YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary Podcast

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Episode 154: Dating App Honesty, Beauty and IQ, Straight Men and Gay Porn, Social Taboos

Team YMMV | 2-2-2024 | 1:02:28

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Like Icarus flying too close to the sun, we decided to tackle a series of topics this week that could get us banned from the Internet or worse. In general, we are very timid men, unwilling to challenge social norms, but this week was different. I blame climate change.

This may surprise you, but it sounds like men sometimes lie on dating applications in order to increase their odds of sleeping with new, attractive women. Sometimes this might even make sense, since women might apply too strict of a filter on their searches. Maybe dating apps should just make it easier for men to bust through such problems? Maybe using money?

You've undoubtedly heard the apocryphal story about the teenage boy who broke both his arms and, needing release, was assisted by a member of his family. In all seriousness, what do people do when they're in the hospital and need some sexual alone time? Is this an area where we can all agree that paid handjobs by a provider should be legal?

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/154/gay

https://ymmv.me/154/study

https://ymmv.me/154/hospital

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is often controversial but mostly in good faith on today's show we are going to discuss the possible benefits of lying on dating apps whether gay porn watching is a sign that you might be gay and whether it's feasible.
[00:17] Mike: Yes.
[00:20] Keith: To self-instruct yourself how to be better in bed I'm Keith my cohost is Mike and Mike I want to discuss lying on dating app profiles a friend of mine sents me a message this morning actually ah me see if I can find it here.
[00:29] Mike: All right.
[00:39] Keith: Without outing her. Um, and yeah, um, it says. Ah it was a screenshot from hinge. Are you familiar with hinge.
[00:44] Mike: Um, oh it's a female friend all right.
[00:52] Mike: Yeah I mean it's just one. It's just one of them right? I mean it's bumble is the one where the woman has to make the first move. What's the what's the secret sauce behind hinge.
[01:00] Keith: Did I talk about the $1200 that bumble owes me. Okay, we got to talk about this first. There was a class action lawsuit in California about the yeah, the thing where like men can't contact women and women can contact men and somebody sued bumble I think and.
[01:05] Mike: No, it's a lot.
[01:18] Mike: Um, okay.
[01:19] Keith: On the grounds of that big sexist and I signed up to be part of the class action suit and because I was a member like the whole time and they were refunding like your membership fee times x ah I got a $1200 check in this element.
[01:23] Mike: Um, okay.
[01:34] Mike: They did have they had to stop doing that as a business practice then well you should know I mean. Okay.
[01:40] Keith: Um, I am not sure I don't have as much success on Bumble as I have on the others I do think there is some functionality now where you can leave like an opener that.
[01:57] Keith: Either party can respond to I don't know how it works I'm not sure.
[02:00] Mike: It also makes me wonder if the lawsuit was male, female parody or something about like a Trans man Trans woman deal but ok, got it. Ok well sure.
[02:07] Keith: I'm not sure and they may have just changed their terms of services to button down. Whatever the thing was I just know that I got that I got that money. Ah yeah, all right? So a hinge is.
[02:17] Mike: Nothing wrong with that.
[02:22] Keith: I Think hinge is considered the class classiest of the tinder but ah bumble hinge triumberrate. No I don't think so.
[02:26] Mike: Does it cost money for a kind of regular user. Okay, so they're all free, but this one's classiest for some reason.
[02:34] Keith: Yeah, it has yeah the profiles are the most involved you can only swipe yes on 10 people a day so you don't get this sort of like mindless swiping thing where.
[02:46] Mike: Do you have is there some sort of premium plan where you can get on hinge like you can on the other platforms a list of everybody who's swiped right on you so you can be more efficient. Okay.
[02:54] Keith: Yes, you can, but as with the others that's not nearly as interesting as it may think because they're not going to show you to anybody if you don't swipe on people So ah and for men who always swipe on plenty of people.
[03:07] Mike: Um, sure.
[03:13] Keith: You're going to find out anyone who's liked you anyway. So finding out immediately or finding out after you do a few swipes.
[03:18] Mike: But you're limited to 10 if you're limited to 10 a day then there that that you might feel like that was why I asked the question actually you might feel like.
[03:24] Keith: Yeah, Mike no man, no man has 10 outstanding and bomp likes at any given time.
[03:31] Mike: Oh you're saying that they will show you the people who've swiped right on you kind of early in the in the in the sequence. So that way you don't really have to worry. Okay, fine that makes sense.
[03:37] Keith: Yes, yes, and it is not the case. There are some men that have like a bunch of inbound likes and.
[03:46] Mike: Are you are you hang on is is embedded in what you're saying an argument that people should not be paying for these things because my general impression from your take was that the active dating man should be paying for the premium on these services have you sort of shifted stances on that.
[04:02] Keith: Um, that's a good question I am unsure I think there is no disadvantage to paying and so I think the and you know sufficiently affluent man should definitely pay and.
[04:10] Mike: Okay.
[04:19] Keith: In my particular case I pay for all 3 You can also pay to like boost yourself so you can get around the problem of not swiping but I think boosting might lower your Elo rating. You know the internal score that.
[04:22] Mike: Okay.
[04:29] Mike: Um, okay.
[04:38] Keith: The the apps have on how attractive you are and so you probably want to be careful there but there's a lot of moving variables and and of course the formulas that these apps themselves are using are constantly changing so you know.
[04:39] Mike: Yes.
[04:48] Mike: Right? In fact, they probably need to constantly change because it's a dynamic system right? So they need to adjust because men and women are going to game them and and and frankly just to keep it interesting I think that's a lot of why Facebook and Instagram and all these people change their algorithms just because otherwise you get bored. Okay, so this.
[05:03] Keith: I So I presume they hook it up to a machine learning algorithm to maximize engagement and they don't even know what it does.
[05:07] Mike: Yeah God Yes, yes well and probably fair point. There's probably some randomness just like with any machine learning algorithm has has randomness in it partly just to make it more engaging and interesting ah things that are trying to act human.
[05:23] Keith: There was a ah there was a post on Hacker news about why chat Gbt is nondeterministic and it linked to a academic paper it was It was sort of interesting I'll I'll send it to you later.
[05:25] Mike: Obviously some yeah.
[05:31] Mike: Ah.
[05:36] Mike: My recollection is that has to do with that that you get you get what? what are considered more boring and I mean obviously there's certain machine learning systems where you don't want randomness. An example would be a self-driving car I mean you don't you don't need that to be more exciting. Ah you wanted to do the right thing but but for for something like word choices.
[05:53] Keith: My recollection from this article and I don't remember for sure so I may be wrong, but my recollection is that they did not intentionally code it to be random. It turned out to be random and there was some debate as to why for a while but they they now understand why.
[05:54] Mike: And generated text you know.
[06:02] Mike: Okay, okay, so it's it's Pseudo random or something it anyway. Yeah, Okay, okay.
[06:12] Keith: I'll send it to you and then you can put it in the show notes for the 1 but more likely 0 listeners who are interested in that um all right hinge. Ah, hinge definitely has it. It has a very obvious how attractive are you score I just almost always get served women.
[06:20] Mike: That's right.
[06:31] Mike: Um, time.
[06:32] Keith: That are ah around the same attractiveness. Um I think Kingge thinks I'm like an 8
[06:34] Mike: What do you What level? do you think you're getting so you so you think there are 2 levels at least I don't know if there's a nine point nine or a 10 point but but to at least say one one to 2 levels above you. There's some dude out there. It's getting served some really a lot better sauce than you're getting.
[06:52] Keith: Maybe I'm not sure it might be that like 8 is as high as you can get for a man.
[06:59] Mike: Is there is there? No place where people sort of share this kind of stuff like a place where people post. Ah maybe with the information redacted but just the pictures they're getting be interesting actually right? because you could you could have the guy's picture and like the next 20 swipes he gets and he could hide. You could just put his hand over the names.
[07:10] Keith: Um.
[07:13] Keith: Right? I don't think most people are nearly sophisticated enough to even consider that being interesting.
[07:16] Mike: Just so you can get an idea of like oh this is what this guy gets this is what this guy gets anyway, they don't care. Yeah, and the guy who's at that 9 or 10 level. He'd just be like yeah I could do that or I could just have another person sucking my cock and it would take around the same amount of time. So yeah.
[07:33] Keith: Right? Yeah, um I bring up the internal attractiveness score because ah this woman sent me this profile and it's just a screenshot from it. But the screenshot says it's a 40 year old man who is five eleven and straight.
[07:35] Mike: Ah, got it.
[07:49] Mike: This time.
[07:49] Keith: And the hinge has these conversation prompts or prompts that you can respond to on your profile and the one he had is my simple pleasures and he says fitness fresh air sunshine and cooking I'm 50 not 40 but hinge won't let me correct my age. Yes, my picks are current and.
[08:08] Mike: Um, yeah.
[08:09] Keith: She sent this to me and it it took me a second to think about like yeah, like what? why did she send that to me. But of course it's that he's lying about his age and that that irritates her um which.
[08:19] Mike: Right? It's it's the I think Ockham's razor there is that is not that they won't let him change it I bet if he emailed support. They would let him change it even if it's not directly ok well he'd have to he'd have to create a new account. But yeah, but but let's let's.
[08:25] Keith: No I don't think no no I I don't think that's true. He's not lying. He could create a new account easily now he's lying on purpose. There is no ockham's razr he is lying on purpose like there is a 100% chance he did this on purpose.
[08:37] Mike: Yes, ockham's razor is that he wanted his age to be lower. Okay, fine, fine, fine right? and he figures that right? Well, the obvious reason is show up in more people's filters.
[08:43] Keith: Now the question is why.
[08:49] Keith: Exactly so he has a 0% chance of matching with women who filter out 50 year olds if he says he's 50 and he has a much better chance if he says he's 40 now a lot of those women will be irritated. Um.
[08:56] Mike: Right. Correct. Yes, Well he says it in his profile but go on. Yeah.
[09:06] Keith: When he shows up and he's 50 Um yes, so he is getting around he thinks he's absolving himself or at least assuaging himself, not assuaging allaying. He's removing some of that irritation by saying in his profile that he's actually 50 But.
[09:19] Mike: Yes, okay.
[09:25] Keith: Yeah, but I mean men have this problem like many men. Ah I've heard most men lie about their height on dating profiles as well. Um, yes and I've always thought that's sort of a bad strategy because you show up and.
[09:36] Mike: Um, I assume they make themselves taller right.
[09:43] Keith: They could see how tall you are mm.
[09:44] Mike: It would been how much I mean if it was one inch then that's arguable. You say oh well you know I'd squats today and it's lower. But I assume you mean like 4 or five inches kind of where be tricky.
[09:55] Keith: I mean I don't know what the average is um I mean I am six feet tall and so I say I'm six feet tall and I don't have to lie I've wondered if I should say I'm 6 1 or 8 because that might.
[10:02] Mike: Sure.
[10:07] Keith: You know one up me in the eyes of some women and they may be pricing in that most men lie about their height anyway. So like six feet tall might be actually a sort of bad thing to to be at because many men may say that and not actually be that.
[10:13] Mike: Could be.
[10:20] Mike: I think that's a good take actually that that put right that they basically the women are going to mentally assume you're lying by a little amount and so you could put and the thing is if you went to 6 1 or six two I think that's arguable. You could say oh well with shoes like what that's you know that's not.
[10:31] Keith: I could spike my hair up. Yeah.
[10:36] Mike: Well, it's not but I mean I think I think 1 or two inches is 1 thing if you say six inches that's not colorable like then it's they're going to see you and go well this is wrong? Yeah I think I I would say this I think I'm 5 like 10 and or 11 around there and I think that it's if I were on a dating app I might put six feet
[10:41] Keith: Yeah, of course of course, right? Yeah, um.
[10:49] Keith: Are.
[10:55] Mike: Because just because I've of like there's some sort of filter thing right? and I could yeah if I if I'm wearing normal shoes I'm six feet tall ah but but actually I'm like an inch shorter right.
[11:04] Keith: I think I would too if I were five ten I think I would say I was six feet tall and then the women also list their height and if it was a woman that listed herself as five Eleven I would just not match because she's probably going to be particularly annoyed that I show up and I'm shorter. Um, but.
[11:09] Mike: Um, right.
[11:18] Mike: Um, yeah, yeah.
[11:22] Keith: Most women are going to be 5 3 or 5 4 Whatever and they're not going to care or maybe even know and so there is some benefit to lying there so that that's the first lie that I think I might actually recommend that people do is add an inch and a half
[11:26] Mike: Um, yeah.
[11:37] Mike: Yeah, especially I I think the going I think for me going to six feet is actually quite smart because I strongly suspect there are filters there. Um, there's well, there's the whole. There's the whole 6 figures six feet and six inch cock thing.
[11:43] Keith: Me too. Yeah, six inches yeah
[11:52] Mike: And so yeah, like that that one you you you know the end. Yeah, it's at some point it's an immaterial difference that what they're trying to do is filter out the five foot five guy yeah
[11:54] Keith: Um, right right? All right? Let's say you're a 50 year old man and you enjoy dating 27 year olds. Ah, you basically have no choice but to lie because.
[12:12] Keith: Twenty seven year olds that like older men are probably are probably thinking like early 40 s or something not early 50 s and so the the pool of people that you could even potentially match with is probably a half a quarter less than.
[12:21] Mike: Yeah.
[12:31] Keith: If you lie.
[12:32] Mike: Yeah I mean I think that I it's it's an interesting thing because I have to think that what's really going on for a lot of women in that situation is they really want to look at the guy's pictures because different ages matter like there's some 50 year old guys that look like they're on the brink of dying.
[12:47] Keith: Um, yes, yeah you for example, look like you. You're much much much younger than you are.
[12:51] Mike: And there's some 50 year old guys who look like they're 30 and that matters a lot. Um, and so right and so so they yeah so he's just trying to get through that filter and ah yeah, it's sort of tricky. Um I mean. Yeah, I'm not sure what he should do. She was annoyed. Your friend was annoyed and felt like he was ah a liar. Yeah, um.
[13:12] Keith: I think I think she's right to be annoyed like yeah, she's ah she's a you know, very attractive woman herself and she doesn't want to waste her time on on bullshit like this. But I think that's just unfortunately part of online dating culture.
[13:27] Mike: Um, because she's looking for a she's looking for a long term relationship because what.
[13:31] Keith: I'm not sure but she would probably rather not have her profile not have her potential matches belittered with people who are egregiously lying.
[13:38] Mike: Yeah, it's really see the thing about this is the high order for me the high order bit for a woman I'm going to stay away from the thing that I know will trigger you but I'm going to say the the high order bit for woman for women is something about okay, the guy should look reasonable. So there's a high order bit there. Let's say they're 2
[13:52] Keith: Are.
[13:56] Mike: Can't have 2 other bits I know but there are 2 things that combine ah looking reasonable like good shape. Whatever weightlifting, whatever running second thing is ah money or career or something and I don't like there's some age where it would tilt tip over but I don't I think that. It should be flexible for most women and so I'm not even sure I'm not sure it's complicated I think I think that I think that women would be better served dev an app that somehow sorts differently than that I yeah with age ranges or something like having getting for a woman getting hung up on the specific age if she's already going up and to the 40 s. She's probably not planning to start a family with the guy you know so it's like okay you know what are you doing here. You're you're basically looking for somebody that's and so what do you really care about. Do you care about exactly his numerical age.
[14:40] Keith: Yeah, yeah, but I mean the problem is most it is true that probably like you know, let's say you like older men probably like 15% of men who are 50 would be compelling.
[14:58] Mike: Are right.
[14:59] Keith: 17% of 49 year olds 19% you know and as as you go down an age the the more the the pool of potentially compelling men ah increases. But when people do this, they're sort of you know wasting the the woman's time.
[15:10] Mike: Um, right.
[15:15] Mike: I agree but I mean I think she should be mad at the platform not at mad at the guy. The platform's doing a bad job of presenting her with the things she cares about and so he's having to work his way around it. Yeah, this drills.
[15:16] Keith: And.
[15:24] Keith: Well so here's the thing here's the thing Mike here's the thing this is the okay sorry I forgot to make my point I I forgot to make my point now. No, she's she's in her thirty s um.
[15:33] Mike: This girl is seventeen years old is that gonna be the thing. Ok ok.
[15:40] Keith: This girl was shown this man which means that his attractiveness score is at least you know within 2 points of hers. It doesn't necessarily mean that like I occasionally get um.
[15:42] Mike: Um, okay.
[15:50] Mike: Got it? okay.
[15:59] Keith: Sure I I was I was going to say ugly people but I was trying to be kind here.
[15:59] Mike: Outliers Oh way, How do I let's hear it. Yeah, that was what is the what is the typical hang on what is the typical ugliness you get is it is it somebody who's very overweight somebody who just has a really ugly face like.
[16:14] Keith: It's interesting I can just feel that like I don't know what I am let's say I'm an X I can just feel that they're X minus two and I always get word I'm like oh man like what? what's happened the thing that controls your attractiveness score is if you don't get liked by other attractive people for a while.
[16:15] Mike: What's how does that work.
[16:20] Mike: No God okay.
[16:30] Mike: Right? right? right.
[16:32] Keith: Or the people who who do like you are are unattractive. Um, you'll see people on Tinder talk about you should start a new account if you think your account has gotten somehow stuck in attractiveness Score Hell Um, just because it it.
[16:45] Mike: And it's also the reason why I agree strongly with your view that people should get professional photographs good like go everything you can do to get that score up matters a lot because because of this point that women for men at least I mean for women, it's true too. But for men because women.
[16:57] Keith: Um, yes.
[17:04] Mike: Swiping on these apps part of it's just going to be how they feel that day and so why would you like you want to have a um you want to be in the pool. That's the best you can like you want to? um, you want to increase your surface area to luck as much as you can just like if you're doing a startup or something so it's like how do I. Yeah, how do I do that and the best way to do. It is to get that elo score up as you've said and so you should get high quality photos like take some trips around the world. So you have photos in front of like this and that tourist thing like whatever just so you look optimal.
[17:25] Keith: Um, right.
[17:33] Keith: Yeah, yeah, there's ah, there's an app called photo feeler.com that you can upload your photos to and it'll tell you ah that you can a b test 2 different photos and it'll tell you which one's better and I strongly suggest if you want to get serious about this that you and and you don't have good intuition about.
[17:38] Mike: Yeah, yeah.
[17:49] Keith: What you look good and what you don't look good and you should do that hey wait hold on Mike let me finish my point. This woman was served this guy. So even though he is 50 and he's lying and saying he's 40 his attractiveness score for a 40 year old was such that ah the app felt that it was.
[17:50] Mike: But I think okay I mean we could like you go ahead? Yes, yes, yes yeah.
[18:07] Keith: Appropriate to serve him to her now. This could have been an outlier. We don't know maybe he has a new account and they're still you know, converging on the solution. But um I thought it was interesting that not only is this man lying about his age and in a way that I think maybe he should but he's also being shown to women.
[18:11] Mike: And.
[18:26] Keith: Who he would surely consider eligible bachelorettes. So whatever he's doing appears to be working.
[18:33] Mike: Yeah, yeah I think that I mean ah okay, you can set certain filters that's set the ground rules I know on Tinder you can do age Geo Geography I think is another filter but there's there's only a few hard and fast filters. These apps have.
[18:45] Keith: Um, some have more than others. But yeah.
[18:49] Mike: Strikes me that it strikes me that ah women in particular maybe should be encouraged to use if there was a way to basically give them access to Elo Score as a filter that might make more sense than I mean age is fine but women.
[19:05] Keith: Now you can't do that It doesn't the economy doesn't work because everyone would just immediately exclude the bottom Ninetieth the Bottom Ninetieth percentile.
[19:06] Mike: You might I could imagine messaging to women like look you should broaden your age and why.
[19:20] Mike: I Don't know if women would because that's like saying that's like how I have to assume that on the hard and fast age rules men like if you're a woman over a certain age I bet you don't not many men even see you because men do that with the age thing. Um, but.
[19:30] Keith: My recollection is that the data we've seen on this is that women are even more selective. Yeah men are less selective because they're just sex seeking right? They'll fuck anything.
[19:38] Mike: Is that right? I forgot.
[19:44] Mike: Okay, okay, that probably makes sense. Okay, yes I mean there's.
[19:46] Keith: And and they just and and then the whole thing that these apps are doing is like some shenanigans around attractiveness score and trying to keep it interesting for everybody.
[19:56] Mike: I honestly think I mean it's really hard for me. Not to think in this situation that the app should just shouldn't offer a paid plan for this Basically you say to like the guy that's above the age range like look you can pay us this amount of money to get your age down and then tell the women he did that like who cares. You know? So then you can tell the truth but you say look you know? Yeah, you're 50 fine. We'll treat you like a 40 year old if you give us twenty bucks a month and then we'll tell the women you did that and that's why they're seeing you and just be like look. We've found that guys who are willing to pay this amount of money women tend to you know it doesn't hurt them to see their profiles or something.
[20:28] Keith: I need to I need to think about this more I don't know I wonder if age function ah factors into their attractiveness score function and then like your attractiveness score.
[20:29] Mike: I Feel like there's a way for them to solve this.
[20:42] Mike: I Don't know.
[20:45] Keith: Probably varies by other age. So like if the if if you're say forty years old and your age range is 35 to 45 there's probably not much variance in your attractiveness score inside that you know sort of 5 year buffer. But if you. Want to be shown to twenty five year olds a lot of twenty five year olds are going to view you as substantially less attractive and so yeah, fair point fair point. So maybe less. Maybe.
[21:08] Mike: Right? Although they'd have to be the ones that filtered and filtered you in right? So they'd be the 25 year olds who are willing to look at that profile. Yeah.
[21:20] Keith: The average 25 year old would find you substantially less attractive but the average but the 25 year old who includes you in her search parameters on average find you more attractive but probably still less attractive than the 37 year old might find you anyway. The whole thing is complicated I need to think about this some more to.
[21:27] Mike: Yeah, yeah I don't hate. Yeah yeah, dont I don't want to told we should probably move on that I want to totally belabor it but it it just seems to me like this is a situation where the ages should be a little more flexible like. I have ah I have a cut off at 40 But if there's a 42 year old guy who's really high E low I should want to see him so there's like something there they could do to avoid this guy having to lie. Ah, the downside is how yeah go ahead.
[21:51] Keith: Um, yeah, but yeah, but yeah I don't think there is yeah but everybody is the whole premise of all of this is a lie you pick pictures that make you look your absolute best. You say things that make you seem like a fucking Saint. You lie about your height you flex things that you're good at and not the things that you suck at like the whole thing is the ah.
[22:08] Mike: Um, now.
[22:15] Mike: This is why I think I really think that I mean so this reminds me of and in the um like twenty years ago you had search engines and then you had ah a search engine that came out that was on the internet. There was ah all they had was ads. There was no regular search results. They just had ads. And their argument was that hey look actually our quality of search results is better because they're all paid for and that to me is kind of what seeking arrangement is. It's a thing where you're just having all ads and there's some mixture here that I think is probably optimal which is what Google found for search engines right? You you kind of mix them in and most people don't care and so it's like look.
[22:37] Keith: Yes.
[22:53] Mike: If there was just a way for guy for certain guys to buy themselves up and you can even tell the women that's what's happening because the thing is the women don't care like if like you could even run an auction like like the search engines do and say like look this guy this guy bid up. He's he's paying a lot to be your number 1 result like take a look at him. Um, yeah I don't know.
[23:10] Keith: I think they should care. Yeah I could we've already like you said we don't want to belabor this I think women should care about age a lot more than they do.
[23:13] Mike: Because because that's really the solution to this. Yeah, not maybe but but the but but the yeah I don't know maybe I think.
[23:24] Keith: I Think it's true that they don't I think they should I think it's I think it's a disaster to date somebody who's much much much older in terms of like into but for family planning for other stuff. Whatever.
[23:34] Mike: That's probably true. Well I think women do think about that but they but they there's also the okay, that's that's a you're gonna I just.
[23:39] Keith: Now they fall in love too fast and then it's too late. You see this constantly like there's a lot of younger men with older younger women with older men and if in a vacuum with another man who is around her age she she should clearly choose him. But. She didn't um, think it I know I know.
[23:58] Mike: I just was going to say that's the that sound you hear is the clattering of the the the silverware of the 7 feminist listeners. We have getting very angry with Keith for just assuming he knows what they feel but I hear you I just think I just think that like I also I think yes, that may be true but also women. Getting women clearer signals about um the how how well established the man is if you want to call it that matters and I think it's it's an optimal thing for an ad marketplace and I think it's sort of shocking that the only one really is seeking arrangement that that really just explicitly brings money into the equation. Although you have these premium plans.
[24:30] Keith: Yeah I need to think I I think I I need to think about this some more I think there may yeah.
[24:35] Mike: But yeah, yeah, and and by the way I mean like I saw. Ah maybe it was on Tiktok or something within the last two days there was a thing about the club like in New York or l a or something and talking about how you know clubs are a literal object obstacle course. Literal, whatever and a figurative obstacle course they have the rope outside that prevents people from getting in and they really it's to prevent men from getting in right kind of unqualified men and then when you get in there the argument and there was some debate about this but the argument is when you get in they play really loud music and it's sort of.
[25:01] Keith: Ah, yeah.
[25:10] Mike: The argument this person was making was yeah, that's on purpose because if you want to have a conversation you have to go to the Vip section which is always cleverly set up so that you can have a conversation in there. They like set up sound baffles and stuff so it works in there and the same thing we're getting a drink and whatnot and they're like look this is just a system for filtering the attractive women to the Vip section.
[25:18] Keith: Um, ah yeah.
[25:27] Mike: And excluding the guys who don't have any money and I think that there's there's truth to that. Um, and I think there's a lot of things like that in life and I think it's funny that these these these these dating apps haven't sort of found a way to do that because that's there's a lot of money there maybe.
[25:29] Keith: Ah.
[25:40] Keith: Well, they may have I don't know how their machine learning algorithms are tuned but I suspect they're tilted toward ah monetizing.
[25:48] Mike: Yeah but there should be a way for someone. Sure. But if but I could come in and you know so pay a thousand bucks a month on one of these things. No problem I should be able to do that and get like a really nice experience. Maybe I wouldn't match with anyone but I should be able to like have my elo basically be 10 and everybody know that it's 10 because I paid this amount of money. And they can draw their own conclusions or whatever something like that.
[26:09] Keith: You've heard my dream before which is to like somehow get access to tinder's algorithm and then just show myself to the top thousand most beautiful women in the world according to their attractiveness score and then one of them was like yes on me. Um. Or like just give me just give me a list of like the top of the top 100000 you know, give me the you know whatever I don't know how many would be hopefully a lot that had swiped yes on me and then I could just go down the list like ah a man would pay a lot for that.
[26:26] Mike: Um.
[26:43] Mike: Sir It's ah it's such a simple but it's an interesting dream I I think most men's dreams is something like I become invisible and I'm a hypnotist and I have access to all women's locker rooms.
[26:53] Keith: Right? Well the hypnotist thing is is is the key there right? You're like seducing whoever you like in this case Yeah, just getting like sent toward the most beautiful people and like yeah like most of them would reject me but some of them wouldn't and give it and shown to enough of them. Um.
[26:57] Mike: Yes, yes.
[27:10] Keith: But yeah, like Tinder could monetize that way and like just charge a million dollars for that service or something some some men would pay that.
[27:12] Mike: It's true.
[27:15] Mike: Yes, and somewhere in there. You'd have to reckon with the fact that the most beautiful women in the world are all all mentally retarded.
[27:24] Keith: I Don't I just want to register that I disagree with that statement and and end the phraseology of it.
[27:30] Mike: I I think a well mentallytor mentally retarded. It's there they they're they're uneducated because they never had to be educated. It's it's like that thing Ricky Gerva said at the golden globes where he pointed out that none of the celebrities in the room had gone to high school or whatever which is true. They're all morons.
[27:46] Keith: Yeah, but if if I got a list of the top 10000 then surely some of them some of them.
[27:47] Mike: They don't They don't know anything.
[27:56] Mike: I Hear you no, there's nothing wrong with ah being attracted to lovely ladies I mean that's why so many high placed men you look at who their wife or their girlfriend is and it's a supermodel. That's why they do that they look. They love that status and it must. It must make that nut better. They're like look at that face and they cover it with.
[28:12] Keith: Is there a really really really famous attractive woman who's who's famous for being brilliant like is there like a famous scientist or Ceo or politician.
[28:13] Mike: With Jez right.
[28:27] Mike: Yeah, they always pull out ah that they pull out the woman who paid played blossom on that Tv show but I went through her credentials. Yeah I went through her credentials. Yeah, her credentials aren't as good as you want them to be. They're okay, um.
[28:30] Keith: Oh there was on she that was on Jeopardy but she just got voted off at Jeopardy for being too dumb.
[28:45] Mike: Ah, yeah I mean I think there are a few but but look here's the problem. First of all, it's a rarity to be that smart. Secondly the The Bell Curve Of Iq is fatter for men. So when you get to the absolute outer reaches of intelligence. It's not. There're going to be fewer women and thirdly even if you were super smart.
[28:57] Keith: Um, yeah.
[29:04] Mike: I Think that the types of things that happen to super attractive women actually would suppress ah their their utilization of their intelligence because if you're super attractive as a woman you just have you're not you don't face any obstacles and no animal that faces no obstacles develops its skills I mean why? why would it? you know.
[29:19] Keith: Right? Yeah, it's not. It's not any fault of theirs. Um, but yeah, they may not be training their brains the way that um, ugly men do.
[29:24] Mike: Not really no, this is why when I encounter ah and a family with young children and one of them is a really really pretty girl I Always suggest scarification.
[29:36] Keith: Ah, okay, we've been ah with okay, that's been our misogyny hour. Um, let's move on to making fun of men. Okay, this person says ah my girlfriend is angry with me because I watched gay porn I a 24 year old man recently found out that my girlfriend a 22 year old woman watches porn.
[29:44] Mike: Yes.
[29:55] Keith: Um, my gosh his girlfriend watches porn What a monster. Yeah, you saw it in her search history and her laptop. We talked about it and agreed that it's not a big deal. Why did he bring it up. Whatever all right? her watching Porn doesn't really bother me. Yes, it clearly does all right anyway.
[29:59] Mike: It's kind of cool.
[30:08] Mike: Can you can you when we agree that on men's laptops. It's more like the search history is or not search histories I mean they mean like their url history. The places you've been visited on the internet search. History's a little weird because it's like who uses this search engine for porn. But anyway the url history of most men's laptops is like an ocean of porn with.
[30:20] Keith: Oh that's true. Yes, gosh I'd never thought about that. But yeah, like because when I'm when I'm doing the porn thing I probably visit you know 5 pages per minute or maybe it's not quite that many a lot.
[30:28] Mike: Occasional ah clicks to gmail. Yeah.
[30:40] Mike: Yes, you do an incognito though because you are worried about the Fbi knowing which porn you looked at I don't like to do I like the look let me tell you something pornhub has a pretty good algorithm. So if you let it learn who you are you don't have to make an account. They cookie you.
[30:45] Keith: Yeah, but I forget I Forget to do incognito sometimes in in my in my haste.
[30:55] Keith: I know I know but I don't want I don't really I Really don't want anyone to have that data. Although I don't have any weird proclivities. So maybe I shouldn't care.
[30:59] Mike: And they actually recommend good stuff. It's like oh yeah I do like that.
[31:08] Mike: I Don't care right? I don't think you should care it because yeah I Honestly if I Yeah yeah if I had to if right if somebody called me out for it and showed my profile. It would be like yeah, it's pretty normal like whatever.
[31:14] Keith: It's going to be like oh I Just like attractive people having sex like oh what? what? a weird kink.
[31:26] Mike: Ah, yeah I mean and I yeah I don't want child porn or whatever I don't want Anyway, let's let's continue.
[31:27] Keith: Right? right? All right? sorry all right? So one day while she was at work I decided to watch porn myself what what? a rebel I didn't think it was a big deal seeing is how she had done it a few days ago herself but when she came home and saw that I'd been watching gay porn. She was hurt and insulted well let me I'd like he doesn't mention that he's like oh I could just watch board because she does ah she was upset because she felt like it had validated our relationship I'm dating a woman. Not a man.
[31:45] Mike: Well, that was the first thing he jumped to all right.
[32:00] Keith: She felt like I was disrespecting. Her is obviously gay sex is different from straight sexstu comment. She told me that I should be with a man if that's what I want. The thing is chardi knew that I was by and that I liked men so I don't know why it's such a shock the guys in the porn. She watches look nothing like me. They're all bigger taller more well hung and mostly black I'm white.
[32:19] Mike: wait wait wait wait. wait that's what she wait wait wait wait wait sorry I I zoned out there for a second she likes the Bbc's or he does so she's watching Bbc porn.
[32:19] Keith: She being unreasonable or am I.
[32:25] Keith: Yes, no he she does So he's yes of yeah men that are bigger taller more well hung and mostly black and so he's he's saying that what she's watching is nothing like their sexual experience. So why can't he just.
[32:34] Mike: Yeah, Bbc right.
[32:43] Keith: Watch Gay horn.
[32:46] Mike: Yeah I mean he can what I mean. Ah yeah I mean it's a fair point I mean both of them are I have to say that the stuff that I watch Bears a resemblance to my normal life right? It's not. I Do not have anything that I would watch that like you'd say oh you know that this implies there's something different about you and so if somebody was doing that I think it's like at least a question that you would ask right.
[33:09] Keith: yeah yeah I mean so the first comment is I think the like maximally woke answer which is she can't date a buy guy and then be mad when he's by he was in the terms and services. Ok maybe here's. Some caveats that I think may be important contexts the first is this man is clearly a little bit uncomfortable about like sexuality and like sex in general like it was you know they have this whole brew haha when he finds out that she's watching porn and. He's decided that it's okay for him to watch porn because you know he found out that she was and then you know the first day he does he immediately goes to like whatever the thing that's like maximally distant from what his relationship sex life is I think you know generally.
[33:59] Mike: Is it maximally distant. Okay, let's we'll stipulate. It's maximally distant I think I could go further. But yeah I hear you? yeah.
[34:02] Keith: Ah, maybe and all right? Maybe I'm using some hyperbole here to illustrate a point I think that but bisexual men do exist but I bet it's I I think there are a lot of bisexual women I think most men are.
[34:13] Mike: Ah, now.
[34:21] Keith: Generally more gay or more straight and so this man might be 1 of the rare ones that are sort of right in the middle of the spectrum or maybe I'm wrong and it's normal to be right in the middle of that spectrum. But I suspect that ah it might be a bit of a canary here in the gay coal mine. That this man really is gay. He might be indulging this heterosexual relationship because he's 24 and not super comfortable admitting to himself. What's up yet and she might have some real reason for concern but we don't have enough details here. That's just something that. As a therapist I would try to like figure out in this situation like is she being sort of unreasonable or is he being ah, not introspective enough.
[35:00] Mike: Night after.
[35:11] Mike: Yeah I mean if he's ah I don't know if I agree with the woke comment either that it's in the terms and services or whatever I mean it's ah pretty aggressive for a guy. It's more aggressive for a guy to want to swing this direction than it is for a woman to be interested in it and that's just.
[35:26] Keith: Bisexuality you mean? yes.
[35:27] Mike: Reality Yes, and so it would be a valid I think it's a pretty valid concern. It would be a valid concern if the woman was going like hardcore Lesbian porn as well. So they're both valid but I don't I don't see anything wrong with her looking askance at his at his choices. I Personally I think I've found that my enjoyment of gay porn has declined over Time. It's I Just don't like it when there's 2 cocks. Just yeah I don't enjoy it. Yeah by the way the ah ah.
[35:55] Keith: I mean Ha ha.
[36:05] Mike: I noticed it I noticed today someone I saw ah x-rayd picture as I do and um I noticed that I yes 1 ah, it occurred to me that I think one of the reasons why pictures of women's ah picture of the women that are naked from the waist down. Catch my eye so much is that the first reaction my brain has is not oh this is sexual. But it's like the reaction I would have if I saw an amputee in the sense that but the first thing that catches my eye.
[36:34] Keith: They're missing something.
[36:37] Mike: Yes, is that they're missing something because 99.9 percent of the time or whatever 99% of the time that I see a naked human. It's myself. Ah, and so this is this is another problem with gay porn is that yeah you don't you don't have that thing that grabs your mind. It's sort of boring on some level. It's like look oh it's just me fucking me.
[36:42] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, it's remarkable.
[36:53] Keith: I think you? yeah I think you might be overthinking this Mike Gay porn is not compelling because it's 2 men and that's I mean I don't want I don't want to speak for you here. But also I'll speak for myself. That's not what I'm into and so.
[36:56] Mike: You know I am.
[37:03] Mike: Yeah,, there's not much to look At. I Don't think you watch a lot of gay porn though.
[37:14] Keith: Yeah I do not because I mean ok, it's possible that I would watch it and love it I doubt it ah and in fact I've seen some I've seen you know various memes and every once in a while I Mislick and thankfully I'm using incognito mode. So.
[37:20] Mike: Now.
[37:32] Keith: Ah, porn hub doesn't etch that into my history forever. Oh good. It can't miss click yeah, um, there was 1 other thing I wanted to explore here. So um, the the comments go on here.
[37:34] Mike: Well I think they have porn up gay. They've actually sort of done that for you So that there's it's separated out. It's it's separate but equal. Yeah yeah.
[37:48] Keith: And this person goes oh buddy, you'd be shocked how many women do that you tell them you're by and they're totally cool with it until the second they see you actually attracted to penises then they lose their shit and then another comment. Oh for real. It's nasty accept people for who they are trust your partner. Let people be happy and then this person this that person just saying you should.
[37:56] Mike: Right.
[38:04] Mike: Um, wait what.
[38:06] Mike: I got it. This is a lot of people agreeing on something that's not a commonly held belief go on.
[38:07] Keith: Be comfortable with bisexual sorry then this person says right? This person says this a lot of women are homophobic more so than men they're just quiet about it and then another one and then this will be the last one I'm going to read before I'm going to get to my point here. They're homophobic when the man they're dating is in.
[38:23] Mike: Um, yeah.
[38:26] Keith: Dating Slash interested in might like men. Also they'll be best friends with a gay guy like me super accepting and defend me to the end of time. But if they think their men is even hinted. He might be by. It's suddenly the most homophobic crap ever coming out of their mouths all right listen I disagree with this use of Homophobia of the of the word homophobia like not wanting your partner to.
[38:43] Mike: Yeah, okay.
[38:46] Keith: Pk His not homophobic. Um, it's it's adaptive.
[38:50] Mike: Well maybe what they're saying is that the sort of stuff Maybe the sort of stuff she would say is homophobic. In other words, maybe ah yeah, maybe when she finds out she wouldn't say oh gosh I'm not I don't want to be with a bisexual guy. She would start saying epithets for gay people.
[39:04] Keith: Is it is it not back think I can say I want its all myself is it not is it not okay to say that I don't want my girlfriend to be off.
[39:06] Mike: And just.
[39:11] Mike: Um, what? okay.
[39:22] Keith: Going down on other women.
[39:23] Mike: Yeah, well I just I was just reacting to the notion. The notion of ah homophobia that it could be embedded in the language that she uses not in the concept. She's expressing right? ok.
[39:32] Keith: Ok, can maybe maybe I can say my thing you know you know like you can't say the nword even self-re even when you're referencing not saying the n-word and so I'm no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[39:43] Mike: You actually can you actually can say the n-word I Everybody all white thing I'm not going to but I'm not going to but I'm going to say this white people listening or anybody listening. You actually can go to a place all by yourself and say the n-word and nothing happens. Yeah.
[39:49] Keith: Okay, good.
[39:57] Keith: I Don't think it's true I think like lightning comes down I actually well I haven't done it. But I I think like a like ah a shock would happen in my brain.
[40:03] Mike: Ah, okay I think nothing happens you have it wait. You've never gone to a place all by yourself and said the n-word.
[40:13] Keith: No, this is nor that's like ah Bill Clinton say a day didn't inhaleil or whatever.
[40:17] Mike: This is like the tree falling in the forest. That's really funny. Yeah, see this is the thing. So so no one will ever admit to doing that. Ah so we can't know whether it kills you or not yeah.
[40:26] Keith: Ok, well can I say can I say the thing that I think a woman might say if ah she was being homophobic I mean is it really that unreasonable for me, not want to think about my boyfriend fudge packing another man.
[40:32] Mike: Yeah, let's let's hear it. Yeah.
[40:42] Keith: Ok, no, the well and even if it were that I wasn't thinking it. That's something that someone might think.
[40:43] Mike: Um, that's not that homophobic is it.
[40:51] Mike: Honestly that I don't think that's that homophobic and I'll tell you why because you can do that to a woman too right? So it's like you could fudge back a woman right? All it means is to compact the the feces in the in the rectum or Colon area. Yeah, so I mean I don't.
[40:57] Keith: Fair point that that is the metaphor. Yes, Okay, so you you can test that that I feel like most people would say the word fudge Packer is homophobic.
[41:09] Mike: I Think they're I I can think of more Homop public stuff.
[41:15] Mike: It depends on the context I think but yeah, okay, yes, yes, yes, right.
[41:20] Keith: It's like ah okay, we maybe we should move on here. Ah oh it, go ahead.
[41:27] Mike: Well I Okay hang on hang on but to the point of the comments generally. Um I I agree with you that it's okay so you basically what you had here is a bunch of maybe gay maybe bisexual men jump in and start complaining about women's behavior around this. The reason why women have this behavior is that.
[41:44] Keith: Oh yeah I don't think it's yeah, well like I said like I think it is more of a red flag if a woman sees her man watching gay porn than if a man sees a woman watching Lesbian porn because.
[41:45] Mike: Bisexuality among men is kind of rare and so it's concerning because there. Yeah.
[41:54] Mike: Yes.
[42:01] Mike: Ah, massively more because a lot of women might watch that just because that's what they they want. They? Yeah, they just find women more beautiful or whatever but ah for a man. It's ah much more indicative of something that could be relationship ah create risk to the relationship which is what the woman's going to care about like she's not. Likely to care that much where he puts his penis except to the extent where it affects their relationship. Um, yeah.
[42:23] Keith: Yeah, and if he's constantly fantasizing about other men. That's a little bit more of a red flag than constantly fantasizing about other women.
[42:29] Mike: Look This is it's yeah, it's more than that because it's very threatening and the reason it's threatening is because there are gay bathhouses and there is grinder and so if a guy wants if I wanted to give or get a blowjob from or to another guy.
[42:45] Keith: I Know he could have one in less than an hour. Yeah.
[42:49] Mike: I'm I'm like a woman in that room. Absolutely I could I could get on grind I could I could start with just a phone that's been wiped clean in an urban area in the United States and install the app make my profile and I bet I could have sex with a guy within an hour right right?
[43:00] Keith: Yeah, yeah, we linked that that ah that thing last week or two weeks ago that yeah.
[43:07] Mike: So this so it's threatening. It's directly threatening because of the guys interested in this well now he has this bottomless well of sex he can dive into and how is she supposed to compete with that. Just like she wouldn't like it if he.
[43:11] Keith: So to speak? yeah.
[43:19] Mike: Ah, she found out he was cruising. Um, you know an escort website or something I mean some yeah if there if there was some way he could get women to have sex with him easily that would be very threatening to their relationship. So.
[43:20] Keith: Um, yeah.
[43:27] Keith: Yeah, okay I agree all right this person. Ah why did I think this oh I remember okay, this person is thanking the sex subreddit I'm a 33 year old male I started reading the subreddit when I was 18 when I was an 18 year old virgin. Just wanted to thank this community for all the knowledge and skill I have gained through the years anyway my wife has a really high body count like an absurd number. But that's never been something that's bothered me interesting use of the word absurd if it doesn't bother you but setting that aside in part thanks to the subreddit.
[43:53] Mike: Yes.
[43:58] Keith: She thinks I am hands down the best she has ever had male or female all forms manual oral PIVAnal kinks I think this man might be confused.
[44:08] Mike: That's I really like hang on I like the idea I know that. So importantly I know that this is this isn't true. But I love the idea of a woman having a ranking of guys of the anal sex guys have given her. She's like Keith.
[44:22] Keith: She she doesn't it that the whole thing is she doesn't She's told him she does because his ego can't handle it like he's He's upset about her number even though he claims. He's not and anyway, let's continue.
[44:24] Mike: Keith you are the best at giving but sex to me that I've ever had. Of course right? yes. Well in the and importantly, the best thing in that case might not even mean anything because as we've discussed before for men. There's like you asymptotically approach kind of best like there isn't like it's not that hard to be near the best as a man like you just have to do some amount of research happy put in some effort.
[44:53] Keith: Um, yeah, well and if you heard this concept of boyfriend Dick I got to look this up on urban dictionary to make sure that I have this right? But I think this is the right reference here.
[44:57] Mike: Etc Yeah, no.
[45:09] Mike: Um, is boyfriend dick better or something.
[45:10] Keith: Ah, okay here we go sorry I didn't even hear what you said because I was reading What did you say? did you make fun of my dick.
[45:14] Mike: Dead Eric Keith yeah
[45:21] Mike: Um, no I said boyfriend dick and then I said Dead air is you were sitting there doing nothing.
[45:24] Keith: Oh okay, sorry that was okay, boyfriend dick this the kind of dick you can write every night because it fits just right? ah another ah a penis that is of reasonable size that one could receive on a daily basis as opposed to vacation dick. So.
[45:32] Mike: And.
[45:39] Mike: Which is small or big or what's what's.
[45:43] Keith: I Think it's It's Ma it's modest. It's not. It's not um, it's not overwhelming. Ah.
[45:47] Mike: Oh Keith this is just this is just sad. You're just making yourself feel better your use of the word modest is so sad in that sentence you're like you're like you know it's around what I got.
[46:00] Keith: Um, ah I did not say that you're projecting. Um.
[46:06] Mike: Um, you use the word modest for your own penis as as sort of the typical modifier I just noticed it's you don't use the word modest that often. So ok.
[46:07] Keith: Yes, but but you took that to mean to mean small.
[46:18] Keith: Well, it's now a metaphor for the exact size of my penis but it's it's not I may or may not but ah, generally a ah modest it a modest boyfriend dick is yeah it's it's smaller.
[46:21] Mike: Okay, fine. So you have the perfect boy threatened penis.
[46:34] Mike: Got okay I did not think that's what boyfriend. Okay, fine fine I didn't think that's what it was Goingnna be actually I thought the boyfriend dick was going to be something like ah, it's not the sides or anything it's that she it's that because it's attached to her boyfriend. It feels better.
[46:36] Keith: Then Whatever an enormous thing is um.
[46:48] Keith: There's.
[46:53] Keith: There's other no no, there's other components to it and of and of the meme that weren't mentioned in that Urban dictionary thing at least to my understanding of the term which is something around. Yeah, it's not like a devil dick where like you just.
[46:54] Mike: That's what I thought it was going to be.
[47:08] Keith: Can't get a you know enough of this guy even though he's obviously terrible for you. It's like ah you know it's it's it's sort of good enough and you know something you could settle down with but.
[47:13] Mike: Okay.
[47:21] Mike: Okay, so that's that's not really a description of a penis though. The devil dick thing that's description of like a personality. It's going to be a guy who gives her drugs and and parties in rocks and rolls with her and she's having fun yelling woo from the back of a motorcycle and stuff like that.
[47:26] Keith: I guess.
[47:35] Keith: I Think it varies by the woman. That's what some women want other women want other thing for their sort of frivolous encounters.
[47:40] Mike: Okay I think that the kind of woman that's likely to call a guy a devil dick is going to be the woman on the back of the motorcycle yelling wo but ok I hear you.
[47:52] Keith: Sure all right? Let's get back to this guy. He goes on my body count is much lower bringing that up again. So she was always asking me how I got so good at what I do I explained I'm ah real I'm really a huge nerd and man of researching sex before he even had seen a vagina in real life.
[47:53] Mike: Yeah, yeah.
[48:09] Keith: She's blown away because apparently there are a good amount of men out there that are just all around bad at sex in her experience. The vast majority are terrible and is a big ego boost for me Lll Lo well thanks again. So he's read a lot of things. She's slept with a lot of men just once one night stands where the man didn't care.
[48:17] Mike: Um, yeah, that shouldn't be Yeah, that's not he's reading that wrong. That's because yeah.
[48:28] Keith: And yeah.
[48:28] Mike: Yes, yeah, she slept with a got a guy a lot of guys who are much more attractive than he is ah because that's often who the one night stands happen with. And yeah, they're not they don't yeah they this is the thing is it's not that hard to get good at sex as a guy these guys just it's exactly what you said they actually know what to do? They just don't care.
[48:45] Keith: Right? right? They'd be a more giving lover. Okay, yeah, and so this ah the reason why I wanted to read this thing in the first place is because yeah, how realistic is it.
[48:46] Mike: With her right if they if they if they liked the girl they would put in some effort but it just doesn't matter. Yeah.
[49:02] Keith: That one could spend a lot of time on sex reddits or watching instructional porn or reading you know the 4 hour body chapter on you know how to give a woman an orgasm and and this kind of stuff like how realistically can a man improve his technique just through research alone.
[49:13] Mike: Yeah.
[49:21] Mike: Oh well, you came into the right place Keith because um I did this ah prior to my first sexual encounters in high school I was a ah student of the science accessing. Ah.
[49:31] Keith: Over.
[49:36] Mike: A lot of I mean it was see this is the thing is I had mostly textual content not video porn it being in the dark ages of the internet. Yeah, ah but I remember very distinctly the first person that I let's see I guess I gave I I I fingered her I guess is the right term you would use.
[49:38] Keith: Yeah, this is a long time ago. Yeah.
[49:56] Mike: And she was very surprised at how my expert fingering and I had not let's see I mean I Yeah I mean I hadn't even seen her vagina yet it was it was I just reached my hand down there and and was able to manipulate to be able to find my way around and this was through pure.
[50:10] Keith: Um, yeah.
[50:13] Mike: Force of 3 d modeling in my brain combined with very detailed research while ah playing with my joystick on my computer. Yeah and I own I gay and I and I do believe she had an orgasm like that was plausible and I and I'm a tough judge on this this girl.
[50:17] Keith: How much.
[50:29] Keith: Yeah, but were you then.
[50:32] Mike: Did no but ah, no, but ah we did the deed enough times and her reaction was similar and I like so I have a I'm reasonably confident that that my manipulations were accurate. Ah.
[50:45] Keith: All right? we'll we'll leave it up to our listeners to decide in their minds. What the probability there is but.
[50:50] Mike: Yeah, her I mean her main her main I mean this was in high school. So it's not she couldn't She wasn't going to use big words but her main surprise was just that I was able to find and focus on her clit I think that was surprising to her because.
[51:01] Keith: Okay, yeah.
[51:06] Mike: Many guys in high school. Don't do that Although nowadays I think they would because there's so much data out there and men are and boys are very interested in getting this content in their brains. So I think them. Yeah, go ahead of course of course. Yeah I mean I think there we go.
[51:11] Keith: Yeah I imagine are there guides like how to have good sex. Okay, already know how so I don't really need to seek that out. Yeah, he says immodestly.
[51:25] Mike: I Think the truth is that these women who right these women who complain about oh my boyfriend or whoever does does this stuff wrong in most cases, It's the the guy doesn't care a thing. It's not that he doesn't know what to do guys guys like thinking about talking about reading about sex. Maybe a really below average intelligence guy would have.
[51:33] Keith: Yes.
[51:43] Keith: Yeah, men are and men are incentivized to be good and bad.
[51:45] Mike: But actually not be able to figure it out, but it's not that comp I mean it's it's not that complicated. Yeah, right? And so a guy is going to have some and it's and it's so easy to access the information now like you know, whatever in the 1980 s okay, maybe you had to like go get a book at a library or something go to the adult bookstore. Nowadays come on I mean it's on Wikipedia. So.
[52:05] Keith: My guess is that you can go from like a 0 to like a 4 ah but to go to to go up the next steps of being you know a great lover sex haver. You need to cut your teeth on experience.
[52:22] Mike: So let's let's let's dig into this when you say that there's an element of that I agree with but I want to exclude it. Let's talk sorry you just talk. Let's just talk physically in terms of the things you do with your body. Not how you treat the person interpersonally. Emotionally how you engage. Let's just talk about.
[52:23] Keith: With experience.
[52:29] Keith: Um, okay.
[52:40] Keith: Um, the mechanical. Yeah.
[52:41] Mike: How you're manipulating their body. Yeah I'm actually so I'd actually think you're wrong in terms of the mechanical manipulations I think that you can get to like a 9 just through research on the other side I agree with you on the emotional and everything. Yeah.
[52:49] Keith: Ah, research research and like 3 or 4 sexual encounters. Yeah, like like your your first time your first time you're probably going to be fumbling around a little bit because everything's so new and it like it takes a while it takes a while to connect the the academic learning with the.
[52:58] Mike: Ah, 3 or 4 encounters I don't know. Yeah, but you're gonna be so excited. Okay, okay.
[53:09] Keith: Ah, physical reality. But.
[53:13] Mike: Okay I thought you were going to argue from more than 3 or 4 3 or 4 Okay, fine. Yeah because you because yes, you have to oh I have to do this to do that. You have to sort of connect things together that that makes sense. Um, it would depend on how interested your partner is in sort of guiding you and answering you know how communicative and you are.
[53:19] Keith: Are.
[53:25] Keith: A good analogy here might be a good analogy here might be cooking a recipe. You can read about it and basically learn the basic steps and the first time you do it, you might make a couple mistakes but the next time you'll be almost mistake free and then all subsequent times. You're basically perfect. You can almost do it from memory.
[53:32] Mike: Are.
[53:42] Mike: Yeah I think that's right, but but I but I want to point I So I agree with you Then if you're if you're going at that single digit numbers then I then I I think we agree I do think however that the much more complicated and possibly more important manipulation or whatever you want to call. It is the emotional interpersonal.
[53:54] Keith: Yes, yes.
[54:01] Mike: So for example, something that we've we're discussing at some point I don't if it was on the podcast or before the podcast is this thing of oh I think it was before is this thing of a lot of women. Want the guy to take charge in a way that men may be reluctant to particularly in our culture and not all women want this etc. But.
[54:16] Keith: Um, yep.
[54:18] Mike: Guys might be reluctant. They're not sure exactly what to do and how to behave and what's okay and what's not okay. But yeah, if you don't do that right? If you don't do like the approach right and stuff like that. She's just going to be less into it. You're going to make it less fun for her. You know.
[54:29] Keith: Yeah I think some men are lucky and that they're like dispositionally ah inclined to do the right things from the start but a lot of men sort of need to learn it over time and when I said that you can sort of get to a 4 just from from book learning.
[54:36] Mike: Yes.
[54:43] Keith: That's what I was sort of thinking you can learn the mechanical techniques and and get to like some level of like basic competence but to get so that like you're the devil dick that women just like can't get out of their mind even though you're terrible for them. You got to have some techniques that can't be taught.
[54:44] Mike: Okay.
[55:02] Mike: Yeah I think ah they might be able to be taught. But unfortunately I think they are they are ah directionally in the red pill direction so women this is something that would upset women maybe or some set of women is that they are yeah they're and maybe not the nagging of red pilling. But but the thing of.
[55:03] Keith: Mail. Okay, yeah, that's.
[55:17] Mike: Yeah, there's some. There's some roles that most male female relationships and situations fall into and fitting into those roles is part of making it work and it's tricky. Yeah.
[55:24] Keith: Yeah, we we don't have time we don't Ah, we don't have time to have that discussion right now but some women want that maybe most in any case. Yeah, it can't there are guides on it but you sort of need to trial by fire.
[55:38] Mike: And it's going to be hard now that the having fun hobbying Subrightdit's been banned So can't do it there.
[55:39] Keith: I think yeah for the uninitiated listener that was the subreddit where people would talk about their exploits with prostitutes and I can't believe it took Reddit this long.
[55:52] Mike: Oh yeah.
[55:57] Keith: To ban that one. But.
[56:00] Mike: Well I think they still have a telegram group which is where that Teller swift ah Porn fake porn was circulating apparently so which I did find for you at least some of it. Yeah, that's yes, super tame.
[56:05] Keith: Oh I thought that thank you? Yeah I've found it remarkably tame. Um, but but that that's not a problem of the Ai the the Ai was like pretty perfect.
[56:21] Mike: It's pretty good and I mean there are we we should. We don't have time to talk about this topic now either. We should maybe take a note because there's a topic to talk about in terms of I mean the the government at the highest levels they're talking about outlawing this stuff which is preposterous it. You're just outlawing a normal. It's like it's.
[56:33] Keith: Um, well they won't work so doesn't matter.
[56:39] Mike: Yeah, it's like 1 of these things we are outlawing a thing that everyone wants so you're just going to you can basically put anyone in jail then or whatever because everybody's going to consume it. So anyway.
[56:39] Keith: Um, right.
[56:47] Keith: Yep, Okay I wanted to do one last topic. This person says how to masturbate in the hospital is a woman fuck this is embarrassing I've been an impatient for a few days and to be honest I'm just extremely horny and don't know how to find release could get privacy in the bathroom but I'm having trouble. Figuring out logistics I've been using toys for so long that doing it manually doesn't work for me and neither does penetration I've heard of women using bristles of a toothbrush before does that actually feel good or is there anything else that I haven't considered.
[57:04] Mike: No.
[57:15] Keith: And the comments aren't great and what 1 person says maybe at this point it's been long enough that your body will be so needy for an orgasm that your fingers will be plenty ah somebody says use the vibration motor on your phone. Apparently there are apps that will make it so that your phone just keeps vibrating.
[57:29] Mike: Yeah, it's not a bad idea. It's noisy. But yeah.
[57:33] Keith: Um, somebody mentions a ah electric toothbrush. Um, yeah, ah but you could pretend you're brushing your teeth ah make sure you take the Cardiac monitor off if you.
[57:40] Mike: Again, noisy. But yeah, this is a bigger. This would be a bigger problem for a man. Yeah.
[57:51] Keith: Do it? Ah, but anyway I mean that's like the top 7 comments like nobody has like a great ah proposal here. Um, and I think women need more time than men.
[57:51] Mike: Oh my god.
[58:06] Mike: Um, not necessarily for masturbating it depends I mean there there actually is some data that they can get it done pretty quickly I think yeah I was I've talked over you. But I think I think that generally this is it would be a harder problem for men because most men especially now in this day and age would want some content.
[58:10] Keith: If properly incentivized.
[58:21] Mike: To consume while doing it and you also have the protrusion of the penis which can't be hidden easily? Um, but I think it does make sense I mean if I were a woman Well actually okay I think it would be better if women didn't need a vibrator so it's like maybe ease up on that generally for women like make it so you can do it with your hand.
[58:23] Keith: Um, right.
[58:40] Mike: But some women can't so there you go and I'm curious. It makes me curious by the yeah fair point. Yeah, if you were stuck on a desert island. What would you do you just have to rub some sand on it I guess but we but it makes me wonder whether.
[58:40] Keith: Well, that's like asking a man to masturbate without porn I mean they can and they probably should. But.
[58:50] Keith: Oh.
[58:57] Mike: I mean I know this comes up in Jail Prison situations I Wonder how hospitals deal with this because when you have somebody a man in particular who's in there I mean do you? Yeah, it's just a reality reality and I don't know if there's something that we don't hear about on a day-to day basis that they do to deal with this.
[59:11] Keith: Yeah.
[59:14] Mike: The humane thing would be to have for guys would just be to have some woman that comes her and a jerks them all off frankly that would be the humane thing but I know I know our country's not going to do that. Um, you know she could be well- paidid Um, but I think guys would appreciate that and she'd be like ok here comes the jerk off person's good.
[59:24] Keith: Yeah, that won't happen.
[59:34] Mike: She could just show her her her her chest or something and then make some sounds.
[59:35] Keith: I think some countries I think the Netherlands is moving in that direction and basically having paid sex workers available in hospitals. Um.
[59:42] Mike: Well I mean look if I were let's say I had I broke what? what would you know? just I have something that puts me in the hospital where I just have to be there but I'm actually feeling sort of okay and I have to be there for a you know a month yeah I mean like I don't I would be willing to pay to have something.
[59:58] Keith: For sure I I haven't gone more than a few days without masturbating in decades and so like I yeah I Just don't know. Um I think it yeah would be really, it would be a big problem. So.
[59:59] Mike: In that direction happened because it would just be uncomfortable and lame.
[01:00:11] Mike: Right? Yeah and you're and and and and importantly, you're going to get weird behaviors out of it. That's the reason people should do this. It's like legalizing normalizing something like massage parlors for men and in outside world.
[01:00:14] Keith: Anyway.
[01:00:26] Mike: In all these situations. The reason to do it is and is oh you could say oh poor guys. The thing is there's like a percentage of guys that will start acting crazy right? If you don't solve the problem and so I bet there's various ah not sexual assaults but various problems that happen with nurses and who whoever else. Because of this like it creates issues and so it would be better just to deal with it forthrightly and the only reason we don't deal with it for forthrightly is just sort of weird puritanical Nonsense. So.
[01:00:49] Keith: Yeah, no I completely agree all right? That'll do it for this episode of your mileage may Vary. You can write us at Y Mmvpod at gmil.com. Ah, we pay $10 for any feedback so you can tell us how great or how terrible we are and we will give you $10 Ah, Regardless, just give us your cash app or Benbo. You can also ask those questions there and if you don't want us to use them on the show. Please let us know thanks for your time and we will catch you next week on your mileage may vary.