YMMV is a weekly podcast about SEX and RELATIONSHIPS.
Enjoy YMMV? Please click the above button to subscribe to the show!
Give us your email for show notes and reminders:  
To listen to an episode, just scroll down and press the play button.

Episode 161: Birth Control Virtue Signaling, MFF Threesome Downsides, Plugging For Tightness, Oral Expectations

Team YMMV | 3-22-2024 | 1:10:59

Read The Transcript

      RSS             S      

There's no way to know the full extent to which people claiming to use multiple forms of birth control are virtue signaling. Sure, it's believable that in early sexual encounters people might use a condom as well as the pill, to protect against STIs. But there's definitely some sort of limit here, and later in a relationship the benefit derived is pretty unclear.

MFF threesomes are pretty commonplace in men's fantasy arsenals. But it's less common for men to think through the mechanics and the consequences. For example, what will the second woman do while he's interacting with the first? And, of course, this is all assuming that the threesome isn't really because the two women want to pursue a lesbian experience.

And, to what lengths might a man go to avoid giving oral sex to his female partner? Should oral sex be considered "table stakes" in intimate relationships?

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/161/threesome

https://ymmv.me/161/plug

https://ymmv.me/161/smell

https://ymmv.me/161/pill

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

  • [00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is often controversial but mostly in good faith I've put together an entertaining list of sexy topics to discuss today including yet another threesome disaster whether butt plugs can make women tighter. A husband reporting a how do you say this word pissign pissign sent p I s c I n e pissim. Yes, a fishy scent from his wife's nether region and more I am Keith Michael
  • [00:24] Mike: How's it spelled? Oh so P seen So it's a it's a swimming pool. What's a swimming pool. Yeah oh you mean a pest pesk. You mean like like fish though you so it's not's pest peskin.
  • [00:39] Keith: Fishy Yeah I looked I looked this up. What is it arc a p I s it is p I s C I N E Yeah, it means over concerning fish.
  • [00:41] Mike: I think they spelled or only I think that must be PESC I e this is super interesting radio but it is okay well that's the french word. Okay piss piss guy in or something that's that's also the french word for a swimming pool but that's not relevant in this case.
  • [00:57] Keith: Yeah, probably the same route but whatever.
  • [01:01] Mike: I don't think so you think you think a swimming pool in France has something do with fish. It could actually maybe it is spelled literally the same. But ah I'd have to do some etymological research here I'd have to consult my dictionary of the.
  • [01:07] Keith: Um, I mean it's spelled literally the same.
  • [01:11] Keith: Like so just on just on first principles.
  • [01:19] Mike: French language behind me etc I'm not going to do that right now.
  • [01:21] Keith: Yeah, all right? Let's move on. Ah I was on a date recently and someone told me that I look like ah I'd be good at figure skating I was telling a story about how I got I got a concussion.
  • [01:37] Mike: Um, that's your trauma. Yeah.
  • [01:39] Keith: When I was in second grade taking skating lessons and how yeah we were talking about that before the show and yeah, she was like oh yeah, you look like you'd be good at figure skating and I was like wait hold on what does that fucking mean I really didn't like it. Mike.
  • [01:48] Mike: Yeah, she's saying you're gay and I know what it means? yeah.
  • [01:58] Keith: And she immediately kind of started walking it back because you know she was like oh you have like the figure and I was like what are you doing like this is not making it better. Um.
  • [02:06] Mike: Yeah, figure skating being a diver is probably also risky and then gymnastics for a guy. Maybe I'm not sure. Gymnastics is a little more like Macho because you have to be but I probably they certainly look stronger I don't know I don't.
  • [02:12] Keith: Yeah. Well their bodies are stronger right.
  • [02:24] Keith: Well divers look strong too I don't I don't know if we really get to see male figure skaters bodies the way we get to see female because the women wear skirts or something but the men wear like legons.
  • [02:25] Mike: I Mostly watch the women's gymnastics. Yeah, it's true.
  • [02:40] Mike: Pants or leggings. Yeah, okay, so she so she walked it back quickly is this? Ah okay, this is not 1 of the women who's so Keith for listeners enjoyment Keith will not tell me where.
  • [02:44] Keith: She didn't walk it back with nearly the enthusiasm I would have liked her to.
  • [02:57] Mike: Women he dates lives because he and this is true. He's afraid that I will show up at their houses which fair enough fair enough like I don't actually ah you know you got to know when you when somebody's got you pegged? Ah so this is this one of the women where you would not tell me actually all of them. It's just that That's just like the global list. So.
  • [03:06] Keith: Is.
  • [03:15] Keith: Um, yeah, ah yes, it it is that person. Yes, that's the person you're thinking of said that.
  • [03:16] Mike: You know you you know probing for information here but ok, ok, ok, ok, um, yeah I mean I I think that it was probably meant in good faith. Ah you say basically saying you're muscular and.
  • [03:28] Keith: I Think it was too. Yeah, lean.
  • [03:33] Mike: Tall and lithe not gay looking um necessarily although I do think the male figure skiters typically frequently are gay. It's odd though I mean the couples and the ice dancer guys. You'd.
  • [03:42] Keith: I Think a disproportionate number of male figure skaters are are homosexual. Yes.
  • [03:52] Mike: Feel like at least 1 time I've there. There was a couple that was like married that did it? Okay, okay, there's a lot of hand to crotch contact or I don't exactly know where their hands are ah, do they use the pubic bone to support the woman probably not.
  • [03:55] Keith: Ah, yes, that's pretty normal in ice dancing.
  • [04:05] Keith: I Think ah that would be my guess what else would they use when they're like holding them up in the air.
  • [04:16] Mike: I'm going to assume it's the pubic bone because that makes me the happiest I'm not I'm not sure I could go I'd have to go down to the ice center and ask.
  • [04:19] Keith: Maybe they can maybe they can hold their butt somehow or something. Yeah Pubic bone seems useful. They could use their abdomen. Maybe yeah, all right.
  • [04:24] Mike: Maybe but sometimes they get into positions where they're kind of leaned forward and like kind of like a butterfly or like they have their arms spread and in that position you'd have to have that doesn't seem right at the? yeah yeah, good good.
  • [04:37] Keith: Must be pubic bone. Okay, hopefully don't have a slip of a thumb.
  • [04:43] Mike: Have you do you? Um, enjoy. There is okay so I'm sure you know this there is gymnast porn right? like hyper flexibility porn. This is a this is a genre. Okay.
  • [04:51] Keith: Um, ah ah well yes I don't know if it's I think it's usually in the context of yoga more than gymnastics.
  • [05:02] Mike: Well no, they've both I mean with the the main thing is just you have a person who for example, there are videos where the woman does the splits over the guys Cock or yeah and it's.
  • [05:13] Keith: Yes, I've definitely seen this I brought up I brought up mia malcova last week or two weeks ago she's like a yes, she's exceptionally flexible.
  • [05:22] Mike: Is that what one of the things she does. Okay, yeah I don't know that it's that compelling though because it seems like the woman has to get into such a contorted position that um, she's concentrating on holding the position. Basically. More than the experience. Underway What do you think about that.
  • [05:44] Keith: I mean I have this topic with the butt plug making things tighter for later. But I imagine that fully is the word splay splaying your legs out like that yeah might make things less.
  • [05:49] Mike: Yeah.
  • [05:59] Mike: Splayed. Yeah. For her. Okay, not too tight for him.
  • [06:03] Keith: Less comfortable. Yeah, and then for him I have seen this but I'm having problems picturing it now like how do they position to get her legs split like she she sits on top of them or something.
  • [06:15] Mike: There are two things I've seen. Yeah, basically the 2 things I've seen are she's on top of him and the other one is she's like on the edge of a couch or bed or something and she basically makes us so both of her legs are parallel to the bed or couch.
  • [06:30] Keith: She's standing.
  • [06:32] Mike: No, she's sitting. He's reclining on it. But the point is her legs are parallel so that it's basically there's no it's it's like a and they're they're horizontal. They're splayed out as you said, um, that seems like a more I guess comfortable position I mean not.
  • [06:40] Keith: Yeah, got it.
  • [06:49] Mike: Not being someone who's ever been able to do such a thing in my life I don't know have you ever been able to do the splits. Okay sure sure. Yeah yeah, I'm reasonably flexible I can I can put my.
  • [06:55] Keith: What's no I can't even touch my toes can you touch your toes really sorry with your legs straight with but the standard huh. Okay, you have looser hamstrings than I.
  • [07:09] Mike: Toe in my mouth. My big toe. Not I mean if I want to I don't start something I sit around doing but if I wanted to I could do that? Yeah, ah yeah, okay.
  • [07:12] Keith: Yeah, yes I don't think I can do that I don't think um yeah anyway I didn't like being called.
  • [07:29] Mike: Um, life.
  • [07:30] Keith: Told that I'd look skinny I am skinny but I'm strong Mike all right we got to do this threesome? Um, this is basically as classic of a threesome disaster as I can imagine but I'll I'll read it for everybody. Ah m f f.
  • [07:32] Mike: You look? Okay, yeah you yes.
  • [07:45] Mike: Um, m m f or MFm or m wait m m m m f.
  • [07:49] Keith: Or no MFMMFMF.
  • [07:51] Mike: Um, fmf So the women do not have contact with one another. Okay.
  • [07:57] Keith: Um, it's actually not clear. Ah, let me read it I don't remember it might be mmf I don't remember all right recent threesome with girl with my girlfriend's bestie has made things a bit awkward. No shit sherlock. My girlfriend really wanted to experience a threesome. We were both comfortable with the idea of doing it with her best friend how magnanimous of him we made sure that we were comfortable with everything prior to going through with it and just went with the flow. The first time we did it was a lot of fun so much that they offered it up again a couple days later.
  • [08:10] Mike: Girlfriend's best to you for.
  • [08:28] Keith: Second time was great as well. My girlfriend was really into it and talked about it for days after but she suddenly had a change of heart on it. She stopped being affectionate and became cold towards me I asked her if she was okay and she brushed me off saying she was fine asked her again later on when we are in bed she usually loves hair tickles I don't know what that is.
  • [08:44] Mike: I Don't know. Yeah.
  • [08:47] Keith: As she falls asleep but she pushed me away then she said that she was uncomfortable that I gave her friend oral during the threesomeha we right? We we discussed prior to the threesome that we could all do it to each other without anyone taking issue.
  • [08:52] Mike: Um, but she wasn't uncomfortable about it until three days after it happened that's important. Yeah.
  • [09:02] Mike: Okay, there we go.
  • [09:04] Keith: She hates the fact that I made her friend orgasm during oral and doesn't want to kiss me because she thinks it's dirty that I did it I'm unsure where to go from here. This was clearly a terrible idea. Yeah I mean.
  • [09:17] Mike: Seems like the setup for the roommate switch if he was so good for the other woman. Maybe he could now just approach her and say look if you like that oral action honey right? ah.
  • [09:21] Keith: No yeah.
  • [09:28] Keith: Do a little dosey dough. Ah I mean I have sort of 2 minds on this. The first is one why play with fire and then the second I think is a little bit more controversial but like if your relationship is so delicate. Maybe it's better to have like a forcing issue. Like why? avoid a stress test if 1 presents itself like don't you want to know that your girlfriend is going to be insecure and jealous sooner rather than later.
  • [09:55] Mike: Well I don't yeah but I don't even think that's necessarily what happened what I think happened is that his girlfriend had a conversation with somebody. Maybe her best friend from the situation and she's sort of under the psychological sway of that other person.
  • [10:07] Keith: Yeah.
  • [10:14] Mike: Right In other words, she was fine with it until she was informed that there was something she shouldn't be fine with like maybe the best friend was teasing her and was like oh you didn't mind that he you know his his he he did such a good job or something and then that bothered her and so she's very like impressionable or something. Um.
  • [10:17] Keith: I say Yeah yeah.
  • [10:33] Mike: Which goes to your point about like a thing that you'd want to find out about the person.
  • [10:34] Keith: Yeah I mean regardless of her psychological pathways to get to the upset here if your partner suggests something twice and then later vilifies you for it. That feels like something you want to know sooner rather than later right? Yes, for being a ah giving lover.
  • [10:56] Mike: Um, she vilified him for doing a good job actually during it like he he he applied himself. Yeah I mean it wasn't well because the usual the usual complaint here a more um, a much more common complaint with the m f f or fmf or whatever Threesome is. The guy where he plants his seed so to speak right? That's that can be a matter of dispute.
  • [11:17] Keith: Right? right? You come in the other girl and now your partner is like unable to unsee that. And yeah.
  • [11:25] Mike: Right? And that that apparently is very affecting for women sort of to to see that event take place ironically because women kind of will take the the position that like. Sex and a relationship doesn't matter as much to them. But then this this this issue of I mean it makes sense. Biologically they would care where the semen goes right? I mean that's a a billion little lives.
  • [11:47] Keith: Yeah I you I'm not confused I'm not confused about why women can find watching their man fuck someone else a little bit disheartening. Ah.
  • [11:58] Mike: Um, but it's not just that It's the nutting. It's like there's a specific target around that or yeah.
  • [12:04] Keith: Yeah, do yeah, do you think that like some material percentage of threesome disaster stories could be ah mitigated if the man was careful to orgasm with his own partner.
  • [12:19] Mike: Yeah I mean there's well this is just a thing that often gets preno prenegotiated there there 2 main things that often get prenegotiated one is kissing and the second is where his semen goes those 2 but him giving oral to the other woman doesn't seem.
  • [12:27] Keith: Who.
  • [12:37] Keith: I mean it could be if he's really enthusiastic about it and he seems really into it if he's if he does anything to her that like he hadn't done with his partner.
  • [12:38] Mike: As concerning, right? I mean. Yeah.
  • [12:50] Mike: Seems unlikely. It might just work better. Ah, with yeah I mean there's like yeah sure I mean you but you could imagine. There's a number of like corner cases. You could imagine like what was it last week we ah were talking about the woman who bought.
  • [12:51] Keith: Yeah, some women are more able to receive oral.
  • [13:06] Mike: The man who bought a dildo that was shaped in a certain way that was able to give his right? What If what if that happened what if he's fucking but he's not going to come. He's just fucking the other girl and and it's just like he's the right shape for her and she just goes nuts that could be like very concerning for the girlfriend also because she's like well.
  • [13:07] Keith: Oh yeah, had the Upward curve.
  • [13:25] Mike: Now Now he's going to prefer her because look what he can do to her right? There's so many so many risk points here but no risk no reward go ahead.
  • [13:30] Keith: Yeah. Yeah, one of the kind. Yeah I guess I okay, one of the comments here sounds unfortunate but sometimes these things happen we're all prone to regrets and unforeseen complications. Would say first and foremost you should check in on her and use reaffirming language like we won't do anything like this again unless you're 100%. Okay and I want to make sure I didn't do anything wrong that I didn't mean to once you've reassured her and given her given her the space to calm down and process it work together on things like okay, let's solve these things together. But do you think we should do next let her feel heard and reassure her that the event means nothing to you without her I feel like that's all like this advice is basically lie to her like don't tell her that you feel like you've been double crossed here that like you didn't do anything wrong that her emotionality around this is a bit unfair like.
  • [14:10] Mike: Now.
  • [14:28] Keith: It's fine. It's fine to say like you know now that I think about it I can see why you might be upset about that and I'm sorry but ah, blaming me for that is not fair. This isn't my fault.
  • [14:28] Mike: You're thinking you're yeah.
  • [14:42] Mike: Is there is there is there ever a situation in a relationship where you think that a guy should basically just swallow his pride and pretend like ah he he's okay with a critique like this because I mean I can I can see both sides do it One side is look. This is always going to bother him because he had to.
  • [14:59] Keith: Yeah.
  • [15:00] Mike: Lie about this and so he'll always sort of hold it against her. The other side is like look Maybe it's just not that big of a deal and so he just lets it go it says fine. Whatever I'll just say say the set of words you want me to say which is kind of what this person is recommending right.
  • [15:13] Keith: Yeah, yeah, I mean as you know I Really don't like lying at all. Um, even tactical white lies. Ah I think in the long run. It's usually a bad strategy.
  • [15:20] Mike: Ah, right.
  • [15:26] Mike: Do you think it would make you think less of her also because she ought to be able to detect it as a lie now. So it's just yeah.
  • [15:31] Keith: Yes, Yeah I mean there's all that's there's this whole swirl of things that come in when you introduce lying to like the rhetorical Salvo. It's better if you could just sort of eliminate that and then everyone always knows that they're being honest with each other and. Sure you do get like mini hurts every once in a while because of it. But it's better than the like rolodex of deceits that you need to keep track of it's.
  • [16:02] Mike: That's true. But I think like I think with because of the lack of self-assurance frequently. The young women have like guys wind up feeling like they have to do this.
  • [16:10] Keith: Yeah I mean it's a little bit unfair when you're going against like you know their entire upbringing and culture culturalization and you know the sociology that they've been exposed to right.
  • [16:22] Mike: You basically mean the that they have the expectation that the guy will apologize even if it doesn't make any sense.
  • [16:29] Keith: Yeah, like the first time a woman asks you do I look good in this dress and you say like well no, not really, you're you're not just you don't get to make like the sort of point that I just made which is like in the long run like you'll be more trusting my opinion will be more valuable to you because you know I'll always be honest and all this kind of stuff like.
  • [16:46] Mike: Who the.
  • [16:49] Keith: You can imagine situations where it's worth saying like yeah you look great baby and then just moving on.
  • [16:54] Mike: Is that I mean do you think that? that's this is like a malfunction I mean. Ah so I assume that this at core I don't know for sure. But I assume at core this behavior by a woman is all about trying to vet a guy for. You know, having kids with like that's the biological drive here I Assume it's like so is that a mistake are women making a systematic mistake by basically expecting a God to lie to them or maybe that maybe it's actually a good decision For some reason you're basically arguing it's a mistake I think that they're that they're there.
  • [17:12] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [17:29] Mike: They're going I mean they're they're going to wind up pairing up with liars at the best and maybe something worse.
  • [17:35] Keith: Yeah I mean I'm a little bit skeptical that women or people in general apply like a really coherent and thoughtful vetting process of partners but to the extent they do which.
  • [17:49] Mike: Um, oh it's subconscious for sure.
  • [17:51] Keith: Yeah, but like most people settle for like 1 of the first 5 people they date.
  • [17:56] Mike: Um, but well okay sure. But when you say date you mean have sex with right? Yeah, but they but women have an enormous number of men. They could potentially have sex with right? So so the number of like potential suitors is probably.
  • [18:00] Keith: Sure.
  • [18:10] Keith: Fair enough.
  • [18:13] Mike: Even for a modestly attractive woman probably in the hundreds or thousands thousands probably they have to vet them somehow and and I'm not suggesting it's conscious I'm deaf it's definitely not conscious like a young woman is going to do a lot of random nonsense. But I think that it's probably subconscious that there's some drive in there and they're trying to sort of figure out. Yeah.
  • [18:16] Keith: Yeah.
  • [18:24] Keith: Um, yeah, fair. Yeah.
  • [18:33] Mike: And so it's yeah, the question is is this like a glitch or is it actually ah smart for some reason. Yeah, like hey I want a guy who when Quizka push comes to shovel basically like eat crow. But at the risk of I'm going to get a liar sweet to.
  • [18:48] Keith: Well I think eating crow is different than like you want a man that can admit when he's wrong I mean I've never been wrong but like ah hypothetically some men are ah and so.
  • [18:50] Mike: Silver Tongued yeah
  • [19:00] Mike: Um, sure.
  • [19:05] Keith: Yeah, you want someone that could ah you know be fallible and admit mistakes and apologize and but but this is this is different. This is like she's looking for a certain kind of sympathy a certain kind of empathy and that that certain something.
  • [19:11] Mike: Um, but there's something else. There's there's like a different need here. Yeah.
  • [19:22] Keith: Basically requires this guy to fall on a sword that he didn't cause.
  • [19:27] Mike: Um, right she wants him to put her needs before his even if he's right maybe that. But maybe that's adaptive because like that's what would happen with a little kid right? I mean little kids do a bunch of nonsense all the time and you basically just have to be like oh well.
  • [19:34] Keith: But it's but it's it's.
  • [19:43] Keith: That's true.
  • [19:43] Mike: So maybe like that's good partner vetting it does like yeah.
  • [19:46] Keith: Maybe I mean I think it's a little different like holding a 3 year old's feet to the flames for throwing a tantrum than it is for her for throwing a tantrum here.
  • [19:59] Mike: Um, that's true, but it might give it may. It's directional. Maybe I'm not sure I'm actually I'm I was asking because I'm not sure. Yeah, um, yeah, it does strike me that women often.
  • [20:01] Keith: Yeah I understand your your point is well taken I I don't know.
  • [20:15] Mike: Wind up selecting guys who just are clever at manipulating them and that could be a malfunction here I mean nothing's perfect I don't know um you you would think that the most adaptive thing for a woman would be to be jealous and not want to do an M f f three. So.
  • [20:21] Keith: Right.
  • [20:31] Keith: Yeah I mean generally wanting to do threesomes I think is a canary and some kind of of there's something wrong Coal mine. Um.
  • [20:36] Mike: Such a bad idea.
  • [20:43] Mike: Right? Can I so there's a couple other topics around this that I'd like to ask your thoughts on topic 1 is me just take notes here. So I don't lose topic 2 while asking topic one I saw a porn today that was a threesome but the third person was a trans woman.
  • [20:48] Keith: Okay.
  • [20:57] Keith: Congrats. So what is I an M F t.
  • [21:02] Mike: What do you think about? Yeah yeah, and and and so it was an interesting video. You can people can actually find it. Um, it was one of like the posts in the last week on the chick flicks subreddit so people can find it. It was a yeah they can find it? Um, but the the premise was. Or I noticed in the video as I inspected it that the man did not interact with the transwoman's penis really? Okay, so it sort of kept separately. However, at the the denoument of the video was.
  • [21:26] Keith: Aha.
  • [21:40] Keith: Ah.
  • [21:41] Mike: The man coming sort of into the mouth of the Trans woman. Although yeah and I guess then the Trans woman then did put their lips around his cock so that happened um, but there was no, there was no, he didn't have to like.
  • [21:52] Keith: Okay.
  • [21:58] Mike: Suck a cock or something what are your? what are your thoughts on this mft. It's almost like an Nft in this mft situation other than no which I assume is.
  • [22:03] Keith: It is well yeah, basically I I mean I've said this on the show. Ah, a lot of times and I think it's like the first time people hear it. It's a little bit jarring. But. I accidentally match with trans people on dating dating apps all the time and some trans people really look like beautiful women and I just think when the clothes come off.
  • [22:31] Mike: Yes, this person Well whatever like people can judge for themselves. Go ahead.
  • [22:41] Keith: And yeah I Just think that that will be not compelling to me and.
  • [22:42] Mike: Um, the cock Springs to life.
  • [22:49] Mike: It's more compelling than mmf right? I think it is I know I can hear listeners getting mad. Yeah.
  • [22:53] Keith: I cast it I think it's more compelling I think it's more compelling than a man but like I think it would still be like ah yeah I Still think it would be not I I Just don't think. I would be able to get there I might not be able to get aroused? yeah.
  • [23:08] Mike: Um, okay if you you really you think it would like you would be a boner Killer for you. Interesting. Okay, okay, my thought would be that a trans woman sucking your cock would be better than a man sucking your cock.
  • [23:22] Keith: I think so yes, well and then there's like Schrodinger's trans person right? which is like if I don't know that they're trans then how does it even affect me like if if they're a, but if they're passing is a beautiful woman and I don't know.
  • [23:27] Mike: If they don't right? Yeah, it's actually a fair point this this was close to that. Yeah.
  • [23:39] Keith: Then like obviously it's exactly the same as getting a blow job from a beautiful woman. It's and then there's the question of well what if I know that they might be like what what magnitude of might does it take before I'm actually concerned.
  • [23:42] Mike: Yeah, yeah.
  • [23:54] Mike: Right? right? If so you so you're basically describing an m f question Mark where the the question Mark person does not take their pants off or just stays clothed I I'm going to assume they're a man. Yeah.
  • [23:58] Keith: Um, yeah, right, right? But like let's say I have some reason to suspect. Yeah, look if if the problem is if there's a non-zero reason to suspect. It's a what under percent chance for me.
  • [24:13] Mike: Right? That's that it's like it's like the law of glory holes. Yeah, okay, so so I've got another one to ask you about so if a guy so I think most men want to try an MF threesome would that be fair to say this is a normal fetish.
  • [24:17] Keith: And so right right? All right.
  • [24:27] Keith: Yes, yeah I think that's uncontroversial. Yeah I think I think some men probably when it actually came to it might was out. You know they think they're not man enough or something or they're anxious or whatever.
  • [24:33] Mike: Okay, so is the right? yeah.
  • [24:40] Mike: Oh sure.
  • [24:44] Keith: But some people would was out of even like ah having sex with a beautiful woman right? like but but generally you know if people had access to a hollow deck. They would be they would they would press the the 2 woman setting I don't know if.
  • [24:52] Mike: Um, right.
  • [24:55] Mike: Would they press the 3 woman setting or is it just the 2 What do you think I mean what.
  • [25:01] Keith: There's definitely a point beyond which the obligation to satisfy each party becomes onerous.
  • [25:09] Mike: Um, they have in vr porn they have ones where it's like 22 women it'll be like you know some purported team or something and they're all and it's it's just becomes a little odd because there's all these women in the background just kind of cooing almost I mean they don't there is nothing for them to do.
  • [25:17] Keith: Aha.
  • [25:23] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, they can They can pretend to masturbate I guess.
  • [25:26] Mike: You Don know the man doesn't have enough body parts. Well that's the thing it just it's so obviously performative. So I think it may be that 2 is optimal. Okay, but if if a person is going for 2 Go ahead? Yep yeah, say it now say it now.
  • [25:38] Keith: I have 1 more thing to say on that should I say it now or do you want me to hold it. Okay, sometimes when I'm watching mm ah m f f porn where there's the guy especially well I don't know if it matters if it's professionally produced or not but he'll penetrate the first woman first and.
  • [25:54] Mike: Ah.
  • [25:56] Keith: I'll be in my mind wondering thinking to myself when would I want to switch to the other person and it's usually pretty quickly like it's on the may order of seconds.
  • [26:01] Mike: He. Would give us a I mean order of Magnitude here. So So let's imagine So Let's set the stage here. So The women are both lying side by side on the bed spread Eagle Okay or they're they're they're there, you're he or you are on your knees fucking one of them.
  • [26:14] Keith: Say Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  • [26:23] Mike: And you're and you're thinking wouldn would I switch and you're thinking you would switch after under 10 seconds under
  • [26:26] Keith: I don't know if it's under 10 But yeah, and then no not when I'm watching porn I'm I'm not I'm not I'm not.
  • [26:31] Mike: Why would why would you feel bad for you're like oh you're left out so you'd be constant. Ok, what's this is actually interesting. Ok it.
  • [26:43] Keith: Um, onboarding the port pord stars feelings. Yes I think so now when would I want to switch back to the first one is is the second question. Yeah, like is there some sort of like exponential function here like what how does this work.
  • [26:49] Mike: So it sounds like it's under a minute. Okay now what now this is what I want to know.
  • [27:00] Mike: Would yeah would you have ah MFFADD as it were and just constantly be going back and forth really huh so it would actually be a frustrating experience for you because you'd want to be basically filling.
  • [27:05] Keith: Ah I think I would That's what I'm that's that's what I'm conceding here. Yeah.
  • [27:16] Mike: Could you get that feeling by like putting your fingers in the other one at the same time or something or would that be too much work.
  • [27:18] Keith: Maybe I mean don't you think and you know when rubber hit the road here and you were actually in that situation one would actually just feel better for some reason or be better for some reason and then you'd prefer that one or maybe I don't know.
  • [27:34] Mike: I Suspect they would feel similar I think it'd be similar so it'd be kind of yeah I understand your impulse and I also I Really like this idea of like when yeah, asking yourself when you would switch I think that I think that as a guy.
  • [27:37] Keith: Have had this experience.
  • [27:50] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [27:53] Mike: Yeah, you just want you would have all these things you'd want to have happen so you'd be like let's do this. Let's do this. Let's do this. Let's do this. Let's do this So there'd be so I imagine that women who perform this as a service kind of yeah have to go through some list which leads to my question of do you think like the average man should basically.
  • [27:55] Keith: Yeah, you have a checklist.
  • [28:12] Mike: Do this with escorts just to get it out of the way.
  • [28:13] Keith: Maybe yeah to the extent to the extent that it's like an itch in their mind and they're like really curious about it. Yeah, it's probably under a thousand.
  • [28:18] Mike: It's probably probably a thousand bucks or something.
  • [28:26] Mike: I Suspect that the guys might find it actually not that compelling you go? Yeah, it's fine.
  • [28:36] Keith: Yeah I think it's like what do I What's the analogy here. Ah my sisters are twins and my mom talks about how and she had my sisters. My sisters are younger than me and.
  • [28:45] Mike: Ah.
  • [28:49] Keith: She talks about like the amount of work of having 1 kid versus 2 kids and she's like look when you have 1 kid you're basically redlining on having no attention anyway and so with 2 you're still redlining. It's just the kids each individual kids getting a little bit less attention and so like the actual experience for the parent is not that much different than having one.
  • [28:55] Mike: Um, right.
  • [29:03] Mike: Yeah I agree with that I think like having twins could actually be better and you kind of get it all out of the way at the same time. Yeah yeah.
  • [29:08] Keith: And yes, yes, that's the unspoken thing that that she's sort of betraying there. Um, and so it may be with having 2 women in the bedroom. It's like yeah like I guess it's mildly incrementally better than than having one. But It's not twice as good and it's certainly not greater than the sum of its parts. It's not 4 times as good or whatever.
  • [29:33] Mike: Right? Yeah, that's why I but but I could see guys fetish shot I mean of course I could see obviously men fetishize this and so you think well this is something this is an obvious that the the downside of course is that it's possible that this best friend situation actually was more fun than 2 escorts would be because.
  • [29:40] Keith: Yeah.
  • [29:53] Mike: They were. It's more amateur. Whatever they're they're actually having fun at least until this oh of course. Yeah, although I don't know yeah I having not visited an escort I don't know how persuasive they're pretending is.
  • [29:53] Keith: Um, yeah, 2 escorts are pretending.
  • [30:11] Mike: It's something I've wondered about like but yeah can can someone get good enough at it Isis I I suspect it's hard in that I suspect that because of the infrequency of porn stars being good at being persuasive. It's difficult for porn stars to make persuasive porn surprisingly. So.
  • [30:26] Keith: Yes, yeah, the main problem I have with 3 some porn is the third is always just awkwardly there to the side and you can just feel them like thinking about what they're having for dinner that night like it's not it's not sexy
  • [30:40] Mike: Yeah, and then and then as soon as the guy the guy moves to switch and she's like oh now I have to pretend to be excited and the other ones. Yeah, the other one's like oh good now I can think about what I'm having for dinner like that. The great bowel movement I had 2 hours ago or whatever. Yeah.
  • [30:46] Keith: Right? Yeah, suddenly she's moaning and you know like all right right now I can door dash dinner right? God All right? all right? Let's get onto this butt plug thing. Um.
  • [30:59] Mike: Yeah.
  • [31:02] Keith: This person says my boyfriend told me it will feel better for him if I wear a butt plug during p I v my 27 year old boyfriend the boy her boyfriend.
  • [31:08] Mike: Um, wait who told hang on hang on who told them just her boyfriend said it to us or I thought there was a third person in this conversation. Go ahead. Okay.
  • [31:16] Keith: No yeah, my 27 year old boyfriend told me she's 25 ah, they've been together for two months and the sex has been really great so far but now she's concerned last night. He told me that when I get really turned on and into it. It feels loose for him and it's hard for him to finish. He suggested I wear a butt pla butt plug during sex to make it feel tighter is this actually a thing. Obviously it's all very close together in there. So I can sort of believe it. But I've never heard of this in my life I'm totally open to using anal toys like this if it actually makes pib more enjoyable for him, but it just seems strange. Also. He's shown an interest in butt stuff before licking rubbing rubbing me there and 2 times he fingered me twice. Good good for him I'm honestly kind of worried this is some strategy to get me to use anal toys. It doesn't have anything to do with how loose I feel help. So.
  • [32:00] Mike: Ah.
  • [32:07] Mike: It is.
  • [32:11] Keith: That was my intuition as well. But like all of the comments here say that it does okay, so the first comment. So yes, this is true and it feels great as a woman too because it feels like it makes all the juicy nerve bundles feel a lot more accessible.
  • [32:14] Mike: Um, yeah.
  • [32:27] Keith: And then they go on Also got to say this is kind of a shitty way to suggest it.. It's not a fix for what sounds like a pretty normal vagina. It's an enhancement for sure I feel like this way of Approaching. It is kind of a ploy to neg you into doing butt stuff when he could simply have said hey you know what? you know what? I hear. Feels really cool for both of us. Are you interested in trying that. So I agree that like the way he delivered this is lame but I did not know that wearing a butt plug could change PIV sensations. Are you skeptical of that.
  • [33:01] Mike: Um, well well, that's a woman talking right? So the woman is saying different sensations and I guess that obviously I don't I can't opine on. Ah what I can say is that I don't recall in this type of city. Okay, 2 things.
  • [33:02] Keith: I Need to read more comments here to prove that other people it is yeah.
  • [33:13] Keith: Um.
  • [33:19] Mike: But plug implies like a there's a there's a question as to how wide it is right? The thing you jam or you gently place in there. Um, but the the ah the in my experience with something kind of penis sized. It doesn't.
  • [33:23] Keith: Okay.
  • [33:29] Keith: Well corrected.
  • [33:39] Mike: Materially affect the tightness. No I'm just saying my penis in the vagina if I I have had sex with someone where I placed an object around the diameter of a penis into her ass at the same time and it did not yeah because the problem is that.
  • [33:39] Keith: Well, but you couldn't be in 2 places at once. I see I got it got it. got it got it
  • [33:59] Mike: There's There's actually a lot of potential space in there I think you would have to think you'd have to really put a pretty big butt plug in for for it to materially.
  • [34:10] Keith: I mean trying to imagine like pulling something back. Okay, here's another comment just because I think it's apropos coming from a man. Yes, my wife's vagina.
  • [34:11] Mike: Kind of tighten and the other the other issue I have is that she doesn't really have a loose vagina. It's this is a lubrication thing but okay, go on.
  • [34:23] Mike: Um, yeah.
  • [34:27] Keith: Feels spectacular when she has a plug in Herasss. She feels incredibly tight and the extra simulation makes her really wet more so than usual, she also tends to orgasm in half the time and it's the only way I've gotten her to finish in doggie position where she's usually only able to finish in Missionary. We made the. Decision to incorporate but plugs with intimate time because we both get something out of it. She feels great Bla Bla Blah Aon he goes on but I don't know and ah you know your mileage may vary. Yeah.
  • [34:50] Mike: Maybe it's true I don't know that that.
  • [34:58] Mike: I Know he thinks that she finishes in half the time I believe that is she actually finishing. Maybe she's quote unquote finishing in half the time because she just wants to get that thing out of her asshole. Um, but that being said, yeah and I I am aware. Yeah.
  • [35:07] Keith: Right? Yeah Males Males reports on female orgasms are reliably ah unreliable. Yeah.
  • [35:14] Mike: Or Unreliable yet. But but you do I mean I've read enough like I believe there are women that get something out of this I sort of would think to be honest with you I would sort of think that the woman would get more stimulation out of the kind of part near her anus like the stretching there. Then something inside that's like pushing like yeah, pushing out into the vagina like that's a little anatomically little so little suspect particularly in the doggy style position because when you're in the doggie style position things kind of fall forward a little bit so actually like yeah.
  • [35:48] Keith: Yeah.
  • [35:52] Mike: I mean limit bit it this way if if this made a huge difference wouldn't it be possible to make the woman's vagina much tighter just by pushing on her lower abdomen which you can a little but I just think that like there's there's a lot of soft tissue in there.
  • [35:59] Keith: Yeah, there would be some sort of.
  • [36:09] Keith: Yeah, and yeah and butt plugs don't occupy enough volume to it would have to be something.
  • [36:09] Mike: Right? There's Intestines. There's a bladder.. There's all this other stuff in there and it's like and there's fat. Well, they would compress the other stuff but like they're in on anyway, go ahead.
  • [36:22] Keith: There could be some sort of like maybe I'm overfitting myself here but there could be some sort of nerve ending thing going on here where by having the plug in you're exposing more.
  • [36:34] Mike: Yeah.
  • [36:42] Keith: Range of sensation or something I don't know.
  • [36:42] Mike: Around the anus I I could see that but the problem there is that the the place where you're rubbing against the butt plug is sort of the in between the vagina and the Rectum which is not where the clit is it's the other side you're on the wrong side.
  • [36:56] Keith: Right.
  • [37:00] Mike: So it's a little hard now. 1 thing that I feel good about the anatomical discussion here is that I'm very confident that your brother in law who's a doctor will not correct me on this one because you'd then be like well how do you know or something. There's some some weirdness in that conversation. So I feel like this one I'm safe.
  • [37:06] Keith: M. Right.
  • [37:21] Keith: Ah, yeah, um I think we're done with this one. Let's do let's do okay did we decide. How do we pronounce this pisse Pisse Piss Sign Piss Sign Piss sign. Okay.
  • [37:36] Mike: Um, it's it's gonna be piss sign. Yeah, it's like something I.
  • [37:41] Keith: This person says my husband told me my vagina smells fishy I had a baby nine months ago Husband has not gone down on me since I was pregnant when I asked him months ago. Why he hasn't gone down on me for a while he said he was still traumatized ever after having seen some things our child being born and that he's still waiting for me to heal.
  • [37:44] Mike: Um, yeah.
  • [37:56] Mike: Um, yeah.
  • [38:00] Keith: Told him that I've been healed since week six postpartum but ok, whatever. so yesterday right right ah so yesterday I yeah I'm not interested in being in the room if my would be partner is giving birth if she wants me to be there.
  • [38:04] Mike: Um, he's the 1 he needs psychiatric healing.
  • [38:20] Keith: Then of course but I don't think I need to get down like below the waist like looking up in there.
  • [38:21] Mike: Um, it's not they don't Um, so yeah I mean here's the thing about that is that you're not encouraged because I have been in the room twice. You're not encouraged as a guy to like be down watching the fucking baby Emerge exactly.
  • [38:30] Keith: Um, yeah, right? yeah.
  • [38:39] Mike: Ah, you're you're and you're encouraged now I will say you're encouraged to be sort of supportive and near the head of your spouse or of your your partner. Yeah, but I will say this though um more trauma traumatizing. Um, my wife has a friend.
  • [38:42] Keith: Yeah, holding your what your your spouses hey yeah or your partner. Yeah.
  • [38:57] Keith: How now.
  • [38:58] Mike: My wife has a friend who 2 things happened 1 Ah, we were asked to store her placenta in our freezer it'surreal thing I don't know man it wasn't cold pleasant cold enough it was ours was grosser I'm not sure so there was that.
  • [39:05] Keith: Ah, what was wrong with her freezer.
  • [39:11] Keith: Ah, okay.
  • [39:17] Mike: And then the other thing that happened I don't I've blocked it out see this is psychiatric I've got there's certain things you need to block out and this is one of them. It's in the vault. It's it's in the ah unintentional vault like my bot. My my brain is shut down. Ah the other. The other thing that happened was.
  • [39:17] Keith: Um, was it in tupperware. What was it in? Ok, good good. Yeah.
  • [39:34] Mike: She for some reason had somebody I wasn't there I wasn't there because it's like it's a little weird to be so it's unusual. It is unusual for another for a man who's not one of the doctors nurses or the husband or partner to be in the delivery room right? because it's a little uncomfortable. Okay, so I wasn't there.
  • [39:42] Keith: Yes.
  • [39:51] Mike: However, apparently there was someone there with a camera so I ah had the mount I had the um unhappy experience of also encountering like ah 1 of those little cards that had like sd cards from a camera because it was that had pictures of this woman's vagina.
  • [39:57] Keith: Now.
  • [40:03] Keith: Mike.
  • [40:10] Keith: Ah.
  • [40:11] Mike: And so I actually have of course you could just watch it on Youtube or something you can find videos of this right? yes.
  • [40:13] Keith: You can't there are accounts usually by doulas that like put this weird I don't want to call it porn Birth porn. It's gross.
  • [40:24] Mike: Um, but I I saw yeah I saw these pictures involuntarily because I was like what's on this card and then you know unfortunately most computers when you plug in one of these cards like all the images pop up in a gallery and you're sort of fucked. Um, so anyway.
  • [40:29] Keith: Yeah, yeah, me, Yeah yeah.
  • [40:40] Mike: Ah, but yeah so I can understand the it's confusing because it's you're seeing it operate in a way that you're not but accustomed to call it. Okay, so this guy this guy's traumatized.
  • [40:53] Keith: Um, I think there's not much. There's not much upside and there's a lot of downside.
  • [41:00] Mike: Um, well not being in the delivery rooms is weird right? That's a little frowned on frowned upon you just want to be near the head which is what the normal thing is.
  • [41:02] Keith: Oh yeah I think being in the delivery room is fine I don't know I don't I don't really want to ask you this question but I'll note that I'm considering asking this question which is like did you notice any smell but like I don't want you to answer that so like look but just great. Okay, good.
  • [41:14] Mike: No no I did not I didn't no, they're good I think they're good at sort of like managing that kind of situation.
  • [41:22] Keith: Yeah, but you can imagine these people that do homebirths it's just.
  • [41:28] Mike: I'm not yeah, maybe yeah, if you if you're not as good at managing I mean I think there is ah I assume where you're going with that is like this question of whether there's some poop that comes out too and I think the answer is there can be Yeah well, there's definitely bleeding.
  • [41:40] Keith: Um, I think there can be bleeding and you know there's blood. Sorry I guess bleeding and blood are the same thing.
  • [41:44] Mike: Yeah, of course yeah, but that doesn't smell like I smell I take to mean like shitting like because you're pushing down there and like this I guess this again gets to this question of like how much space is down there. Ah like there must be a lot of space down there if a baby can come out and a piece of.
  • [41:49] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
  • [42:04] Mike: And at the same time. But anyway.
  • [42:05] Keith: Oh yeah, that's true, all right back to the topic at hand. So yesterday I am a bit upset and craving to be eaten out and so I ask again. This motherfucker tells me it's it's because I smell fishy what the fuck now let me just say.
  • [42:10] Mike: But yeah, the topic at hand. Yeah.
  • [42:19] Mike: Um, okay.
  • [42:23] Mike: Um, yeah.
  • [42:24] Keith: And think I know what a bad smelling pussy smells like I was a hoe back in my teen days and ah and had some bad smells before and I did laser hair removal on vaginas for 4 years so I have smelled some things before to me I do not think I smell off whatsoever I'm a very clear clean person I think that that shot.
  • [42:32] Mike: Oh okay, yeah.
  • [42:43] Keith: Imagine being a tech doing laser hair removal on Vaginas and.
  • [42:48] Mike: Um, I mean if you were I think it would be more fun potentially to do like waxing just because then maybe you could be which is it a masochist or a sadist who likes to to hurt other people but the laser thing I think doesn't hurt too much. Oh that's good.
  • [42:58] Keith: Um, yeah I think it hurts a little I think it's like getting tattooed or something.
  • [43:05] Mike: I mean shooting lasers at someone's vagina could be fun for a while like I would I would do that for a week wouldn't you like for a week actually I think wonder if I could do that.
  • [43:10] Keith: I Don't know I feel like if you get you don't want to get too desensitized to like the magic of a naked vagina. You know you want that to still be special. Maybe maybe I mean I've definitely seen.
  • [43:22] Mike: Um, you don't think that that's already happened via porn I think.
  • [43:29] Keith: Let's put it this way I've seen more vaginas probably than the average waxing person from fifty years ago
  • [43:36] Mike: Wait what? So the average waxing person for years because they didn't have any clients fifty years ago okay all right, they're probably just what it to make money waxing. You would have to have like several hundred clients right? because they're not going to.
  • [43:41] Keith: Yeah, yeah, that was my thought but maybe that's wrong. Maybe maybe there's always been a steady stream.
  • [43:53] Keith: I guess yeah, it's not that expensive. This is like ah this is like a big 4 consulting interview.
  • [43:55] Mike: We can figure how long does it take let's say 30 minutes you sort of pack them in yes, yes, um, but I but but I will say this her her thing about having done laser hair removal gives her a lot of credibility in this area and this is definitely a thing that women.
  • [44:15] Keith: Right? Yes, a lot of women say that they know they don't smell bad. In fact, we talked about this last episode like well how do they know I I Trust this woman's opinion more than the average bear.
  • [44:15] Mike: Say right? women who interact with a lot of vaginas. Yeah.
  • [44:24] Mike: Well because they know what smelling is because across a woman's lifetime. They have various issues in that area typically so.
  • [44:29] Keith: Right? right? All right? So she says to me I do not think I smell off whatsoever I'm a very clean person I eat healthy I've been using the same bar soap for 7 years and only clean the exterior never up inside only water. i' trying to not be upset but now I'm so embarrassed and constantly smelling myself to figure out what he is smelling any advice on what to do because now I'm going to so be so self-conscious every time we do anything sexual. Um, let me read the first comment just because I want to get that out of the way before I say what I think's going on here. First comment sometimes we cannot smell what others smell it's worth a trip to the ob to see if you have bacterial vegiosis. That's what b v stands for ah which is very common post- childdbirth and during nursing years due to hormonal fluctuations affecting immune responses causing bacterial and yeast overgrowth sometimes.
  • [45:09] Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  • [45:20] Mike: No okay.
  • [45:23] Keith: Okay, fishy smells usually indicate a Ph imbalance or Bv Um, and and some stis. But but doubt you have that would you say sorry? Yeah yeah, you could put a what is the what's ah.
  • [45:28] Mike: Do you get 1 of those ph kits for a hot tub. Okay, how you get 1 of those ph kits for a hot tub.
  • [45:42] Keith: What's that paper that turns one color if it's acid and another what is that called Litmus test. Yeah um, um, that's the that's the liquid that you pipet in right? Yeah, um.
  • [45:42] Mike: Turns it it turns pink. Yeah I don't remember oh a limit test. Okay, yeah, sure I was thinking of pheny failing which took yeah just took me a minute to come up with it Tenth grade. Chemistry. Yeah.
  • [46:02] Keith: Yeah, ah I don't think it's the smell.
  • [46:08] Mike: I mean I yeah I would never discourage someone from getting stuff like that checked out but sure. Yeah.
  • [46:14] Keith: Um I wanted I wanted to read the first comment because I agree that it's it's ah on the first order you should trust your husband but I think he's lying.
  • [46:24] Mike: Ah I mean probably he's probably just going through very he has this list of things that he can use to get out of it. Um I don't yeah that we've talked about this before.
  • [46:30] Keith: Right? And and he's sort of panicked and so he decided to lob this grenade but it was sort of ham fisted because now he's basically imposed this horrible self-consciousness on his partner.
  • [46:45] Mike: Yeah I mean is this is this a strategy from like a low sex drive guy is that what's going on because what where this ends up is she's not going to want to have sex with him right? I mean that's because she's going to retaliate this is like nuclear war you got Kim Jong un and someone.
  • [46:52] Keith: Right. Yeah, right? yeah.
  • [47:04] Mike: He's going to lose I mean unless unless unless his goal is to have a dead bedroom and then it's like okay that's interesting strategy I don't know why else a guy would well I Just think that's what the result a guy is going to get to.
  • [47:19] Keith: Yeah, she doesn't mention how much they've had sex but it's strongly implied because she says he hasn't gone down on her does it. She doesn't say they haven't had sex my guess is he? Um, we talked a little bit. About this recently she should have mentioned something right after he stopped and now like a bunch of time has gone by and I know but she you know.
  • [47:43] Mike: Um, well she's he's stopped after the childbirth. Well yeah, okay, fair, you're saying it's.
  • [47:53] Keith: She was she was she was open for business six months after the six weeks after the childbirth and now it's been nine months so it's been sort of normalized at this point.
  • [48:00] Mike: Um, right right? So yeah I mean she could have right.
  • [48:07] Keith: Um, like I think there are some men that don't like don't think that's not a crazy thing to say there are many men that don't like going down on women and so you know he probably initially was bit just being sort of lazy and not being the most giving lover. But now he's sort of normalized it and so. Yeah, like every day that goes By. It seems even quote unquote grosser to him and so he's you know and then she actually came and challenged him about it and he he panicked and said this like kind of awful thing.
  • [48:32] Mike: Um, so you think.
  • [48:37] Mike: So you think he has some like almost Phobic avoidance here. It's like a he so in and and each time he successfully avoids his brain learns that he can avoid. It's like you. You actually think he's in one of those sort of doom loops of of avoidance I don't know if that's.
  • [48:40] Keith: Yes.
  • [48:50] Keith: Yes, that's well put. Yes.
  • [48:56] Mike: You think somebody could be that afraid of that act that they would be yeah I mean that suggests a pretty strong aversion a surprisingly strong aversion in my view. But maybe yeah, maybe a guy could get to that point.
  • [49:10] Keith: Yeah I don't really know what like the right way to communicate something like this to a partner would be like let's just say that he has decided he doesn't want to go down on his wife anymore and let let let you know.
  • [49:26] Mike: I Mean yeah I would have questions I could good idea. Okay, right.
  • [49:29] Keith: Let's like reverse the sexes here for a moment and a woman decides. She doesn't want to go down on a man anymore like like my advice for this man is like get over yourself and go down and go down on his wife. But if I were to say that to a woman like get over yourself and give your husband a blowjo like I would get canceled out of the room. So.
  • [49:39] Mike: Right.
  • [49:47] Keith: Just want to acknowledge that. Yeah, like both sides can decide at any point that there's a sexual act that they don't want to do and so if this man has decided he doesn't want to do this do this anymore. Um, that's potentially fine. But.
  • [49:57] Mike: Um, kind of.
  • [50:05] Keith: He should probably figure out a better way to communicate it to her than making up a medical condition on her behalf.
  • [50:12] Mike: Well yeah I mean I guess there' 2 there there you know these these kinds of things are really complicated though because the word decide can lose its meaning right? if if he if it's is it. Ah is it like is he really is it really a conscious decision or is he in like some weird doom loop.
  • [50:20] Keith: Well yeah.
  • [50:30] Mike: If he's in some weird doom loop like let's say maybe he wants to do it but he like can't bring himself to like then you might ask questions like well I mean could he like get drunk and do it could he just you know? Yeah I mean then you're.
  • [50:34] Keith: Yeah.
  • [50:42] Keith: Yeah, how do you like dip your toes back into the pussy eating water.
  • [50:48] Mike: Yeah, you're basically solving kind of an aversion problem which can be solved in various ways if it's that a conscious decision is yeah and this this comes down to communication right? I mean she you need to find out like if and and the problem with that is he may be unforthcoming because ah, whatever it is may make him look bad. Be embarrassing things like that right.
  • [51:05] Keith: But men are so classically good at communicating.
  • [51:08] Mike: Um, right right? Yeah I don't know. Ah I I find it a little hard to imagine a guy actually getting to the point where he has like a sort of subconscious aversion to giving oral to a woman but maybe.
  • [51:23] Keith: I Think the right thing for this woman to do is to challenge him and be like hey did you say that because you don't want to go down on me for some other reason or or do you think that like I actually have some sort of medical thing that I need to get checked out here because I've been panicking about this.
  • [51:26] Mike: I Don't know.
  • [51:35] Mike: Um, sure that's the right starting point.
  • [51:42] Keith: And if for some reason you don't want to go down on me. That's a bit of a bummer too. But we should have that conversation and I don't want to have to go through a medical odyssey here if you're just being a coward.
  • [51:54] Mike: Yeah I actually I out here.
  • [51:56] Keith: She should She could use different language around that so that it's not so accusatory, but you know.
  • [52:01] Mike: Um, yeah I would say I Also think I mean you were trying to be kind of toe a line there in terms of what people ought and ought not do I Actually think I think that giving your partner or oral sex is sort of a reasonable expectation. So if you're.
  • [52:14] Keith: Yeah, we've we've been through this one before there's like some things that like are probably not reasonable like a lot of women really just won't do anal and yeah, but you think oral is something that most people should do.
  • [52:18] Mike: Okay.
  • [52:23] Mike: Sure there I agree but oral is like is like I think I I think I think it'd be worth asking this like this is a pretty normal act and so be worth asking like why like what's going on here.
  • [52:36] Keith: Right? right? right? Yeah I mean you know so like just arguing by extremes here if like your partner said like oh I never want to kiss you. It would be like ok well that feels.
  • [52:41] Mike: You know do you have trauma. Do you have something you need to work through. Do you have like like what's going on here.
  • [52:54] Keith: Like a deal breaker. Um, whereas if you said I'm not going to let you shit on my chest that probably doesn't feel like a deal breaker right? So like on both sides. There's things that like everybody sort of agrees 1 is normal and one's abnormal and then as you start moving towards the center and you get.
  • [52:56] Mike: Um, yeah, right, There's certain. Yeah, right? exactly.
  • [53:12] Keith: You know, various different collectively bargained things like you know like some women might be like oh I I Really don't like having sex dogie style and like some men would be like all right? Well, that's a deal breaker but most men would probably be like well okay, that's a little annoying but fine and then.
  • [53:24] Mike: I Sort of feel the same way about that one though and I mean the other one where this comes up somewhat frequently is swallowing nut and you and it's It's a little bit the same thing people will I mean they're these women typically it's women right? because that's I'm frequenting forums that are hetero.
  • [53:31] Keith: Right.
  • [53:44] Mike: Oriented Um, they'll say like it makes them nauseous. It makes them throw up. It makes they hate the texture. They can't stand it. They have all these problems and okay like I believe them I believe that that's what's happening in their experience. But again, it's like.
  • [53:48] Keith: Ok.
  • [54:02] Mike: Your life will be better if you find a way to to improve that. Yeah and you can say you can say oh well, Why does he need that It's like I don't know there's like this menu of sort of normal things and and to be fair, this one's on that list too right? The oral on the woman is on this one. So so if so I would say the same thing to a guy. It's like look you should.
  • [54:07] Keith: Choke it down.
  • [54:16] Keith: Yeah I haven't encountered a woman that wouldn't swallow in a long time.
  • [54:22] Mike: Work on that. You see it on like the sex subreddit somewhat frequently women have these this laundry list of kind of complaints and and they so a lot of them sound medical like nausea I vomit I'm allergic these things that women say and you go Wow That's surprising.
  • [54:27] Keith: You do.
  • [54:44] Mike: Um, I'm sure some sometimes it's true, but it resembles what this guy's saying like this guy's coming up with something sort of medical.
  • [54:52] Keith: Right? Yeah I don't see this ending Well for this woman.
  • [55:01] Mike: Probably not communication difficulties. Yeah.
  • [55:08] Keith: Yeah, and he's being kind of weird um all right. We have 5 minutes here that I have like a topic that I wanted to cover. Maybe if we go bitd over. It's okay, do you have time all right? This person says this is the the top.
  • [55:14] Mike: Okay, sure.
  • [55:25] Keith: The thread is short. Do most girls on the pill let their boyfriend come inside of them. Ah I an eighteen year old female recently started taking the pill and my boyfriend 23 year old male has been really wanting to come inside of me I'm open to it and I know there is always risk but I'm curious how common it is for girls to let their boyfriend come inside of them while on birth control.
  • [55:28] Mike: Who.
  • [55:44] Keith: Or if it is mainly used to avoid condoms and have raw sex. He is my first sexual partner. So I've not been in this situation before um I think almost nobody uses the pill and condoms.
  • [55:50] Mike: Guy.
  • [56:01] Mike: On the on the sex subbred a lot of people too which I've found also kind of intriguing.
  • [56:04] Keith: I know I know the reason why I brought this up was because I started reading some of these comments and you know they're having like 4 condoms and they're using 8 different forms of birth control. It's like okay I mean.
  • [56:13] Mike: Um, yeah.
  • [56:21] Keith: There are people that do that. But I think that's very rare.
  • [56:22] Mike: Yeah I think ah it's okay yeah I Just think there's a lot of virtue signaling that goes on on the internet. Um, and this is a sexual virtue of signaling that people do I'm very skeptical that even I'm even skeptical that the people that say they do it. Do it.
  • [56:41] Keith: Yeah, they might just be synctimoniously.
  • [56:42] Mike: Reliably irregularly.
  • [56:48] Mike: Right? And with with ah with ah somebody who's yeah I mean it comes down to that same thing of like what are you? What are you doing here like what are you trying to? um what are you trying to accomplish and and is it kind of pathological. Ah.
  • [57:04] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [57:04] Mike: Because okay sure if you have okay if you have if you if you're sleeping around. Okay, that's different. There's like an Sti risk. But if you're with the same partner. Okay, you're not actually doing very much by I mean you can get sdi tested and that's probably smarter.
  • [57:17] Keith: Right.
  • [57:22] Mike: And fooling around with condoms anyway, right? Okay, then you need to do birth control all right? So that's a conversation to have but you don't need 2 different forms of birth control. It's strange.
  • [57:30] Keith: Yeah I've long thought that it is weird that people don't have the abortion conversation before having sex because if you've had that conversation which is.
  • [57:41] Mike: 2
  • [57:47] Keith: If you get pregnant would you have an abortion. It really changes the calculus on all this stuff. It's like first of all, um, abortions are physically uncomfortable. Um, but my understanding is they don't.
  • [57:58] Mike: Yes.
  • [58:04] Keith: If you get like a very early abortion by using. For example, plan B Um, they don't really affect your ability to get pregnant later in life. Although maybe people should check the research on that. But let's assume that there's no long term downside risk of getting an abortion. Um say.
  • [58:11] Mike: Okay.
  • [58:23] Keith: Twice in your life I Just think that like if you if you are willing to get an abortion then that does sort of open up various possibilities where you don't need to be necessarily as paranoid about birth control. Um, you know then it just be.
  • [58:39] Mike: Go on.
  • [58:42] Keith: Because if you know you'll get an abortion then if you get pregnant. It's not the end of the world. Yes I would but or 10 right? and it's just not worth panicking about because if you get pregnant, there's still a way out.
  • [58:47] Mike: Um, but you would still suggest someone use a form of birth control just not 2 forms. Okay, what do you? What do you.
  • [59:01] Mike: Sure what do you think? Well I mean very few things in life are worth panicking about. But what do you? Um, what do you? Ah, what do you think the reliability of a woman claiming that she'll have an abortion is is it 90%
  • [59:04] Keith: Fine.
  • [59:16] Keith: Well this is the problem. This is the problem. It would be nice if like you could actually sign a contract. Um and like you you know people would say like oh that's that's kind of ah.
  • [59:17] Mike: For the man that's really important statistic.
  • [59:31] Keith: Unfair to the woman like she might change her mind or whatever. Yeah.
  • [59:34] Mike: Um, it's like a hookup prenup. Can you imagine I mean so I don't I don't really care to I mean I'm I'm pro-choice but like I don't really care about the current furor going around around Rover swage is something I don't spend a lot of time thinking about but I'm broadly pro-choice. Can you imagine.
  • [59:49] Keith: Ah.
  • [59:51] Mike: The lasers that would shoot out the eyes of certain people in congress and so forth if it was possible to sign a contract promising you would abort any kid like it's a murder contract. Can you match and.
  • [01:00:00] Keith: Is that so crazy. Yeah yeah, but yeah, but the opposite the opposite is you're basically demanding that every time any man has sex he concedes that he's playing the lottery that the woman will. Get pregnant or not like she could be lying that she's on Birth control.
  • [01:00:18] Mike: Um, I think that's coherent with the yeah I think that's coherent with the Modal view of like the pro-life person though because they are typically going to be of more like a religious mindset and they'd say look that's tough shit like sex is for marriage et etc, etc et etc. So they yes I think that I think that that would be consonant with what they view but with their views.
  • [01:00:41] Keith: Yes, but I think that ah pro-choice. People would also be irritated that I was saying that like a contract should be considered.
  • [01:00:50] Mike: Um I think only maybe I'm not sure what would the reason be why would they be upset. Oh interesting. Okay, you're yeah, you're actually taking away that Oh yeah I mean look nobody's in okay I see so you're basically you would the end result of what you're advocating for is.
  • [01:00:54] Keith: Because women can change their mind at any time.
  • [01:01:07] Mike: Forced abortion. Yeah, nobody's in favor of that That's kind of funny I see I see where you're going. Yeah so you're yeah okay.
  • [01:01:12] Keith: Um, yeah, but it's not yeah, but you're again, you're looking at it the wrong way, you need to look at it from the other side and the other side is if if a woman can basically decide to drop a baby on a man's lap whenever she wants. That's not.
  • [01:01:24] Mike: Ah.
  • [01:01:29] Mike: Um, yeah, but somebody has to and but like when I know.
  • [01:01:30] Keith: Super fair to 50% of the population either like it's not crazy to make a woman decide before she has sex whether she wants to have a baby or not I agree that that is not currently the way our society works they can decide after they get pregnant whether they want to have a baby or not but making them decide before is not.
  • [01:01:39] Mike: Yet.
  • [01:01:50] Keith: It's not like this terrible imposition. Well yeah.
  • [01:01:51] Mike: Part part of a contract is enforcement right? So allowing that means that somebody would have to be willing to to do a forced abortion which I'm sure I'm confident nobody would do um the thing that you the thing that you coulds.
  • [01:02:02] Keith: Oh my gosh. That's that's that good point. Yes, yeah I don't know how you laid it force it good point.
  • [01:02:08] Mike: I think I think we've talked about this before the thing you could support would be. Ah yeah, you could support economic abortion right? where the man right? he can He can so the the effect of the contract isn't she's forced to abort the child. It's that because they signed this contract before they had sex. She.
  • [01:02:15] Keith: Right? Yeah, the man has no responsibility.
  • [01:02:28] Keith: Right? Yeah I guess I guess I would be Well yeah I mean that's like basically halfway to what I'm suggesting so I would definitely be fine with that.
  • [01:02:28] Mike: Can't ever get any money out of him and he can basically dent deny paternity of the kid. Um, okay I mean that so maybe that but yeah.
  • [01:02:44] Keith: Um, that would never be considered allowed either though. So.
  • [01:02:45] Mike: I Think it's funny that you're so careful to like maybe it's because we're at the end of the episode here. But you're so careful to sort of like step around lightly gently step around the should a person give a blowjob or should that be an expectation or oral or something in ah in relationship and now here here. Like look but forced abortion like that like imagine that you would have to like you'd have to entrap the woman you have to catch her.
  • [01:03:08] Keith: Yeah, yeah, I So meant my entire town and forced her to have an abortion yet. Okay I I guess I I forced to could see that's not ideal. Ah but philosophically philosophically. Um.
  • [01:03:14] Mike: Yeah, right, It's not yeah ah quins funny I mean yeah.
  • [01:03:25] Keith: A man basically has no ah yeah, like your the our current zeitgeist is the man has to play the lottery every time he has sex like there's no way. There's no way he can safely have sex and the and women.
  • [01:03:34] Mike: Right? Which is one of right.
  • [01:03:44] Keith: Can 100% guarantee because a man is can't force you to have a baby a woman can force a man to have a baby but a man can't force a woman to have a baby and so no a man a man a man cannot force a woman to have a baby.
  • [01:03:51] Mike: Wait what I think you just said a man can force a woman to have a bait oh in our current sight geist. You can't right I mean in in in in a state of nature a man could like but in America in the twenty first century a man cannot I got I got I just understanding what you said? okay.
  • [01:04:03] Keith: Well yes. Right? right? Ah, it's so there's like this big asymmetry and I think we mostly have it right here like women should be able to choose and like all that kind of stuff but ah I don't think it's outrageous to ideate around the idea of.
  • [01:04:11] Mike: That's true.
  • [01:04:28] Keith: Ah, a man having some sort of recourse if a woman before they had sex fully says like yes of course I'll get an abortion if we get pregnant and then some some sort of recourse if she changes her mind now I.
  • [01:04:38] Mike: Yeah, some recourse. Yeah.
  • [01:04:44] Keith: For all the reasons you described and and plenty of others I don't think that's practical, but like philosophically it's not like insane to suggest.
  • [01:04:47] Mike: Right. Yeah, Well anyway, this comes down like with the general topic of contraceptives. That's why I asked the question of like what do you think the probability that the woman would follow through in the abortion agreement and keep in mind she might change her mind so she might actually have agreed with the guy that she would have an abortion. In good faith. But then when she gets pregnant. She just she talks to her parents or something and she just doesn't go through with it. Oh No I'm I'm agreeing I'm just I'm just saying this this helps explain why you're.
  • [01:05:13] Keith: Fine but a man could hypothetically change his mind too and and nobody says like oh men should be able to decide whenever they want like nobody says that.
  • [01:05:28] Mike: Sort of principled idea that like having a conversation about abortion can make this easier in a relationship that's sort of true but it's as a guy I don't think I would tell a guy. Oh yeah, totally trust that conversation like the guy should care a lot about contraception and I can see ah a guy being like oh I want.
  • [01:05:40] Keith: Yeah, right? Yeah, just to be clear the reason why this came up in the first place is yeah I think that like reasonable adults like let's say you're having sex with a 33 year old woman and.
  • [01:05:45] Mike: 7 forms because of this issue.
  • [01:05:58] Keith: You know, a lot of women of that age are like really thinking about kids a lot I think it would be cool if it were normalized to say like hey so ah, you know we're probably going to go back to my place tonight like I plan on using a condom and all that but you know just in case, the unthinkable happens like what is your? what would you do? if you got pregnant here.
  • [01:06:00] Mike: Right.
  • [01:06:18] Keith: And if she Hems and haws about that. But then you really should be very careful in a way that you might not if she was like oh I'm ah look obviously I'm not going to like drop a kid on you that that we don't both want and I would I would definitely have an abortion. But that's not going to happen because we're using a condom and I'm on birth control or whatever but like that conversation is never had people never have. It's just sort of like a lottery and I think that's a little bit weird I think adults should have that conversation but I would be insane if I've brought that up.
  • [01:06:44] Mike: Um, yeah, it is a little weird guys. Yeah I understand it would it would be it would it would block you from having sex with a woman is what you're saying. Yeah I think the guy might be better.
  • [01:06:57] Keith: Um, yeah, yes.
  • [01:07:00] Mike: Served just in these early encounters with a new partner just to put his semen in her mouth because remember kids your mouth can't get pregnant. Yeah.
  • [01:07:05] Keith: Yeah, yeah, or use a condom. But yeah that that I mean just one one final thing on this like.
  • [01:07:15] Mike: Yeah.
  • [01:07:19] Keith: I Mean this is exactly the kind of risk that I would like to be mitigated like let's say you decide not to use a condom and you could do that and there's actually a lot of talk on the sex subreddit about how more men should consider that and I agree with it. But like if you have sex with a woman without a condom.
  • [01:07:24] Mike: Have a vasectomy.
  • [01:07:38] Keith: And you think she's on birth control or she told you she's on birth control. But you know there's precom and sometimes whatever something happens it it would just be nice to have had the conversation. Although maybe the effect of this would be that men are just like always coming inside of women.
  • [01:07:46] Mike: Yeah.
  • [01:07:56] Keith: When women don't want that if yeah I don't know this isn't really private. This is more of a thought experiment than anything.
  • [01:07:57] Mike: Yeah I hear you I hear you it's tricky though because this this conversation is not sexy and so a guy is never going to have this conversation with a woman before hooking up because then he he knows that he will decrease his odds by like 80% and that's not.
  • [01:08:10] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [01:08:12] Keith: Yeah, right? No one's going to do that to cover a point one percent risk yeah it's too risky.
  • [01:08:16] Mike: On the agenda right? I mean I maybe you could try it for science once. But even you I think probably would not do that. You'd say right? right. You'd want to least wait till you'd had sex like 3 times to have the conversation or something.
  • [01:08:32] Keith: The way to do it the way to do It would be to bring it up like hypothetically like I get have this conversation right? and then hopefully in the course of this conversation. They would reveal their own thoughts.
  • [01:08:43] Mike: Um, ah.
  • [01:08:48] Mike: But again, you're assuming that That's what they actually think and that's what they would actually do which I would be reluctant to yeah.
  • [01:08:52] Keith: But get there's always that problem. There's always that problem that one they're lying or two that they'll change their mind but still like honestly if you're having sex with people that like you can't get any information out of anything they say because you think they might be lying like maybe you shouldn't be having sex with them. But of course.
  • [01:08:59] Mike: Um I think ah changing their mind I bet is very common.
  • [01:09:12] Keith: That's row 2 Yeah, all right? That'll do it for this episode of your mileage may vary. We cherish feedback especially negative feedback since that's the most actionable. So if you have any hit us up. We pay $10 for any feedback received even if it's short.
  • [01:09:12] Mike: I Think that you just described tinder.
  • [01:09:30] Keith: Ah, we also enjoy listener questions. So if you have any for us the experts fire them away toymmvpod at Gmail.com again, that's y mmvpod at Gmail.com if you'd like us to keep the question private. Just let us know. And we'll definitely honor that we thank you for your listenership and we look forward to catching you next week and your mileage may vary.