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Episode 201: Weight and Desire, Post-Nut Reflections, Pegging Dynamics, Sexual Heuristics, Modern Courtship

Team YMMV | 4-4-2025 | 1:02:26

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This week, Keith and Mike attempt to rank the most important superficial traits that influence male sexual desire, beginning with a list that includes weight, ethnicity, facial attractiveness, figure, and everything else. What begins as an exercise in prioritization soon becomes a deep dive into personal biases, aesthetic heuristics, and a surprising amount of geometry. Keith provides a mechanical breakdown of sexual logistics with overweight partners, which leads to a somewhat academic discussion of bodily angles and the limitations of certain sexual positions. Mike contributes moral support, skepticism, and vivid analogies involving sport-fucking and Eastern European machinery.

From there, the conversation leads to the relationship between apparent enthusiasm during sex and perceived long-term viability as a partner. The hosts consider whether women might accidentally disqualify themselves from relationship consideration by enjoying themselves too much during a first hookup. They explore the intersection of perceived chastity, authenticity of arousal, and the complicated social signaling involved in early sexual encounters. At no point does anyone suggest that human mating psychology is simple, pleasant, or fair.

Later, the two evaluate a listener question involving pegging, face-sitting, and the limits of vulnerability in sexual dynamics. Mike posits that being a "vulnerable and whimpering mess" may carry a cost in perceived masculinity, especially outside the bedroom. Keith agrees, citing personal experiences and a fatherly punch in the film My Girl as evidence that competence and dominance remain socially desirable traits.

The show wraps up with a discussion of another listener whose girlfriend experiences post-sex disgust and sadness. Various hypotheses are considered, including religious shame, misaligned intimacy expectations, and the absence of orgasms. Mike, citing their podcasting experience as a credential, suggests that breaking up may be the simplest solution.

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

  • [00:00:01] Keith: Hello, and welcome to Your Mileage May Vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is often controversial, but mostly in good faith. I'm Keith. My co-host is Mike. ah Mike, you said you had a question for me?
  • [00:00:14] Mike: Yeah, OK, so i've got I've got what I think is ah i think it's something that you'll have some expertise on. So I was speaking with somebody yesterday.
  • [00:00:19] Keith: Hmm.
  • [00:00:22] Mike: who a woman, and we were discussing kind of what ah what a man looks for. What are the what are the top traits? Now, of course, a man looks for different things depending on if it's like, if you're in a bar and it's late and you're drunk versus on a dating app or something. But we were we were let's let's assume a man who's not drunk, who's you know genuinely trying to rank order women in terms of his interest. And we're talking purely the superficial aspects here.
  • [00:00:47] Keith: okay
  • [00:00:47] Mike: And I made a list of five things that I gave her, and I wanted to bounce these off of you to see how accurate you think this this list of five is.
  • [00:00:53] Keith: hu
  • [00:00:56] Mike: And this is a rank ordered list.
  • [00:00:57] Keith: Hold on. So we're vetting for um sexual desirability that purely?
  • [00:00:58] Mike: Yeah?
  • [00:01:00] Mike: Looks. Yes.
  • [00:01:03] Keith: Okay, so it's not like...
  • [00:01:03] Mike: oh Is there any other desirability?
  • [00:01:05] Keith: um
  • [00:01:08] Keith: Well, i mean, I've famously joked in the past that you know i would choose... a 9.1 over a 9, even if the 9.1 was a neo-Nazi.
  • [00:01:19] Keith: like ah My brain is so hyper-focused on physical attractiveness initially that i I just don't trust it at all.
  • [00:01:25] Mike: I want to say, but okay, ah I actually think a woman in the United States who was a neo-Nazi would be pretty interesting because i can't, it's so actually hard for me to even imagine that a man, like, okay, I know what that's going to be like. it's going to be some guy with a truck and an AK-47 and stuff, but a woman, you're like, whoa, like what has happened? so
  • [00:01:44] Keith: Right.
  • [00:01:44] Mike: So I might pick a neo-Nazi.
  • [00:01:44] Keith: Yeah. How did she curate that that worldview?
  • [00:01:47] Mike: I wouldn't marry her, but I want might want to talk to her about that. Yeah. Okay. yeah
  • [00:01:50] Keith: Sure.
  • [00:01:51] Mike: Yeah. So this is the point is that you have,
  • [00:01:52] Keith: Okay. so So being a neo-Nazi is number two on your list.
  • [00:01:55] Mike: Yeah, you have a really well attuned sort of camera in your brain for these sort of attractiveness, sexual desirability aspects. And I wanted to see if my list comported with what you expect, because I was giving this person, um I guess, advice in terms of like, look, here's what matters.
  • [00:02:05] Keith: Okay. Yep.
  • [00:02:11] Mike: OK, so here it's only five things, but these are rank ordered. So it's good yeah so I think the right way to think about it is you would. pretty much considered one before two. So if one's not on point, two doesn't matter, right?
  • [00:02:23] Keith: Sure.
  • [00:02:23] Mike: Like you you have to, so it has to be all on point and then and then maybe maybe people will fall down somewhere here, but hopefully at the lower ends of the list. Okay. Number one, the first thing you would check is their weight. Two is ethnicity.
  • [00:02:37] Mike: Three is you look at their face. Are they attractive facially? Four is you look at their breasts and their butt. And then five is sort of everything else. Now I want to say one more thing. This is assuming that the person is not like is a reasonable height for a woman.
  • [00:02:54] Mike: That there isn't like, you know, I mean, obviously, the maybe I should have put number zero is like make sure they're not missing limbs, et cetera.
  • [00:03:00] Keith: Sure, yeah.
  • [00:03:01] Mike: Like make sure they don't like you don't have like all the characteristic facial, impressive my of a
  • [00:03:05] Keith: Yeah, but that makes it a less interesting discussion.
  • [00:03:08] Mike: yeah.
  • [00:03:08] Keith: So yeah, OK.
  • [00:03:10] Mike: Okay. but so So yeah, so let's just look at these five. what do you What do you think about that? Like, do you think weight, ethnicity, face, butt and breasts and then everything else? Do you think that's like kind of the rank order you would give?
  • [00:03:20] Keith: I like this. What is it in computer science where like the the fur no the first bit is highest priority and nothing else matters, and then you get to the second bit, and then it's second highest priority, and nothing else matters after that?
  • [00:03:24] Mike: Order of operations?
  • [00:03:28] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:03:32] Mike: Sure.
  • [00:03:33] Keith: What is that called? do you remember?
  • [00:03:35] Mike: Well, people talk about the high order bit or something.
  • [00:03:37] Keith: Yeah, yeah, something like that.
  • [00:03:38] Mike: No.
  • [00:03:38] Keith: All right, well, anyway, all right. So the the the highest order bit is weight.
  • [00:03:42] Mike: I think that's right.
  • [00:03:42] Keith: And I think that's right. um We're going to get into it on your second bit, but yeah, let's...
  • [00:03:45] Mike: Yeah. So basically, if a woman... Okay. If a woman has a beautiful face, really nice, say say you're a breast man and she's got really lovely breasts, but she's, i don't know, 30 pounds overweight, 40 pounds overweight, 20 pounds, whatever.
  • [00:03:58] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:03:59] Mike: yeah It's just going to be a no because the other things i think don't matter, right?
  • [00:04:02] Keith: Right.
  • [00:04:03] Mike: OK, so you you want to so that this is important because I think that women don't like look, I think it's because women don't evaluate men the same way. So it's this confuses them.
  • [00:04:14] Keith: I... Yeah. i do Okay, I think that's true. I have a thought on the weight thing. I have...
  • [00:04:21] Mike: OK.
  • [00:04:22] Keith: experimented with dating a couple women who were quite overweight, who were very pretty.
  • [00:04:27] Mike: Hmm.
  • [00:04:28] Keith: And um gosh, this is sort of mean to say, but I guess I would say it to their faces.
  • [00:04:36] Mike: Just be honest, man. It's helpful to people.
  • [00:04:38] Keith: Well, ah in both cases, I was traveling and i didn't have you know the sort of pick of the litter like I do when I'm when i'm here at home.
  • [00:04:38] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:04:48] Keith: And so think lowered... lowered I think I kicked the tires on some people that I otherwise might not.
  • [00:04:55] Mike: Sure.
  • [00:04:56] Keith: But um you know they were both really lovely women, but i was not really that aroused by them. like the
  • [00:05:05] Mike: Hmm.
  • [00:05:06] Keith: The sex was just not that exciting. And and i I feel sort of badly about that. like There is something they can do, um especially now with GLP-1s, although they don't work on everybody.
  • [00:05:21] Keith: But ah yeah, i yeah i think some people have... Okay, look, don't care about being that woke here. But yeah, i think some people struggle with weight in a way that I would if I had their genetics.
  • [00:05:35] Keith: I'm just luckier, although I do exercise compulsively.
  • [00:05:37] Mike: Sure.
  • [00:05:38] Keith: So I don't know. But in any case, yeah, i feel bad for them because... you know there were They were nice people, that but their ability to find a reasonable mate is massively affected by their weight, as are many other things in their life.
  • [00:05:50] Mike: Is there is there a moment? I mean, obviously when you met them, you were, I assume, at a bar, a restaurant, something like that. you you
  • [00:05:58] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:05:59] Mike: you went to a place, they were fully clothed. Maybe you, ah we as one thing you've mentioned before is that your mind, and I think this is common with men, sort of fills in the blanks in a positive way, generally.
  • [00:06:11] Mike: you know You've talked about women who wear big sunglasses, then you you imagine their face is really super attractive, even even if it's not not necessarily going to be that the case. And then if they take them off, it can be a problem.
  • [00:06:19] Keith: Yes.
  • [00:06:21] Mike: um i assume I'm assuming something similar happens with weight. And so is there was there a moment in these encounters where it went wrong? like So she you you take her top off or something and you're like, oh, no.
  • [00:06:32] Keith: yes
  • [00:06:35] Mike: that Is that what happens? I actually don't know. And I have to say, i've never I have actually never dated or had sex with an overweight person, really.
  • [00:06:47] Keith: The issue for me was um when it's time to actually ah do the mechanics of having sex, if I'm in missionary, you almost have to like lift their gut up a little bit to you know get the angle.
  • [00:06:58] Mike: Okay. Okay.
  • [00:07:08] Mike: Whoa. Wait, can you say more about that?
  • [00:07:09] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:07:10] Mike: What do you mean? i think I'm imagining something really, really just almost disturbing here.
  • [00:07:12] Keith: I think with like a...
  • [00:07:16] Mike: And I don't think it's probably quite as bad as what you're, what you mean.
  • [00:07:18] Keith: with like a With a slender person, you you know sort of climb in between their legs.
  • [00:07:20] Mike: All
  • [00:07:24] Mike: right. Okay. Yeah.
  • [00:07:24] Keith: And um you know I'm maybe at like a 30 degree angle above them.
  • [00:07:24] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:07:32] Keith: And then you know my penis sort of goes out maybe horizontal to the floor.
  • [00:07:32] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:07:35] Mike: This is what use is what you would see in porn. Sure, yeah.
  • [00:07:38] Keith: yeah
  • [00:07:38] Mike: Just normal sex, yeah.
  • [00:07:39] Keith: Yeah, like I'm just like angled in such a way that um you know my penis sort of naturally slides in.
  • [00:07:45] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:07:45] Keith: But with an overweight person, because of their belly, you're different angle. you're at like a sort of a different angle and it's
  • [00:07:57] Mike: Higher or lower?
  • [00:07:58] Keith: um I guess a higher angle. ah
  • [00:08:02] Mike: Okay, so you you actually...
  • [00:08:02] Keith: But you can sort of mitigate this by like lifting up their belly a little bit so that, you know, it's not raising you up as much as it otherwise might be.
  • [00:08:11] Mike: When you say but but lifting it up naturally would make your ankle high. So lifting it up, this is almost requires some geometry here. You mean pushing it toward her breast?
  • [00:08:17] Keith: Yeah, I wish I could do a drawing here, but let me see if I could explain it to you using words, since most of the people listening the podcast are are seeing the same.
  • [00:08:21] Mike: Yeah. Right.
  • [00:08:24] Keith: yeah you know you Imagine a triangle and you have the the third side, which is her belly. um
  • [00:08:33] Mike: Okay. Okay.
  • [00:08:34] Keith: ah And if you move that that third side further away, that does actually lower the angle of the man.
  • [00:08:40] Mike: So toward her breasts.
  • [00:08:42] Keith: Yes.
  • [00:08:43] Mike: Okay, so this is something I have some knowledge of. I mean, obviously, if you had sex with a... I mean, I have kids, so if you have sex with a person who's pregnant, but of course you can't move that. So then you just have to, like, use different angles and stuff.
  • [00:08:53] Keith: Yeah, what did you do?
  • [00:08:53] Mike: You're talking about a person...
  • [00:08:54] Keith: Yeah, i think I think if somebody's pregnant, maybe you do it off the side of the bed or something with you standing or something.
  • [00:08:57] Mike: Yeah, I mean, there's...
  • [00:08:59] Keith: yeah
  • [00:09:00] Mike: Of course, that period doesn't last... I mean, the period of time when the woman has a really large stomach doesn't last that long, so I don't...
  • [00:09:05] Keith: Right, and has a libido. um some Some women get really horny we while pregnant, but I think most have it drop.
  • [00:09:07] Mike: Right, I mean, there's not... Right. I mean, yeah, so it's it's it. But it's I actually think I mean, I mentioned it, but I think it's basically completely different from this situation.
  • [00:09:18] Mike: You actually have to or choose to physically move this kind of small ocean of lipid tissue toward her toward her head, actually, to give you.
  • [00:09:29] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:09:29] Mike: And how do you do you do this with your hand? Is this real? Are you making this up? This doesn't sound plausible.
  • [00:09:38] Keith: I agree. i Like when I said it, i wasn't like, like I, that but I believe this is what happened, but it's been a while.
  • [00:09:46] Mike: Okay. Okay.
  • [00:09:48] Keith: I, ah you know, maybe my memory isn't right. i I do remember. Okay. Let me, let me just say the other thing I was going to say, which is in doggy style.
  • [00:09:54] Mike: ah
  • [00:09:56] Keith: Um, I sort of remember having to like, you know, part her cheeks and her upper thigh so that I could, you know, get up in there.
  • [00:09:57] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:10:06] Keith: Um,
  • [00:10:06] Mike: Well, that's, I mean, to some extent that's a normal experience, right? I mean, there's, okay.
  • [00:10:09] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:10:13] Mike: You think that normally, yeah.
  • [00:10:13] Keith: To some extent, but not really.
  • [00:10:16] Mike: and okay okay and i yeah
  • [00:10:18] Keith: Like, you you know, like if a woman bends over in front of you, um yeah, her vagina is usually fairly easily accessible.
  • [00:10:27] Mike: If she's you're saying that above, I guess I know this. Yeah. So of obviously above a certain weight, that would no longer be the case. And so then you would have to do some kind of, ah the but then, you okay.
  • [00:10:34] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:10:37] Mike: So maybe you hold her hips or her butt or something. So that holds them kind of apart, the cheeks apart. So you continue to have access in that way.
  • [00:10:42] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:10:43] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:10:43] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:10:44] Mike: Yeah. This is a little, I mean, this is okay. A hint to the listener who is wondering whether this is, um should be number one on the list is that like, this is sounds pretty gross.
  • [00:10:56] Mike: Right. I mean, this isn't great.
  • [00:10:57] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:10:57] Mike: And so the guy is like thinking, oh, if I have sex with you, I have to manage. And maybe these aren't things. I mean, the one women are very, I know, deeply aware of their physicality. So it's not that. But women aren't aware of these like actual mechanics.
  • [00:11:09] Mike: They don't know the guy has to put like a hard hat on and get out some tools, protractor, get the angles.
  • [00:11:15] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:11:16] Mike: It's it's a more complicated. And it's more complicated in a not very attractive way. It's like, oh.
  • [00:11:21] Keith: The problem is, yeah, there's like this constant reminder. um
  • [00:11:25] Mike: Right.
  • [00:11:25] Keith: And, you know, i I guess I have the privilege of not having to need to deal with that usually. And so it's hard going from one to the other. ah
  • [00:11:34] Mike: Right.
  • [00:11:34] Keith: Maybe if that's what I were used to, I would acclimatize. I'm not sure.
  • [00:11:39] Mike: Probably not. Okay, so let's this makes this all makes sense to me. I mean, so you're agreeing with number one is weight, that basically that's a just high order bit.
  • [00:11:44] Keith: Yes.
  • [00:11:46] Mike: Ethnicity, you wanted to take issue with?
  • [00:11:46] Keith: Yeah. Yeah. I think ethnicity matters to me. Not much.
  • [00:11:53] Mike: Whoa. So I'm a, is this because I'm a white supremacist?
  • [00:11:54] Keith: And we're
  • [00:11:57] Mike: ah It's fine. I can take it.
  • [00:11:58] Keith: back to the neo-Nazi as your number two thing.
  • [00:11:59] Mike: Yeah. Okay.
  • [00:12:00] Keith: um No, I think, um I even think, do you go through phases in your like porn watching?
  • [00:12:03] Mike: That's interesting.
  • [00:12:09] Keith: Like, you know, you go through an Asian phase or a redhead phase or a, you know, whatever.
  • [00:12:13] Mike: No. There's only one thing that I think I've admitted this I've said this on the podcast before that I have noticed and this is look, this is just this is true.
  • [00:12:19] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:12:23] Mike: This is true. It's in porn though. So this is not in the real world. It's in porn. I have noticed that the black women in porn, African-American women,
  • [00:12:31] Keith: yeah i think I wonder if they get typecast.
  • [00:12:32] Mike: are pretty wild. And so that can be kind of compelling.
  • [00:12:38] Keith: you know Just ah like there's no Black man with like a normal-sized penis in porn, right?
  • [00:12:38] Mike: that's That's the thing.
  • [00:12:42] Mike: that Exactly, exactly. So that's, so it's not, I'm not, yeah, it's just in porn. Like this this, I don't have any reason to think this is anything beyond a porn trope, but you can, I think this is, you know, when we discussed this is because I found that map that showed that like one of the top searched words in porn for porn in America is ebony.
  • [00:13:02] Mike: And so that got me kind curious about it.
  • [00:13:02] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:13:03] Mike: And like, look, the word ebony is like the key to unlocking this vault. And yeah, it's not just that they're black ethnicity people.
  • [00:13:12] Keith: and Okay.
  • [00:13:12] Mike: It's that they, not well for wild, like, know, in a completely positive way.
  • [00:13:12] Keith: It's a euphemism for crazy.
  • [00:13:16] Keith: Crazy is not the right word. Yeah. Wild. Sure.
  • [00:13:18] Mike: Like they're sort of, you know, they're just more active.
  • [00:13:19] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:13:22] Mike: They're more like into it or something and they are less inhibited. And admittedly, porn is not very inhibited to begin with, but like even on that axis, you get less inhibition.
  • [00:13:33] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:13:33] Mike: so But other than that, no, I don't i don't have these phases. it sounds like you do. you have like a You'll have like a Ukrainian phase.
  • [00:13:37] Keith: I do. and well, and for sure, my phases sort of correlate with where I've been. So I spent last summer in Africa and I was pretty into black porn then.
  • [00:13:48] Keith: And I spent, yeah, I spent some time in Central Asia and, you know, oh man, I found this one Central Asian porn star.
  • [00:13:49] Mike: true?
  • [00:13:55] Keith: She was a babe. Um, So you know maybe some of it is like you know what I'm getting exposed to in my day-to-day.
  • [00:14:03] Mike: Well, this is really interesting because you're basically, so I had a, I was discussing this with somebody, i don't remember when or who. You're basically saying that you have this experience in real time because, you know, oh yeah, the there's this argument that there are certain countries, there are certain countries, let's say, where mail order bride or that kind of thing would be pretty compelling to it a typical Caucasian American man, right?
  • [00:14:24] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:14:25] Mike: Men are going to go, like, for example, the the typical one is men go to, like, sort of unattractive, overweight white guys who have some money go to, like, Thailand or something and meet a woman.
  • [00:14:33] Keith: Thailand, yeah.
  • [00:14:34] Mike: Okay. and And my thought process is, well, that's because there's some reason why to ah an American dude, white American dude, a Thai person is attractive, but they're never going to go to ah like the DRC in Africa, even though it be cheaper there to, you know, I mean, their money goes further, but it's just because those women are not as attractive.
  • [00:14:57] Mike: And then I thought to myself, okay, this is almost, this certainly just a cultural bias. It's not because one type of one woman is like inherently more attractive than the other. It's just because this is what men are used to and what they see on TV. And what you're saying actually confirms this. They like, you spent enough time in Africa that the African women started to be more attractive to you.
  • [00:15:15] Keith: Yeah, I think so.
  • [00:15:16] Mike: That's really cool. Huh.
  • [00:15:18] Keith: I wonder, the Thailand thing's a little bit tricky. I think you're right that it's cultural and that men prefer Thai women over, say, a woman from Botswana.
  • [00:15:28] Keith: ah
  • [00:15:29] Mike: sure
  • [00:15:29] Keith: But it's not really apples to apples. Thailand's a nice place to live, and Botswana's not. And so it's landlocked, you know.
  • [00:15:37] Mike: i thought Botswana was like ah the, maybe it's not Botswana. I thought that was like the the one country that was considered like pretty good. I mean, other than like South Africa, like the more more recently colonized ones, but i thought Botswana was actually okay.
  • [00:15:50] Keith: ah Yeah, I don't, i you know, I didn't go to the capital of Botswana. It's the only of the nine African countries I went to whose capital I didn't go to. So I don't i don't have anything interesting to say about that.
  • [00:15:59] Mike: But me but a a piece of what a piece of advice you could give a guy potentially would be, hey, you could go to Botswana, one of these places, stay for two months, and then you would start finding the women really attractive and have a really good time potentially if you could avoid HIV.
  • [00:16:00] Keith: That might be true.
  • [00:16:11] Keith: Yeah, I wonder, ah yeah, you could go you could go to the sea you could go to like ah Namibia on the on the Atlantic coast, or you could go to Mozambique on the ah Indian Ocean coast.
  • [00:16:13] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:16:22] Keith: And, huh. Yeah, I mean, look, if if you've decided that you know you're 64 years old, you've you've had a relatively successful career, and you want to retire with a babe somewhere, you know why not consider alternative places other than Thailand?
  • [00:16:25] Mike: pretty good tip.
  • [00:16:38] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:16:39] Mike: I knew guy briefly who had lived in South Africa and had married a ah a native ah South African woman, a a black South African woman, but I'll say that she was really pretty.
  • [00:16:55] Mike: So it wasn't to me. It's like me to a person who's not lived there at all. So he somehow picked like someone who to a ah American's eyes was just freaking amazing looking. So.
  • [00:17:05] Keith: Good for him.
  • [00:17:06] Mike: OK, so anyway, ethnicities, you put out this you kind of at the bottom.
  • [00:17:07] Keith: All right. Race number two.
  • [00:17:09] Mike: OK, so let's erase number two. And what so, OK, this is important, though, between. So I put at number three, I put face above butt and breasts.
  • [00:17:17] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:17:17] Mike: Do you agree with that?
  • [00:17:24] Keith: Okay. I think I don't. i think I think you're right that most people prioritize face substantially over figure shape.
  • [00:17:30] Mike: Wow.
  • [00:17:40] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:17:41] Keith: Um, My understanding of your heuristics of what makes a woman attractive comports with what you've said. Like, I think you care about face way more than, you know, curves or whatever it is that, you know people who really like butts and breasts are looking for.
  • [00:17:56] Mike: I think this is a social phenomenon, by the way, for me, at least, is that Everyone else in your life, this is what they're pretty much going to see. And so if you have somebody with a really unattractive face, i don't know you have to like explain to everybody why.
  • [00:18:04] Keith: Hmm.
  • [00:18:09] Mike: i mean, it's actually, I feel the same way about the weight thing. Like, like there's this kind of explanation required. If you, if you're dating somebody who's substantially overweight, kind of, and like people going to be like, are you sure about this?
  • [00:18:15] Keith: Yeah. Yeah. You have to like excuse them almost. Yeah.
  • [00:18:20] Mike: And it's just sort of annoying. And the face is, but but the the figure shape is going to be less apparent to the other people.
  • [00:18:25] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:18:25] Mike: Right.
  • [00:18:26] Keith: I mean, if somebody has a really good figure, that's not really the case.
  • [00:18:29] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:18:30] Keith: People would be like, oh, I see what's going on here.
  • [00:18:32] Mike: Okay, that's fair.
  • [00:18:34] Keith: But in in yeah within like normal bounds, you know within a couple standard deviations of the mean, I think you're right.
  • [00:18:40] Mike: Okay, so you might for yourself put the figure above face. And figure is a good word for butt and breasts.
  • [00:18:46] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:18:47] Mike: Okay, is there something else you would put on this list? Because I just put everything else kind of in a bucket at the bottom, which I'm not even sure really what would go in there. Go
  • [00:18:55] Keith: I think that skin is pretty important to me. And of there are a number of things I look for there.
  • [00:18:59] Mike: go on.
  • [00:19:05] Keith: I don't like um people who have a lot of, well, any facial hair or sort of dark hair on their bodies.
  • [00:19:13] Mike: Okay. But that's correctable. That's correctable. Right.
  • [00:19:17] Keith: Both of them are correctable, but I would prefer them not to need to be corrected.
  • [00:19:20] Mike: why Why do you care about that? I don't think you're being honest about that. or i'm i'm I question that because you have other things where you trying to think you have other things where you just don't. For example, you're very rational about the thing where if somebody's had sex with somebody, you know, two days ago, you're very rational.
  • [00:19:37] Mike: You're like, look, the semen's gone. It's not her body's not tainted by the man.
  • [00:19:40] Keith: Yeah. Here's why, i Mike.
  • [00:19:42] Mike: And like lasering off something like who cares, right?
  • [00:19:42] Keith: Here's why.
  • [00:19:44] Keith: No, because if you have a hairy body type...
  • [00:19:44] Mike: Go on. Yeah. Hmm.
  • [00:19:49] Keith: it is unlikely that you've been fastidious in getting everywhere, right? So, you know, let's say like that Snow snow White actress, you know, you have a little bit of peach fuzz on your on your upper back and, you know, some paparazzi shot, you know, went viral and you're like, oh my God, I got to laze this.
  • [00:19:56] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:20:00] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:20:07] Keith: Okay, yeah, that's fine. But I bet she has some hair in the small of her lower back as well. And, you know, maybe maybe her leg hair
  • [00:20:14] Mike: And that's just that's just a deal breaker. Okay.
  • [00:20:18] Keith: comes up you know higher and a bit darker than you know and ah another woman. And so, and look, if ah as you say, if or as you imply, if a woman is able to you know laser or shave ah things in a way that is totally undifferentiable from somebody who doesn't and who is thinner-haired,
  • [00:20:41] Keith: thinner hair then yeah, like, what do I care? I wouldn't even know, right? Like, I wouldn't even know. If they're able to do it in a way that I can't detect, detect then then then then great.
  • [00:20:47] Mike: yeah
  • [00:20:50] Keith: But like, I suspect in the long run, i'm going to be able to detect, you know, like, you know, she needs to shave her pits twice a day or whatever it is.
  • [00:20:57] Mike: Twice a day. so and i have i have a serious question here, though.
  • [00:20:59] Keith: I don't know. I'm just imagining.
  • [00:21:02] Mike: we Do you prefer a woman who is naturally has much less body hair or a woman who grooms herself really carefully?
  • [00:21:11] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:21:13] Mike: in The second one could be appealing in the sense that it's a woman who I guess at core, like, and maybe I don't, yeah I'm curious how you take this too. Like if a woman's grooming herself really carefully, do you view that as um like a gift to you?
  • [00:21:25] Keith: yeah
  • [00:21:26] Mike: If you're her significant other. so the So the other woman doesn't give you any gift. She's just naturally, right? She she could be kind of not taking care of herself, but it doesn't matter. Like, how do you view that?
  • [00:21:36] Keith: I think I want both.
  • [00:21:40] Mike: Oh.
  • [00:21:40] Keith: I want someone who's a natural beauty to my totally unfair and unreasonable ah hopes.
  • [00:21:46] Mike: and then grouse herself for you.
  • [00:21:46] Keith: And... And who, i don't know I don't know if I need the like for me aspect, but I like i like people who, and i and i ah I think I'm this way, who sort of industrially engineer their getting ready in the morning process, right? So some women take like two hours every morning doing things, and then other women sort of figure out a way to, you know, they they have their 10-minute thing, what what they do if they have 30 minutes, and what they do if they have infinite time, and they they sort of vary, but they they're looking to get bang for their buck, and they're, you know, preparing themselves.
  • [00:22:23] Keith: And, ah you know, I totally concede that women have a lot more to do on that front than men do. ah The expectations of society are kind of annoying in that regard, but
  • [00:22:32] Mike: so the ah I don't want to talk too much about this, but like the the I think that I actually feel almost exactly the opposite on this topic because um I don't like making other people do things.
  • [00:22:44] Mike: So if a person has gone through a bunch of trouble to look good, and I feel like it's because of me, it makes me pretty uncomfortable.
  • [00:22:50] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:22:52] Keith: Oh, ah yeah, no, i I share that feeling. i don't I think I decided long ago that when a woman is getting ready, it's like 4% for me, and and it's 96% other motivations.
  • [00:22:54] Mike: Oh, you do? Okay.
  • [00:23:04] Mike: That's interesting.
  • [00:23:06] Keith: Her girlfriends, the judgment of strangers, feeling good about herself, blah, blah, blah.
  • [00:23:06] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:23:13] Mike: Okay, so but if she if she did... I mean, so then, for example, if she shaved her pubic hair into some shape just for you, that would make you feel kind of weird. She's like, look, it's a K.
  • [00:23:23] Keith: ah There's a porn star that ah ches ah shaves a heart into her pubes.
  • [00:23:24] Mike: You're like, is this is this for the clan or is this for me? Heart is easier than a K. A K would be actually pretty challenging.
  • [00:23:31] Keith: Yeah, yeah i' I'll suggest it to people going forward. ah No, i don't I don't know how I would feel about that.
  • [00:23:35] Mike: you
  • [00:23:37] Keith: I would feel weird.
  • [00:23:39] Mike: Yeah, okay.
  • [00:23:39] Keith: ah You'd be like, this pussy is yours.
  • [00:23:43] Mike: That's like a standard dirty talk thing to say, right?
  • [00:23:46] Keith: Yeah, it is, but putting my initial on it is the next level.
  • [00:23:50] Mike: Yeah. Although, you know, and I mean, women tattoo guys' names on their bodies. Seems like a really bad idea. Okay, I have one other... go ahead.
  • [00:24:00] Keith: yeah i i just wanted to say yeah between like face figure and ah you know skin i would put some other things in skin with well yeah i mean i guess body hair and skin are sort of the same thing i mean i i don't know i feel like weight is the clear number one bitwise operator and then
  • [00:24:08] Mike: Oh, yeah.
  • [00:24:10] Mike: Oh, okay.
  • [00:24:13] Mike: Okay. And where would you put those in? Is that right below weight?
  • [00:24:22] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:24:23] Keith: ah
  • [00:24:26] Keith: Yeah, race. Yeah, and then like everything after that I think is a sort of soup for me, and it depends.
  • [00:24:34] Mike: If we replaced race with...
  • [00:24:34] Keith: um
  • [00:24:36] Mike: Vaginal lubrication consistency, would that get up there for you? Because there is some correlation there, right? I mean, at least from what I've seen in porn.
  • [00:24:47] Keith: Oh, some people are wetter than others.
  • [00:24:49] Mike: No, like sort of, yeah, something.
  • [00:24:52] Keith: Oh, frothier.
  • [00:24:54] Mike: Let's use the word frothier, yeah.
  • [00:24:56] Keith: I don't think I've ever put much mind to that now.
  • [00:24:59] Mike: Okay, really? In porn, it's it's definitely notable. Okay.
  • [00:25:04] Keith: Yeah, it is.
  • [00:25:05] Mike: Okay. but But I think the important the important thing you're putting weight absolutely at the top with in breaking bra blinking lights I think is important. That's not sure why, but I think i think almost all men agree with this.
  • [00:25:12] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:25:15] Keith: Well, and and I think that your list is is pretty... Yeah, I think that's about right for most people, yeah.
  • [00:25:23] Mike: Yeah. Okay. like i'm not I'm not like a gaslighting someone with this. It's like, yeah, this is a round. It's on the order of right.
  • [00:25:29] Keith: Yeah. Yeah.
  • [00:25:30] Mike: And saying the weight is number one is good. Okay.
  • [00:25:33] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:25:33] Mike: So um if somebody's having sex, if you're having sex with somebody for the first time, all right, so you've, let's say, let's say you met them, ah let's say in the wild, not on a dating app.
  • [00:25:39] Keith: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:25:47] Keith: Okay.
  • [00:25:47] Mike: And That night you take them home or to their place, whatever, to have sex.
  • [00:25:52] Keith: Go me.
  • [00:25:52] Mike: Is it better? Is it better for her? Like if you if a zero is like ah cold fish, like she's just not doing anything. She's not.
  • [00:26:03] Mike: She's just letting you have sex with her. And a 10 is she's just like writhing around. Super excited, super into it. where What is the best? And I have thoughts on this. this is i mean You probably can immediately see the reasoning here.
  • [00:26:15] Keith: yeah
  • [00:26:15] Mike: What what is the ideal number there between zero and 10 for you on a first sexual encounter that you met in a bar, say?
  • [00:26:16] Keith: yeah
  • [00:26:25] Keith: There's another axis that I think matters.
  • [00:26:27] Mike: All right. What's the other axis?
  • [00:26:29] Keith: The other axis is how believable is their enthusiasm.
  • [00:26:34] Mike: and Okay, let's assume it's but let's no let's assume for the for the purposes of this that it's believable.
  • [00:26:41] Mike: So let's just let's just flatten that axis.
  • [00:26:43] Keith: I think I want them to be like ah like a six or a seven then.
  • [00:26:43] Mike: And so it's like,
  • [00:26:47] Keith: So so they're they're more active than not, but they're maximally writhing around, as you say.
  • [00:26:56] Mike: what is the issue with the 10?
  • [00:26:58] Keith: Yeah, the issue with the 10 is i would think maybe that the person is so sexually liberated and in tune that my performance is like super important.
  • [00:27:11] Keith: right like She's judging me because she has you know all this experience and knows exactly what she wants. And if I'm unable and if i'm like unable to you know tick those boxes properly, like I would feel more pressure to perform spectacularly.
  • [00:27:16] Mike: That is not what I thought you were going to say. Okay. Yeah.
  • [00:27:26] Keith: if I felt like they were some sort of...
  • [00:27:27] Mike: Okay. Okay.
  • [00:27:29] Keith: Like, i had sex with ah with a former porn star once, and ah was i was pretty nervous about it, and I think it's rational to be nervous. ah But, yeah, she put my mind at ease and seemed to enjoy it.
  • [00:27:44] Keith: so
  • [00:27:44] Mike: You were nervous that your performance would not be up to par.
  • [00:27:47] Keith: Yeah! Like, imagine the ah the range of experience she's had.
  • [00:27:50] Mike: I wouldn't. That would never cross my mind because of my internal beliefs about.
  • [00:27:54] Keith: What?!
  • [00:27:55] Mike: Yeah, I would not cross my mind because I don't think that women care that much.
  • [00:28:00] Keith: i think I think porn stars occasionally have you know quote unquote mind blowing sex in there.
  • [00:28:00] Mike: I don't think that they have like some rank ordering like that.
  • [00:28:09] Mike: Yeah, I think that that's mostly an emotional experience for the woman, not a physical experience. So I don't think there's much I could do one way or the other that would move the needle. I'm not i'm not sure. It's not something I would, I just wouldn't give much thought to it in that situation, I don't think.
  • [00:28:22] Mike: um But the, the not to not to not to discount what you're saying, like me, like i I think you're probably much more normal or like most men would feel the way you felt.
  • [00:28:23] Keith: hu Okay.
  • [00:28:31] Mike: Um, but the, the, so you wouldn't be concerned at all. Like you wouldn't, I, we did flatten the axis of believability, but you wouldn't be concerned at all of like, why on the first, like she just met me like two hours ago, I'd never seen her naked.
  • [00:28:40] Keith: Yeah. Yeah.
  • [00:28:49] Mike: We're now fucking. And she's having this intense, like your concern would be that you wouldn't, uh,
  • [00:28:50] Keith: yeah
  • [00:28:56] Mike: Chin the bar, not like trying to understand what the fuck was going on with this person that they were so excited. Like I would be thinking things like, has she not had sex in five years?
  • [00:29:08] Mike: ah Is she like, is she dreaming? Is she fantasizing? Is she, is she fantasizing that we're getting married already? Is she like, what's happening with this person that they're having this intensive, a sexual experience?
  • [00:29:17] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:29:18] Mike: That would be my concern.
  • [00:29:18] Keith: I mean, I think we have like a ah ah gap in our heuristics around this. like i
  • [00:29:25] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:29:26] Keith: think some women like sex enough that they can just go out and look for a sport fuck and that it doesn't have to be anymore.
  • [00:29:41] Keith: you know its it's It's just not that serious.
  • [00:29:43] Mike: So let's say I agree with that. I'll agree with that.
  • [00:29:45] Keith: Okay. Now, so well, I mean, that's one possibility of why she's for writhing around.
  • [00:29:47] Mike: I still think my argument has about validity, but go on.
  • [00:29:54] Mike: but Wouldn't you sort of feel bad? maybe Maybe you wouldn't. See, I think I would. OK, I think that would then make me feel bad that I was the person she chose as a sport. Fuck. Maybe I shouldn't, but I'd be like, oh, like I'm I'm basically like one of those fuck machines that people buy from Eastern Europe that just like, you know, just pumps in and out.
  • [00:30:12] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:30:16] Keith: yeah Yeah, there's like a, I guess a third axis then, which is, okay, we're we're we're comfortable that she is enthusiastic, but now the third axis is why is she enthusiastic?
  • [00:30:29] Keith: And she could be enthusiastic because she thinks I'm great and she's excited about me, but I probably don't want her to be too high on that. But I don't want her to be too low on that either. I don't want to be disposable either.
  • [00:30:41] Mike: Right.
  • [00:30:41] Keith: right like I want to imagine that I have seduced this woman. I had to i had to pursue. had to chase her. i i landed it. And now she's like giving me access to her body.
  • [00:30:52] Keith: And yes, some of that fantasy is ruined if I think that you know she would have picked anybody with a pulse.
  • [00:31:00] Mike: Do you think let's assume that the woman does as you described it since it's since it's a believable they're enjoying it and since it's not particularly plausible that they know you that well because they just met you at a bar.
  • [00:31:11] Mike: ah So that it has to be your your thing of their kind of having a sport fuck with you like a kind that kind of has to be the reality of the situation. um If they wanted to have sex with you more times in the future.
  • [00:31:26] Mike: does this Does their behavior on this first encounter really matter? Or would you would you be equally likely, assuming that they're somewhat enthusiastic, would you be equally likely to want to have sex with them in the future and no matter how they were between, say, a 3 and a 10 on this?
  • [00:31:41] Keith: oh
  • [00:31:44] Keith: I don't know. think there are some things a woman could do that I think would discourage me from having sex with them.
  • [00:31:46] Mike: So there's so there's an
  • [00:31:55] Keith: together Okay. I don't know if this is what you're getting at, but I have many times had the experience where ah you know I'm having sex for the first time and it's fine. It's good even.
  • [00:32:10] Keith: ah But I can tell that it was really meaningful for them.
  • [00:32:14] Mike: okay hmm
  • [00:32:14] Keith: like you know They think that like you know if I would say to them, you know how do you think about being exclusive? you know And and i I call you my girlfriend now, like you know they would say yes. ah and Or at least that's the short-term trajectory that they're hoping for.
  • [00:32:33] Keith: ah
  • [00:32:36] Keith: Yeah. So there have been a couple times where that's come up and like afterwards I've been like oh man, like I wasn't like sport fucking them, but it you know, I didn't view it as some sort of, you know, bar to clear you know,
  • [00:32:54] Keith: you know locking ourselves down or or I just hadn't decided it yet.
  • [00:32:57] Mike: Right.
  • [00:32:59] Keith: ah But like when it when it becomes obvious that they're like really available, I guess, that is not great.
  • [00:33:07] Mike: Yeah, i think that's the i think I think you've hit the nail on the head there in terms of the the concern that I have is that let's say it's a woman who does enjoy sex, is capable of enjoying sex quick, early in a relationship like this, or, you know, early when you've just, early in an encounter, when you first met somebody, which is, I think, already kind of unusual. But let's say it's that.
  • [00:33:29] Mike: But she wants, but she is interested in finding a relationship partner. i think that if she is too ah clearly having fun during the sexual encounter, that she's running a risk of the guy, basically.
  • [00:33:43] Mike: The thing I imagine is basically ah you know, a group of frat guys and one of them describing how what a whore person X was because he just met her and then they fucked and she was enjoying it so much.
  • [00:33:57] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:33:58] Mike: And like he basically gets this. He mentally internalizes slut shaming of her and it becomes then very difficult for him to take him her seriously in the future.
  • [00:34:04] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:34:06] Mike: And I think I think there's some risk there. that a woman runs. I'm not sure exactly how they should respond to that. I mean, actually, like if you want a relationship, I think the way right way to respond for a woman is simply not to have sex two hours after you met somebody.
  • [00:34:19] Keith: Yes.
  • [00:34:19] Mike: But if you're going to have sex with them, I'm not sure what you should do then because it's like, I think there's a very significant risk that the guy is just like going to think, well, first of all, if you did that with me, you're doing with everyone, that meaning the going nuts the first time you have sex. like That's what I would think. I would definitely assume that I'm nothing special.
  • [00:34:37] Mike: And that this is just her. But you sort of said that. that like it's it's she'd she you know You're just a placeholder. There's a risk of that. and um And then I would think, okay, well, she likes sex so much that she probably has had like 275 partners.
  • [00:34:53] Mike: or you you know some really Yeah, it basically implies a high body count.
  • [00:34:57] Keith: Yeah. Hmm.
  • [00:34:59] Mike: Which you would say you don't care about, I guess. Fair.
  • [00:35:01] Keith: Yeah. But in any case, a woman doesn't necessarily know that even if I said I didn't care about it. Right. So a woman has to manage all of these different considerations.
  • [00:35:07] Mike: yeah
  • [00:35:10] Keith: Right. Like, is he going to think I'm a whore? Is he going to think I'm too eager? Is he going to think that I'm just using him as you know a sport fuck? Is he you know, there's like all these different considerations. And you might say,
  • [00:35:23] Keith: Well, you know that's pretty unfair for the woman. And yeah, maybe... Well, don't know if it's unfair. It's just a thing that is. um But there's a lot of things that men have to manage too, right? Like a man...
  • [00:35:35] Keith: has to do all of the things, right? Like sex is like the man is the dominant person, right? So he has to like lead the dance and, you know, be the right amount of dominant and then be the right amount.
  • [00:35:50] Keith: ah ah He has to like read the situation and figure out like what kind of any aftercare she's looking for. Like the there's, a lot of things that men have to perform as well. And so, yeah, it's just a fraught thing.
  • [00:36:03] Mike: Right.
  • [00:36:04] Keith: And yeah, this is why it's difficult for people who are a bit neurodivergent, right?
  • [00:36:04] Mike: Even...
  • [00:36:08] Keith: Because there's all these little things that you sort of need to manage and threading the needle properly is tricky.
  • [00:36:16] Mike: Well, that definitely makes sense. Yeah, no, it's hard. It's hard to imagine doing that if you have difficulty like discerning the emotions of other people.
  • [00:36:23] Keith: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:36:23] Mike: um ah youre ah So even though it wouldn't kind of gross you out if somebody had had a very large number of partners in the past, it would cause you to be less likely to think that they're relationship material, right?
  • [00:36:36] Keith: ah
  • [00:36:38] Mike: there's ah There has to be some number where you think, oh, well, there's just no way.
  • [00:36:41] Keith: I'm not sure if the number matters. The the recency of all that philandering would matter.
  • [00:36:47] Mike: Okay, that's interesting.
  • [00:36:48] Keith: So, you know, if it was something they'd done in the distant past, it doesn't matter to me much at all. And then the more recent it is, the more of a sort of yellow moving into red flag territory it is.
  • [00:36:59] Mike: So there's actually a study on point on this that I read and then sent to somebody who then rejected it and told me I was an asshole. ah But ah whatever.
  • [00:37:06] Keith: Wasn't me.
  • [00:37:07] Mike: And I wasn't. But the study says basically that, first of all, it basically what you said is exactly the result of the study, and it was not what they expected. So bravo, ah kudos to you. Basically that ah um kind of having a lot of sexual partners is problematic for a woman if she wants to get married. Basically just looking at sexual partner history and whether you get married and whether you stay married, just that that data.
  • [00:37:31] Mike: ah But that women can basically re- um sort of re celibitize themselves.
  • [00:37:43] Mike: So a woman can sort of re celibitize herself, meaning she can get back to the same odds of relation of getting married and marriage success simply by.
  • [00:37:50] Keith: That's right.
  • [00:37:51] Mike: so so so what you said is exactly right. Like if a woman has, you know, 100 sexual partners, but then waits three years and only has a couple or one or something, then it doesn't matter anymore.
  • [00:38:00] Keith: Yeah, I can imagine it even being good for someone to have gone through a horror phase. ah
  • [00:38:09] Mike: Sure.
  • [00:38:12] Keith: and Just because... ah Yeah, honestly, Mike, I think trying things and being adventurous is generally good.
  • [00:38:24] Keith: and and The problem with someone who's had a lot of partners, the problem with a woman that has had a lot of partners is that on average, that means they've been rejected a lot of times. There are women who have been with a lot of people and they've ended every relationship and they're the alpha and they're the high value person in all those relationships.
  • [00:38:35] Mike: ah
  • [00:38:43] Keith: But on average, women prefer relationships to go on. Most likely, yes.
  • [00:38:49] Mike: Yeah, you're right. they're either yeah They're either getting dumped a lot or they're accepting they're accepting a hookup culture.
  • [00:38:51] Keith: it's ah right
  • [00:38:55] Mike: It means one of those two things, basically.
  • [00:38:55] Keith: right
  • [00:38:57] Mike: And those both carry some negative signaling.
  • [00:38:58] Keith: most likely yeah
  • [00:39:00] Mike: Although the the hookup culture one, I think, is better because it means that she isn't really being rejected. She just bought into a culture and then she can say, yeah, and I ended that phase in my life. Okay.
  • [00:39:11] Mike: Whereas if she's been she's tried to have like 37 relationships and she's gotten dumped every time, that's an extremely negative signal.
  • [00:39:16] Keith: Right. That's that's right. um
  • [00:39:21] Mike: It's actually almost like at that point I could see wanting to date her just to see what the failure mode is.
  • [00:39:27] Keith: Right.
  • [00:39:27] Mike: It's like, I know there's something really wrong with you and I just want to see what it is.
  • [00:39:31] Keith: Honestly, Mike, those things normally come up way before you have sex with them.
  • [00:39:35] Mike: Right, right, right. Yeah, fair enough.
  • [00:39:37] Keith: And then, you know look, women reliably get upset about this, but you know they say like well why you know why can a man you know have a sordid sexual past and you know they don't get penalized for it. And it's because we've said this a million times, but yeah, it's because it for a man, it's hard to have sex with a bunch of different women.
  • [00:39:58] Mike: Right.
  • [00:39:59] Keith: It's really easy for a woman to have sex with a bunch of men. um And so that ah asymmetry creates a big difference in the perception.
  • [00:40:03] Mike: Yes.
  • [00:40:08] Keith: And you know don I don't know if that's fair or not, but that's why it is. And so...
  • [00:40:14] Mike: this is one of the This is one of the reasons, and I don't have that much contact with people in the sort of under 30-year-old crowd, but the what I'm given to understand is that culturally somehow women have been persuaded to join into hookup culture, which is amazing because that's basically just a gigantic L for them.
  • [00:40:21] Keith: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:40:36] Mike: Like they're the guys. is It's a complete win for guys, it's complete loss for women, basically. And I can't it's hard to understand what happened culturally to make women on mass accept this thing that they they all know. I think deep deep down the vast majority of them know it's not what they want. Not good for them, but they kind of feel, you know, once once it gets to a certain tipping point or critical mass, they all have to do it right because they there's social pressure and it's what the guys expect, et cetera, et cetera.
  • [00:41:05] Keith: I think there's a lot of things in this world that are like that. um
  • [00:41:12] Mike: I mean, this is a
  • [00:41:12] Keith: People, people believing in religion, for example, right?
  • [00:41:13] Mike: ten
  • [00:41:15] Keith: Like deep down core, they're they're like, eh, I don't know. This feels like it might be BS, but it's,
  • [00:41:21] Mike: Sure, but religion is something that as old as you mankind itself, like this is a trait as old as mankind that's been flipped in the last like 10 or 15 years.
  • [00:41:30] Keith: Yeah, but so is liking the Golden State Warriors instead of the Chicago Bulls.
  • [00:41:31] Mike: ah
  • [00:41:34] Keith: like there there There are cultural changes that happen in the short term. but
  • [00:41:38] Mike: This is a bigger one than that, man. Like getting women, getting women to be like, okay.
  • [00:41:39] Keith: i I know, I know. It's not a perfect analogy. but
  • [00:41:43] Mike: I don't want to have a family and kids. I just want to get my pussy stuffed. Like that's, it's like, what?
  • [00:41:46] Keith: i would I would be surprised if through the ages there haven't been various vicissitudes and sexual norms.
  • [00:41:55] Mike: It's actually true. yeah So I can give you a concrete example that I read about this week.
  • [00:42:00] Keith: Okay.
  • [00:42:00] Mike: um There was a period in the, I want to in the elite Elizabethan era, Elizabeth I in England, so Shakespearean era, when it was relatively common in high class like court dress for women to like bear one of their breasts.
  • [00:42:14] Keith: Nice.
  • [00:42:14] Mike: Meaning there were actually dresses and you can find like garments made that, yeah, where they that was what they did. They just had their breasts out. And it was very libertine. There was a similar thing going on in France. And the thing that ended it, do you know, can you guess what ended it?
  • [00:42:27] Keith: No.
  • [00:42:28] Mike: It was the Black Plague.
  • [00:42:28] Keith: I don't know. I have no idea.
  • [00:42:30] Mike: and ah syphilis.
  • [00:42:31] Keith: They thought... Hmm.
  • [00:42:32] Mike: It was syphilis and black the black plague. So basically there was, you know, there there became ah there became disease. Disease got associated with his libertine attitude. And like, you know, some one couple generations later, you have people wearing like very, very fully covered covered clothes.
  • [00:42:51] Mike: And you had like the discovery of the new world that brought that. I actually think I might have misspoke. I think it's just syphilis and not the black plague and syphilis. I think it's just syphilis.
  • [00:42:59] Keith: Yeah, I think the Black Plague was a bit before that.
  • [00:42:59] Mike: ah Well, it was an ongoing thing, but I i i jumped to the answer too soon. um Anyway, so you you have this thing and syphilis is attached to to sex.
  • [00:43:09] Keith: Well, maybe we can bring that trend back.
  • [00:43:13] Mike: Well, I mean, I bet something similar happened and I actually know something similar happened with the gay culture. In the nineteen eighty s with HIV, right? I mean, you had extremely libertine stuff going on in the 70s, and then it just had to change completely.
  • [00:43:27] Mike: so So, I mean, i I don't hope for a disease like that, but it seems it's the kind of thing that can change this.
  • [00:43:34] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:43:37] Keith: Yeah, I don't really have anything to add to that. I was trying to think of another example of like short-term changes in attitudes towards sex. i mean But I don't I can't think of anything clever.
  • [00:43:49] Keith: All right you have anything else or you want me to launch into...
  • [00:43:49] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:43:52] Mike: Let's do it.
  • [00:43:52] Keith: all right. um
  • [00:43:56] Keith: Let's do this one first. This person says, she begs me to sit on her face and I just can't. Ever since, ah this this guy's 26, his girlfriend's 26.
  • [00:44:07] Mike: The guy is supposed to sit on the girl's face.
  • [00:44:09] Keith: Yeah, and his girlfriend's 26. think means the strap on.
  • [00:44:11] Mike: Oh.
  • [00:44:14] Keith: she's been obsessed with my ass almost as much as she is with my dick i'd be lying if i didn't say it's probably the best thing that has happened to our relationship feeling her fingers tongue and even the strap is insanely intimate i think he means the st strap on
  • [00:44:25] Mike: and
  • [00:44:29] Keith: She loves me being vulnerable and she loves me being a vulnerable and whimpering mess.
  • [00:44:30] Mike: he
  • [00:44:34] Keith: I love her being bossy and prostate stimulation is very pleasurable, even if I can't orgasm from it.
  • [00:44:42] Keith: ah So much as in that paragraph.
  • [00:44:44] Mike: The sitting, but but hang on, is there more to it?
  • [00:44:44] Keith: All right. Yeah, here's paragraph two. Lately, she has been asking, desperately begging me to sit on her face, full weight when it's her turn to fuck.
  • [00:44:55] Keith: And no matter how much I try, I just can't. Her face is way too beautiful and way too elegant for me to crush it with my ass. She asks like she acts like she'll die if I don't do it. She's always bringing up how she always sits on my face, regardless whether we have vaginal sex or pegging, but I can't even do when we peg.
  • [00:45:11] Keith: Am I being irrational with not wanting to crush her face with my ass?
  • [00:45:12] Mike: she can't on his face She can't sit on his face while she's pegging him. That's physically impossible.
  • [00:45:20] Keith: ah Let's see here.
  • [00:45:23] Mike: I just get into, you know, as ah ah CFR earlier, geometric discussion.
  • [00:45:24] Keith: Well, she could peg his mouth, but yeah.
  • [00:45:28] Mike: like just annoying when people say things that can't physically happen. But, okay, so, I mean, the the thing that jumps out of me here is You know, he's he's basically saying, I want a dominatrix. And then she's begging him to do this thing that's dominant to her, which is a big red flag.
  • [00:45:42] Keith: Yeah, and he won't do it.
  • [00:45:44] Mike: It's like, oh, and it's kind of I mean, I'm not a big fan of it, especially after if if if she pegged him and then he sat on her face with his ass like that.
  • [00:45:44] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:45:52] Keith: Yeah, he stirs up all the stool.
  • [00:45:55] Mike: It's so disgusting, like, why would she want that?
  • [00:45:56] Keith: I agree.
  • [00:45:58] Mike: Like, et cetera.
  • [00:45:59] Keith: Well, she wants to be... ah Yeah, I'm guessing she's what they call a switch, right? And so...
  • [00:46:04] Mike: and I think she's probably submissive and she's just doing what he wants to save the relationship.
  • [00:46:09] Keith: Yeah, one wonders. In fact, you're right.
  • [00:46:10] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:46:11] Keith: It doesn't say... i mean, he claims that she loves him being a vulnerable and whimpering mess, but maybe he loves that.
  • [00:46:19] Mike: I mean, on some level, I think women, sure. Women like access, women, women want access to your inner motor, most reaches of your personality as a man. All this crap. They want to like, you know, really know you.
  • [00:46:29] Keith: Do they want the whimpering in a corner?
  • [00:46:31] Mike: Well, that's the thing is like, they might want to see it, but they, but they, They don't. I don't know, man. I think i've I've got to get I've got to bet that pegging is correlated with divorce.
  • [00:46:42] Keith: I mean, yeah, just, just from first principles here. Okay. Uh, you're a woman and your husband does something really cowardly, right?
  • [00:46:54] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:46:55] Keith: I don't know what, you know, maybe, um, ah you know, there's a dog in a river and it's pretty shallow and he's just like, yeah, I don't feel like getting my shoes wet or something. I don't know.
  • [00:47:08] Mike: Well, I'm too scared or whatever. Yeah.
  • [00:47:10] Keith: Yeah. yeah, I'm scared. um Like that would, I mean, I think we can say that that would objectively be a negative experience, right?
  • [00:47:20] Keith: You know, doing something that's cowardly is generally not good.
  • [00:47:23] Mike: Yeah, I think even i think even men that have fears or whatever in that kind of situation would like just yeah, there's like ah something in the male brain where you go, oh, well, I have to show off.
  • [00:47:34] Mike: I have to do it. And you would you'd be you'd be up to the task in general.
  • [00:47:35] Keith: and
  • [00:47:37] Mike: Yes.
  • [00:47:38] Keith: And it's attractive to women to be taken care of.
  • [00:47:40] Mike: Oh, yeah.
  • [00:47:41] Keith: Like I i just watched the movie, My Girl, ah the other day. And so there's a scene where the the father sort of slugs the ex of his you know new girlfriend.
  • [00:47:56] Keith: And the new girlfriend really likes it. She's like, oh, yeah I didn't know you had it in you. And like from that moment on, you know she was his. Yeah.
  • [00:48:04] Mike: Wait, wasn't it the father that did it?
  • [00:48:07] Keith: In My Girl?
  • [00:48:08] Mike: I don't know. You said the father slugs someone, right?
  • [00:48:11] Keith: Yeah, the father of the main character, the girl ah of My Girl.
  • [00:48:17] Mike: So she's then attached to her father.
  • [00:48:21] Keith: This isn't that important. But we've done it now.
  • [00:48:23] Mike: Is this like some sort of Mormon mormon story?
  • [00:48:25] Keith: OK, all right, all right. There's four characters, OK?
  • [00:48:27] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:48:27] Keith: There's a daughter. There's the dad. There's the dad's new girlfriend.
  • [00:48:30] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:48:31] Keith: And then there's the girlfriend's ex who comes over to their 4th of July barbecue to like reclaim something.
  • [00:48:33] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:48:37] Mike: So the dad slugs the X and then his girlfriend then is impressed.
  • [00:48:40] Keith: Correct. And yeah, this really has nothing to do with it.
  • [00:48:41] Mike: Okay. So the daughter, the daughter's not like on her knees. Okay.
  • [00:48:44] Keith: Although she was sort of impressed, too.
  • [00:48:45] Mike: Okay. All right. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. Cause he defended various things by, that's right.
  • [00:48:51] Keith: Yeah. Yeah. The only reason I bring this up is so often in people's discussions of sex, they'll say to me, well, that's what I want in the bedroom.
  • [00:49:03] Keith: And it's completely, completely, completely isolated from anything in real life.
  • [00:49:08] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:49:09] Keith: So it's like, ah yeah, i want you to choke me and talk dirty to me. And, you know, indeed, maybe even talk down to me and in the bedroom.
  • [00:49:20] Keith: But ah you know ah how dare you talk over me in the boardroom? um And okay, fine. ah But yeah, I just think that these things are a little bit... I think there's some non-zero correlation. So I think if you do something to your partner and it turns him into, what does he say?
  • [00:49:41] Keith: A vulnerable and whimpering mess. ah There is a non-zero chance that that's not great. There's a 100% chance that that's not great and outside the bedroom.
  • [00:49:53] Keith: And you know inside the bedroom, yeah, I think some women are probably ah ah able to be the dominant person and indeed even like it.
  • [00:50:03] Keith: But on average, I think that women want their ah sexual partners to be more old-fashioned.
  • [00:50:12] Mike: Yeah, i generally agree with that. do you I have a question. Do you think that, so the situation you described with the dog in the river or whatever, do you think that, so I think that the the the behaviors that men are, the kind of psychology that men have, has and isn't you know there's something kind of genetic in there.
  • [00:50:19] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
  • [00:50:31] Mike: um But do you think that modern society makes it more difficult for men, either men to ah enact these behaviors or for it, for women to see that men are doing this. and And the example that I would give is something like there might be things men have to do that have letting that involve like psychological toughness and courage to protect a woman, but they're like, it wouldn't be like defending their honor on social media something. That's too stupid, but, but something where it's like, it's say an intellectual task the guy has to do because there aren't as many physical tasks. Like, so an analogy to like, you know,
  • [00:51:07] Mike: something involving horses or something from the 19th century. Well, now to protect a woman, the guy has to do something clever that's more like solving a Rubik's cube. And maybe women can't see that and therefore don't feel protected.
  • [00:51:19] Mike: Maybe i'm not being articulate about this, but basically like there's there's a bunch of things that men have to do in the modern in the modern age that are like ah that are more that are that are not that not as apparent in the fit in in the same physical way to women, but that are also protecting them. I'll give you an example. like The thing you told me about putting dates in a Waymo because it's like a safe the safest thing you could do as opposed to like a cab or an Uber.
  • [00:51:42] Keith: Right. Yeah.
  • [00:51:43] Mike: There's a driver in that. That's like a dumb example. But there are these things where men have to like, you know, play the, you know, solve the sudok Sudoku of the dangerous world to help out women.
  • [00:51:52] Keith: yeah
  • [00:51:53] Mike: But it's not like, I don't know. Does the woman realize you're putting in her her in a way mode because it's safer? Like, do they figure that out or do they think, ah, whatever?
  • [00:51:59] Keith: Yeah. I mean, I think our lizard brains are more simple than that. And I think that is why women like seeing when men do competent things, right? So, you know chopping firewood is the classic example, but, um,
  • [00:52:16] Keith: I was seeing somebody who heard me on a business call and she was saying how hot that was hearing me you know sort of you know command the meeting that I was in.
  • [00:52:27] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:52:27] Keith: um And yeah, it totally makes sense. um Or I know, yeah, I had another date um ah basically came to the track when I was doing a track workout and she was like, wow, it was really cool seeing you do that.
  • [00:52:31] Mike: But there's less opportunity for that now because it's harder. yeah
  • [00:52:40] Mike: Oh, yeah.
  • [00:52:44] Mike: You should actually do that more. That's a fucking, that's a good, like I've i've seen you in a truck.
  • [00:52:46] Keith: How do i get somebody to like come to the track with me? It's rough.
  • [00:52:50] Mike: Maybe she could tell her she could, but I mean like that, I mean, having been to a track workout with you, that's, that's probably your, uh, one of your, um, you know, your ace in the hole or something. My God.
  • [00:52:59] Keith: Yeah, I'm pretty competent at writing.
  • [00:53:01] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:53:01] Keith: But in any case, yeah, like i I think these kinds of symbols of of manliness are probably fewer and farther between than they were than they were basically in any other era.
  • [00:53:01] Mike: And so like they, yeah.
  • [00:53:09] Mike: Right.
  • [00:53:11] Keith: So if you could figure out a way um Like maybe this is why, you know, men in bands who are like so obviously a bad idea to date from any kind of like financial or life security standpoint.
  • [00:53:26] Keith: But yeah, like seeing a man like on stage, like while you've been drinking, you know, singing or playing an instrument is probably pretty hot.
  • [00:53:32] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:53:33] Keith: And so I understand why they do well.
  • [00:53:34] Mike: Right. It's competence. Yeah. I mean, and that's right. there's there's less There's less opportunity to show off that stuff than there was in an era where you had to like dig, I don't know, dig things up and put the coal in the furnace or whatever.
  • [00:53:46] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:53:46] Mike: There was just all this crap that you had to do.
  • [00:53:48] Keith: Ride horses around or whatever.
  • [00:53:49] Mike: or or or Or frankly, like command someone else to do that stuff, which is also kind of authoritative authoritative and stuff. Yeah. But ah yeah, this this what these yeah this this switching of dominant submissive ah I'm suspicious of.
  • [00:54:02] Mike: ah And basically, i think I can say this. I don't think a man should ever sit on a woman's face. I don't think anuses should go on people's faces.
  • [00:54:14] Mike: I'm not a fan of that. I don't think that's good.
  • [00:54:17] Keith: Okay,
  • [00:54:20] Keith: I agree, but I also think that dicks in people's mouths is kind of weird.
  • [00:54:28] Mike: Well, but it's not. Yeah, I mean, it's of course it's kind of weird.
  • [00:54:30] Keith: So it's just, it's it's just a it's a mount it's a amount of disgust that people are willing to to tolerate.
  • [00:54:33] Mike: Sure.
  • [00:54:38] Mike: Well, it's it's just pee versus poop, right? I mean, and same with giving oral to a woman.
  • [00:54:41] Keith: Yeah, I agree that P is better. ah
  • [00:54:43] Mike: Yeah, much better.
  • [00:54:44] Keith: But I could imagine ah somebody being more left on the spectrum as us and being like, oh my god, that's that's gross.
  • [00:54:52] Mike: Oh, for sure, for sure. But I would I mean. Yeah, that's they could think it's gross, but they I think actually think that the set of people who think that poop is less gross than pee is zero. It's null.
  • [00:55:03] Keith: I agree.
  • [00:55:04] Mike: So therefore, i think everybody should acknowledge that anal lingus or sitting on someone's face with your anus is more aggressive or grosser than with your genitals.
  • [00:55:15] Keith: ah
  • [00:55:15] Mike: I think that that should be a... But okay, it still might not... What is it? The Overton window of what's possible sexually may encompass that for certain people. So fair enough.
  • [00:55:24] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:55:27] Mike: But why? Yeah, I mean, over your face, like that's that really you're really getting into like pooping position there. Like it's really like you could get confused as the person on top.
  • [00:55:35] Keith: Yeah. The muscles, yeah, the muscles aren't necessarily trained to, yeah.
  • [00:55:37] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:55:42] Keith: ah Yeah.
  • [00:55:43] Mike: And women should consider this, too. if If the man I think that it's the case. I mean, I've read I've never experienced this personally, but I've read that if a person. dies or like something terrible happens their body, they they their muscle control is lost. So if the guy's sitting in your face that way and and something terrible happens, he's going to shit in your mouth.
  • [00:56:00] Keith: Well, yeah, generally you don't want startling things to happen during sex regardless.
  • [00:56:07] Mike: ah Because of the biting the penis thing or whatever. I don't think that's true. I know that was in ah Shawshank Redemption or whatever, the notion that if a guy's If somebody has a penis, and when people get shot in the head, their mouth clamps down. and So if you're getting a blow, I don't think that's true.
  • [00:56:23] Keith: i ah ah look and and I don't think that Shawshank Redemption is the greatest piece of art created by mankind like you do.
  • [00:56:23] Mike: You're looking physical like you're not talking about.
  • [00:56:32] Keith: And so I'm not familiar with the scene by scene like you are.
  • [00:56:32] Mike: No, how um i'll go I'll go with the godfa the Godfather being better for sure. you know It's pretty good though.
  • [00:56:41] Keith: There's a scene in White Lotus Season 2 where it takes place in Sicily and the ah ah some of the characters on the show go on a ah like godfather tour, and one of the characters starts pontificating about why American men love the godfather so much. and They think it's because it's like when men were men and they could use guns to assert their dominance or whatever. and
  • [00:57:13] Mike: and Probably.
  • [00:57:15] Keith: I don't know. Whatever. All right. ah Let's do one more. ah This person says, my girlfriend just told me she has post-nut clarity every time we have sex.
  • [00:57:18] Mike: Sure.
  • [00:57:23] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:57:24] Keith: So I want you to try to figure out what is actually going on here. So that's what she told him. And he goes on. My girlfriend of almost one year told me she wants to take a break from us having sex because she feels bad and disgusted after every single time so much that it makes her cry sometimes.
  • [00:57:41] Keith: which sounds like really bad post-nut clarity, despite the fact I've never been able to make her finish.
  • [00:57:41] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:57:47] Mike: Yeah, so yeah know you can.
  • [00:57:47] Keith: i could probably stop reading here, but I'll go on.
  • [00:57:49] Mike: have
  • [00:57:50] Keith: I missed that bit of my first reading when I added this to the list. All right. She also said she thinks it's because she feels like it's more out of lust instead of love.
  • [00:57:54] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:57:59] Keith: This is interesting to me because it happens every time, no matter what time of month it is or how long it's been since we've done it. We do have sex a lot, but I don't really think that could be a main reason. I would also like to add that I think we have a really healthy relationship outside of sex.
  • [00:58:13] Mike: Good.
  • [00:58:13] Keith: I just want to know if this is at least somewhat normal and how I can comfort her. Also, don't ask why she only just now told me this. Wait. Why did she just tell you this?
  • [00:58:24] Keith: Man, there's so many. Okay. Well, obviously she's just not into him. And that's that that's the end.
  • [00:58:27] Mike: They have a great, well, maybe. I mean, they have a great relationship, but she never orgasms.
  • [00:58:32] Keith: Says he. Says him.
  • [00:58:33] Mike: ah shes So like he's, and he doesn't seem like, if I was having sex a bunch of times with a woman, my biggest, and whatever is said here, and she didn't want to sex more, whatever. My biggest concern would be the lack of orgasms.
  • [00:58:46] Mike: I think that's like important. Like that's ah that's that's that's actually important to talk about and figure out.
  • [00:58:48] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:58:52] Mike: ah My guess, my first past guess here is that she had a religious upbringing and is shamed every time she has sex because it's a sin.
  • [00:58:52] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:58:58] Mike: That's my first guess.
  • [00:58:58] Keith: Yeah. yeah
  • [00:58:59] Mike: ah It could be that she doesn't like him. And so she's basically feels like she's getting raped every time.
  • [00:59:05] Keith: yeah
  • [00:59:05] Mike: ah I think those are two are very plausible. I would actually, I would actually put the religious upbringing a little higher. I think it's more likely.
  • [00:59:12] Keith: the The first comment basically agrees with you. They say, it sounds like she is likely not getting much out of the sex, so it's not a connecting experience for her and she feels a bit used, let down afterward. You said raped, but he's saying the same thing.
  • [00:59:22] Mike: Yeah. Right.
  • [00:59:24] Keith: i This happened in my marriage after a bunch of threats and knowing I had to just suck it up and do it. Every time afterward, I felt completely a mess and a lot like she is describing. I would just have a chat with her to see what she is what is missing in the sex for what is making it not a connecting experience, as it seems to be for you, but a disconnecting one. Yeah.
  • [00:59:41] Keith: I mean, he should bring it up. And I think it's probably over anyway. But his saving throw is to bring it up and talk about it.
  • [00:59:48] Mike: She may not be able to you either articulate or be honest about the real thing that's going on. And I think I do think with our 200 episodes of experience doing this, I think that I hate to be that guy, but I think probably breaking up is right because it's just assuming that she can't articulate it or it's not something pretty straightforward to fix.
  • [00:59:53] Keith: Yeah.
  • [01:00:07] Mike: It's just she'll probably lie about it or be on not forthcoming.
  • [01:00:11] Keith: Yeah.
  • [01:00:11] Mike: And then it's like, look, i mean, whatever. i mean, there's there's a lot of people in the world. You don't have to figure you don't have to solve every person's like psychological problems.
  • [01:00:18] Keith: Yeah, it's it's tricky. like If a woman is unable to orgasm, there's things that might be your fault and maybe talking about it can assuage those, but more likely is they're not comfortable with themselves.
  • [01:00:34] Keith: And so, I mean, it could yeah, it could be a number of things.
  • [01:00:36] Mike: Or they could be on an SSRI or something. There are things that could be, I mean, yeah.
  • [01:00:40] Keith: Yeah.
  • [01:00:40] Mike: Yeah. ah Masturbating would be good for her, but, you know, maybe she has a plenty of good masturbation life.
  • [01:00:41] Keith: um
  • [01:00:45] Mike: Maybe she's on UU porn gay all the time or whatever.
  • [01:00:48] Keith: Could be.
  • [01:00:50] Mike: lot of women like that.
  • [01:00:50] Keith: I would assign that lower probability than the religious upbringing. But all right. In any case, so that will do it for this episode of Your Mileage May Vary.
  • [01:00:55] Mike: Fair point. Yeah.
  • [01:00:59] Keith: You can send us feedback or questions to ymmvpod at gmail.com. Let us know if we can use your question on the air. And if you ask us not to, we promise we won't. ah We also pay $10 for any feedback we get. We like feedback, especially good feedback, but bad feedback's also sort of fun.
  • [01:01:16] Keith: ah And we, yeah, just give us your PayPal or Venmo or whatever, and we'll send you 10 bucks. Again, that's ymmvpod at gmail.com. Thanks for listening, and we'll catch you next week on Your Mileage May Vary.