YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary Podcast

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Episode 187: Mars Dreams, Breakup Screams, AI Fantasies, Trump’s Legacy, VR Pleasures, Love Lessons, Porn Trends

Team YMMV | 11-15-2024 | 1:04:41

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Keith opens with a hot take on Trump’s America, while Mike finds unexpected humor in Elon Musk’s dreams of Mars. Ally is unimpressed, predicting four years of “dumb news” with a cognitive load she’d rather skip. It’s politics, sex, tech, and a sprinkle of dark comedy.

As the conversation shifts, we hit a deep dive into relationships and breakups. Keith brings a Reddit post on moving on from an ex, sparking a fiery debate. Mike likens it to Mein Kampf, and somehow Hitler’s love life becomes a point of speculation. The trio pokes fun, but there's a hint of truth in their banter about love, betrayal, and the bitter art of letting go.

Then, it’s onto the porn rabbit hole. Keith shares his paid-for porn adventures and the disturbing allure of AI-generated nudity. Mike gets philosophical, asking if infinite access to virtual sex will change the world – or just take men out of it. Ally, as ever, has a bone to pick, wondering if this shift could finally tip the scales in favor of women running society. It’s porn, politics, and the future of humanity in one messy, strangely insightful package.

Finally, they wonder: what will happen when everyone can make movies from scripts with a click? Mike envisions a world where we can create our own fantasies, from romantic sagas to Hollywood-level action. But Keith isn’t so sure – he predicts that AI-driven entertainment will soon overshadow everything we know.

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00:01] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is often controversial, but mostly in good faith. I'm Keith, my co-hosts are Ali and Mike and guys is America great again?
[00:00:13] Mike: Yes.
[00:00:16] Keith: That's Trump and vice president, Ilania. I heard that joke today. I thought that was pretty good.
[00:00:23] Mike: Isn't that the first lady then?
[00:00:25] Keith: No, the first lady ah lady is Melania, the, the,
[00:00:27] Mike: No, I know, but wouldn't you, if you're going to do it that way, you should say he's like the first gentleman, which I think it would go along with the notion that he's become a part of the Trump family recently.
[00:00:36] Keith: Yeah, I guess the joke is the joke is trying to like, effeminate Elon by calling him First Lady.
[00:00:38] Ally: That's a better joke.
[00:00:44] Mike: Yeah. the he ah He's being very smart ah because um he is going to get the maximum bang for us. Look, the all the man wants is to send people to Mars and this is going to enable him to blow up more rockets and sort of like have a chance of killing someone on the trip or on Mars, which I actually am looking forward to. Like I actually think that'll be I think it would be really interesting if there was just and was's just a core a corpse orbiting orbiting Mars.
[00:01:17] Ally: This is just going to be such a dumb four years. like I'm not surprised that he was elected, but I'm disappointed just because like now I have to put up with dumb news again.
[00:01:26] Keith: Yeah, there's a high cognitive load to a Trump presidency.
[00:01:29] Ally: yeah
[00:01:31] Mike: I like it. I think it's ah funnier. It's more amusing.
[00:01:35] Keith: what What policy of his are you most scared of, Ali?
[00:01:35] Mike: and
[00:01:42] Ally: um I think his defense policy.
[00:01:46] Keith: Yeah.
[00:01:48] Ally: So I think that he's going to antagonize China, not support our NATO allies. I think he's going to probably reduce funding to Ukraine.
[00:02:02] Ally: Russia is going to continue their land expansion. like I think it's going to ultimately be bad for global security.
[00:02:11] Keith: Do you think that the United States is current? We don't have to do this for too much longer here. We can talk about that. But do you think that ah the Biden or Harris administration would be likely to prosecute a war successfully in Ukraine and cost effectively?
[00:02:30] Mike: the Biden administration?
[00:02:30] Ally: I think biden Biden was supporting weapons to Ukraine, so I think he would continue to
[00:02:34] Keith: Yes. I mean, if Biden hadn't sat down and he was reelected or Harris was elected. So going forward, do you think that a hide and ah Biden led or Harris led administration would successfully prosecute the war in Ukraine?
[00:02:48] Ally: but don't you mean by prosecute? like I don't think we were ever going to send US troops like to fight the war for them. I think we were going to continue sending weapons and sending funds under Harris.
[00:02:58] Keith: By prosecute, I mean, have a chance of winning in a meaningful way.
[00:03:04] Ally: Yeah, Russia's losses are increasing. um They have brought in North Korean troops and they're promising them like a shit ton of rice, like we talked about last time. I think that they are in a bad position and that if they kept going like this for another year, they would withdraw.
[00:03:24] Keith: hu I'm not sure. I actually don't know. I i i would have some concern, with ah so i but I officially did not vote for Trump, but my concern of the Biden or Harris strategy is that another year would go by, another 80 billion would be sent, and there wouldn't be Yeah. And then ah basically Russia would somehow outlast the United States, no matter what happens, unless they materially step up things like maybe put American troops on the ground. And so it would just be more money gone with the same result, which is in my mind, probably the Russians will keep the Donbas and like other, you know, Eastern regions of Ukraine and then and some sort of, you know, ah negotiation that nobody's happy with will eventually happen. But I don't know. ah I'm not, I'm not sure.
[00:04:13] Mike: can i Can I say something here? so when Whenever you hear about some some entity, ah some other country, an entity that you would expect to be able have access to smart people. i mean The Russians legendarily have very good chess players. They've got smart people over there.
[00:04:33] Mike: Whenever you hear an empty and nobody can explain why the entity is doing something in any sort of satisfactory way, ah that's sort of problematic. um so Russia took Crimea to get a warm water port, which is like, so you go, okay, that that makes sense. like There's a thing they're trying to get there.
[00:04:49] Mike: ah i don't i haven't ah heard a satisfactory explanation for why, like a concrete explanation for why they invaded other parts of Ukraine, um ah other than things like Putin's crazy, ah that he wants some kind of ah he wants to reform the USSR. He wants to have a buffer with NATO. He's mad because they're going to put NATO. None of those sort of concretely makes a whole lot of sense to me.
[00:05:14] Mike: So, I think the explanation that makes the most sense is that he knows that he can enter into this war of attrition with the US, waste a lot of the US's money, ah radicalize the US, like get someone like Donald Trump elected, and at the same time raise the price of natural gas so he's actually making more money. And all he has to do is basically sacrifice a bunch of people to do it. And we don't even even know exactly how many people they've lost. I mean, we have estimates, but like it's not like they so send us lists of names or anything.
[00:05:42] Mike: But the thing we have done is spent like hundreds of billions of dollars over there. So if that's his goal, he's winning.
[00:05:50] Ally: I don't think he know he needs to have a rational goal.
[00:05:50] Keith: ah Yeah. Okay. We should move on. But do you want to say one more thing, Ali? And then I'll say one more thing and then we'll move on.
[00:05:56] Ally: or like I don't think Putin needs to have a rational goal or you know it could be that he's interested in doing one of those things, but he's also pridefully interested in reclaiming land and interesting and interested in you having ah a successor that he appoints and interested in like securing more power.
[00:06:14] Ally: like he It doesn't have to be purely economically rational. like The guy's not himself a genius. I don't know.
[00:06:22] Keith: Okay.
[00:06:22] Mike: Yeah, i think that's I think the history of international relations suggests that that's wrong, that actually people have objectives.
[00:06:27] Keith: Guys, we gotta, this is the, yeah, we need to cut this or stop.
[00:06:28] Mike: Sure.
[00:06:30] Keith: um Yeah, just one final thing. I just don't know that a Biden-Harris campaign has a better theory of what's going on over there. And I think the most likely outcome is they would spend a bunch more money and the result would be the same.
[00:06:41] Keith: All right, next. um Do you think scissoring works in any meaningful way?
[00:06:50] Ally: That works for what? like um
[00:06:52] Keith: Like, can women actually orgasm from scissoring? And ah yeah, well, ah I mean, why wouldn't it be be able to work with another man?
[00:06:56] Mike: with another woman?
[00:07:03] Mike: Because the man has a protuberance there that would, I mean, he could, she could do it on his leg or something, but the real question is like, do you, could you imagine, like, how would you position your body if you were trying to do a clitoral, clit to clit contact with another woman to actually satisfy herself?
[00:07:06] Keith: I see, get in the way.
[00:07:18] Mike: Like, is that plausible? Or are you just like, yeah, this would never work?
[00:07:22] Ally: It wouldn't work for me, but I'm probably not the most representative sample here because like i I have heard that women can orgasm from you know like humping the side of a couch or something or like humping a pillow.
[00:07:34] Ally: And so if they can come from, I don't know, i I'm built different.
[00:07:35] Mike: Why can't you?
[00:07:39] Mike: Have you tried?
[00:07:39] Ally: but i mean like
[00:07:39] Keith: I think Ali is right that there are some women that given access to sort of the proper pressure on their clit can generally orgasm. And then I think there's some women that require a little bit more specific types of pressure or vibration or strength or whatever.
[00:07:58] Ally: Yeah. So I mean, if a woman can come from humping a couch cushion, can she come from humping another woman? Like, yeah, I think those would be similar, like, experiences, but I'm not one of those people.
[00:08:09] Ally: Like, I've heard that people can come from, like, using a shower head on their genital area. And like, I know that that doesn't work and wouldn't work for me, but I don't
[00:08:21] Mike: We'll wait, so you tried it?
[00:08:23] Ally: Yeah, like with a handheld shower hat, I've tried seeing like what does that feel like. It doesn't feel anything sexual. It just feels like I'm cleaning my genitals. It doesn't feel bad, but it's like it's not going to get me there. But for some people, I guess it does.
[00:08:36] Mike: can you mean Can you introspect into what the, I mean, so I assume when you tried this, you've spread your labia. Maybe you have a more ah thick labia that sort of make it so you have to kind of,
[00:08:47] Mike: I don't know. how how how would you judge judge the piist of your okay and
[00:08:48] Ally: I've tried it all up in there. But like it's just yeah it's it's not targeted. It's not the right kind of pressure. it yeah it's It's just like not the right sensation.
[00:08:59] Ally: But I mean like i can also try like you know grinding against something. And it's like maybe there are certain situations where that would feel kind of good. But I know it's not going to get me to orgasm. But like i I don't disbelieve that there are women for whom it does.
[00:09:12] Ally: And maybe those women do better with lesbian grinding also.
[00:09:15] Keith: Yeah right.
[00:09:18] Mike: Okay. Have you, have you ever gotten any, ah um but just because it's analogous, have you ever gotten any pleasure from, and this is something that Keith enjoys having done to him, having, from sitting on a man's face?
[00:09:27] Keith: Hold on.
[00:09:30] Ally: No, but that's because of my dislike of oral.
[00:09:34] Mike: Right. Right. So it's not gonna, that's not gonna satisfy you. There was a, there was, by the way, a woman on ah Reddit, or maybe it was a man, there was somebody on the sex subreddit who was complaining because
[00:09:39] Ally: Yeah.
[00:09:46] Mike: the ah It been the woman complaining because her boyfriend gets the scent of her genitals, ah you know her vagina in his mouth, and then she wants him to like go do mouthwash and like brush his teeth and stuff like that. Is that a separate issue that you have?
[00:10:01] Mike: like actually
[00:10:01] Ally: Hmm.
[00:10:06] Ally: Well, I mean, I i don't let a guy go down on me anyway, so it doesn't, that doesn't happen, I guess.
[00:10:13] Mike: right
[00:10:14] Ally: I mean, I think if I were to, yes, that would bother me.
[00:10:19] Mike: Okay.
[00:10:22] Keith: Yeah, I mean, insight here.
[00:10:22] Mike: So we're not going to get any trip, tripping, uh, tripping or scissoring, uh, detail from Allie. I was just curious what the, yeah, what the positioning like that would likely work. I, my suspicion is it never works, but maybe it does.
[00:10:33] Mike: I don't know.
[00:10:33] Ally: I also hadn't heard of tripping before you put it on the list of topics and I Googled it.
[00:10:40] Keith: Yeah, it's just the more formal name for scissoring.
[00:10:43] Ally: ah
[00:10:45] Mike: It's the one women use on Reddit frequently.
[00:10:47] Keith: Yeah, OK. That doesn't make it any less.
[00:10:49] Mike: It's probably the Gen Z word. I'm pretty up on Gen Z terminology, so.
[00:10:53] Keith: is Is scissoring on woke for some reason? Like it's ah it's too ableist or something?
[00:10:56] Mike: Probably.
[00:11:03] Mike: Or it suggests like that their vagina could cut something off, cut off of like, I don't know.
[00:11:03] Keith: um
[00:11:08] Ally: Mm.
[00:11:10] Keith: Yeah.
[00:11:11] Ally: It presumes the existence of papering and rocking. What are those?
[00:11:15] Keith: i I think the answer to this the scissoring question is similar to the answer to the orgasming from PIV sex. like If you can orgasm from having general pressure applied to your clit, um then you can probably orgasm from from scissoring or from PIV. But if you need more specific, more fine-tuned pressure or whatever it is, then you probably can't. and so
[00:11:42] Mike: this is this is sort of a i mean it's i think This is more pronounced among women. There's differences in how um how they get to orgasm because obviously the male orgasm is more important for the propagation of the species.
[00:11:54] Mike: But you do see, for example, videos of men ah orgasming from like a vibrator being applied to the their frenalum, the underside of the head of their cock.
[00:12:05] Mike: ah and I've also seen videos of men using a shower head on their cock and and and orgasming. I think that's more rare.
[00:12:11] Ally: Have you tried that?
[00:12:13] Mike: I have. i've tried Of course, all men have tried all of these things ah for the most part.
[00:12:17] Ally: So does the shower head work for you?
[00:12:17] Mike: Men are going to try anything.
[00:12:18] Keith: you know
[00:12:20] Mike: Actually, no. and like The thing you described speaks to me completely.
[00:12:21] Ally: OK.
[00:12:22] Mike: It feels like you're cleaning your dental. It's just completely not sexual. It's really hard to get any sexual feeling there.
[00:12:25] Keith: Yeah, same.
[00:12:27] Mike: and so maybe yummy like yeah and the The pattern of what you want more resembles what works for most men, I think, of like needing a certain kind of stroking stimulation of the appropriate gland.
[00:12:42] Mike: So it makes sense to me. And I have tried that.
[00:12:43] Ally: But yeah, like maybe.
[00:12:44] Mike: I've got a vibrator. It doesn't do anything.
[00:12:45] Ally: Yeah, if like I guess if two men did the the tripping position like that might work, right?
[00:12:53] Mike: Well, there are different ways that you can do that. So, um, Oh God, I'm going to blank on the name, but there's a thing that gay guys can do where they, maybe Keith can remember the name where if, if they have four skins, they can, they can stick their penis, his head to head and then kind of get the four, what's it called?
[00:13:06] Keith: knocking Docking.
[00:13:09] Mike: Yeah, docking, right. And they can sort of rub the foreskin back and forth between their penises and so they can do that. And then I've also seen plenty of videos. I mean, there's usually a woman involved, but plenty of videos where two guys' penises are lengthwise alongside each other and then masturbated in tandem.
[00:13:25] Mike: And like, you know, you can have a premise where like you both try to orgasm simultaneously, which is obviously kind of gross from my perspective. It's kind of gross. I don't like to see that.
[00:13:33] Ally: Is it like one guy's foreskin goes over the other guy's foreskin or like?
[00:13:36] Mike: You're worrying about the docking. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the foreskin can actually go back and forth, right? So you sort of as you know, it would be more like they roll back and forth.
[00:13:42] Ally: Yeah, I was wondering like topologically like is it like having two Ziploc bags and like one is inside the other like.
[00:13:52] Mike: And so as one is being rolled back toward the man's pubic bone, the other guy's foreskin is rolling over the head of his cock and then back the other direction.
[00:13:56] Ally: Okay.
[00:14:00] Mike: You can find videos of this. It's the problem with it is it's gay men having sex. And so I know it's not my favorite thing, but maybe you Maybe it's your thing, you'd like it. And then when they when they when an orgasm happens, like the nut just, its in my view, is not great, what happens. Seaman's just everywhere.
[00:14:18] Keith: Yeah, I basically share all of Mike's anthropological discoveries there. It's not great during, and it's certainly not great at the end.
[00:14:24] Ally: but
[00:14:26] Keith: um But you'll be better for having seen it.
[00:14:28] Mike: yeah the you know Interacting with another guy's Yeah, interacting with another guy's semen is not like there's a very I've actually noticed an uptick in porn being posted at least on Reddit of men having sex with women that have already have been come in. So using the last man's semen as lube. And I really always find that revolting. It's not I don't it's it it doesn't work for me like it really bothers me that some other guy's semen is now being used to rub over the guy's cock.
[00:14:57] Keith: Yeah, I don't know if there's been an uptick or if I'm just getting deeper into the rabbit hole in my explorations, but I've had this, I feel like it.
[00:15:03] Mike: Are you seeing that more too?
[00:15:05] Keith: Yeah.
[00:15:06] Mike: Yeah, I think people are the other looking for more outlandish things. Maybe, maybe as a response to the election.
[00:15:11] Keith: This is, this is a good segue to my, no, it's been a more general trend over a longer period, but, um, are you guys familiar?
[00:15:17] Mike: That's right.
[00:15:20] Keith: I'm sure Ali's not, but Mike, are you familiar with porn MD.com?
[00:15:24] Mike: No.
[00:15:24] Keith: So it is a search it is a search engine aggregator.
[00:15:25] Mike: Wow.
[00:15:28] Keith: So it searches X videos and Pornhub and U-Porn and so all the major tube sites and aggregates the results into one search results page.
[00:15:43] Keith: And I've been using it for a long time. It's it's pretty good if you know what you're looking for. and ah You can sort by video length, which I like i written mentioned in the past. I don't like short videos because I feel like I'm racing against the clock to get to where I need to go. um And you can sort there's a few other you can sort by quality, so include only HD videos and so forth. but Um, they've always had this thing where they return premium videos and they're usually kind of the ones that I would be most likely to click on, but um I'm not going to pay. So I noticed that the premium ones always go to the same site and it's the site XNXX.gold and yeah.gold. And I decided to pay for it this week. yeah It's been like a revelation. They, they have like all of the major.
[00:16:39] Keith: ah You know, porn production companies, there's one big one that owns like 30 of them. and And before we went on air, I said I wanted to find a list because I want like examples of some of the.
[00:16:55] Keith: various porn series they have and I don't want to say like one or two because then people are going to think those are the one or two that I'm most obsessed with. I couldn't find a list so you guys and the listeners are just going to have to take it for granted that they they have like a very large library of professionally produced full-length porn.
[00:17:03] Mike: so
[00:17:13] Keith: And it is the normal thing when you try to sign up for a porn site, which I'm guessing maybe none, neither of you guys have ever done.
[00:17:19] Mike: Oh,
[00:17:19] Keith: Mike, I bet you're constitutionally opposed to paying for porn and Ali, you would.
[00:17:22] Mike: ah for sure.
[00:17:23] Keith: Yeah, you wouldn't do it. So yeah, I don't care. I'm, you know, i I like to experiment. I've, you know, paid for only fans and yeah, if it's something's out there that can make my porn searching. ah faster, i'm I'm here for it. So anyway, it is the normal thing when you try to sign up for a porn site where, you know, the initial offer is like, you know, a three day trial for, for 99 cents, and then it, you know, bills yearly at $300 or something. And then, you know, the the second option will be a bit better. It'll be like, you know, $49.99 a month. They really have people, you know, metaphorically buy the balls here when they're, but
[00:17:58] Keith: If you get halfway through the purchase process and then back out, it'll say like, oh, one final offer. And the final offer is like $10 a month or something. It's something completely reasonable. So in any case, I got their 9.99 deal and, uh, yeah, this week has been a good week of masturbation, just like all this easy to find fresh new content.
[00:18:17] Keith: Now maybe I'll exhaust this vein at some point, but it's been a good week.
[00:18:22] Mike: can you I mean, can you speak to, I understood your point about not wanting to,
[00:18:27] Keith: Yeah.
[00:18:27] Mike: Talk about specific performers that you like, but what I want to understand is like generally Okay, so there's there's this um Complaint that people have which is that it's and it's a very valid complaint there with there some time ago And I don't it was a few years ago like three years ago four years ago Pornhub basically eliminated all of the porn they had and a number of the sites did That they where they couldn't identify the source of the porn and that eliminated a lot of very good content
[00:18:47] Keith: Yeah.
[00:18:51] Keith: Yeah. Amateur. Yeah.
[00:18:54] Mike: Yeah, so, well, I mean, like it's amateurish, right? It's like it's stuff where they it's not big enough studio that it could be validated.
[00:19:00] Keith: Verified.
[00:19:00] Mike: how How does this, yeah, verified, how does this stuff stack on that axis?
[00:19:00] Keith: Yeah.
[00:19:05] Mike: Like, is it all pretty professional porn with the feet, fe footish scene always in the middle of every porn or how does it look?
[00:19:06] Keith: yeah
[00:19:12] Keith: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like I'm aware that you really don't like professionally produced porn. ah the vast majority but yeah The vast majority of this has the issue that you have with professionally produced porn where if you if you really put your thinking hat on, it's obvious that these women are not, um they're acting.
[00:19:19] Mike: If it looks professional, yeah.
[00:19:34] Mike: Right.
[00:19:35] Keith: So, you know, they're like moaning excessively and they are really enjoying, you know, being tit-fucked and, you know,
[00:19:41] Mike: And if you pay attention, you notice it's the same guy fucking like seven different women in different videos.
[00:19:45] Keith: Yes, I am.
[00:19:46] Mike: You're like, wait a minute.
[00:19:47] Keith: It's the same. I feel like I know like the top, you know, 12 male porn stars because I just keep seeing the same dudes over and over. In fact, I think I probably have ones I like better than others.
[00:19:56] Mike: Right.
[00:19:59] Keith: um
[00:20:00] Mike: How would you make that judgment just based on the women they like or?
[00:20:03] Keith: um but No, no, I don't think they choose.
[00:20:05] Mike: Body hair, semen quantity, semen consistency.
[00:20:05] Keith: and um Yes, I just like some other style better than others. I don't know. I'm not sure. i don't know I don't know what it is.
[00:20:16] Keith: but maybe i yeah I'm not sure.
[00:20:16] Mike: Yeah.
[00:20:18] Keith: I don't like the way some of them look or something.
[00:20:18] Mike: but since But since your goal is typically more just to find hyper attractive new novel women like this works for you.
[00:20:24] Keith: Yeah. So what often happens is one of these porn stars shows up on the scene and then, you know, she goes to all of the major companies and does a scene with all of them. And slowly those will leak out to to the free areas of of Pornhub or, you know, other tube sites. But this is like going straight to the source. Um, but maybe I'm just fast forwarding everything six months. I'm not sure.
[00:20:50] Mike: Yeah, I mean, I think that may be the future. This may be generally the future of porn. You have OnlyFans, you have this, there are a number of pay sites. For VR porn, ah it's much harder to find it if you don't pay.
[00:21:03] Mike: So yeah, I mean.
[00:21:03] Ally: Yeah, like is there AI-generated porn that you think is good yet?
[00:21:07] Keith: No.
[00:21:07] Mike: Well, Keith, you sent, yeah.
[00:21:08] Keith: Oh, yeah. So two things on that. Yeah. So let's, let's get to the thing I sent you in a minute, Mike, but there are websites now where you can upload a photo and it will neutify it. So you can upload a ah photo of your eighth grade classmates and it'll do the thing that you really would wish was not available to eighth graders.
[00:21:26] Keith: And there've been problems where like eighth graders have been doing this and then like posting it on like, you know, their eighth grade, eighth graders Slack. And, you know, it's just boys fucking around, but, you know, this is, you know, arguably kitty porn. And so there's ethical issues around that. But yeah, the the way with I guess the founders of these companies were intending it would be used is you would upload pictures of celebrities or adult people that you know and then keep it to your private self. But yeah, there's some.
[00:21:53] Mike: It's hard to stop that. I can tell a quick story here that but in college, we had a problem of, I mean, this is a long time ago, but people people doing this with porn, ah there was a particular series of people eating shit that people would pass around, but then they then the university sort of cracked down via the email system. They're like, look, if you're not, don't use it for this stuff. But then people would just print out the shit eater porn and put it on like the drinking fountain.
[00:22:18] Mike: So there's really no stopping it. And I imagine in eighth grade, it's the same thing. I mean, like, let's say the the cheerleader that everybody wants to fuck.
[00:22:21] Keith: Yeah.
[00:22:23] Mike: I mean, like, yeah, if you can print out a picture of her getting railed by somebody and just put it everywhere, like, how could you even stop that?
[00:22:31] Keith: Right. Well, in eighth graders don't have the sophistication to know what boundaries are. Um, they're, they're getting there and with education, you can try to do that, but you know, there's going to be some bad apples and it, yeah, it's a problem.
[00:22:44] Mike: You view it as a,
[00:22:44] Keith: The New York Times has done a couple stories on this.
[00:22:46] Mike: I actually view it as kind of a positive thing. You see it as negative though.
[00:22:50] Keith: What's it?
[00:22:52] Mike: ah The ability to ah put women into these sexual situations using AI, I think it's sort of positive.
[00:22:59] Keith: I think it's a positive for men. ah I think it probably is 100% negative for women. and they data It increases the objectification and it decreases their sexual currency, both of which are not good for an individual woman.
[00:23:09] Mike: You think so? You don't think it's like, ah
[00:23:18] Mike: Well, I mean, it's not accurate. OK. I mean, my thought was that it kind of de-stigmatizes. Like it just once the world's awash in this stuff, it's kind of over. It's like, OK, so you made, you know, porn of this and then you can make porn of the guys and whatever.
[00:23:30] Mike: It's just it's a little bit like.
[00:23:31] Keith: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:23:31] Ally: I'm just curious, do you think that like the image AI is good, that the video AI is not yet good, or you just haven't seen videos that work?
[00:23:39] Keith: yeah There is some video AI stuff.
[00:23:39] Ally: and
[00:23:42] Keith: It's not very good yet. It feels like it's like pasting the head on, on, you know, a mold. It's, but I mean, look, that's going to get better in months, not years.
[00:23:51] Mike: Right.
[00:23:56] Keith: Um, it's all coming.
[00:23:56] Mike: Yeah, I have actually seen videos. I've seen videos where it wasn't, it wasn't trying to emulate a person. It just looked like, so they just made an artificial person. And it took me a minute to figure out it was fake.
[00:24:08] Mike: Not like a long time, but it took like 20 seconds or 10 seconds or something. I was suspicious at the beginning, but I wasn't positive.
[00:24:11] Keith: Yeah.
[00:24:13] Mike: And then you go, okay.
[00:24:14] Keith: I'm actually OK with animated porn, too. like I can be aroused by animated porn. So it it actually doesn't need to be photorealistic.
[00:24:25] Keith: A lot of it now is sort of in that uncanny valley, where it's like in between being photorealistic and seeming really fake. And so that's not great. But ah yeah.
[00:24:35] Mike: but Keith, we can agree, i mean yeah you guys might have takes on this, but i mean we can agree that you're on like a slope here that's down up or down, doesn't matter, where at some point in the future, all of this stuff will be automated.
[00:24:46] Mike: so When you talk about women's sexual currency, et cetera, et cetera, you're going to be able to generate unlimited porn.
[00:24:50] Ally: Mm hmm.
[00:24:53] Mike: You won't need porn stars. right i mean that's That's definitely on the way.
[00:24:58] Keith: Yeah, I mean, you're, you're using the future tense here, but like, I think there's probably a greater than 50% chance that in three years or less, all generated porn will be better than anything I can find right now.
[00:24:58] Mike: i mean i even
[00:25:13] Mike: Could be three years, I mean, yeah.
[00:25:13] Keith: And, you know, maybe it, maybe it'll be five years, but like it's coming and it's coming super soon.
[00:25:19] Mike: Yeah, I saw an article about a tool that purported to be able to make a movie from a script you created, and I was like, oh, this is kind of fun because I think I could come up with some odd, unusual scripts that I would never want to pay to have people act out, but I might be interested to do that way.
[00:25:34] Keith: Yep.
[00:25:35] Mike: But I was unable to actually do it. I tried. I basically created a little script and I tried to find the tool and get it to work, but I couldn't yet. But i but my um my guess is in you know some some small number of years, this is not for porn.
[00:25:45] Mike: This is just like you'll be able to basically write a script that describes the characters, has the lines and so forth, the setting, and it'll just do it.
[00:25:49] Keith: Yeah.
[00:25:52] Mike: And it'll be it'll it'll be good enough that you could have fun with it and make a reasonable movie.
[00:25:52] Keith: Right.
[00:25:58] Keith: That's where it will start, Mike. And then two years later, it will be better than any Hollywood movie ever made. Like that's the way these things work.
[00:26:03] Mike: Sure. Well, it would all it'll always be harder to, you know, it would require a professional to guide it to make. Oh, maybe you're right. Maybe at some point it won't even require a professional.
[00:26:10] Keith: at At first it would require a professional. I mean, it was like, you remember when the first chess computers came out?
[00:26:13] Mike: That's true.
[00:26:15] Keith: ah A human plus the chess computer would be better than just the chess computer alone. And then eventually the human slows down the best chess computers and the the human gets worked out.
[00:26:23] Mike: Right. Right.
[00:26:24] Keith: And it'll be the same with this. I just don't know the timelines of each thing, but i'm of course I'm very bullish on these things. so
[00:26:30] Mike: Yeah, it's interesting and it's an interesting fact in my view that probably one of the lowest hanging fruit for the AI ah destruction of employment that's coming will actually be sex workers, particularly camp camp girls, porn, like there's a whole, well, I mean, I looked it up just to verify it and it's 2% of women under a certain age or have OnlyFans accounts and like it gets, the number gets bigger if you go beyond OnlyFans and so forth.
[00:26:45] Keith: Yeah.
[00:26:45] Ally: Mm hmm.
[00:26:54] Mike: So there's actually a substantial percentage of the economy built in this that's made up of this stuff.
[00:26:56] Keith: Huh. Maybe this is a good time to pivot to that thing that I sent you earlier.
[00:27:02] Mike: Sure.
[00:27:03] Keith: um Yeah, I don't know why I didn't send it to you, Ali, but it was a Reddit post where Somebody has a, uh, what is the, uh, Apple vision pro is that what it's called?
[00:27:17] Mike: Apple Vision Pro, and there's an there I will say there's an equivalent one from Facebook, which I actually bought because it's not very expensive.
[00:27:22] Keith: Okay. The Oculus three or whatever.
[00:27:23] Mike: and it yeah and the main thing it's like yeah they have they It's the lower end one, but the main thing about these devices is that they you can put it on and it, you can see the world around you.
[00:27:34] Mike: Like it basically has cameras on the front so you can see and you can then walk around and do things.
[00:27:35] Ally: Hmm. Hmm.
[00:27:38] Mike: And like I tried i tried with the Oculus one playing that one of the standard things is can you play ping pong and I tried it and you can, meaning it's fast enough. It gets the data to your eyes fast enough that you can correctly play ping pong.
[00:27:48] Keith: Whoa, that is almost unbelievable.
[00:27:50] Mike: Um, yes, you can find videos of it online and I, and I, and I tried it.
[00:27:52] Keith: Are you sure?
[00:27:54] Keith: Because see but it's even with 20 millisecond latency, which is, you know, a 50th of a second, you know, it's.
[00:27:56] Mike: So
[00:28:00] Mike: I'm not a umm not a professional ping pong player. So yeah, I hear you.
[00:28:03] Ally: but
[00:28:04] Mike: like There's probably a point where it would not be good, but I was able to play credibly, ah do other activities.
[00:28:04] Keith: Sure.
[00:28:07] Keith: Interesting. Okay.
[00:28:09] Mike: like I shot some baskets with a basketball hoop and stuff like that. It was fine.
[00:28:12] Keith: Okay.
[00:28:12] Mike: um But anyway, the the other thing that obviously enables you to do then is put like overlay crap into the environment, which is, I think, what you're going to talk about.
[00:28:19] Keith: I did see some pictures on the San Francisco subreddit when the Apple vision pro first came out of people driving while wearing the vision pro. So it's at least possible to try um you see black.
[00:28:27] Mike: Yep. I mean, the risk there is, Well, but the risk there is like, what if it, you know, crashes? Like what if the, the offeror crashes and you're just, cause yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, you, you, you think you're, you, you completely fools your brain.
[00:28:37] Keith: Right.
[00:28:40] Mike: You're walking around, but then it goes black. And I've had that.
[00:28:42] Keith: Right.
[00:28:43] Mike: I tried that also with the Oculus one and yeah, it's pretty odd.
[00:28:45] Keith: Right. Okay. So, all right. There's these different VR headsets you can wear and most of them now have an AR, which is augmented reality feature where they have a camera on the front that they can project onto your eyes. So you can see the world around you. This thing I sent Mike earlier today, someone puts on one of these headsets and they have a Tenga egg, which is one of these masturbation sleeves attached to some sort of motor that can pull it up and down. Um.
[00:29:12] Keith: So you can stick your dick in it. And then instead of using your hand, this device would sort of stroke it for you.
[00:29:16] Ally: Hmm. Hmm.
[00:29:19] Keith: And they had built some software so that in their augmented reality, they're seeing a girl. And this girl is basically, I don't know if she was jerking him off or if ah he was sleeping with or if he was like fucking her vagina in this augmented reality.
[00:29:37] Keith: but Look, it's just a very early prototype of something that I think is just gonna get better and better over the coming months and years, which is, yeah, like virtual sex will be, ah you know, pretty good.
[00:29:51] Ally: I mean, do you think that will be good for men generally?
[00:29:58] Keith: Well, good for. You know, is fentanyl good for men? I mean, it it certainly puts you into a permanent euphoric state, if that's what you want to do. And so it, yeah, it could be like the matrix where like nobody ever wants to leave and like, it's really bad for society in general, but like it's, if like having, if like having a short term best experiences, your goal.
[00:30:19] Keith: Yeah. Like taking fentanyl is probably the quickest way to get through like maximum euphoria.
[00:30:22] Ally: Yeah. I mean like I think it could be fun for society because as you know I want women to be in charge of everything and if we can just like one shot like 20% of men and they just drop out of society because they don't need to participate anymore that'd be amazing.
[00:30:28] Keith: Well, all the men are in the right. Right. They're, they're, they're like nest of Victoria matrix.
[00:30:36] Ally: Yeah, yeah.
[00:30:37] Keith: Yeah. Yeah. Um.
[00:30:39] Mike: yeah I don't think that would work the way you think it would, because I think my guess is that the, or the way you hope it would. i First of all, I think that ah replicating what males want out of intergender relationships is much simpler than it is for replicating what females want. And so I suspect that, yeah, it'll, it'll ah so like you said, it will one shot men out of the relationship game. But the problem with that for women is that it will put women into like a psycho psychological state where I'm not sure they're going to be running everything, I mean, or they won't go well, because they'll be in this.
[00:31:11] Ally: No, I just mean like it'll it'll cause like some percentage of men to just like drop out of society and like become misterbatory, hikikomori, or whatever, and there'll be more room for women to take over whatever jobs that they would otherwise would have had.
[00:31:12] Mike: place i
[00:31:23] Mike: Yeah, but the issue is that women, women who have no possibility of a life partner are not going to be stable. It's going to be problematic.
[00:31:31] Ally: Well, maybe we'll just have more lesbians. like Women's sexuality is more fluid, right? Women are more easily able to become lesbians.
[00:31:36] Keith: Why don't you just become a lesbian then?
[00:31:39] Mike: Yeah, why don't you become a lesbian?
[00:31:39] Ally: im It's difficult for me. I think I'm you know i'm like on the one side of the distribution.
[00:31:43] Keith: You're enlightened.
[00:31:45] Ally: i've If I could, I would. I've definitely you know tried to, I don't know, hypnotize myself into doing it or whatever. like i I don't think it works.
[00:31:53] Keith: ah right and yeah Can we double click on this, please?
[00:31:53] Mike: Wait, wait, how far is this gone?
[00:31:53] Ally: ah
[00:31:58] Mike: Yeah, what?
[00:31:58] Ally: Well, like, you know, every once in a while I will think about it and I'll be like, is there any possibility that I could have like latent lesbianism that I could, you know, encourage? And I just don't think there is like, there's nothing about it that turns me on. But I do try to like explore it in my head because I think it would be so much easier.
[00:32:16] Mike: Okay, so you've never tried having sex with a woman.
[00:32:20] Ally: No, but like i you know you isn't the first step being like, oh, you know like could I fantasize about a woman?
[00:32:27] Keith: Yeah, I agree with Ali's intuition here.
[00:32:27] Ally: And the answer is no. And then it's like, well.
[00:32:30] Keith: Like that's not how it works. You can't just like try, I can't just try to fuck a man and see if I like it. I think it has to be more like the prison scenario where like I'm in prison for six months. I've seen nothing but other men.
[00:32:41] Keith: I'm like getting more and more desperate and more and more exploratory.
[00:32:44] Ally: you know I have to go to women's prison.
[00:32:44] Keith: So if you really wanted to give it a go, Ali, you would have to like move into a cave. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:32:50] Ally: No, I think being in prison would be worse than being heterosexual.
[00:32:55] Keith: I do too.
[00:32:56] Mike: Is that, is that what you think happens in prison?
[00:32:56] Keith: I do too. That's why.
[00:32:58] Mike: Do you think they become, they get more and more desperate and they become more and more, uh, exploratory?
[00:33:03] Keith: Wait, isn't it true that like lots of men in prison, you know, quote unquote become gay.
[00:33:09] Mike: It's a thing I've heard, but I just don't know. I didn't know like what the methodology, like what, like how that happens, like what, you know, what leads into that direction.
[00:33:16] Keith: I think what I just described is my theory of mind for that. Yeah.
[00:33:19] Mike: Okay. Yeah. Certainly.
[00:33:21] Keith: I mean, I don't know. Do you have a counter theory?
[00:33:21] Mike: as we I mean, some of the men in prison are already going to be gay. So maybe that plays a role.
[00:33:28] Keith: Yeah. Would you think it's infectious?
[00:33:29] Mike: Like maybe. Well, no, I was thinking maybe there's like guys that kind of service all the other guys and the other guys kind of close their eyes and pretend it's a chick or something so they can sort of like, not, I'm not sure.
[00:33:38] Keith: Oh.
[00:33:41] Mike: I actually don't know.
[00:33:41] Keith: I don't know. I don't think I could enjoy a blowjob but or ass-fucking a man unless it was actually a woman. I don't think closing my eyes would make the like beard go away.
[00:33:52] Mike: Yeah, yeah, maybe I'm not sure.
[00:33:54] Keith: but I don't know. I mean, i you know, i'm I'm joking here, but yeah, I'm not actually sure what happens.
[00:33:55] Mike: Yeah.
[00:33:58] Keith: And I guess I was just sort of taking it as a truism that it is a thing that happens. Maybe that's not actually right.
[00:34:03] Mike: Yeah, and Ali, so your issue with lesbianism is you just find women's bodies repulsive.
[00:34:07] Ally: Well, not repulsive, but just not arousing. You know what I mean? Like, I i view them in kind of like a ah clinical way.
[00:34:17] Mike: What is the least arousing part of a woman's body to you? The anus?
[00:34:21] Ally: Oh, um sure. Yeah, I guess that's the least arousing part of everybody's hands.
[00:34:23] Mike: the nostrils, but the vagina is probably pretty, I mean, what's what's the most arousing part of a woman's body? Nothing face breasts.
[00:34:32] Ally: Hands, maybe?
[00:34:33] Keith: or face, come on, ah to be press I think breasts and women's faces are like objectively beautiful.
[00:34:34] Mike: Yeah. Okay.
[00:34:34] Ally: Yeah, maybe.
[00:34:36] Mike: I mean, Ali is well, Ali's against breasts basically.
[00:34:39] Ally: I don't think breasts are attractive. but Yeah, I don't i don't like breasts.
[00:34:43] Mike: Yeah. She'd like her removed if it didn't prevent her from, uh, like she would like to have a double mastectomy if she already had a partner who didn't care. Right.
[00:34:51] Ally: Yeah.
[00:34:51] Keith: Okay, that Venn diagram has zero overlap, so.
[00:34:52] Ally: Yeah.
[00:34:56] Ally: Well, right.
[00:34:56] Mike: I mean, yeah.
[00:34:57] Ally: I mean, so I haven't had it. But like, but yeah, I don't find breasts attractive. But anyway, like, in prison, would I? I mean, hard to say, but I really don't want to go to prison.
[00:35:06] Mike: Okay.
[00:35:08] Keith: Yeah, but you could simulate the experience by denying yourself any, ah I don't know. Yeah. but I don't think.
[00:35:14] Mike: You know, it'd be great as a man would be to go to a woman's prison where they're all really desperate to have sex with someone and then you're the only guy there.
[00:35:22] Keith: Yeah.
[00:35:22] Ally: I think there's porn like that.
[00:35:25] Mike: Yeah.
[00:35:25] Keith: Well, all porn is that it's like the women are desperate to have sex with me. It's like, okay.
[00:35:31] Mike: Yes.
[00:35:32] Keith: Um.
[00:35:33] Mike: yes Yes.
[00:35:35] Keith: Yeah. Um, all right, let's move on. Uh, this is, I guess a little different than our normal thing, but it's, uh, there's, I found this subreddit called breakups and it's mostly people whining about how awful they feel after they're being broken up with. So it's like a little bit of a therapy thing. So this was the top post last week. Uh, and this guy says,
[00:36:00] Keith: Your ex doesn't care, absolutely. If you are dumped, it's time to accept that the person you love doesn't want you or to be with you, they just want to get rid of you. You might sit there with trembling hands trying to fix things, but I have bad news. Nobody but you needs this. The only thing you can do is overcome the dependency despite everything. Without lowering yourself, just destroy everything that reminds you of that person. It doesn't matter how long you've been together or how much you want him slash her back, any desire to contact even to respond should be discarded. Never go back to someone who left you or caused the destruction of the relationship.
[00:36:29] Keith: Become stronger than your emotions, better, smarter. Never respond or reconnect with those who betrayed you. No emotions are worth humiliating yourself and chasing after a traitor. They'll betray you again, discard you and humiliate you.
[00:36:39] Keith: Your ex is not who you want him or her to be and he, she never will be. Find someone who will never betray you. I liked this.
[00:36:46] Mike: sounds like Sounds like a chapter from Mein Kampf that I think I read.
[00:36:52] Mike: A little bit.
[00:36:52] Keith: I haven't read Mein Kampf, is it good?
[00:36:55] Mike: No, it's not. but it's a But there's a lot of this kind of shit in there.
[00:36:56] Ally: ah
[00:36:57] Keith: You don't have to virtue signal that.
[00:36:58] Mike: like ah It's not.
[00:36:58] Keith: Like, you can just say whether you liked it.
[00:37:00] Mike: No, it's sort of weird. i haven't no No, but this notion of like betrayal and like betrayal is permanent.
[00:37:01] Ally: Wait, my comp has Hitler's breakup advice in it?
[00:37:06] Ally: Oh.
[00:37:07] Mike: that That kind of stuff figures into it a bit. yeah
[00:37:09] Ally: So I believe that.
[00:37:10] Keith: Are you guys aware that there's some body of belief out there that Hitler may have been a virgin?
[00:37:18] Ally: No.
[00:37:19] Keith: Yeah.
[00:37:21] Keith: Like, if you Google it,
[00:37:21] Ally: Like by by choice, though, because like there's no way that he
[00:37:24] Keith: Now, like people describe like young Hitler is like sort of weird and awkward around women.
[00:37:25] Ally: couldn't have.
[00:37:29] Mike: Are you trying to suggest that he never consummated his marriage?
[00:37:32] Keith: I don't look, I have not gone down this rabbit hole. I just discovered rabbit hole recent.
[00:37:36] Mike: You don't get the joke.
[00:37:37] Keith: No, I don't.
[00:37:37] Mike: You don't get the joke. Okay.
[00:37:38] Keith: He wasn't married.
[00:37:38] Mike: So yeah, Hitler and Eva Braun got married right before they committed suicide.
[00:37:39] Keith: Was he?
[00:37:43] Ally: first
[00:37:44] Mike: So it was like in the bunker. So it'd be like, it would have been like the world's shortest marriage.
[00:37:45] Ally: me
[00:37:45] Keith: Okay.
[00:37:49] Mike: But yeah, it'd be kind of cool if they fucked before that. They probably did not.
[00:37:53] Ally: They must have, like they were living in a bunker together, why do you think?
[00:37:55] Mike: No, no, if they fucked, I mean, if they fucked between their marriage ceremony or whatever they did.
[00:37:58] Ally: Oh, oh, oh, oh, yeah, okay, yeah.
[00:37:59] Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:38:01] Keith: Is it true that like that happened on the same day? Who was there to witness this?
[00:38:03] Mike: I believe so. Uh, I don't know. I mean, world war two nerds would know.
[00:38:08] Keith: Yeah, of course.
[00:38:08] Ally: I was trying to remember the name of his dog, the dog was there, I don't know.
[00:38:09] Mike: Yeah.
[00:38:09] Keith: But I mean, it's a limited number of people that were in like the interstate and then like got out to tell the story.
[00:38:12] Mike: I don't want to get it wrong.
[00:38:16] Mike: Oh, yeah, there were plenty of people. but No, there were plenty of people that were in that bunker that got out because there were there were just like servants and stuff. Like there was an interpreter, I think, that was alive until like the 2000s who was in the bunker.
[00:38:25] Keith: Huh.
[00:38:26] Mike: I think that's right.
[00:38:26] Keith: Interpreter of what?
[00:38:26] Mike: Or like, oh, like a language interpreter.
[00:38:28] Keith: Hebrew, English.
[00:38:29] Mike: Yeah, like, yeah, I don't know, Russian and English, something like that. You have to look it up.
[00:38:34] Keith: Yeah.
[00:38:35] Mike: But there yeah, there were definitely like people that were just because they're not like the people that just like did the odd jobs, like they're not going to get prosecuted.
[00:38:35] Keith: Okay.
[00:38:38] Keith: Yeah. Okay.
[00:38:40] Mike: I mean, they were just blue collar folks, right?
[00:38:44] Keith: I was just a bunker.
[00:38:45] Mike: there There were people there. Yeah, there were people there. Yeah. I mean, they they had like a cleaning crew in the bunker.
[00:38:50] Keith: um I didn't know what they were doing.
[00:38:52] Mike: It's like, if only you had not cleaned the the Fuhrer bunker, the war wouldn't have gone on so long.
[00:38:58] Keith: Right.
[00:38:58] Mike: It's like, okay.
[00:38:58] Keith: Right. Right. Right. You could just poison them and starve them. Okay. All right. Anyway, I'd like
[00:39:01] Ally: Wait, but I forgot. what What was your actual question about this breakup post? Does it sound like Hitler?
[00:39:04] Keith: Right. No.
[00:39:06] Mike: No, his question is, he thinks it sounds reasonable.
[00:39:08] Keith: Yeah. Like I think that people, when they get broken up with, I've had this experience a couple of times. I don't get broken up with much, but the times that I have, I feel like, yeah, I'm like going through all this pain and like, like, I feel this like compulsion to like reach out to them.
[00:39:23] Keith: But the reality is like that other person is just glad you're gone. Like they've moved on. They don't give a shit.
[00:39:28] Mike: Wait, can I ask you a quick question about that though? I think we should talk about the the rest of this, but like when you had that experience of the thing you described there, did you have reasonably ready access to sex from someone else?
[00:39:30] Keith: Uh-huh.
[00:39:42] Keith: No, that's a huge problem.
[00:39:43] Mike: Okay.
[00:39:43] Keith: like Like moving on.
[00:39:44] Mike: And if you had,
[00:39:45] Keith: Yeah, I speculate I would have been fine.
[00:39:46] Mike: If you had, yeah, that's so this is then this is a point I want to make for men. like This advice feels like it's made meant for women. Because for men, like I just think that this problem immediately takes care of itself if you have somebody else you can fuck a few times.
[00:40:03] Ally: I don't think that's true because I've been in the situation where like we broke up and then like we both found somebody new to fuck and then like there was still like contact in a way that made it seem like, you know oh, they still have something they want to like work out with me or whatever.
[00:40:04] Keith: I can't mean anything.
[00:40:18] Ally: but like I think the advice is correct that no contact is the best way to go and will help you get over it the fastest. I don't think it's true that the person is just 100% glad you're gone. I think it's often the case that the person is like mad at you and you're mad at them and you want to just win. And I think you have to give up on that, on like being able to like have the last word or like win the last argument or something. but like
[00:40:44] Keith: I think to a rough approximation, it is the case that they'd like, just don't care. Like they might care a little bit, but for the most part they've moved on.
[00:40:54] Mike: Yeah, well, there's something. I mean, if a person breaks up with another person in that way, there's a whole history backstory to that that maybe the other person doesn't even know about where the person made the decision to do that.
[00:41:05] Mike: And so they've already reached this point.
[00:41:05] Keith: Right. They've pre-grieved. Yeah.
[00:41:08] Mike: Yeah. Yes, the right thing, the right way to handle being broken up with is just to be like, oh, OK, cool. Like to just be completely like fine with it and don't and just be like, OK, bye.
[00:41:19] Keith: Yeah, the only chance, that's right, the only chance you have of like earning their respect back, and it's a very small sliver of a chance, but yeah, the best revenge is living well.
[00:41:19] Mike: Anything else you do is a mistake.
[00:41:30] Keith: Like you can't, like if if you like send them these mopey emails every other day, like you're just justifying what they did.
[00:41:39] Mike: Right.
[00:41:39] Keith: Like they, yeah, their only chance is to live well. And even that is like a tiny chance, but yeah, you should definitely not reach out.
[00:41:46] Mike: Right. And if you don't want them to break up with you, even if you were to reestablish the relationship, it's complicated because this thing happened in the past and how you like, you would have to like, figure out how to overcome that.
[00:41:57] Mike: But I do i do think that broadly like yeah broadly, I think that like the sort of economic the economics between male and female here play ah play a role.
[00:41:57] Keith: Right. The trail.
[00:42:06] Mike: men are men it's harder For men it's difficult to find sex, for women it's difficult to find intimacy. And so I think this it's harder for it it's much less likely that a woman will be able to reestablish intimacy quickly with somebody else.
[00:42:19] Mike: So she's going to be in this position more reliably when broken up with than a man will, if the man can get access to sex from another woman like relatively quickly. So a solution for men is simply to find a way to get another sexual partner.
[00:42:31] Keith: I wonder. Yeah. I really wonder if like the best advice for men is not, you know, take your time grieving and processing. And, you know, when you're ready, it's just to get on Tinder and swipe left on everybody or right, whichever the, what the yes way is and try and get out there.
[00:42:50] Ally: I mean, yeah, I'm sure generally that works.
[00:42:51] Keith: So you're oats.
[00:42:52] Ally: I think it depends like what your goal is. I mean, if your goal is to figure out like, what did you do wrong in this relationship that led you to choose somebody who was bad for you, swiping
[00:43:02] Mike: Men don't think like that that.
[00:43:03] Keith: and told her to be a better person.
[00:43:05] Mike: No, no, men's goal is very simple. It's to ejaculate semen into a woman's vagina.
[00:43:10] Ally: But then why would they ever have a relationship to break up in the first place?
[00:43:11] Mike: you
[00:43:13] Ally: Because that doesn't imply a relationship.
[00:43:17] Mike: Because women won't allow men to ejaculate inside their vaginas unless they're, typically unless they're in relationships with them. So the man has to go through all these hoops in order to get, and then, you know, like people people like interpersonal relationships.
[00:43:29] Mike: So it's not like, you know, people don't like having friends and having relationships.
[00:43:30] Ally: Well, yeah, but I'm saying like you know if you've gotten into a relationship and then broken up with someone, like presumably something in that is not how you wanted it to go. right Like there's some, something went wrong. And so I think it is worth figuring out what went wrong.
[00:43:49] Mike: Sure, i mean I mean, I think, well, it depends on who broke up with whom. you're You're saying if a man gets broken up with, it's useful to the man to find out why he got broken up with.
[00:44:00] Ally: Even if it was mutual, I don't think it really matters who broke up with whom.
[00:44:00] Mike: Is that what you're saying?
[00:44:04] Ally: I just think that like, Just, you know, like of what you're saying, I guess is just like pick the next person who will fuck you and like, yes, that will get you to fucking sooner, but it won't necessarily mean that the same thing won't happen to you next week or next month or next year or something. Like ideally you want to figure out what led to the relationship dissolving so that you can make a better choice.
[00:44:27] Mike: I don't think I've ever in my life thought about that. Like in a relationship, like, Oh, I'm going to figure out what I did wrong and do better because it just doesn't, first of all, first of all, I don't really care.
[00:44:36] Ally: Well, that tracks.
[00:44:39] Mike: But secondly, that's not like, I don't think that, I don't think that you can make durable changes to your personality like that. I mean, there might be some minor things like ah when I was a kid, there was this comic book store in my town.
[00:44:49] Ally: Oh yeah, you said you were like mean to the comic book owner and then you apologize.
[00:44:50] Mike: ah This was like in the eighties.
[00:44:54] Mike: yeah And he kicked me out. So I did like learn a little bit there to like be less mean to people, but for the most part, like...
[00:44:57] Ally: Yeah. What if it's not about changing your personality? What if it's about changing your like decision algorithm for how you choose people to fuck?
[00:45:01] Keith: I have an analogy here. I have an analogy here. So I listened to this podcast years ago and
[00:45:08] Mike: Men don't get to choose who to fuck, Allie. Go ahead, Keith.
[00:45:12] Keith: The hosts were speculating. let's say you know so when Let's say you have a child and your child dies tragically. um There's some amount of grief that is the amount, the the correct amount of grief. um But what if there was a pill that would just make your grief go away and then you could go on and continue to live your life? You're not going to forget your child, but you're not going to be like haunted by the grief.
[00:45:34] Keith: you know should you take that pill after one day or one week or one month or one year? like What is the right amount of suffering that you want before you can sort of go on and be functional? And the host talked about, yeah, there's some balance. like you won to yeah If there's like a lesson to be learned or or some kind of benefit to be gained by the the experience of the pain of the grief,
[00:45:57] Keith: um But a lot of people, like basically the rest of their lives are ruined because like all they can do is think about their their deceased child. And so this is similar. like After you go through a breakup, is there some amount of time where like you're meant to be sort of miserable and like reflective and you know that can spur some positive change in yourself?
[00:46:15] Keith: Or like Mike, should you not think about it at all, just go out and find somebody to fuck and and move on as quickly as possible.
[00:46:21] Mike: No, no. Well, I mean, I I'm not saying that guys can be successful at that. I'm not saying that like that's a strategy that I could pursue because it's hard. It's much harder for men to find sex than it is for women. So particularly with like and particularly if you put in like not with a prostitute, not with somebody that like you you find disgusting, not like, you know, somebody that like is actually a reasonable person.
[00:46:31] Keith: for sure.
[00:46:39] Keith: Yes, but the trick to make it so that it'll help you get over the person is that you have to like the new person, right? Like you have to be pursuing them and engaged with them.
[00:46:48] Mike: Yeah, I mean, the
[00:46:48] Ally: Yeah, but also, I don't think it helps to be miserable, but I think it helps to introspect even if you are with a new person because you can make better choices.
[00:47:01] Ally: It's like if you went out and got a burrito and it gave you diarrhea, you could be like, oh, well, I just need to go get another burrito right away. But like you might also want to think about like how did I choose this first burrito? And like can I figure out a way to like choose cleaner restaurants so that I don't get diarrhea with the next burrito?
[00:47:15] Ally: Otherwise, you're just going to keep getting diarrhea from burritos.
[00:47:17] Mike: Yeah. So Ali, I think there's like a fundamental way that you don't understand the male experience. Men don't choose their partners.
[00:47:24] Keith: yeah
[00:47:24] Mike: You understand that, right? like In the human species, the woman is the selective one. The guy basically goes... like If you look at the number, like that the the most important traits ah for for like a partner, ah for women, it's kind of complicated and different women have different things.
[00:47:39] Mike: and so if you like So if you imagine like kind of a histogram, like all of the all of the important traits are like relatively uncommon for women, meaning like some women want tall men, most women want tall men, but like, you know, there's a lot of different traits.
[00:47:50] Mike: For men, the number one thing by far, and it's like 70% or 80% of men put this number one is just somebody that's nice to them.
[00:47:59] Mike: Right? And this is the thing. So like, as a guy, like if you're not, no, there isn't.
[00:48:01] Ally: There is some choice involved, though. like it's definite It's definitely not true that men don't choose yet. Even in your own life, like you can't say that you didn't choose.
[00:48:10] Mike: I can say that.
[00:48:11] Ally: No, you can't. I've heard the story of like how you got together with your wife. You didn't just like pick the first person who would have sex with you. like
[00:48:19] Mike: Well, I mean, men don't marry the first person they have sex with, typically, but and men don't necessarily want to do that. But it's not. But my point is that there's no there's basically never it's unusual for a man.
[00:48:30] Mike: Keith accepted here. You have to you have to work really hard at your life to have like a bevy of women to choose among. It's not a common ah situation for a man to find himself in the much more common situation is you put yourself into social situations than some woman.
[00:48:46] Mike: Now, sure, they're they're women that you won't be interested in.
[00:48:46] Ally: I mean, that's not been my experience, but I think it's possible that I hang out with like higher value men who do you attract a bevy of women.
[00:48:54] Mike: No, I think you don't, and i actually actually, I think you're misinterpreting what you see. you Okay, are you saying that you you experience men who have tons of selection? Or are you saying you you get rejected a lot by men?
[00:49:06] Mike: The second one is more plausible.
[00:49:07] Ally: No, I'm the former, like not tons of selection, not like, oh, I could choose between 20 people, but like I could choose between, you know, three to five people or something.
[00:49:08] Mike: The first one, I don't believe you.
[00:49:19] Mike: How how do you how do they how do they know how do you know that that's happening?
[00:49:23] Ally: because they're having, well, like if they're having casual sex with like three to five people at the same time before choosing one to get into a serious relationship with.
[00:49:23] Mike: How do you like, how is it believable?
[00:49:35] Mike: and Okay. This might be because you're like above a certain age.
[00:49:39] Ally: No, I think that's been true my whole dating life.
[00:49:47] Mike: What do you think about that?
[00:49:47] Ally: From college onward, at least.
[00:49:48] Mike: What do you think about that, Keith? How many times? and Well, I mean, see, Keith is unusual. what What percentage of men, Keith, do you think have three to five women they're casually having sex with?
[00:49:57] Ally: or that they could casually have sex with.
[00:49:59] Keith: No, it's effectively zero.
[00:49:59] Ally: like
[00:50:00] Keith: but even i Even I, from my mountain of of ah female interest, ah no, it's like um if a woman is available to me, I will almost certainly try to have sex with them if they you know clear some attractiveness bar.
[00:50:01] Mike: That's what I think too.
[00:50:18] Keith: And I'm a little bit helpless against, like well if if they're available, I'm a little bit helpless against that. like I will almost certainly go for it.
[00:50:28] Mike: So what's your analysis of what Ali's saying? Is it, is it that she's, they're lying to her? Is it that they're all super unattractive women in some way? So it's like, they're not really three to five. It's like kind of each one's like 0.1 or something.
[00:50:39] Mike: Like how is this happening?
[00:50:41] Keith: I don't know. there's there's the The reality is, it's much like the Democrats' loss in the election, it's it's probably a lot of things. And you can pick one hobby horse to rattle on about, but a part of it is like she's but she's misperceiving.
[00:50:50] Mike: Okay.
[00:50:53] Keith: Part of it is the men are like exaggerating. Part of it is they might not be as a tribe. Who knows?
[00:51:00] Mike: Well, maybe they're all polyamorous, so they're like in these sort of...
[00:51:03] Ally: So it's not like, I mean, it's not like they have a schedule where it's like, oh, Mondays is Anna, Tuesdays is Kristin or whatever, but it's like there are, you know, if if you're like kind of dating and there are women that you, you know, maybe you have slept with once, like you probably could sleep with them again, but maybe you're also on the apps and there's like another person that you're also interested in.
[00:51:21] Ally: like I think this happens, maybe this happens more with apps or when you're in college and just presented with a lot of people.
[00:51:24] Keith: i mean
[00:51:27] Ally: But like, I think there are like a ton of situations where it's like, yeah, there are, you know, a certain number of people who like, maybe like the guy has slept with once or twice. And it's like, if they committed to that person, they could turn that into a relationship.
[00:51:38] Ally: But like there are other people around also.
[00:51:40] Mike: Are these, when you say these are high value men, are they like top 0.1% net worth men or something?
[00:51:42] Ally: like
[00:51:47] Mike: Like what, what, what makes them?
[00:51:47] Ally: No, no.
[00:51:49] Mike: Okay.
[00:51:49] Keith: I mean.
[00:51:49] Ally: It's fun to be around and like interesting and like sort of attractive.
[00:51:50] Mike: All right.
[00:51:54] Ally: I don't know.
[00:51:55] Mike: I think they're lying to you.
[00:51:57] Keith: I think she's misperceiving. like Consider people who marry their like high school or college sweetheart. right
[00:52:04] Ally: Well, sure, that happens too.
[00:52:04] Keith: like but What's happening is you know young men are like generally sexually frustrated and like suffering constant ah rejection, and then at some point some woman ah makes herself available to to him and then they date and then It really has nothing to do with like their compatibility But you know that like they they just keep taking the easier path and they stay together long enough and then they eventually get married and Like what happened was like some woman at some point happened to show him interest
[00:52:31] Ally: um
[00:52:36] Keith: And it's all just sort of random, but like, it's not like he was ah about, you know, vetting like 15 different candidates and choosing the one that he thought was the best match. It's just whoever was sexually available to him first.
[00:52:47] Ally: that's one personality type. But I'm saying there is a personality type that, you know, I agree, maybe you guys are not as familiar with, where they have a lot of like friends who they would have sex with, or like friends who they have had sex with a couple times.
[00:52:55] Keith: Wow.
[00:53:02] Ally: And they're not dating that person.
[00:53:03] Keith: Well, I do have
[00:53:04] Ally: Like, it's not a relationship.
[00:53:05] Mike: Wait.
[00:53:05] Ally: But like, it could be, you know, if that if they like, invested in that or something, but in on, you know,
[00:53:10] Mike: Is this a woman or a man? This person who's had sex has friends and then she has sex with this person who has.
[00:53:16] Ally: A man, I don't know men, like men have this happen.
[00:53:19] Keith: yeahba
[00:53:19] Ally: I think both genders have this happen. I think like men, you know, there are men who are in this position also.
[00:53:27] Mike: I don't know any of those, really. I mean, maybe maybe Keith, but I don't think even.
[00:53:32] Keith: I mean, I definitely have a rolodex of people that I could call and probably have sex with today.
[00:53:37] Mike: But you would have to put up with some nonsense afterward right because they would, it's like it wouldn't in most cases, they wouldn't perceive it as a casual encounter. It would be it would always be a little more complicated.
[00:53:46] Keith: and might They might have some hope, yeah.
[00:53:47] Mike: right Do you think, do Keith, do you think, like just in in theory here, Keith, do you think it's possible this could be a ah piece of rhetoric that somebody would tell Ali and that it could get more sex out of Ali?
[00:53:49] Ally: I mean, like something I've been told like it.
[00:53:58] Mike: Like basically implying that they're casually dating all these people like, hey, you know, so they're high value and, but hey, you're leading the pack or something. So like basically.
[00:54:06] Keith: yeah
[00:54:08] Mike: Okay.
[00:54:08] Ally: I've known guys like I've known, all I've also known guys who I haven't had sex with, who I know to be in this position.
[00:54:16] Mike: i
[00:54:16] Ally: But like I mean, I think Keith just said like there are several people, possibly you know three to five people who he could call and have sex with, but he doesn't because he cares about, I guess, their feelings. But like if he didn't care about their feelings or if he thought that you know maybe he would want to be in a relationship with one of them, like just the fact that he has three people who he could call up implies that he's kind of in that position.
[00:54:27] Mike: Okay.
[00:54:36] Mike: Okay, so my my what I want to say about this is my suspicion is that in order for this to happen, first of all, you have to be above some age so the women are getting more desperate. So they're looking for sort of a life partner. They haven't found one yet. And the guy has to be kind of sociopathic. So basically he's just lying to them comprehensively. I don't think women want to be one of five women that a guy is fucking. And it's like, oh, you know, maybe I'll pick you. Like that's like that's a situation I think women would almost always nope out of because It's like just violates all sorts of norms unless they're like explicitly polyamorous That's true, but you're suggesting there are guys where there's like three to five potential partners that he's sort of like got in his he's sort of cycling among
[00:55:05] Ally: If it goes on for a long time, but if it's like, you know, let's say you've gone on like three dates with this guy, and then you sleep with him, like, I don't assume that I'm the only person that he's dating. And I think it would be weird to assume that like that immediately means you're in a relationship.
[00:55:29] Ally: Yeah. Cause I think like just the sheer number of people you can match with on the apps means that you're going to have multiple conversations happening simultaneously.
[00:55:32] Mike: OK.
[00:55:36] Mike: So you're saying that you're saying that the the stable of three to five women is changing constantly because they're having.
[00:55:40] Ally: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:55:43] Mike: I see. So they're basically.
[00:55:43] Ally: But it does still imply choice. Like there are still, you know, multiple candidates that are in different stages of the pipeline that you're kind of like evaluating.
[00:55:46] Mike: OK. OK.
[00:55:53] Mike: Yeah, this is this is more plausible to me. They're basically like in the early stages of dating people and there's some evaluation process going on there.
[00:55:57] Ally: Yeah.
[00:55:59] Mike: The the point I would make is that the woman have already so the women in this situation by having sex with them have already selected them. So yeah, I mean, there's a there's a selection process. This is why like in the cultural norms of Western society, the man proposes marriage, right?
[00:56:14] Mike: So the woman makes a selection early in the relationship. And then later in the relationship, the man makes a kind of bigger selection. So that's true. The man, the man makes some kind of selection, but I still would argue that like the most important, like the most important selection and the the thing that really controls the availability of sex to men is that first selection made by women.
[00:56:22] Ally: yeah
[00:56:32] Mike: And so you have this, yeah, okay. You're just basically saying these are higher value men that are able to go on an app, get swiped right on enough and have sex like somewhat reliably with new people all the time. That makes sense to me.
[00:56:43] Ally: Yeah. And so I think there's like some amount where the man can choose and isn't just like passively waiting for a woman to come by and be like, Oh, I'd fuck you. Like they can, you know, I mean, like Keith is doing, I guess they can say like, Oh, you know, I could have sex with this woman, but like, I'm not that into her.
[00:56:58] Ally: So I'm not going to marry her or whatever, you know.
[00:56:58] Mike: But you do.
[00:57:00] Ally: like
[00:57:00] Mike: Does it hurt you emotionally if you sort of have selected a guy in and had sex with him twice and then he's like, hey, I'm actually having sex with three other women and I'm going to pick a different one. Does that like is that hard on you?
[00:57:11] Ally: It's a little bit disappointing. It's not hard emotionally because like I haven't at that point invested in him as much. like If that happened after we'd been like dating for four months or something or like for a year or something, that would be difficult because then I would feel like, oh, he's really you know gotten to know me and has made a full choice.
[00:57:30] Ally: But if it's like, oh, we went on three dates and had sex, and but like we're not sure about each other, like that's not bad.
[00:57:37] Mike: Okay, but I've heard from various very well-informed sources on this that it's common for women once the semen goes in the vagina to kind of fall in love with the guy and kind of get obsessed with him.
[00:57:46] Keith: fluid bonding.
[00:57:46] Mike: You're saying that doesn't happen to you?
[00:57:48] Ally: No.
[00:57:49] Mike: Okay, so I think that's unusual. I think most women do. once like it's the The part of the selection process of sex is like self-preservation. They know that once they let that happen, then they're going to have a much harder time with the breakup.
[00:58:04] Ally: I don't think so. I think also if I had dated a guy and we hadn't had sex, but I had been dating him for like four months or something and then he wanted to break up. I think that would still be harder than breaking up with a guy where we'd like been on three dates and had sex because like it's about the amount of time they've invested in like how much they've gotten to know you and whether you feel like they're rejecting like you as a complete person or whether they're just like rejecting a very superficial impression of you, you know.
[00:58:33] Mike: I do, but I don't think that's how that emotionally works for most women. I think that the way it works is that they have this like important this kind of very important to them selection process that they make. And then if the guy dumps them or whatever breaks up with them quickly after that, then it's like, oh, there's like kind of a record needle scratch thing. It's like sucks, right? as opposed to like If you get to know each other for six months, it's like, well, then there was more data to go by. The first one, it's just the guy basically got what he wanted, which was sex, and then moved on. and That's sort of painful because they sort of blew it in selecting him in.
[00:59:07] Ally: i I could see how people would view it that way. I was like, I don't view it that way, but.
[00:59:14] Mike: Maybe you should.
[00:59:16] Keith: Yeah, there's like' an opportunity cost, right?
[00:59:16] Ally: Maybe.
[00:59:18] Mike: i mean Keith, you found this to be the case. right that like
[00:59:22] Mike: you're one of the well-informed sources I have on this. that like there's a there's a It's more challenging for the woman if if you break up quickly after so sex than beforehand.
[00:59:34] Mike: beforehand
[00:59:35] Keith: Yes, no question.
[00:59:38] Mike: Okay.
[00:59:38] Keith: I think, but well, I think most women view, yeah, like having sex with a man is like really becoming more vulnerable, right? Like the man is not meant to do that if that's all he wants. And like women are like paranoid that that's like what's going on and they should be because often it is. um And so, yeah, like once you've had sex with somebody, yeah I think you're sort of kind of expected to stick around a little bit.
[01:00:08] Ally: Hmm.
[01:00:11] Mike: Unclear.
[01:00:11] Keith: or hope
[01:00:11] Ally: i yeah i don't I haven't really viewed it that way because like I
[01:00:16] Keith: Our hope.
[01:00:17] Ally: There have been people who I've had sex with and that has made me realize that we're not compatible, I guess.
[01:00:23] Keith: Well, and Ali, you are so much smarter than basically anyone I know. And so if somebody was rejecting you, like.
[01:00:34] Keith: You, you kind of rationally probably have the reaction, which is like, oh, okay, fuck him. Like, but he's not going, he's not going to do better.
[01:00:39] Mike: That's a fair point.
[01:00:41] Keith: Right. So like, maybe he's rejecting you because, you know, he doesn't like the shape of your vulva or whatever, but like, would you, you know, you recognize that's immutable.
[01:00:42] Ally: Yeah.
[01:00:49] Keith: And the things that like a lot of women do feel insecure about, which is like being good enough is not something that you worry about.
[01:00:49] Ally: Yeah.
[01:00:56] Keith: And so maybe your.
[01:00:57] Ally: Right. Yeah, maybe it's a different.
[01:00:58] Keith: Like that downside of like just being used for your body. Like you want to be used for your body, right?
[01:01:04] Mike: That's a fair point.
[01:01:03] Ally: Exactly.
[01:01:04] Keith: ah You're like, yeah, let let another notch of the bedpost check.
[01:01:05] Ally: Yeah.
[01:01:07] Keith: Right. But like, I think, I think women, other women may have the experience, which is like, everyone is trying to use me for my body. And that's the only thing they want to use before.
[01:01:16] Ally: Hmm.
[01:01:16] Keith: And yeah, like for you, if like somebody didn't recognize your value, you would be like, Oh, all right. Well, like you don't have any insecurity about like whether you have something to offer and you shouldn't.
[01:01:25] Ally: Yeah.
[01:01:25] Mike: Hmm.
[01:01:28] Mike: Maybe she should.
[01:01:28] Keith: So there may be some gap there.
[01:01:30] Ally: Mike likes to imagine that I do.
[01:01:33] Mike: Well, I mean, you might... Maybe that insecurity is important to the female part of the mating process. Like it bonds women more to men or something.
[01:01:44] Ally: Oh, I'm sure it bonds them more. Yeah, but it isn isn't that like ah ultimately a bad thing where women like get trapped in suboptimal situations?
[01:01:51] Keith: Everybody gets entrapped in suboptimal.
[01:01:52] Ally: but Yeah, I guess.
[01:01:53] Keith: People who marry their like high school or college partners are idiots. like they they There's no way they can know after like tasting one or two or three apples, like what the entire, you know.
[01:02:04] Mike: the you know The number of ah women that I dated in college who then married the first guy they dated after me is surprising. I think it might be 100%.
[01:02:13] Keith: It's not surprising.
[01:02:13] Mike: It's weird, right?
[01:02:14] Keith: it's that It's that like almost everybody dates the next, marries the next person they date, right?
[01:02:19] Mike: ah Fair point, fair point.
[01:02:19] Keith: That's just like, it's so lame.
[01:02:20] Ally: Hmm.
[01:02:21] Keith: Like people, I mean, look, I'm 44 and have never been married.
[01:02:22] Mike: Yeah, confirmation bias or whatever.
[01:02:25] Keith: and So, you know, ah maybe, you know, maybe don't take my advice on this, but almost everybody is going to marry the next person they have a serious relationship with.
[01:02:34] Mike: Right.
[01:02:34] Ally: Yeah.
[01:02:35] Mike: Because I guess it's survivorship bias.
[01:02:35] Ally: like did your Did your wife's most recent ex marry the next person he slept with?
[01:02:37] Mike: Yeah, that makes sense.
[01:02:37] Keith: Yeah.
[01:02:44] Mike: I don't know the answer to that.
[01:02:44] Ally: OK.
[01:02:45] Mike: I'd have to check.
[01:02:46] Keith: Okay.
[01:02:46] Mike: She might not know the answer either.
[01:02:48] Keith: All right.
[01:02:48] Mike: So
[01:02:49] Keith: You can check in on next week's episode of your mileage may vary because that will do it for this episode. You can send us feedback or questions to YMMVpod at gmail dot.com. That's YMMVpod at gmail.com. We pay $10 for any and all feedback.
[01:03:02] Keith: Uh, thanks for listening and we will catch you next week on your mileage may vary.