This person says is it unreasonable to want to be eaten out every time we have sex my boyfriend eats me out almost every time we have sex but whenever he doesn't I feel very sad and shitty for days after the fact, especially when I go home for the week as I spend the weekends with him. But it be unreasonable for me to ask him to eat me out every time we have sex I would reciprocate this as Well. Um.
[50:11] Mike: And it depends on what she means I mean like for how long like.
[50:14] Keith: Um, yeah, and it sounds like they're having sex something like once a week because they're away from each other during the week so that doesn't seem like an on unreasonable ask.
[50:23] Mike: Yeah, so he's he almost certainly has another partner. It's the the thing thing she doesn't know it. Yeah.
[50:35] Keith: Um, yeah I don't is it unreasonable. Okay, let's let's start with a more classic one is it unreasonable for a man to want his partner to blow him in every um, sexual.
[50:50] Mike: I think it depends on what you mean that it's it's the same I would have the same reaction both directions like you mean, blow him to completion. Do you mean? blow him for 5 minutes for 2 minutes I mean let's let's say let's say we said it was 2 minutes no I don't think that's a reasonable I think that's a reasonable expectation.
[50:51] Keith: Um, situation.
[51:04] Keith: Yeah, and 2 minutes 2 minutes might take care of her need here like I think she feels unattractive when he won't do it and that's why it's staying in her head and she's feeling quote unquote shitty for the whole week. So 2 minutes might be enough. She just wants to know that he. Ah, isn't grossed out by her or something.
[51:24] Mike: You know I mean I I wonder if there's like some grooming like hair related thing going on here. Yeah yeah, so it's a a little difficult to know, but the the I don't think it's but but but if if the.
[51:29] Keith: I considered that as well Apropos to our conversation last week. Yeah.
[51:44] Mike: Requirement is that he give her oral to completion every time will I mean it to then we have to get into. We have to get into like well how long does it typically take what's the standard deviation I mean the standard deviation is important here because if it's if it's a mean of I don't know 10 minutes but the standard deviation is 20 minute you know something like.
[51:51] Keith: Right? right.
[52:03] Mike: You know, like well it's not um, it's not going to be a normal curve of course because it can't be less than 0 time. But so standardity deviation doesn't apply but like whatever statistical concept you want to use. It could be a very long time is the point there might be sometimes where it takes 45 minutes there might be times where it doesn't she doesn't.
[52:09] Keith: Um.
[52:20] Mike: Finish and now what like does does he feel bad does What's the cultural expectation there.
[52:21] Keith: Right? I it it may sound like you're arguing by extremes here but I have had this exact situation I was dating somebody who when I went down on her would like me to do so for like 45 to 60 minutes and eventually.
[52:38] Mike: Um.
[52:39] Keith: I Started adopting the posture of well just not even going to start with that because you know at some point it's like a medical issue like you're not supposed to have your neck in that position for more than.
[52:47] Mike: What would happen after 45 minutes which you just have like a massive orgasm.
[52:54] Keith: Um, she was claiming. She was having multiple orgasms. Maybe she was just trolling me man.
[52:58] Mike: Well no, it's I mean you were giving her clitoral stimulance. Okay, so so her experience was she just had these rolling constant orgasms.
[53:06] Keith: The yes that's right.
[53:11] Mike: What what happened sure what happened during the minute or 2 minutes after 1 of these orgasms was she too sensitive to touch and you have to sit there and sort of wait or okay.
[53:13] Keith: Go go ahead. Yeah, you had to ask me whatever you like.
[53:22] Keith: Ah, yeah I don't remember I don't remember I think I think yes like I kind of remember I remember because after the first couple incidents. I started being like I'm actually going to time this and so I would like you know, look at my um phone and like note the time and I do remember her like she would like get up and go make tea and at one point. Ah yeah, like the kettle was like.
[53:39] Mike: Um, okay.
[53:45] Mike: Yeah, yeah.
[53:53] Mike: Um, during the oral.
[53:55] Keith: Going and she like didn't want to get it because she was pleased with you know what I was giving to her at that time. Um, but then but then she did go get the T and then I was like oh okay, good I'm like finally done with this but then she came back and like asked me to go down on her again.
[54:01] Mike: Um, okay, and that.
[54:11] Mike: Did she was this did have like some sort of special chair. She was sitting in or would she lie back down because to drink tea I mean drinking tea while you're lying down doesn't work. So great. Ok, which was supine.
[54:17] Keith: She wasn't true. She was the drink ig while I was going down on her I think she had like a couple sips and then reassumed the position but this was at least five years ago so I don't remember.
[54:30] Mike: Okay, um, so she would she you would be just sort of lying and you were lying on your stomach on a bed she would leave go sometimes and were you allowed to leave or did you just have to lie there. Yeah could you take a break or.
[54:36] Keith: Movement. You mean when she went to get the tea I mean what do you mean by take a break like did I have to like stay in that position should she say like don't don't move stay where you are I don't I think I think I was allowed to.
[54:49] Mike: You Well a case? Yes, that's my question. Yeah, that's my question is you're lying there.
[55:00] Keith: To rest. You know how like after you've done a bunch of situps you sometimes like we go into child's pose or something to to stretch a bit I imagine something like that. Yeah like I would I would counterweit I would do something where I could.
[55:07] Mike: You do that? Yeah I was reminded I'm reminded of like the the.
[55:17] Keith: Have my neck move in the other direction.
[55:18] Mike: Okay, and this happened a lot of times.
[55:22] Keith: I think I probably had 7 to 10 sexual encounters with this person.
[55:31] Mike: And it and it would go on like 45 minutes
[55:35] Keith: Ah, plus on the when people say 45 to 60 minutes like when the normal person says that especially when they're talking about sex. They're exaggerating I am not I I was so.
[55:42] Mike: Oh.
[55:49] Keith: Taken aback by like the first couple times that then I started deciding that I really wanted to time it and I'm very good with time management and time estimation and so yeah, it was it was 45 plus
[55:54] Mike: Sure you don't remember any details about like how convincing her orgasms were.
[56:04] Keith: I don't Ah I we hadn't started you and I had not started doing this or if we had we was still early days and so I don't I Just don't I could we I couldn't have because we would have talked about this extensively I'm sure so it must have been before we started doing this.
[56:09] Mike: Yeah.
[56:21] Mike: I mean I would say that like it's it's not impossible I mean you were doing the set of things that would give someone an orgasm. She's taking a break between them like it's you know it's It's sort of a it's it's plausible I was thinking about this the other day and I was because it's like the the normal argument.
[56:22] Keith: Um, but I I don't remember.
[56:30] Keith: Um, yeah.
[56:39] Mike: 1 of the normal arguments I make is that there's not like the female orgasm doesn't really isn't necessary for um, making a baby and so then it's like generally you'd say hey it should just basically the female orgasm should. Just follow what the male orgasm is in other words, it's just sort of a vestigial reaction that women have just like how men have nipples. However, then I was thinking to myself I wonder if female multiple orgasm could be adaptive for the case where like a woman is. Secretly having sex with a bunch of different guys or something. So basically she needs to make it look to each guy like she's really into it and so then it's like well so there could be some adaptive benefit to to that now. That being said like you would you would then expect it to be that she would.
[57:22] Keith: Um, how.
[57:29] Mike: Be easier for a woman to multiple orgasm if you switched guys which I I wouldn't think that would be the case. Yeah.
[57:31] Keith: And that doesn't appear to be the case Also is it adaptive to be sleeping with different men in the rare case where one of them is not fertile. Maybe but I would I would assume that like on average during evolutionary times.
[57:39] Mike: Well.
[57:50] Keith: Where generations were short and evolutionary pressure was greater than it is now that on average people were having sex in their teens and twenty s and so they were probably quite fertile and so at most 2 partners would be adapted.
[58:05] Mike: I Mean yeah there was this. There's There's this idea there's this idea of like sort of having a guy who's a good provider and then cucking and when you're most fertile. So when you're ovulating then you go and fuck a bunch of like hyper virile guys. But the idea that she would get a succession of them quickly enough that multiple orgasms would be relevant.
[58:08] Keith: But probably one would be most at inevitable.
[58:16] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah.
[58:25] Mike: I'm sorry this is starting to debunk my own little idea there. Um, but it's plausible like I would this the thing I would say is a woman I Want to say this a woman having multiple orgasms in succession with a reasonable time break between them from oral sex is I actually think plausible.
[58:27] Keith: Ah, okay, well, but you know we're just ah, we're brainstorming.
[58:43] Mike: Like I think it could be that she was just having like the thing that I find that I find much less plausible is like the multiple p I v no break between them. It's just rolling It doesn't ever stop like that I find much less plausible because it's just not analogous to the male experience at all whereas.
[59:01] Keith: Um, grant.
[59:01] Mike: This one you know I mean yeah I mean look a guy could in principle do that too bending on out how like if if you pumped me full of a lot of testosterone like I could do that 45 minutes maybe not but like I could probably have like 3 or 4 Um, certainly as like an 18 year old you could so it would be kind of achy at the end but it would be possible.
[59:11] Keith: Sure right? right? right? right? Yeah, okay so before we wrap up here I Think yeah if you're having sex once a week and you're reasonably young I think it is reasonable. Expect your partner.
[59:21] Mike: So yeah.
[59:30] Keith: To go down and to be at least be willing to go down on you every sexual encounter. No but I mean that kind of stuff goes without saying with any of this stuff.
[59:34] Mike: Um, assuming assuming did you say assuming reasonable grooming.
[59:40] Mike: Um, and not necessarily people get confused I mean like it matters like he because it could be. He's just like look this is I don't want to do it right now kind of deal. Um.
[59:48] Keith: Right? Yeah, she could test whether the recentness of her most recent shower or shaving or trimming matters and to your point it probably does.
[01:00:05] Mike: Yeah, it might it might well matter. Um and the amount of time that expected time. Yeah.
[01:00:12] Keith: Yeah, ah yeah, she can't hope for a 2 hour odyssey every time all right.
[01:00:15] Mike: And also and also how effective it is like it. Yeah I mean you know because the thing is to some extent. The guy might be like look this doesn't doesn't work all the time. So like yeah I mean it's not.. It's not clear like I mean I know we're running out of time here. But I mean like. If. Ah, if you um, it matters What you your goal is like do you care about getting ah you don't like the lows but like I don't know like it. It matters differently if it's moving Toward Orgasm versus if it's not if it's just like.
[01:00:49] Keith: I Think it does for men I So I speculated when we first brought this topic up that she might just want the symbol of him being willing that might be important to her like the reason why she's feeling bad is probably not because she has blue balls for a week. It's because.
[01:00:51] Mike: This thing that you want them to do for some reason.
[01:01:00] Mike: Um, right.
[01:01:08] Keith: Um, she I think it can't I think it can but um, yeah, anyway, all right? That'll do it for this episode of your mileage may vary.
[01:01:08] Mike: And I think the same thing could be true for a man like you know you're going to orgasm in PIV but you yeah.
[01:01:20] Mike: Yeah.
[01:01:23] Keith: You can send us feedback or questions to ymmvpod at Gmail.com that's ymmvpod at Gmail.com for your mileage may vary. We pay $10 for any and all feedback received so get to it and if you want to ask us a question. Let us know whether you want us to talk about it on the show or not. Thanks for listening and we'll catch you next week on your mileage may vary.