Your Mileage May Vary: Sex Fantasies, Deep-Throating Mishaps, Swinger Dynamics, Clitoral Secrets, Back Massage Intimacy

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00:01] Keith: Hello, and welcome to Your Mileage May Vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is often controversial, but mostly in good faith. I'm Keith, my co-host is Mike. Happy New Year, Mike.
[00:00:11] Mike: Yeah, welcome to 2025.
[00:00:13] Keith: Yeah. um I've been to two countries in 2025 already.
[00:00:20] Mike: Other than the U.S.
[00:00:22] Keith: Yeah, no, including the US.
[00:00:24] Mike: to one.
[00:00:24] Keith: I went to one country at the end of 2024, but I switched locations before the New Year. So just one other, one non-US.
[00:00:33] Mike: I see.
[00:00:36] Keith: um
[00:00:36] Mike: I see North Korea or.
[00:00:38] Keith: Still not North Korea.
[00:00:40] Mike: Hmm.
[00:00:40] Keith: You can go to North Korea if you get a non-American passport.
[00:00:46] Mike: challenging Challenging.
[00:00:47] Keith: ah Expensive, not really challenging.
[00:00:51] Mike: Oh, you you mean like a, right. You can get like a Caribbean country to give you a passport for a couple hundred grand.
[00:00:54] Keith: Yeah, lots of poor countries have this citizenship by investment, they call it.
[00:00:59] Mike: Right. Yeah.
[00:01:01] Keith: And you just basically pay a bribe to the federal government in whatever country and then they give you a passport.
[00:01:07] Mike: Right. Well, I think there are some European countries that have that too, but I think it's more expensive than the less wealthy countries.
[00:01:13] Keith: Yes, I think famously for a while Portugal had some sort of system.
[00:01:15] Mike: So.
[00:01:18] Mike: I think they do, Spain, Malta is one that people use in the EU.
[00:01:19] Keith: I don't remember what it was.
[00:01:23] Keith: Right.
[00:01:26] Mike: um I'm not sure what the point is exactly. I guess, yeah, maybe that so they can go places like North Korea. That makes sense.
[00:01:31] Keith: Well, I think there's tax reasons or tax dodging reasons that people may do such a thing or maybe be evading the law if you can get citizenship in a non-extradition country.
[00:01:34] Mike: Sure.
[00:01:45] Mike: There are a lot of people who are angry. They say they're angry enough about Donald Trump being president that they want to leave. And I heard an interview with the minister in Canada who's responsible for immigration.
[00:01:55] Mike: And he said that while they don't see an uptick, they because Trump has obviously became president of before, when when events like this happen, they don't see an uptick in actual immigrants. What they do see is an uptick in accesses to their website.
[00:02:08] Mike: So people, Americans sort of look into it.
[00:02:08] Keith: huh Yeah.
[00:02:10] Mike: The other thing I've actually frequented a little bit, the There's some expatriate and kind of, I think it's one called ExitUS or America Exit or something subreddit. And um I thought this was notable. My wife thought it wasn't at all. um Obviously the people all want to go to English speaking countries, so there's that. And the entire thrust of the subreddits is getting a job. So the people who want to leave America do not have enough money to move abroad without
[00:02:41] Mike: having to have a job there.
[00:02:42] Keith: employment.
[00:02:42] Mike: And so I think that basically blocks everybody.
[00:02:45] Keith: Right. Most countries don't want people coming and taking jobs from their citizens, including the United States.
[00:02:49] Mike: Nerdy Wells, right. Oh yeah, but they also don't want like indigence, right? So like, if you don't, that's the thing is they, they're like, well, I, because I know this from moving to Europe for a year, like they, you know, it's easy if you can show them a bank account with enough money in it and it doesn't have to be that much money. We're talking maybe like low six figures.
[00:03:07] Keith: Right.
[00:03:08] Mike: But these are folks who don't have that. And so then there's just all this, it's actually kind of boring because the conversation in the subreddit is just, well, how do I get a job?
[00:03:10] Keith: Right.
[00:03:15] Mike: How do I do this? And it's just not, I don't know.
[00:03:17] Keith: Right, right, right.
[00:03:17] Mike: it's In other words, it's boring to me because it's not about where the best quality of life is. It's just practical, like kind of, or, well, I mean, yeah, they want to get, they want to be eligible as a person with no funds.
[00:03:23] Keith: Right, how to suck down from the social welfare states.
[00:03:33] Keith: Right, right.
[00:03:34] Mike: So it's the same story everywhere.
[00:03:35] Keith: All right, enough. Let's normally if we talk about sex and relationships, so let's do that.
[00:03:36] Mike: Yeah.
[00:03:42] Keith: Do you have any pattern for us?
[00:03:44] Mike: I do a couple of things. So ah my wife was reading a book. She's a very literary person, a book by D.H. Lawrence called Lady Chatterley's Lover.
[00:03:54] Mike: Have you read that?
[00:03:55] Keith: No.
[00:03:56] Mike: OK, it was let me see when it was published. ah First, in around 1930, that time frame.
[00:04:03] Keith: What gave her cause to read this?
[00:04:06] Mike: So there's a site, uh, called standard eBooks or something like that, that basically we encountered on probably on Reddit that basically is they take off copyright books and they format them really nicely for ebook readers and and they're free.
[00:04:20] Mike: Uh, so this is just like literature, right?
[00:04:20] Keith: ah
[00:04:22] Mike: It's general literature that you can get for free and put on your iPad and read. So I think it was just that she was.
[00:04:27] Keith: And the main value is that it's free.
[00:04:31] Mike: Sure. Well, it's the, I mean, the main value of going to the standard eBooks thing is because a lot of times things that are off copyright like that, like they're not formatted nicely when you put them on the iPad.
[00:04:40] Keith: Ah, OK.
[00:04:42] Mike: So these people have actually gone to the trouble to do that.
[00:04:44] Keith: Nice.
[00:04:44] Mike: For literature, I mean, anything that's off copyright, why would you, I mean, you could pay for it, but why? I mean, it should, it's nice to have a free one.
[00:04:50] Keith: ah It's a little bit like pirating content for me. it's
[00:04:55] Mike: It's free. It's actually off copyright.
[00:04:55] Keith: i don't
[00:04:57] Mike: So.
[00:04:58] Keith: Yeah. But for example, I can tour into movie and then to watch it, I need to go dig out my HDMI cable, connect it to my TV. And if I want to pause it, I have to like reach across and press the space bar on my computer and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[00:05:10] Mike: Sure.
[00:05:14] Keith: Um, if Netflix or Amazon prime or YouTube, whatever makes it, you know, two 99 to watch a movie, I will usually do that just because the two 99 isn't and that's a low enough bar.
[00:05:23] Mike: Sure.
[00:05:26] Keith: Then I'm just like, ah, whatever.
[00:05:28] Mike: yeah
[00:05:28] Keith: So and I agree that like everything else being equal, free is better. But if for that amount of money, $2.99, it doesn't take that much friction for me to just be like, oh, okay, I'll just pay.
[00:05:40] Mike: Sure. Yeah. No, that makes sense. I think that, I mean, uh, yeah, I don't think there's.
[00:05:45] Keith: And with a book with a book that takes you say 20 hours to read, you know, if it costs I don't know, $8 or whatever. That's like a you know quarter, an hour.
[00:05:55] Keith: It's not the money that's that's the thing that matters there.
[00:05:56] Mike: Sure. Yeah, no, it's not.
[00:05:58] Keith: It's the time.
[00:05:58] Mike: And I'm sure I could look how much it would be on the Kindle and Amazon, for example.
[00:06:01] Keith: Yeah.
[00:06:02] Mike: Uh,
[00:06:02] Keith: But the thing you said, which is that it's formatted nicely, that is an interesting point.
[00:06:08] Mike: the Yeah, you're right. The Kindle book on Amazon of this book is $2.55. So your theoretical pricing there was prescient. um Actually, there's also a version that's, yeah, there's a 99 cent version too.
[00:06:18] Keith: Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.
[00:06:22] Mike: but But yeah, I don't know about about the formatting. yeah you Even ones you pay for can have crappy formatting because of these sort of fly by night things.
[00:06:25] Keith: Yeah. I've seen this a lot it's with with travel guides, especially if it's not Lonely Planet. It's, you know, maybe some local. They're often not good. Okay. Anyway, D.H. Lawrence book.
[00:06:39] Mike: Okay, so this is about, I haven't read it, ah she's read or reading it, and it's about a man, let's see let me think about this, it's a woman whose husband, it's in like the 19th century, and she ah her her husband um is unable to give her a child, or I forget what's wrong with him, me oh no, you know what it is, he was injured, and so he's like in a wheelchair and his penis doesn't work.
[00:07:00] Keith: Hmm.
[00:07:01] Mike: And so she's looking for a lover who potentially could give her a child and her husband has said, yeah, exactly a stud, and her husband has said that he would be comfortable raising that child.
[00:07:04] Keith: I stowed.
[00:07:11] Mike: Okay, so this is ah in the voice of, so there's a section of it that she read to me because she was she thought it was sort of relevant to the podcast and I agreed. um I think it's um one of the lovers that's talking here.
[00:07:26] Mike: And he's complaining about the various types of women. This is you know written in 1930 that he's encountering in his quest for a good fuck.
[00:07:33] Keith: Okay.
[00:07:35] Mike: Okay. So here we go. He says, that was what I wanted. A woman who wanted me to fuck her. So I fucked her like a good one. And I think she despised me for a bit, being so pleased about it and bringing her breakfast in bed sometimes.
[00:07:45] Keith: Hmm.
[00:07:49] Mike: She sort of let things go, didn't give me a proper dinner when I came home from work. And if I said anything, flew out at me and I flew back. She flung a cup at me and I took her by the scruff of her neck and squeezed the life out of her.
[00:08:01] Mike: That sort of thing. But she treated me with insolence and she's got so she never, she'd never have me when I wanted her. Never. Always put me off brutal as you like. And then when she'd put me right off, and I didn't want her, she'd come all lovey-dovey and get me.
[00:08:15] Mike: And I always went. But when I had her, she'd never come off when I did. Never. Now, here I think when he says she'd never come off when I did, she means he means orgasm. Never.
[00:08:24] Keith: Yeah.
[00:08:24] Mike: She'd just wait. And if I kept back for half an hour, meaning he didn't orgasm for half an hour, she'd keep back longer. And when I'd come and really finish, then she'd start on her own account.
[00:08:35] Mike: And I had to stop inside her till she brought herself off wriggling and shouting. She'd clutch, clutch, clutch with herself down there. And then she'd come off fair and ecstasy. And then she'd say, that was lovely. Gradually, I got sick of it and she got worse. She sort of got harder and harder to bring off. And she'd sort of tear at me down there as if it was a beak tearing at me. By God, you'd think a woman soft down there like a fig. But I tell you, the old rampers have beaks between their legs and they tear at you with it till you're sick.
[00:09:05] Mike: tearing and shouting. They talk about men's selfishness, but I doubt if it could ever touch a woman's blind beakishness once she's gone that way, like an old t troll. She couldn't help it. I told her about it. I told her how I hated it, and she'd even try. She tried to lie still and let me work the business. She tried, but it was no good. She got no feeling off it from my working. She had to work the thing herself, grind her own coffee, and it came back on her like a raving necessity.
[00:09:32] Mike: she had let her so She had to let herself go and tear, tear, tear as if she had no sensation in her except the tip of her beak, the very outside top tip that rubbed and tore. That's how old whores used to be, so men used to say.
[00:09:44] Mike: It was a low kind of self-will and her a raving sort of self-will, like a woman who drinks. Well, in the end, I couldn't stand it. We slept apart.
[00:09:51] Keith: Huh.
[00:09:51] Mike: Okay, that's enough.
[00:09:52] Keith: Huh.
[00:09:52] Mike: So can you tell what's going on there? What do what do you think is going on there?
[00:09:57] Keith: um This beak analogy is interesting.
[00:10:02] Mike: Yes.
[00:10:03] Keith: He says something about the the top part. get kit I think that's like a clitoral reference.
[00:10:06] Mike: Yes. So I, yeah, go ahead.
[00:10:15] Mike: Yes. It seems to irritate him that she needs clitoral stimulation to come.
[00:10:19] Keith: Yeah, it sounds like maybe she's grinding her pubic bone on him, perhaps.
[00:10:25] Mike: Yes, definitely. Definitely.
[00:10:27] Keith: But yeah, um that's really colorful writing.
[00:10:30] Mike: Well, she's yeah, like it is.
[00:10:32] Keith: i like I like it. It was written in the 1920s, you said?
[00:10:36] Mike: yeah she
[00:10:37] Keith: Huh.
[00:10:37] Mike: yeah she's basically he won and I think it came through in there, but there might be a slightly different section of the book where this were in the the chapter where he says this, but basically he what he wants is for her to orgasm from PIV. And he's very frustrated because she won't, because he considers that to be like the normal way for it to work.
[00:10:48] Keith: Yeah. Right.
[00:10:53] Mike: And instead, she'll wait until he comes and then want to grind on him, which he finds very uncomfortable.
[00:11:00] Keith: Right.
[00:11:02] Mike: Um, so I, yeah, I mean, in some ways I just think he's describing a very common, he's describing basically the female, yeah, the female sexual response cycle that actually like most women experience.
[00:11:07] Keith: Male experience.
[00:11:12] Keith: Right.
[00:11:15] Keith: Right.
[00:11:17] Mike: And he's frustrated by it. He wants her just to come the normal way, which she can't or won't.
[00:11:20] Keith: Right, or or not come, although he wouldn't say that.
[00:11:23] Mike: Do you, do you find it like, so I can sort of vibe with this a little bit. Like if you have a woman, it's true that if you have a woman who's say on top and grinding on you to get her clit kind of stimulated against your pubic bone, it can actually hurt, right?
[00:11:38] Keith: Yes.
[00:11:39] Mike: And it can be sort of annoying, right?
[00:11:41] Keith: Yeah. I um hooked up with somebody a few years ago, and she was on top. And she had um ah shaved, but you know maybe maybe four days prior or something.
[00:11:53] Keith: So she had you know some sort of sandpapery stubble.
[00:11:57] Mike: Mm.
[00:11:57] Keith: And ah she was on top, and she was you know sort of grinding ah you know her clit into basically, I guess, my my pubic bone. and above the, not the base, I guess the base of my cock, above the base of my cock.
[00:12:11] Mike: Right.
[00:12:12] Keith: And it took her a while. My recollection is she came, but that's not important for the story. that What's important is that, yeah, she was grinding for so long that like, yeah, the next day I have like this like irritation rash.
[00:12:24] Keith: um And yeah, it's not great. Yeah.
[00:12:29] Mike: Yeah, you can imagine men in a more male-dominated situation basically discouraging that, saying, look, like you got to figure out how to come from, which is impossible for most women to come from me just stroking it in and out of you.
[00:12:44] Keith: Yes. I mean, there's a problem here, which is the thing that he wants is not really possible. He, I mean, it's the twenties. So he, you know, isn't as ah aware as as we are of the various ins and outs of the female anatomy. And so, yeah, he'd he would like to imagine that she can come just from you know his PIV stroking. And some women can, but almost all cannot. And so yeah what he would like isn't really possible, um but he thinks it is. And so he's he's annoyed.
[00:13:20] Keith: um And if you were to tell him, it would be interesting if you gave him the option was like, okay, well, would you rather her not be able to orgasm at all? ah You would, you know, you would now avoid this, this, this beaking behavior that he doesn't like, but yeah, his ego might be hurt that she's not orgasming. It's not clear what you would prefer.
[00:13:41] Mike: Right. Yeah. And he also I mean, I think what he also would like is probably a simultaneous orgasm, which is even more out there.
[00:13:51] Keith: Yeah, I mean, I think the dream for men is that, yeah, the the woman is just so rapturous from you know the stimulation of your incredible cock and ah you rising, the man rising to orgasm is is such an exciting thing for them that that helps them build to their own orgasm.
[00:13:51] Mike: um
[00:14:07] Keith: Like that's that's what men want, but it's not a realistic.
[00:14:09] Mike: Have you experienced women that purport at least to have, to orgasm when you're orgasming?
[00:14:14] Keith: Yes.
[00:14:15] Mike: Do do you, look, I'm not, no, no shade here, but do you believe them, any of them that it happened?
[00:14:24] Keith: I mean, I'll say this, I definitely did at the time.
[00:14:26] Mike: I know it's, you know, they wanted you to believe it, but yeah.
[00:14:30] Keith: I wish I could go back and relitigate these because you know knowing now what I didn't then, and I'm just not sure.
[00:14:36] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. I had one partner that did this fairly frequently and I've now concluded that there's just no way it was not, it's not plausible, which it's odd.
[00:14:46] Mike: Cause then you think it calls a bunch of things into question. You think, well, okay. So she was faking that. So probably everything was fake. Like that's sort of where I go to with that.
[00:14:57] Mike: Cause I mean, I was like, well, her behavior then wasn't any different really than other times, et cetera.
[00:15:00] Keith: Right. Yeah. Once, once you find patient zero of faking, it that really causes this like downward cascade.
[00:15:07] Mike: Yeah.
[00:15:09] Keith: It's like, okay, well, now I know that she is willing to fake or or does feel compelled to fake. Yeah. Then what, if anything is real, it's really tricky.
[00:15:20] Mike: Yeah. Though, I mean, it's not, I'm not saying it's impossible for this to happen. I mean, I think that a woman could get so psychologically excited, et cetera, that it does happen. It just seems less, very unlikely.
[00:15:29] Keith: Yeah.
[00:15:32] Keith: Yeah.
[00:15:33] Mike: As I told I told my wife because she she thought that the author was talking about simultaneous orgasm here.
[00:15:34] Keith: Yeah.
[00:15:39] Mike: And I told her that like the way I think simultaneous orgasm is most likely to happen is actually the opposite where the woman, you know, masturbates while they're having sex or whatever has an orgasm and that triggers the guy.
[00:15:51] Mike: That seems much more plausible to me. Right. Because you you get excited by seeing what's happening to her and that.
[00:15:58] Keith: Yes.
[00:15:58] Mike: Yeah. that But but in my experience, that is not common either. Maybe because women don't often, they can't like give you a countdown. Like I'm gonna orgasm in a minute, so you don't really know when it's gonna happen.
[00:16:09] Keith: Right.
[00:16:12] Keith: Yeah. And often right as and after a woman orgasms, they're extremely sensitive. And so the thing that I would want to do to, you know, bring myself to orgasm becomes sort of briefly impossible or impolite anyway.
[00:16:30] Keith: And so.
[00:16:31] Mike: what What's the thing you want to do?
[00:16:34] Keith: ah Probably not to be the gentlest, right?
[00:16:36] Mike: Oh, I see.
[00:16:38] Keith: Like, you know, when somebody is like maximally sensitive, um me going balls deep is probably a little bit uncomfortable.
[00:16:47] Mike: Well, also if she's, if she's trying to manipulate her clit, then you, there's actually like a space issue, right? If you go balls deep, she can't do what she needs to do, et cetera.
[00:16:53] Keith: Yes.
[00:16:59] Keith: Yeah.
[00:17:00] Mike: Yeah. Right. I mean, in general, the thing, the woman needs to happen to her genitals and the thing, the man needs to happen to his genitals are sort of incompatible. That's the problem. Yeah. All right.
[00:17:10] Mike: I got another thing here.
[00:17:10] Keith: um
[00:17:12] Mike: Uh, go ahead.
[00:17:12] Keith: I just want to say, one wonders, ah yeah, I mean, D.H.
[00:17:13] Mike: Yeah.
[00:17:16] Keith: Lawrence is sort of revealing something about himself.
[00:17:21] Keith: Yeah, I wonder if he was like trying to subtext somebody in his life by by writing that or so somebody he had broken up with or who knows.
[00:17:26] Mike: and Maybe.
[00:17:32] Mike: Yeah, no, I mean, like, especially. i Yeah, I mean, there could have been culturally different expectations. I mean, nowadays. look ive i i I think I was told in a Shakespeare class long ago that in the time of Shakespeare, like women were more outwardly sexual than they are now, and so there so some of the jokes that are told in Shakespeare are actually joking about how women all want to have sex all the time, and the men were more chaste.
[00:18:01] Keith: Yeah.
[00:18:01] Mike: And so that's that that suggests that's at least possible. Now, I assume it's always and like in in the context of marriage in these historical situations.
[00:18:07] Keith: Yeah.
[00:18:08] Mike: But so then, so yeah, maybe he was experiencing something similar to that, that like you have these women that just go, they just want sex. I mean, they're probably bored. They can't have jobs. They just want to fuck maybe.
[00:18:20] Keith: Yeah.
[00:18:20] Mike: And so then this this has a lot of currency.
[00:18:23] Keith: yeah the The context of the day. really is important when trying to evaluate things like I remember that song baby it's cold outside got cancelled because it was thought to be like this misogynist you know manifesto about a man coercing a woman to spend the night but the proper interpretation of it apparently according to several articles i've written on this and if if i'm wrong feel free to write in but my understanding now is that the proper interpretation is They both want her to stay over and they're sort of joking about the excuses they're gonna make to their family and friends.
[00:18:56] Mike: Hmm.
[00:18:57] Keith: Like, oh, you know, the the the weather's too cold and, you know, there's various, you know, very thinly veiled reasons about why why she must stay. um And so it's not this like misogynist manifesto.
[00:19:10] Keith: It's actually, ah yeah, this like consensual, Yeah, there's couple consenting and sort of joking about it. um Anyway, all right, let's move on.
[00:19:19] Mike: Well, suggesting that's misogynist is also interesting because it suggests the woman never wants to stay. like It certainly is the case. Actually, I would say somewhat frequently that the woman wants to stay and the guy doesn't.
[00:19:31] Mike: like That happens, particularly with the less less attractive woman.
[00:19:32] Keith: Yes, it does. It has happened to me many a time.
[00:19:38] Mike: Okay. So yesterday I was taking a drive ah to go do some stuff and I thought I would put in a podcast on my eight track podcast deck, my car. And I stumbled upon one that was talking about these these people, these went this couple that was getting into swinging and they described their first experience going to a swingers club And in this experience, no, wait, sorry, they went to a swingers club, but then they met up with a couple and they were trying to feel out whether they could have sex and swing with this couple, meaning they would so do a swap.
[00:20:13] Mike: And they went to dinner three times and the third dinner, yeah, I know the third, right, because they wanted to like make sure and have all these rules in place and stuff.
[00:20:18] Keith: three times
[00:20:20] Keith: no
[00:20:23] Keith: Well, and everyone, everyone involved is aware of what what's being set up here.
[00:20:28] Mike: yes Yes, yes.
[00:20:28] Keith: Okay. So they know it's an interview process.
[00:20:31] Mike: So the third time they switched who was sitting with whom at the dinner, just like who was on which side of the table. ah And then so they could sort of flirt.
[00:20:38] Keith: Okay.
[00:20:40] Mike: And the story is told mostly by this woman's husband who describes how his wife was getting on very well with the other woman's husband. But the woman he was talking to was less ah sure of it.
[00:20:53] Mike: And in fact confided in this guy's wife, the other woman, that she was only 70% sure. of Okay.
[00:20:58] Keith: 70%. Okay.
[00:20:59] Mike: Yeah.
[00:21:00] Keith: That's an oddly specific, but all right.
[00:21:01] Mike: Right. So anyway, they, so, so they, but apparently like they, they come to terms and agree to go to a hotel and do this, have this experience. And then the guy started describing, mostly the man started describing what he was seeing and the experience he had.
[00:21:16] Mike: And I, go ahead.
[00:21:18] Keith: Are they on, they're going to get like a two bed, uh, hotel room and then each will be on.
[00:21:23] Mike: They first, the the guy seemed to think that there was only one bed, but his wife corrected him that there were two beds, but I think they were, so this is the thing, is they apparently all were in the same bed.
[00:21:35] Mike: they slept together in the same bed and they also fucked. And like the guy's favorite part of the experience was watching his wife and the other guy's wife have sex with each other, like give each other oral sex or whatever while the two men were sort of sitting in chairs beating off both of them watching this.
[00:21:53] Mike: And I was listening to this and I was like, I, this doesn't sound compelling to me at all.
[00:21:53] Keith: Yeah.
[00:21:58] Mike: So like in the reason why, let me, I just say, and I'm curious what your, your take is on this. The reason I thought about it and I thought the reason I find this totally uncompelling is that this is not at all the male fantasy. Like it's just wrong. The presence of the other man destroys the fantasy. what i In fact, what I think the male fantasy actually is, is to have three sums good with two women. But the real male fantasy, I think, is you have your partner, but then you cheat on her.
[00:22:25] Keith: Right.
[00:22:26] Mike: I think this is actually the male fantasy is that there are these other women like that you can seduce at the same time. And and this this has nothing to do with that.
[00:22:32] Keith: Right.
[00:22:34] Mike: This sounded to me like something that I would almost like a nightmare. I was like, this sounds terrible. Like I don't want this other guy beating off next to me while watching my wife do this thing. Like if he was gone, that would be a lot better.
[00:22:46] Keith: Yeah.
[00:22:46] Mike: But I actually think it might even be better if it was just me and the other woman and not my wife.
[00:22:50] Keith: Right. I've long been confused about three sums with a long-term partner.
[00:22:58] Keith: I'm not gonna be interested in my long-term partner. like I'm sorry, but like the newness of whoever the other person is. I don't care if my partner's you know a 10 and this other person's a six.
[00:23:04] Mike: Right
[00:23:08] Keith: like The newness of it just makes her way, way, way more interesting to me. So what what am I getting from having my partner there? It's like, well, I don't think I would get anything. like I think I would empathize with them being bummed out that I'm not interested in them.
[00:23:22] Keith: And I would worry about how they're feeling and like, what are conversations the next day are going to be like, I don't want any of that noise. Like, just give me the other person, me and her, like you know good old fashioned twosome. And, but I think for some people, what, what you said is right.
[00:23:36] Keith: Like they, they like having their partner there being destroyed, you know, like having their, you know, sexual position in the world, like suddenly flashed before their eyes.
[00:23:46] Mike: Oh, you think you think they so you think there are men that in an MFF.
[00:23:46] Keith: Um,
[00:23:48] Keith: I don't think a woman likes it, but I think i think some men like the the the dominance of like, yeah, the power play, of of showing their partner that they're not you know the only thing they want or something.
[00:23:54] Mike: The power play. But and so there.
[00:24:04] Mike: along the same lines though, the so even if it was an MFF situation, ah even like, okay, even if it was your long-term girlfriend or wife or whatever, it says, okay, I'm fine with you, whatever, ethical non-monogamy, whatever.
[00:24:20] Mike: If she has to be present during the negotiation, like even like it from I think mentally it even destroys it for me that she's present at like the dinner beforehand.
[00:24:31] Mike: Because i I would want, I think in that situation, to seduce the woman without my long-term partner there.
[00:24:36] Keith: Yes.
[00:24:38] Mike: like i would want This is the point is I think that the male fantasy actually is to cheat.
[00:24:39] Keith: Yes.
[00:24:43] Keith: yes it's that The seduction is a huge part of it.
[00:24:46] Mike: Right.
[00:24:46] Keith: I don't know if it's actually to cheat. it's yeah like If my partner really wanted me to be maximally actualized, she would say,
[00:24:49] Mike: Yeah, you wouldn't want to feel bad that you'd wrong someone. That's true.
[00:25:01] Keith: You can do whatever you need to do to go get laid. And if that means you need to like seduce the person and go on a few dates, like that's fine. Um, that's what I would like to hear, but no partner is actually going to say that what, what I think women imagine.
[00:25:14] Mike: Well, they might say it, but they wouldn't, they wouldn't believe it. They might say it, but it would be very painful for them because it would be, yeah, they don't want that.
[00:25:18] Keith: Right. would When women give their, their partner a hall pass. They're imagining that ah much like they could, the man can go on Tinder and just find somebody and then, you know, it wouldn't be, it wouldn't really be seducing. It would just be, you know, mechanically a physical thing because that's available to women.
[00:25:42] Keith: Women can just go on Tinder and say like, hey, I'm married, um I'm just looking to have casual sex with somebody, you know here's my number.
[00:25:43] Mike: Right.
[00:25:49] Keith: And they would have 100 people call him that day. But a man can't do that.
[00:25:53] Mike: Right.
[00:25:54] Keith: And a man, I think, wouldn't want to do that. heat the half the well At least for me, the fun would be in seducing the other person. And then you know you get into all kinds of ethics here, which is,
[00:26:04] Mike: Right.
[00:26:08] Keith: Do I need to tell that other person that, you know, I'm, I'm taken. Um.
[00:26:13] Mike: Well, that's deeply problematic because as we've discussed in the past, when you were in an ethically non-monogamous situation, I don't know if you are now, but when you were in the past, the problem is if you have to reveal that to the other person, then it just...
[00:26:19] Keith: Yeah.
[00:26:29] Mike: Actually, you know what it is. It destroys the fantasy for the woman because the fantasy for the woman is, oh, I really like this guy. We're going to have a long-term relationship. And so you're basically taking that away from them.
[00:26:36] Keith: Right. Right.
[00:26:39] Mike: And then it makes it impossible to seduce them because now it's just transactional. Like the whole thing falls apart.
[00:26:42] Keith: Yes, yes i've I've choked in the past. I don't think I've said this on the podcast, but the the ethical part of ethical non-monogamy is in reference to your long-term partner. It's almost definitionally unethical to the third person and in that like they almost have to be lied to in either in order for the man to be like maximally maximally actualized.
[00:26:58] Mike: Yeah.
[00:27:05] Mike: I mean, they don't like, there are women that might say, oh, I want to be an open polygamous, whatever polyamorous rather situations.
[00:27:05] Keith: Now,
[00:27:11] Keith: Yes, but but they're not going to be, if you apply that filter to the to the pool of people who are willing to sleep with a with a taken man, like it it went from like slim to like almost literally none in terms of like people who are attracted.
[00:27:25] Mike: You're going to get a, I'll tell you this with that set of women, you're going to get a lot of body hair.
[00:27:31] Keith: Yeah, and potentially a lot of body fat too.
[00:27:34] Mike: True.
[00:27:34] Keith: ah
[00:27:35] Mike: A lot of ah secondary sexual characteristics. um
[00:27:41] Keith: It's the second thing we've we've said today that's going to get us canceled, but oh well.
[00:27:41] Mike: Yeah, that's right.
[00:27:44] Mike: since Yeah, but this it's sort of like, this is the thing.
[00:27:45] Keith: Happy 2025.
[00:27:49] Mike: It's like a guy. And I mean, I think women also, when they cheat, like that yeah There's a similar thing. like this is like The actual fantasy that's desired it's it's hard is is is to cheat, is to is to yeah have this person. i mean i like If that were possible somehow, like it'd probably be very compelling to you, for example, to have a consistent partner, but then you still get to go out and date and somehow it doesn't matter. like Somehow everybody's okay with it.
[00:28:12] Keith: ah here's
[00:28:13] Mike: um
[00:28:14] Keith: I've done this thought this thought exercise. My partner should be okay with me doing that. She should be confident that she's cool enough and compelling enough and intriguing enough to me that even if I went out and met other people, ah she would still rise to the top.
[00:28:33] Keith: And if she's worried that she's not, isn't that just selfish? she's just I thought she loved me. I thought that she cared about me living my best life. It sounds like she's trying to stop me from living my best.
[00:28:42] Mike: Well, I mean, okay.
[00:28:45] Keith: She should want me to go out and like constantly test whether she's the best.
[00:28:51] Mike: I've discussed this with my wife before.
[00:28:51] Keith: I mean, nobody thinks like this, but.
[00:28:54] Mike: i've I've discussed this with my wife before and what she says is like, look, the problem is that the women are going to be super adversarial. And so the point is they are going to try it. Like the other woman's goal is going to be to
[00:29:05] Keith: Break me up.
[00:29:06] Mike: like this is to get to get you like as ah as a permanent partner and and like you know this in that it's so common for the other woman to just stick around waiting for the guy to get divorced or whatever like this is a thing that happens very commonly because that's their goal and they will do and and look women don't and I understand this and respect it actually women don't want to be put in this like never-endingly adversarial position where there's constantly this this cadre of other women trying to like be like no I'm better I'm better you know and yeah it's a shitty way to live
[00:29:08] Keith: Yeah.
[00:29:16] Keith: Right.
[00:29:33] Keith: I think it is a shitty way to live. Aren't there some women that are, you know, several standard deviations out on the, you know, attractiveness scale that they shouldn't, they wouldn't feel threatened, threatened by it.
[00:29:50] Mike: No, because I'll tell you, like ah let's say you're 40 and you're married to a 40-year-old woman,
[00:29:57] Keith: Yeah.
[00:29:58] Mike: there' i mean and a and ah ah very attractive 22-year-old hits on you, wants to have sex with you, basically all men will do that. like it's just They're just going to lose.
[00:30:05] Keith: Of course.
[00:30:06] Mike: like that's not yeah so it's
[00:30:07] Keith: Yes, but she should be fine with me sleeping with other people. That makes me happier.
[00:30:13] Mike: Yeah, but no, I don't think it works that way because the, ah I really strongly think it doesn't work that way because the reality is that the lifestyle that you could have with the 22 year old, let's say you have kids, so on and so forth, the lifestyle you could have with the 22 year old just is more fun.
[00:30:27] Mike: And so like, she's just gonna lose, like she can't, the 40 year old simply cannot compete with that, right?
[00:30:27] Keith: Yeah.
[00:30:33] Mike: Like, now I mean, in the long term, she could, because it's like, you know, there's more to life than just having fun a little bit, but like, yeah, I mean, you the 22 year old has like no, responsibilities. She can just go wherever, do whatever, and it's and have fun.
[00:30:45] Keith: Yeah.
[00:30:45] Mike: and like you so it's always yeah On every level, including the physical attractiveness is going to appear better. but down There are downsides, but like they're not.
[00:30:55] Keith: I mean, should you want, okay.
[00:30:55] Mike: There are things that these shallow man might miss.
[00:30:57] Keith: Okay. So you're making an argument that the woman should basically entrap their man into a situation that he's unhappy with.
[00:31:08] Mike: Well, but there are different, I mean, there are different like levels of happiness, right? There's like people, you know, there's stability, there's like comfort, there's situations that where you kind of know the people and so on and so forth.
[00:31:12] Keith: Yeah.
[00:31:16] Keith: Yeah.
[00:31:19] Mike: And then there's just like day to day, like, do I get to do fun things? And yeah, I mean, on the second one, yes.
[00:31:23] Keith: Right. like there's Yeah, there's hedonism versus but some sort of longer term view.
[00:31:27] Mike: and exactly he It's not exactly hedonism. because i mean it's there could be things There could be things that are more substantial, like the 22 year old probably also wants to like go to museums and travel. and stuff you know what i mean so like it doesn't have to be I guess maybe that's hedonism.
[00:31:37] Keith: Yeah.
[00:31:40] Mike: um but yeah it's i mean sort of i mean yes sort of like women have to get you yeah To be married, you have to give something up as a guy.
[00:31:48] Keith: Yeah.
[00:31:49] Mike: and so I'm not clear what the woman gives up yet. I'm still working on that one. But the man has to give up stuff.
[00:31:54] Keith: Right.
[00:31:55] Mike: The man woman has to give up access to all that good dick.
[00:31:56] Keith: Yeah, I don't.
[00:31:59] Keith: Yeah, but women just aren't as intrinsically promiscuous as I think men are. That's probably controversial, but
[00:32:07] Mike: Yeah. I mean, the woman's, the woman's, I'll tell you what the woman's, a thing, the woman is giving up when she gets married is she's giving up her ability to in the marketplace, find a better guy, right? So she's basically saying, okay, this is as good as I'm going to get. And that is really giving something up. Like, so a super attractive 22 year old,
[00:32:25] Mike: has a very strong incentive to like date around until she can find like a really high quality guy and she would be giving up like more, you know, looking for an even better guy. Um, that reminds me, I saw on a YouTube short, which I'm not using, but I saw one, uh, Steffi Graff, the tennis player, there was a short where she, somebody yelled, Steffi, will you marry me?
[00:32:44] Keith: Yeah.
[00:32:47] Mike: This is like in the early nineties and she like laughed and then sat with the ball, you know, between points or whatever.
[00:32:49] Keith: Yeah.
[00:32:52] Mike: And then she yelled back, how much money do you have? So there you go.
[00:32:57] Keith: That's a very German and pragmatic.
[00:32:59] Mike: Yes.
[00:33:00] Keith: Yeah. I really liked Steffiograph. I had a huge crush on her growing up.
[00:33:05] Mike: Yeah.
[00:33:05] Keith: Did you know, so she's married to Andre Agassi. Did you know that Andre Agassi was wearing a wig?
[00:33:12] Mike: When he played tennis, like that long hair was a wig.
[00:33:13] Keith: Yes. Yes.
[00:33:15] Mike: Shut up. Really?
[00:33:16] Keith: I'm serious.
[00:33:18] Mike: That sounds, that's really dumb because it would have affected his play probably. Like he'd it'd be hot and stuff. Huh.
[00:33:23] Keith: ah Yeah, Andre Agassi wore a ah hairpiece to hide his receding hairline in the 1990s. He admitted to wearing the wig in his 2010 book called Open.
[00:33:33] Mike: That's really surprising. During, when he was playing tennis, he did that because you would think a professional athlete would just be like, look, I don't care what I look like.
[00:33:36] Keith: Yes.
[00:33:39] Mike: I'm just going to win.
[00:33:40] Keith: Well, and he was so famous for his hair, too. um So it's...
[00:33:44] Mike: Yeah.
[00:33:45] Keith: the irony there is...
[00:33:45] Mike: Yeah. Maybe he, maybe he knew he was never going to be number one really. And he just wanted to make endorsement money.
[00:33:51] Keith: Yeah, Pete Sampras was in the way.
[00:33:51] Mike: Could be.
[00:33:54] Mike: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:33:55] Keith: um
[00:33:55] Mike: He wasn't quite at the top.
[00:33:56] Keith: Yeah. OK, I had a couple ah blowjob topics.
[00:34:01] Mike: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:02] Keith: um And maybe we could talk about some blowjob trouble in my own life. But OK, let's do these two topics first.
[00:34:13] Keith: OK. ah This approach person says, I gagged on his dick and vomited. I tried to deep throat, but apparently I do have a gag reflex and I totally projectile vomited on his bedroom floor. He was a gentleman and said, quote, it happens, but I don't think it really does. Has this ever actually happened to anyone else? So I don't think Like deep throating is kind of fun, but I think the thing that makes, okay, I'm sort of new to really paying attention to what I like from blow jobs.
[00:34:50] Keith: For decades, basically, I was blow job a verse. I would occasionally, you know, I'm gonna use a funny verb here, allow my partners to give me a blow job, but I never really sought it out and I was mostly avoidant.
[00:34:54] Mike: Mmhmm.
[00:35:05] Keith: And so I didn't really know what I liked about blow jobs and what I didn't, but over the last two years in particular, I've been trying to be more open-minded with various partners.
[00:35:16] Keith: And yeah, like when she takes all of me so that I'm like pushing on the back of her throat It's like a, it feels fine, but I think the thing that I like more is when my penis is like half or a third of the way in her mouth, and then she's using her hand to sort of stroke the rest of my shaft.
[00:35:42] Mike: Wait, so I just want to clarify something here. So let's just, so we get the terms right here. When she's, when you feel the back of her throat, can you describe in a little more detail what like the last inch of penetrating her mouth feels like for you?
[00:35:55] Keith: Yeah, I don't know exactly. And, ah you know, maybe this is going to lead to like a ah length discussion here, but ah I feel like, because we've talked about this before and and you always describe, and I don't remember exactly what you describe, but I remember it not comporting with my experience.
[00:36:04] Mike: No, it isn't. That was not my plan. That was not my plan. No.
[00:36:15] Mike: Hm.
[00:36:19] Keith: And so I've been like really paying attention since then to see like, okay, is this because You know, I'm not as long or am I just not paying attention or like what's going on here? And I think when, you know, I bury my cock to the hilt in her mouth, uh, I hit some sort of thing. It it feels like,
[00:36:45] Keith: I don't know, like a, like a, I'm going to sound like ah Steve Carell here. It feels like, you know, bags of sand. It's like a, a membrane of some kind and it, and it has a little bit of give to it, but I can't really feel like, I don't think I have enough nerve endings on my penis or maybe I'm not reaching the thing.
[00:37:06] Keith: I'm not, I'm not sure which it is.
[00:37:06] Mike: Yeah.
[00:37:09] Mike: Yeah. I mean, it's going to be a combination of your anatomy and the giver's anatomy, but it is certainly possible during a blowjob to have your penis go into the esophagus.
[00:37:09] Keith: Um,
[00:37:20] Keith: Yes.
[00:37:22] Mike: What that feels like is it has a different angle and it you feel that the head of your penis is going through some other orifice.
[00:37:33] Keith: But there's some orifice, which is like, I guess the tonsils, not the, the tonsils are the thing that, that the tonsils hang down from the back.
[00:37:39] Mike: Well, that's just a structure, yeah. No, that's the epiglottis.
[00:37:44] Keith: Oh boy. Here's that's a new word to me at the glottis.
[00:37:46] Mike: yeah yeah Tonsils are just on, tonsils are sort of on the lower left and right of your throat and those can get swollen when you're um when you're ah sick and you know in the 50s, 60s, 70s, I think my mom had them removed and then they grew back or something. Tonsils are probably like a lymph node or something.
[00:38:05] Keith: Yeah.
[00:38:06] Mike: ah So they can get inflamed and people used to think, oh, if you're, and I think there are cases where people still get them removed because the issue is I think they can obstruct your breathing and swallowing and stuff. um
[00:38:16] Keith: What is the soft palette? That's the thing on the
[00:38:19] Mike: that's this the back That's just the back of the top of your throat, your your your mouth.
[00:38:23] Keith: Okay, I think maybe that's what I'm hitting.
[00:38:26] Mike: Yeah.
[00:38:26] Keith: And then if you can, you can get between, I'm looking at a picture here and we should link to this.
[00:38:27] Mike: Yeah.
[00:38:31] Keith: You can get between the soft palate and this epiglottis. And that's how you get into the esophagus, but it looks like you would need to have like the right angle here.
[00:38:41] Mike: Yeah, I mean, it's the way it feels is basically. Yeah, the woman sort of like pushes her mouth down over you and like you can tell. You can tell that there's some other structure you're entering and I'm not ah to be honest, I'm not saying that it's a great thing or anything like that.
[00:38:56] Keith: Okay.
[00:38:58] Mike: It's it's sort of hot in that like she's.
[00:39:01] Keith: It's submissive.
[00:39:02] Mike: Really doing something aggressive with her body. Yeah, it's very submissive.
[00:39:05] Keith: Yeah.
[00:39:06] Mike: It's like she's doing this thing I don't imagine that it's like hyper comfortable I don't know if it's just I mean, I know that there are porn stars that use like that throat spray that people use for ah sore throats to like numb it so they don't to stop to stop a what is it choking and um vomiting and stuff like that, ah but um
[00:39:18] Keith: Numb. Yeah.
[00:39:26] Mike: Yeah, I mean, there is a separate feeling that you can have there. I generally agree with your broad point that like the tongue and lips are the most compelling organs to ah massage your penis.
[00:39:42] Mike: But there is something that like can happen here that's like kind of like it actually does sort of pop in like it can sort of pop into her throat.
[00:39:42] Keith: i yeah i think i think i have not I think I'm hitting the soft palette.
[00:39:48] Mike: And that's like very it's very submissive and makes you feel very dominant and and
[00:39:56] Keith: I think that's what's happening.
[00:39:57] Mike: Yeah, that's probably right. Yeah. So you're hitting like the back of her mouth, but you're not actually going you're actually correct.
[00:40:02] Keith: yeah i don't think
[00:40:02] Mike: You would feel it and it curves downward. Like if she's facing you, it's going to in your standing up or something, it's going to curve downward.
[00:40:07] Keith: Is it easier to do if she's hanging off the bed sort of upside down and I'm, yeah, I've, I've tried that.
[00:40:15] Mike: People say it is, yeah.
[00:40:18] Mike: Although i what I actually think that does is I think that actually makes it so that yeah theres there's less of ah an angle there.
[00:40:20] Keith: and
[00:40:26] Mike: And so you would feel it less when you're sort of entering that part of her throat it to the extent that you are.
[00:40:32] Keith: Right.
[00:40:32] Mike: I mean, look, you could figure out what's going on. I mean, if you had a very willing partner, you could figure out what's going on just by simply taking a smaller object that's the size of your penis and just seeing it like just looking how far it goes into her mouth.
[00:40:43] Mike: Or you could do with your own mouth. You know what I mean? Like which just with a mirror or something, you'd be like, well, you know, how deep would this go? And it might just be like there probably is
[00:40:50] Keith: Yeah, I can get a banana that's the same length as my cock.
[00:40:53] Mike: Yeah.
[00:40:53] Keith: And then, yeah.
[00:40:54] Mike: Well, even something thinner like a pencil. I mean, because the point is you're just trying to figure out where it goes. And and it's not just the man's penis size. It's going to be the woman's mouth structure as well that are going to be relevant here. I wanted to say um For this the the the question, of the post that you read, when I was in college, my freshman year, freshman year, college, this is so bad, ah there was this girl in my hall who took to a very athletic attractive man in my hall and wanted to give him a blow job.
[00:41:09] Keith: Yeah.
[00:41:20] Mike: And it was a freshman hall, so like people would sort of sit out in the hall with the doors like kind of a little bit open so you could kind of hear what was going on in the rooms.
[00:41:26] Keith: Yeah.
[00:41:28] Mike: And she gave him a blow job in the their dorm room. and did this. She vomited all over the place and everybody heard it. So everybody's like, oh, you know, they thought she was in trouble.
[00:41:36] Keith: Yeah.
[00:41:38] Mike: And so if there was like, I wasn't there, but apparently like five people like crowded in and saw her just vomiting all over his pelvis, you know, his lap.
[00:41:38] Keith: Yeah.
[00:41:45] Keith: I mean, that's kind of a great story for that guy.
[00:41:48] Mike: It's really embarrassing.
[00:41:50] Keith: No, it's horrible for her, but for the guy, it's like, yeah, like, My cock was so imposing to her that it like caused this reaction.
[00:41:52] Mike: but Yeah.
[00:41:58] Mike: I mean, it's yeah, but like, it's not, I don't know, it's sad.
[00:42:02] Keith: Well, yes, it's mostly awful.
[00:42:04] Mike: He later married another girl from that hall who was there when it happened. So obviously it didn't destroy his ability to get laid.
[00:42:08] Keith: Oh, Jesus.
[00:42:13] Keith: He must have been quite to the specimen.
[00:42:16] Mike: He was and is, I guess, and yeah from a wealthy family and stuff.
[00:42:17] Keith: Yeah.
[00:42:19] Mike: But like, ah yeah, I mean, I think this is a thing that happens. Women have to sort of know what they can tolerate.
[00:42:26] Keith: Yeah. I feel like, I mean, I don't have much experience other than, you know, when I drink way too much, um, I don't normally throw up unless I and stick a couple of fingers down my throat and inspire myself to, but I have to like kind of work at it to make that happen.
[00:42:41] Mike: Yeah.
[00:42:44] Keith: So it's hard for me to imagine this like sneaking up on people. maybe Maybe it doesn't sneak up. They're like, okay, I feel like I'm going to vomit, but I'm really going to give it the old college try here and do my best.
[00:42:56] Keith: And then it gets away from them and then they throw up.
[00:42:58] Mike: Oh, that's definitely right. I know, I know that because I've taken an object, I think it was a banana and try and put it in my mouth and like, yeah, like the problem is, look, I mean, when women take your penis, no matter what size your penis is, unless it's really small, all the way in their mouth, like there's constant kind of ga gag type stimulation.
[00:43:15] Keith: Yeah.
[00:43:15] Mike: Are you, are you with a partner that's interested in being gagged? Are you with with the partner you're talking about? Interest in being gagged? You're just interested in like seeing what's possible comfortably.
[00:43:24] Keith: What is gagged mean in this context?
[00:43:26] Mike: Well, having this experience, having this feeling of like, I'm going to throw up, like some women, some, some people don't mind it. Some people that they're women that claim they have no gag reflex, whatever that means. I mean, everybody has a gag reflex, but maybe they've tamed it somehow.
[00:43:39] Keith: Yeah, of course.
[00:43:40] Mike: But you were just, I asked that because you were describing like trying it with a partner, lying with their back on the bed with their head off.
[00:43:47] Keith: Yeah.
[00:43:48] Mike: I mean, is this something that this partner is wanting to try to get it as deep as possible?
[00:43:53] Keith: I think this hypothetical partner would, ah
[00:44:03] Keith: yeah, I think she's interested in being submissive generally. She likes situations where, yeah, I'm dominant.
[00:44:11] Mike: Hmm.
[00:44:14] Keith: so And so I think she's sort of exploring that.
[00:44:15] Mike: Yeah. It does seem like something that a part that a woman who's interested in that maybe should try with a dildo or something that's around the same size as you are by herself, just because this is so embarrassing to have something shitty happen so she can get some idea of, you know, it's like it reminds me a little bit of like anal sex and like women, you know, there's an incentive to like make sure that, I mean, I also, yeah, I mean, there are various anal sex adventures that you can have that women get embarrassed by for obvious reasons.
[00:44:46] Mike: And so, you know, it makes sense for them by themselves to sort of explore and make sure they understand what's going on there. And this is kind of the same, right?
[00:44:51] Keith: Yeah, gosh, I, I'd never thought of this before, but if I were a woman and I were about to have my first anal encounter, I think I would want to try with a dildo first to see.
[00:45:05] Mike: Yeah.
[00:45:07] Keith: Cause like, look, it's it's happening. And if I do it with the dildo first, I can see how painful it is. I can see whether there's poop on it. I could do, I could just check various things in advance.
[00:45:19] Mike: Yeah, see how easy it is to relax so that it's not super painful, like what type of lubricant to use, like there's all these things.
[00:45:21] Keith: Yeah.
[00:45:25] Mike: Yeah.
[00:45:25] Keith: Yeah.
[00:45:25] Mike: By the way, I didn't mention this at the top, but over the holiday, I got an email. ah This is going to sound not possible, but it's true. I got an email to my YMMVpod account, which is linked to the YouTube channel.
[00:45:37] Keith: Uh-huh. Yes.
[00:45:39] Mike: ah from a company offering me free sex toys. And so I'm like, okay.
[00:45:43] Keith: Wow. Again.
[00:45:44] Mike: Yeah, I was like, okay. Well, the last one wanted me to write reviews, which I didn't, like it was just too much effort because then they like, I wrote a review and then they were like, that's not good enough. And I was like, come on, it's ridiculous.
[00:45:56] Mike: um So this one was like, no,
[00:45:56] Keith: I remember, I remember you ultimately wrote them a good review. I remember.
[00:46:01] Mike: Yeah, I think I had chat GBT read a lot of it, but it was just too much work.
[00:46:04] Keith: Yeah.
[00:46:04] Mike: I mean, it's, yeah, to your point about like the $3 for the ebook, uh, having to spend two hours writing reviews for like a $25 sex toy is not, doesn't, I mean, it's fun to get it for free, but I mean, I wasn't getting it for free.
[00:46:12] Keith: Right.
[00:46:16] Mike: This, these people said it was for free.
[00:46:17] Keith: Right.
[00:46:18] Mike: They said, Hey, buy it on Amazon and we'll just send you PayPal with the money. So I didn't buy it, I just ah she sent sent them the price. No, sorry, I did actually buy it, but I was ready to return it, and then they immediately PayPal'd me the money.
[00:46:30] Mike: So the thing I got, you're gonna like this, I've not used it yet.
[00:46:30] Keith: hu To make it thicker.
[00:46:34] Mike: The thing I got was one of those sleeves to make your penis bigger. The thing that we know is like the worst toy. Yeah, yeah, thicker and longer.
[00:46:43] Keith: Huh.
[00:46:44] Mike: Because we know that's the worst, because I was like, they had like a list of toys, and I was like, all right, I'll get the one that like is the thing you're not supposed to get.
[00:46:49] Keith: Yeah, the the one that's like, ah yeah, worldview shattering.
[00:46:53] Mike: It's the danger zone toy. And I told told my wife, I was like, yeah, I got the, so, and and apparently I think I can get more toys.
[00:46:59] Keith: I don't think you should use it.
[00:46:59] Mike: So if, if your girlfriend or whatever, your partner, whoever we're talking about here, once a dildo or a toy, I might be able to get one for free. Although they only cost 20 bucks.
[00:47:07] Keith: I don't think you should try.
[00:47:08] Mike: You think I shouldn't use it.
[00:47:10] Keith: there's no There's so little upside and so much downside that it's just...
[00:47:14] Mike: I don't care. I don't care.
[00:47:16] Keith: um what if thing What if every time you have sex for the rest of your life, your wife's like...
[00:47:17] Mike: It'll be funny. I'm confident in my size. Uh, I think my guess is what, you know,
[00:47:26] Keith: Or like, you know she wants you to use it. So even the times when you don't, you know she's wishing you did. Like, it just seems like this this terrible slippery slope.
[00:47:36] Mike: i don't okay so I'm going to be totally honest with you. I don't think that's how I would feel about it. so so i As listeners to the show know, I am of the view that generally women in sex, PIV sex, get most of the benefit from clitoral stimulation, and that's my general view.
[00:47:53] Mike: They like being penetrated, but it's mostly the other.
[00:47:54] Keith: Yeah.
[00:47:56] Mike: So a couple possibilities.
[00:47:56] Keith: Yeah.
[00:47:58] Mike: One is that there are the possibilities which I think are more likely that it just makes it annoying and like you have to use lube and stuff because it's now a piece of rubber and stuff.
[00:48:03] Keith: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:48:04] Mike: That's what I actually think will happen. But let's say we follow down your thing and it's like I have this thing and I and she just like gets like a massive orgasm from it. The way I would feel actually is not. um Oh, I'm an inadequate.
[00:48:16] Mike: I'd be like excited. i'd Be like, Oh, that's cool. There's like another thing we can do.
[00:48:18] Keith: Yeah. Now we know this new thing in our bag of tricks.
[00:48:19] Mike: I wouldn't. Yeah. I'm like confident enough that I wouldn't care about that. Like, but I understand. Like, I think this is mostly when guys are a little undersized. Um, but yeah, like, I mean, I don't, I think it's really unlikely because I just like, I don't think the women's anatomy is likely to be set up that way.
[00:48:35] Mike: But if you have a very small penis. Yeah. I mean, then like it could be that one of these devices makes her feel like she's being filled. in a way that she doesn't usually that. Then if, if I had a small penis, I probably avoid it.
[00:48:44] Keith: Yeah, I mean, the counter argument's the same thing, like at least then you would have a tool to satisfy her.
[00:48:46] Mike: Yeah.
[00:48:54] Mike: Yeah, but if you needed it every single time, I just think like the the the chance that this would be an every single time thing is like zero, basically. i And this goes back to the thing is I just don't think women care about curating their orgasmic experience the way men do.
[00:49:00] Keith: Yeah.
[00:49:06] Mike: like men men don't I think men have a harder time getting into the mind of a woman. Like a woman's just not going to do that. Be like, oh, get out. Although although you do read about men, women who always need the vibrator and the guys get tired of so it.
[00:49:18] Mike: So I don't know. The vibrators are sort of different. The vibrators are so effective.
[00:49:23] Keith: Right.
[00:49:23] Mike: i don't know I'm willing to take the risk, ah but there was like a grid of other toys. They had like one that suctions onto your vulva and licks your clit.
[00:49:32] Keith: How?
[00:49:33] Mike: Just like I said, it's like kind of like a ah cup, kind of an oval shaped cup that then you suction on there and it's got this thing that looks like a tongue.
[00:49:38] Keith: Uh-huh.
[00:49:42] Mike: So it sort of makes the rubber, yeah, silicon rubber something.
[00:49:43] Keith: What is it made out of? Silicon?
[00:49:47] Mike: You can look these things up on Amazon, but yeah, though the woman I sent her, she said, hey, she sent me the money and it I immediately, immediately with, as you know me well, within like 10 seconds transferred it to my bank account.
[00:49:58] Mike: So she couldn't take the money back.
[00:50:00] Keith: Right, yeah.
[00:50:00] Mike: It's like $25 and um ah she's Did you send it back We could I forget I forget the story I remember generally that there's so so there's some guy you took money from that We wait, let's see we you don't want to talk about this on the show, right?
[00:50:03] Keith: that's sort of ah That's what I did that time that guy accidentally sent me $2,000.
[00:50:10] Keith: No.
[00:50:17] Keith: I didn't take money from him, he sent it to me. Yeah, we'll talk about it offline.
[00:50:25] Mike: Okay. Uh, so it sounds, it's a funny story. Uh, people can, can imagine. Um, but she then sent me a thing saying, Hey, if you want other toys, like, just let us know.
[00:50:30] Keith: Yeah.
[00:50:34] Mike: And I was like, all right, let me look at the menu. So, but I assume that any partner you have would be interested in purchasing their own toys.
[00:50:38] Keith: Huh.
[00:50:42] Mike: So, and a banana would work just as well for this.
[00:50:44] Keith: Well, nobody wants used toys, but...
[00:50:46] Mike: No, it would never be used. It would be new in the box, but the point is I can get it for free.
[00:50:50] Keith: Huh.
[00:50:51] Mike: But I don't know how many I can get but I put but I could probably get like I'm guessing I get like three or four more I think what they're doing is they want five-star reviews on Amazon and they're just like They just got a list of people and they're willing to give away stuff to get it Right,
[00:50:51] Keith: Okay, all right, we can talk about that all tonight, too.
[00:51:01] Keith: Yeah, I mean, it's like for us, we like you know we used to try to pay people to give us um ah Apple podcast reviews and yeah, it's the same.
[00:51:13] Mike: right Yeah
[00:51:16] Keith: um Okay, here's another blow job thing, ah sort of. My boyfriend has talked about the idea of cockwarming and I think it's super sexy. I will attempt this soon on his cock, but with my mouth.
[00:51:29] Keith: I've heard of the term cockwarming from him, and I'm very interested in trying it out with my boyfriend, and I and i have ideas. When he plays games or watches TV, I want to put my mouth on it and suckle it for a long time.
[00:51:40] Keith: Have any other girls tried this out with their partners? I'm just very curious because I want to try it out now. Sounds super sexy, but does your jaw get numb?
[00:51:48] Mike: It's really hard for guys to answer that.
[00:51:49] Keith: I don't... I don't understand even what she's proposing.
[00:51:55] Mike: I think the guy's cock would get soft. I don't think I would stay hard. So, okay. So sorry. When I was in college, I did something like this with a partner where she wanted to, like, we were going to sleep in the same bed.
[00:52:08] Mike: I never liked sleeping in the same bed with my girlfriend in college because I always felt like I should be at college not pretending I was married. Uh, but when I would do it.
[00:52:17] Keith: Huh.
[00:52:20] Mike: Uh, I, she, there, there was a time when she wanted to like lie there with my cock in her mouth and I think it stayed hard for like two minutes.
[00:52:30] Keith: I think it's like um yeah our sense of smell. Like when you first enter like a nursery and you smell all the the roses or whatever, it's really powerful and you have a reaction to it.
[00:52:38] Mike: Yeah.
[00:52:41] Keith: But three minutes later and you don't even notice it anymore, right? Like our we're we're sensitive we're sensitive to like changes and so in olfactory stimulation.
[00:52:45] Mike: Unless, yeah.
[00:52:49] Mike: Right.
[00:52:50] Keith: And I think it's the same with cock stimulation.
[00:52:54] Mike: I think, I think there's a very real risk here also. So, so it's going to, you're going to, you're going to, so, you know, there's that old tale of like, if you put a person who's sleeping's hand in a cup of warm water, they'll urinate in the bed.
[00:53:07] Keith: Yeah.
[00:53:07] Mike: I think there's a very real risk here of that. So I mean, there's a couple of things. One is that she'll probably twitch her mouth enough that it'll be just be annoying for him because it'll keep stimulating him.
[00:53:14] Keith: Right.
[00:53:15] Mike: But even if it doesn't do that, like she might just get a mouthful of piss. Like there's a decent chance of that.
[00:53:21] Keith: Huh. Yeah, maybe.
[00:53:24] Mike: Also, there's like not really a good position to do this in like it's not it's I think it's a pretty stupid idea.
[00:53:30] Keith: What does she want? She just wants the bonding.
[00:53:36] Mike: Yeah, she's trying to become one with him. Yeah.
[00:53:41] Keith: OK.
[00:53:42] Mike: It's the most annoying thing. For me.
[00:53:46] Keith: I think I have something more annoying for you. Are you ready?
[00:53:49] Mike: Yeah.
[00:53:49] Keith: All right. This woman writes, he gave me a back massage while still inside of me, which was the hottest thing I've ever experienced. I've recently started seeing this guy who I really like.
[00:54:00] Keith: We hooked up for the first time last week. And when we were doing doggy, he gave me a back massage while still inside of me. After, we finished with him on top of me with just straight eye contact, four heads together. kissing each other and just enjoying each other's company. It was the most incredible experience. What other things have you come across that we could try to enhance sensuality like this? um I thought that the intimacy and connection here would be repulsive to you.
[00:54:25] Mike: I mean, the back massage part, the way I interpret that is the guy knows, you sort of know when you're fucking a girl in doggy style that she's not getting the level of stimulation that she probably wants.
[00:54:39] Mike: Meaning like, yeah, she's like, nice like you're you're sort of i it's it's it's the closest you can get with a partner to like a glory hole.
[00:54:40] Keith: Yes.
[00:54:48] Mike: I mean, you're just holding her hips and she's over there somewhere. And so he's so I feel like what's going on is he's trying to amp up the intimacy because she he's worried about the relationship. he yeah and then And then he follows on with like amped up intimacy around the fucking part, the missionary fucking part. Go ahead.
[00:55:08] Keith: Yeah, I had a girlfriend once who joked that she really liked giving me back rubs because When she was giving me back rubs, I would be like on my best behavior.
[00:55:18] Keith: Like I would be way less mean. And I would always be engaged in whatever she was saying. And yeah, it's because I don't want the back rub to end.
[00:55:23] Mike: during the back rub.
[00:55:27] Mike: That's right.
[00:55:27] Keith: So I'm just being as polite as I possibly can saying whatever she wants to hear until I keep the back rub going.
[00:55:34] Mike: Yeah.
[00:55:34] Keith: And so, yeah.
[00:55:36] Mike: Yeah. Uh, you know, when I was in high school, good.
[00:55:36] Keith: But yeah, you're probably right. he's just trying to prolong the doggy style or like yeah he's trying to make it like somewhat more compelling for her so he's just decided to rub her back i don't think
[00:55:46] Mike: Yeah. He feels, yeah. He's like, he knows that it's not, And and to truth be told, like I don't know. I mean, she seems like she was really happy with that. So I guess it worked. um It's too bad that the fucking isn't enough.
[00:56:01] Keith: Yeah. Like if I were having sex with someone, let's say I'm in, you know, we're in missionary position and you know, I'm going at it and a third person came along.
[00:56:14] Keith: I'm not sexually attracted to them. They're just like a professional masseuse. And they're like, Oh, would you like a back rub while you're having sex here? I think I would say no. Like it's just not interesting extra stimulation.
[00:56:27] Keith: I don't want to back rub while I'm sexually stimulated.
[00:56:27] Mike: It would be hard. It would be complicated because you're and generally the one having to do the moving, right? So you'd think, well, you're just going to lose contact with me repeatedly.
[00:56:33] Keith: yeah Yeah, there's some pragmatic issues.
[00:56:38] Mike: But would you hang on? But if it was ah another, let me ask you this.
[00:56:39] Keith: There are practical issues.
[00:56:42] Mike: You're fucking someone in missionary style.
[00:56:44] Keith: Uh-huh.
[00:56:45] Mike: And there's another, and I've wondered this before, there's another naked woman present who's willing to do whatever you want. What would you have her do?
[00:56:52] Mike: If anything.
[00:56:56] Mike: Like what could she do to your body that would be better than missionary sex that would enhance it?
[00:56:59] Keith: I don't even know if it would be to my body. Like it might be to stand above the head of the person that I'm fucking and play with her tits or play with herself.
[00:57:12] Mike: Hmm.
[00:57:13] Keith: Like pretend to be like, you know, really, uh, into watching me. Um,
[00:57:21] Mike: And would it be the same if it was doggy style?
[00:57:26] Keith: Is there something she could do like with my, with my balls or yeah.
[00:57:29] Mike: Well, let me give you a, let me give you a trope. Let me give you a trope to see if it compels you. One of the tropes you can see in porn is that the women are sort of in a 69 position while you're fucking the one that's on top doggy style.
[00:57:34] Keith: Yeah.
[00:57:41] Mike: And then after you come, the other woman eats the cum.
[00:57:46] Keith: Yeah.
[00:57:47] Mike: Would you be into that?
[00:57:48] Keith: Yeah. I think that would be good.
[00:57:50] Mike: Okay. So, so having her sort of there expectantly looking at your balls, waiting for the nut might work.
[00:57:51] Keith: Why not?
[00:57:54] Keith: Yeah, basically I want that third person to be visual stimulation and also massaging my my ego as an object of sexual desire.
[00:57:58] Mike: Yeah.
[00:58:01] Mike: Right. But there's nothing she can actually do. I mean, like, unless you were into anal, like receptive anal, there's really nothing she can do.
[00:58:09] Keith: Yeah, ah that that occurred to me, like if she could tongue my asshole, but I don't even know if I would like that.
[00:58:10] Mike: guess you Like you could.
[00:58:14] Mike: Yeah. yeah
[00:58:16] Keith: And again, there's the like issue of like losing contact. You know, it's like hard to imagine that working practically.
[00:58:22] Mike: Yeah. And if there was yet another woman, like it's really gets hard. I mean, in the VR porn, they have these porn tropes where there's like 30 women and you're fucking one of them.
[00:58:31] Keith: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:34] Mike: That's good. But the other ones, like, it's actually sort of interesting in the video. If you just focus on any of the other women in the audience, whatever you want to call it, the other women that are present because they don't have anything to do. So they're just encouraging you or they're just smiling.
[00:58:44] Keith: Yeah.
[00:58:46] Mike: It's like, all right.
[00:58:46] Keith: Yeah.
[00:58:49] Keith: Yeah.
[00:58:49] Mike: They're like cheerleaders. so
[00:58:50] Keith: I find often they're looking bored, but...
[00:58:53] Mike: Oh, of course. In reality, it's just super boring. And they're like, it's like you might have had this thought before, but, you know, oftentimes in amateur seeming whatever in porn generally, when the guy comes, the woman's super excited.
[00:58:56] Keith: Right.
[00:59:05] Mike: And I often have the thought she's actually excited because the scene's over.
[00:59:09] Keith: It's just like I get to go home and I could go to Olive Garden with my boyfriend now.
[00:59:10] Mike: She's getting her paycheck.
[00:59:14] Mike: Yeah.
[00:59:14] Keith: Yeah.
[00:59:14] Mike: Right. Like she's like so. But the thing is, she is genuinely excited because because it's over, not because she wanted the guy to come. So it's sort of along those lines.
[00:59:23] Keith: Right. Right.
[00:59:23] Mike: They're like, Oh, come as soon as you can.
[00:59:23] Keith: It's like 458 on the ah um the work clock. Yeah.
[00:59:27] Mike: Right. So that third and fourth woman in the room with you, that's probably actually what they're thinking. They're like, you know I want to get him off so fast.
[00:59:34] Keith: Right. Right.
[00:59:36] Mike: And the harder you come, the more you'll want me to leave the room afterward.
[00:59:36] Keith: um
[00:59:40] Mike: Cause you'll be, you'll be done with sex.
[00:59:43] Keith: Right. Yeah. Yeah. I really don't like that thing that you see in three or more partner porn where the women are like, what are they even supposed to do in a, in a, in a real situation? Let alone like ah a porn situation. Yeah. They're just like sitting there, stroking themselves sort of awkwardly.
[01:00:02] Mike: I think that I think that for the man, it's complicated. I think that for a woman, if a guy is fucking her missionary, she's masturbating herself and there's a woman like sitting on her face that could make the woman who's receiving missionary be pretty.
[01:00:15] Mike: I could see that being pretty compelling for her. But for the man, yeah, there's an i I guess if you were a man and the woman was on top and there was another woman over your face, that could be right.
[01:00:17] Keith: Yeah, sure.
[01:00:24] Mike: It's sort of like so I'm imagining triangles and the person on the bottom of the triangle is going to get the double stimulation.
[01:00:30] Keith: Yes.
[01:00:30] Mike: But it's sort of tricky otherwise. Like there's not, if you're upright, not much you can do.
[01:00:36] Keith: Yeah, there's no way to like make reliable contact with any part of me because so I'm moving.
[01:00:36] Mike: Yeah.
[01:00:40] Mike: Right. Exactly.
[01:00:41] Keith: Yeah.
[01:00:42] Mike: Yeah. That's, that's exactly the problem is that whoever, it's the motionless partner that can potentially have two people. Yeah.
[01:00:47] Keith: All right. All right. That will do it for this episode of Your Mileage May Vary. You can send us feedback or questions to ymmvpod at gmail dot.com. That's ymmvpod at gmail dot.com. We pay $10 for any feedback we receive. So just let us know your Venmo or PayPal or whatever. Thanks for listening, and we will catch you next week on Your Mileage May Vary.

YMMVYour Mileage May Vary

Episode 192: Sex Fantasies, Deep-Throating Mishaps, Swinger Dynamics, Clitoral Secrets, Back Massage Intimacy

Episode Transcript