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Episode 203: Good Morning Texts, Industrialized Dating, Sexual Coaching, Spreadsheet Strategy, Free Sex Work

Team YMMV | 4-18-2025 | 1:06:23

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Keith and Mike examine the nuances of modern dating with the clinical detachment of two men who’ve spent far too much time on dating apps. They begin by dissecting the increasingly common expectation for men to send daily "good morning" texts, a phenomenon Keith describes as both psychologically revealing and extremely stupid. Mike proposes outsourcing these texts to offshore call centers or an AI assistant, both of which he suspects would outperform the average man. The segment concludes with a meditation on communication as performance versus communication as evidence of actual affection.

The conversation then drifts, as it often does, into a granular exploration of sexual technique, including thrusting strategies, vocal coaching, and the sociocultural ramifications of vigorous fingering. Keith offers a brief anatomical aside on the bone structure of mammalian penises, which is less of a non sequitur than it sounds. Mike draws a comparison between poorly instructed fingering and receiving directions like “touch me like a grapefruit,” which somehow makes sense in context. There is also a serious discussion of how women might coach men toward more satisfying encounters, though no conclusive solution is reached.

From there, the hosts turn their attention to the challenges facing women in their mid-30s who are trying to find a long-term partner before their fertility window closes. Keith outlines a strategy he calls "industrialized dating," inspired by a friend who scheduled more than ten first dates per week and maintained a spreadsheet to keep track. Mike compares this to the scheduling practices of professional sex workers, which is meant as a compliment. They explore whether delaying sex can effectively filter out unserious suitors, or if it merely selects for the most patient ones.

Finally, the hosts circle back to the central dilemma: how can women efficiently vet potential husbands without becoming either emotionally drained or what Mike refers to as "a sex worker for free." Various strategies are proposed, including cryptic date-countdown policies and ambiguous sexual timelines designed to disorient men just enough to reveal their true intentions. Keith recommends maximizing throughput.

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

  • [00:00:01] Keith: Hello and welcome to Your Mileage May Vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is often controversial but mostly in good faith. I'm Keith. My co-host is Mike. Hi, Mike.
  • [00:00:10] Mike: Hey, Keith, how are you doing?
  • [00:00:12] Keith: I am well. used to have a favorite and NBA podcaster that would say he was well and then he basically disappeared off the face of the earth, which was disappointing.
  • [00:00:24] Mike: It's not our next president, Stephen A.
  • [00:00:24] Keith: Anyway.
  • [00:00:25] Mike: Smith.
  • [00:00:27] Keith: Now, did you see that he and LeBron had like a 10-day long pissing contest going back and forth?
  • [00:00:29] Mike: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:00:36] Mike: No, I don't pay attention to basketball. i just know this one from listening to ultra right wing podcasts and they started, they were making fun of the Smith guy because all he does apparently is yell about basketball players.
  • [00:00:41] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:00:46] Mike: Although to be honest, at this point that might be decent credentials for becoming president.
  • [00:00:47] Keith: That's right.
  • [00:00:51] Mike: So.
  • [00:00:54] Keith: Yeah. Yeah, he just... um he's like yeah ESPN's number one blowhard. He generates a lot of ratings for him. He's very popular. i don't know if he's popular.
  • [00:01:02] Mike: Hmm.
  • [00:01:03] Keith: He's very watched. like ESPN has really... cut a lot of the excess fat and highlight him more and more. And I presumably they're doing that because they have ratings data that show that that's a good strategy.
  • [00:01:16] Keith: But anyway, yeah LeBron got mad at him because Stephen a said something about LeBron's kid who's on the Lakers.
  • [00:01:16] Mike: and Okay.
  • [00:01:23] Keith: Anyway, it's really not interesting. Let's talk about sex and relationships.
  • [00:01:26] Mike: Yeah. I have a couple of things here ah for actually I wanted to bring up something that I heard on another podcast. This notion of a woman asking you to so asking a man, ah sort of early in a relationship to send every morning a good morning text.
  • [00:01:42] Mike: Have you had a woman demand this?
  • [00:01:46] Keith: Yeah, I have.
  • [00:01:48] Mike: and Okay.
  • [00:01:48] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:01:48] Mike: And what what do you think is, so, okay, so it's some, I'm assuming, okay, my interpretation of it is the woman has not enough connection, feels disconnected from the man, wants to get some sort of affection on a regular basis and decides, okay, this is a way to get some sort of affection daily at the beginning of the day.
  • [00:02:08] Mike: And so she insists on this. Is this is this your understanding or do you think there's some other reason a woman would request this?
  • [00:02:13] Keith: I think i have I have two other primary theories. I think ah theory one is that they have anxious attachment style and they are worried that their partner is sleeping around or doing other things and the grounding of an every morning or every evening good morning or good good night text sort of assuages their paranoia in that regard.
  • [00:02:16] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:02:38] Mike: Does this, hang on, that makes me wonder as you're speaking, i like, one of the things i like about your takes on these is that you're yeah even more cynical on some, on some level, partly because of more experience with this stuff is, do you think it's that she's, she knows it would be complicated to text her if you were like in bed with another woman?
  • [00:02:56] Mike: Is that what this comes down to?
  • [00:02:59] Keith: I'm not sure it's that coher coherently thought through on her part.
  • [00:03:02] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:03:02] Keith: I think she just, you know, maybe she sees stuff on TikTok about, you know, the the dream guy, like always checks in to make sure, okay.
  • [00:03:10] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:03:11] Keith: And they're, they're sort of trying to get their partner to affect that, which of course you can't do, but, and especially by holding a gun to their head and saying, you must see how I'm doing.
  • [00:03:22] Keith: Uh, but,
  • [00:03:23] Mike: I think you could do it using a person in a call center in the Philippines or something it wouldn't even be very expensive. They'd just be like oh, you know, it's ah whatever time I need to send that text. And then they could just give some coherent replies and then the end.
  • [00:03:33] Keith: Yeah, I think men don't do it, maybe partially because it's a bit of a lift.
  • [00:03:33] Mike: Like it would, you know.
  • [00:03:38] Keith: They don't want to like take the time to do it, but I think it's more that they don't want to concede the ground that that's something they should do. And they shouldn't.
  • [00:03:45] Mike: Because it's so stupid.
  • [00:03:45] Keith: It isn't something they should do.
  • [00:03:46] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:03:46] Keith: It is stupid.
  • [00:03:48] Mike: This is a thing that an agentic AI, that's a new buzzword, could do well, right? That basically just automatically kind of takes takes on your tone and personality and just says the right thing in the morning.
  • [00:03:59] Mike: Okay, do you have a second theory is why this happens?
  • [00:04:02] Keith: Yeah, I did. let me but pause for a second and try to remember it.
  • [00:04:04] Mike: Forget it?
  • [00:04:07] Keith: I think it may have something to do with... Yeah, she she she wants her boyfriend to care about her. And... but Like, okay.
  • [00:04:21] Keith: Oftentimes, I have read that sending goodnight text after a first date can be a pretty pro move. Yeah. And I think there's one thing going on there, which is like, yeah, like I think women have been told that that's kind of a pro move. And so if someone doesn't do it, it's like, yeah, it's like some sort of hurdle that they didn't clear.
  • [00:04:43] Keith: But in in the longer term, I think women... want their their partner to care about them, and they think that saying good good morning or good evening to each other all the time means that.
  • [00:04:56] Keith: But that's that's putting like the cart before the horse, or maybe that's not the right analogy. That's but sort of misrecognizing that the rote saying of something doesn't actually mean that they care.
  • [00:05:06] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:05:09] Keith: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:05:09] Mike: This reminds me of an educational philosophy I find ah irritating is too strong a word, but I find wrong. which is the notion that um you can, if you have a kid that's not performing well in school, you can scaffold is the word they use, ah school for them. So basically you you do some of the things for them to kind of build a scaffold around it. that So it's sort of like that. It's like she's she's thinking, oh, we don't have a very stable relationship, but maybe if I make you do these six things every day, we'll suddenly be married.
  • [00:05:37] Mike: I'm thinking it's that. of course, I think it almost works the opposite of that, that you'll just wind up be irritating the person and distancing them from it because you're scaffolding it in the way that you would do it on the way they would do it.
  • [00:05:49] Mike: And they wind up kind of just, just moving away and being less interested.
  • [00:05:49] Keith: Right.
  • [00:05:53] Keith: right like just yeah Performing the tasks that see that that you know correlate well with ah with a high-functioning relationship is different than doing them because you want to or ah displaying actual evidence that someone cares.
  • [00:06:06] Mike: Right. Although, I mean, there are things on the sexual side that women can do that are like this that I think men do appreciate. For example, if a if a woman makes more sounds during sex, even though she doesn't need to or they're not forced, she just knows he likes it.
  • [00:06:22] Mike: I think the guy doesn't care. So, I mean, I think there are things like this that you can do where the person may even know it's happening, but they enjoy it.
  • [00:06:24] Keith: yeah
  • [00:06:28] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:06:29] Keith: I actually have i have one more thing I want to say on this topic.
  • [00:06:29] Mike: Yep. Sure.
  • [00:06:31] Keith: So I took this seminar ah early in my business career about ah being efficient in your communications.
  • [00:06:42] Keith: And at the time, I thought it was stupid, but man, ah the longer I've lived, the more I think that that was a really great thing for me to go through.
  • [00:06:42] Mike: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:06:50] Keith: But you know The topics of the seminar were things like um you know when you send an email, ah think about why you're sending it and what are the minimum number of words that you can say to you know sort of get the goal of what you want. and ah you know so like you know In corporations, people will often just like reply all and say, like yes, I agree. like There's just all these like just totally garbage communications. um and It also talks about yeah when
  • [00:07:22] Keith: For example, like when trying to schedule an appointment, don't say what time's good for you. Tell the person, I'm available at these two times. do Let me know if either of these work for you. And that just shortens the number of back and forths that are required to to establish the thing.
  • [00:07:32] Mike: So you reduce, yeah, right.
  • [00:07:35] Keith: All right. um I bring that up because occasionally I find myself in an early relationship where the woman will send me you know a good morning text like, oh, you know good morning. you know Hope you have a great day.
  • [00:07:50] Keith: And I'm like, ah for starters, I mean, that's a like dark yellow bordering on red flag for me.
  • [00:07:50] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:07:56] Keith: and like i don't know why she's sending that. I definitely, i don't need to know she's thinking of me.
  • [00:08:00] Mike: It's intrusive.
  • [00:08:03] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:08:03] Keith: it It reveals that she wants to know that I'm thinking of her.
  • [00:08:07] Mike: It does.
  • [00:08:07] Keith: And there's just no point to it. like ah like I love having conversations. like you know Before we started recording here, like we you know we chopped it up for 45 minutes and Like, it's not that I don't like having interesting conversations.
  • [00:08:20] Keith: It's that I don't like having inane conversations. And yeah, having conversations for like the sake of saying, for like demonstrating that I want to talk to, like yeah, that's just not a good plan with me.
  • [00:08:32] Mike: So hang on.
  • [00:08:33] Keith: Like if if she were to write something and say like, oh, did you see that piece in the New York Times?
  • [00:08:33] Mike: So if a woman, yep.
  • [00:08:36] Mike: That, yes.
  • [00:08:38] Keith: Like that, I really disagree with it. Like, what do you think? I would be like, holy shit. Like this this person may be a keeper. But yeah, if it's just like, I want to talk about the weather or you know, what you had for dinner last night or how I'm feeling.
  • [00:08:44] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:08:49] Keith: I'm just like, a yeah, that that doesn't do it for me.
  • [00:08:51] Mike: That's what I was going to wonder is, yeah, would it be smarter? But but but in the in the in the opposite direction, I doubt that would work. I doubt it. I don't know. But if if a man said, look, I can't send you, i'm not I'm not going to send you a good morning text, but I'll send you what I'm thinking about or something or like ah an idea or something like that.
  • [00:09:05] Keith: Yeah. An article you read that we can discuss.
  • [00:09:07] Mike: But the problem is you wouldn't, right, you wouldn't always have an idea.
  • [00:09:09] Keith: Yeah, whatever.
  • [00:09:11] Mike: You'd forget sometimes. And I honestly think that's not really what she wants. Although maybe the idea that she's the person you want to share stuff with would be compelling.
  • [00:09:18] Keith: I'm not sure that's true. like I think you and i sometimes go a few days. And like you and I like you know the battle with like various forms of you know antisocialness generally.
  • [00:09:29] Keith: But like when we're when we're in like a good flow, like we send a little something to each other most days, i would posit.
  • [00:09:29] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:09:37] Keith: And I'm not doing that because I want to know you're thinking about me. It's because I'm curious about your opinion, and I think you're a compelling person, right?
  • [00:09:42] Mike: Right, right, right.
  • [00:09:44] Keith: I think...
  • [00:09:45] Mike: Well, but the woman wants to hear that, that she's complaining.
  • [00:09:47] Keith: Yeah, but like I think a healthy relationship with a would-be wife would also have those those those features, although maybe that's asking too much. I don't know. I'm 44 and not married, so I don't know.
  • [00:09:58] Mike: I just wonder if that's what the woman really wants or if she just wants some sort of ah text equivalent of a greeting card, which might actually be what she wants because she doesn't want this sort of... I can say it more precisely. She doesn't want it to be that you're like unloading some emotional charge on her. She just wants you to say, hey, and i'm I'm so happy that that you're there.
  • [00:10:17] Mike: Right. She wants it to not have...
  • [00:10:19] Keith: flower emoji. Yeah.
  • [00:10:20] Mike: Right. Well, but I could see them wanting that. Okay.
  • [00:10:23] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:10:23] Mike: Anything else?
  • [00:10:24] Keith: No, um but I'm irritated now, but let's move on.
  • [00:10:25] Mike: Okay. All right. um So... All right, well, this will be good. So, okay, so um you have a fair amount of experience with different female behaviors ah during the sex act.
  • [00:10:36] Mike: And um I want to know, so if a woman, first of all, most of the time in your experience, the manner of your thrusting doesn't matter that much to the woman.
  • [00:10:49] Mike: would Would you say that? Actually, I don't know. So maybe you would differ with that.
  • [00:10:53] Keith: The manner of my thrusting.
  • [00:10:54] Mike: ah How hard?
  • [00:10:55] Keith: I can't answer yet. like like Say more first.
  • [00:10:57] Mike: Okay. Okay. ah Let's assume you're in the missionary position.
  • [00:11:01] Keith: Yep.
  • [00:11:01] Mike: First of gosh, is going to be complicated because I know that in early encounters, women are apt to have what I would call like pseudo quote unquote orgasms in situations.
  • [00:11:15] Mike: Okay. but But the point is that I think, okay, in to my manner of thinking,
  • [00:11:15] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:11:19] Mike: The nature of the thrusting when you're in a missionary position, how hard, what angle, um how deep, let's let's say those are three parameters, there might be a few others, um where your arms are, how her body exactly is positioned. These are things that probably don't actually matter that much to the woman. That's my manner of thinking, that she would sort of be like, your this is is mostly for your enjoyment as the man.
  • [00:11:40] Mike: um Is that your general take when you're having sex with a but you know sort of early in a relationship with a partner?
  • [00:11:47] Keith: ah that They're mostly interested, or at least behaving as if they're mostly interested in my satisfaction and not particularly worrying about theirs.
  • [00:11:54] Mike: Yes. Yes.
  • [00:11:57] Keith: I suppose so, yes. so
  • [00:11:58] Mike: Okay. Now, now, um,
  • [00:12:00] Keith: there're it's They're certainly not vocally demanding and like you know carefully explaining to me what they need to have an orgasm, which... sometimes often is needed.
  • [00:12:07] Mike: got it.
  • [00:12:08] Keith: like People orgasm in different ways. Women orgasm in different ways.
  • [00:12:13] Mike: Go on. Like, well, what do you think are the top three main ways that you've seen it work in an early encounter?
  • [00:12:18] Keith: Hold on. All right.
  • [00:12:19] Mike: Say, or, you know, okay.
  • [00:12:20] Keith: Let me just clarify that point a bit more. like It's not tricky to make a man orgasm, right? like A woman can like just lay there and a man can like do all the things he needs to get the angle and the pressure where he wants.
  • [00:12:30] Mike: Right.
  • [00:12:30] Keith: and like
  • [00:12:31] Mike: Right.
  • [00:12:31] Keith: In early sexual encounters, men orgasm 95 plus percent of the time, unless there's, you know, something going on.
  • [00:12:39] Mike: Medical issues. Yeah.
  • [00:12:40] Keith: Right. Or maybe he's hammered or something. um
  • [00:12:43] Mike: Sure.
  • [00:12:44] Keith: But with women, ah a man can slowly ascertain how, you know, the the kinds of things she likes to to bring her to orgasm ah by, you know, deploying an encyclopedia of tricks and, you know, noticing ah how she moans or you know, over time you can sort of figure it out, but it's better if she tells you, uh, I like this. I don't like that. Uh, harder, slower, more pressure, less, whatever.
  • [00:13:08] Keith: Uh, but yeah, that just doesn't happen in early sexual experiences. It's awkward.
  • [00:13:13] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:13:13] Keith: It it doesn't really happen ever. Uh, but to the extent it does, it's once people are, but are much more comfortable with each other.
  • [00:13:19] Mike: Let me, okay. Let me get more to the point here. I want to, i don't want to beat around the bush. Have you experienced one or more women who the thing they need is to just be pounded really hard and deep that they seem to like orgasm when you do that?
  • [00:13:23] Keith: Yeah, fine.
  • [00:13:33] Mike: Is that a thing that you have experienced say more than a few times? Am I going to say this? Would you say that's more than 5% 10% likely, or is it
  • [00:13:41] Keith: No, definitely not.
  • [00:13:41] Mike: under that
  • [00:13:42] Keith: and i
  • [00:13:43] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:13:43] Keith: There is one caveat here. i've I don't know if I've ever experienced that with PIV. I have been with a few women, I can think of three, but there may have been more, that really like being fingered aggressively.
  • [00:13:52] Mike: All right. Yes.
  • [00:13:55] Keith: And so, ah like really aggressively.
  • [00:13:57] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:13:58] Keith: um And two of those three would squirt.
  • [00:14:00] Mike: um Something your penis couldn't do.
  • [00:14:03] Keith: ah Yeah, probably not.
  • [00:14:03] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:14:05] Keith: Definitely not with that amount of force or that amount of sustained force, or I would like risk breaking it.
  • [00:14:05] Mike: Right.
  • [00:14:10] Keith: um actually learned something the other day.
  • [00:14:10] Mike: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:14:12] Keith: Did you know that most mammals have a bone in their penis? Apes and humans don't. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.
  • [00:14:17] Mike: I didn't know that most, but I knew it was a thing. yeah but none But none where you have to sort of pound them, uh, pelvically, uh, in missionary position at a certain angle.
  • [00:14:19] Keith: Yeah. um
  • [00:14:22] Keith: ah Yeah, anyway, I lost my train of thought. Oh, yeah, I have been with women that need like really aggressive fingering, but... um yeah the
  • [00:14:34] Keith: Yeah, as hard and as fast as you can.
  • [00:14:34] Mike: and
  • [00:14:35] Keith: No.
  • [00:14:36] Mike: Okay. Okay. So this, and you have enough experience that that means that must be fairly rare. If, if, so if a woman had that requirement, <unk> hard It's hard. It's too imaginary.
  • [00:14:47] Mike: But I, okay, I'll just say it for me.
  • [00:14:48] Keith: To abstract.
  • [00:14:49] Mike: i'll I'll say it for me. If a woman had that requirement, I would be suspicious about whether they were having orgasms because it's like, to me, I think like what, okay, I know there's this anterior fornix in the vagina that like women purportedly get a lot of pleasure out of some, some women, some women like their cervix to be moved around.
  • [00:15:05] Mike: But, and I guess if you're doing sort of deep and hard penetration, you're, you're kind of slapping your pelvis against her clit, but I would be a little suspicious of this actually working.
  • [00:15:14] Keith: Yeah, but maybe in an uncomfortable way. Like if you're really pumping hard, like the clit would be go from like, yeah, would just like every third of a second get smashed.
  • [00:15:18] Mike: Right. Right.
  • [00:15:24] Keith: That doesn't necessarily sound great.
  • [00:15:24] Mike: Okay. Okay. So, so, so that's interesting, but setting that aside, setting aside that specific need, have you had a woman, i understand like there's sort of the, the, have you had slash what would you think of if you had a woman setting aside like the things you've described, like moaning more, moving their body around, maybe just having a conversation.
  • [00:15:43] Mike: coaching you while you're fucking her, like saying things like you're doing so well, do more, like basically like the kinds of things, positive things, not negative, not like, Hey, get your ass in gear, nothing like that, but positive, but really kind of coach kind of words. Is this something that you have experienced? And if not, like, do you, or if so, like, how do you, how do think, uh, what's in a, what about that?
  • [00:16:05] Keith: if somebody was trying to coach me on like angle or something?
  • [00:16:08] Mike: yeah So she's, yeah, she, but she yeah, she's kind of giving you this positive feedback and saying things like you're doing so well, do more. Is that, is that like you're doing so well? Like, how would you take that if a woman said that to you during sex?
  • [00:16:22] Keith: I think I would like that.
  • [00:16:24] Mike: You would, you that'd be positive because it's a little weird, right? I mean, you, have you, I don't think I've ever encountered this kind of verbiage.
  • [00:16:28] Keith: Well, I mean, you know, it's, it's a little bit like, um,
  • [00:16:31] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:16:33] Keith: you know If somebody says, like oh, your hair looks so much so much better than usual, it's like, wait a minute, what is that?
  • [00:16:37] Mike: That's true.
  • [00:16:38] Keith: what is that Does it usually not? So if someone's like, you know you're doing so well, it's like, whoa, like what what does that imply about, like am I usually not?
  • [00:16:40] Mike: ah
  • [00:16:46] Keith: like why Why is this coming up?
  • [00:16:49] Mike: i would I think I would take the whole thing would be strange to me because like i like my prior on this is that the exact manner in which I perform missionary doesn't matter that much the woman. It's mostly for my benefit. That would be my sort of prior on that.
  • [00:17:00] Mike: Sure.
  • [00:17:01] Keith: I think that's right. I think there are some women that can orgasm from PIV, and and ah a really common preferred one is is missionary.
  • [00:17:05] Mike: Sure.
  • [00:17:10] Keith: And for those women, it's probably not all missionary PIV. There probably is some angle thing, so a little bit of coaching there could potentially be believable and ah good.
  • [00:17:22] Mike: Okay. But is this an experience you've had of a woman verbally coaching?
  • [00:17:24] Keith: No, no.
  • [00:17:26] Mike: No, it's unusual.
  • [00:17:26] Keith: No, and and I also expect that the vast majority of women who can orgasm from PIV, maybe this is wrong, but my intuition is the vast majority of women who can orgasm from PIV are a bit more like men in that like they kind of can move their body to get it to what they need.
  • [00:17:27] Mike: And,
  • [00:17:44] Keith: right like they They have a bit more agency.
  • [00:17:44] Mike: Right.
  • [00:17:45] Keith: They're not they're not being fucked as much as, or they're not at the mercy of the fucker as much as many women behave as if they are.
  • [00:17:51] Mike: Right. Okay.
  • [00:17:55] Mike: Now, I know that on this topic, I'm going to get hit with some argument that like there's some generational difference. You have a variety of, say, generations that you've had sex with.
  • [00:18:07] Mike: And I mean, do you think on this communication style thing during sex, do you notice, say, a difference between, say, millennial, Gen Z, like kind of that generation divide ah between how people communicate, women, how women communicate, what the kinds of things they say during sex, or do you think it's kind of consistent?
  • [00:18:23] Keith: I think the older the woman, the more she is able to understand and articulate her ah sexual wants and desires.
  • [00:18:32] Mike: In any generation. Okay. That would be my guess as well. That, that can comports with my guess. So, uh, so you think it would be, well, is it the age or do you think it's the number of partners or number of encounters they've had? Probably both.
  • [00:18:47] Mike: I don't know.
  • [00:18:49] Keith: Yeah, I don't know what gives people the confidence and sexual awareness as time goes on. But yeah, surely it's possible to have a partner early that like encourages you in the right way, that gives you the confidence you need going forward to sort of not be so so so ah at the mercy of the other person figuring out what you want.
  • [00:19:13] Keith: um but But in general, yeah, the more experience you have, the more and confident you get, I think.
  • [00:19:19] Mike: and If you had a woman say something during sex that caused you to stop, like something I'm i'm thinking of in Seinfeld, the ah the the panties your mom laid out for you, comment that Jerry makes in one episode, is if you had a woman where you say something yeah say something during sex where you stopped and were like, hey, we need to talk about this or but what what happened here.
  • [00:19:40] Keith: ah
  • [00:19:42] Mike: I have not.
  • [00:19:43] Keith: I haven't either. You see this on Reddit all the time.
  • [00:19:45] Mike: that Oh, right.
  • [00:19:46] Keith: like People will be like, ah you know like On the extreme side, they'll like say something, i that you know they like you know called me the N-word. And it's like, whoa, yeah, like hold on, we need to... like And you sometimes it might not even be any race play.
  • [00:19:55] Mike: Yeah, it's rough.
  • [00:19:58] Keith: It's just like, whoa, where did that come from? um And then i think I think there will be times where um men...
  • [00:20:01] Mike: Right.
  • [00:20:06] Keith: Well, well yeah actually, you read about this one a lot, and it's it's often in like in a pretty troublesome context where it's like, oh, yeah, he started choking me without permission. Yeah. And, you know, the advice is like, well, tell them to stop.
  • [00:20:14] Mike: Right.
  • [00:20:16] Keith: But like a lot of women feel unempowered to do so. But yeah, that's another situation where it comes up. But I so far have managed to avoid using racial slurs and on unconsented physical violence with my partners.
  • [00:20:28] Mike: i I was thinking of the woman saying something to you.
  • [00:20:29] Keith: So.
  • [00:20:30] Mike: So it's like, it's like this coaching thing, but then I was thinking maybe there's something that they could say. sounds like your experience as women don't say much during sex, which comports with my experience as well.
  • [00:20:40] Keith: oh i'll con confess
  • [00:20:40] Mike: There's not a whole lot of words.
  • [00:20:41] Keith: I'll confess something here. I was with somebody um who was trying to coach me on ah like at how to finger her.
  • [00:20:48] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:20:54] Keith: And I don't remember the details, unfortunately, because they would be really fun.
  • [00:20:54] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:20:57] Keith: But she was using adjectives to describe what she wanted that I just couldn't figure out what she was trying to describe.
  • [00:21:05] Mike: She said like finger me like ah like an orange or finger me in a sparkly way or something.
  • [00:21:05] Keith: And yeah It was just something that like, I mean, you and I have talked about this in the past. like I think I might be a little bit on the spectrum in this particular axis where if somebody says something that's like a little bit ambiguous or unclear, but the spirit of what they're trying to say is is obvious to most, sometimes it just goes over my head.
  • [00:21:24] Keith: I'm like, oh, no, they...
  • [00:21:25] Mike: Okay. Okay.
  • [00:21:26] Keith: It's ambiguous. I'm actually not sure what they mean here. And maybe that was like what was going on here. like But like the word she was saying like just didn't really make sense to me. And at some point and you know I think we did like back and forth a couple times.
  • [00:21:40] Keith: And then I just got kind of frustrated because I wanted to have like a semantic argument about like how to use prepositions or something.
  • [00:21:46] Mike: It's good
  • [00:21:46] Keith: And yeah, I was just like, fuck this. like yeah I'm tired of getting emasculated here by somebody whose grammar is bad. And so, yeah, it's I mean, I didn't say those exact words, but that that's like what was going through my mind.
  • [00:21:57] Mike: I could see, ah let's say you were as a man reluctant to touch your own penis in front of a woman for whatever reason. She was trying to give you a hand job. It's sort of analogous.
  • [00:22:06] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:22:07] Mike: I could see it being very difficult to use words. Actually, I can imagine this being kind of a fun game, like a sex game to like like try to just be like, I'm going to try to tell you what to do and see if you can ah figure out what the hell I'm saying.
  • [00:22:14] Keith: Yeah, you're right.
  • [00:22:21] Mike: Because, well, it would be difficult without knowing all of the anatomical names, which she too would have to know. um Okay. ah So I have one other thing. Do you to say more?
  • [00:22:30] Keith: Okay, is this all driving to a point here or we just we're just chopping it up?
  • [00:22:34] Mike: No, I'm just trying to get, I wanted information about, okay, look, look, I,
  • [00:22:37] Keith: I'm worried that you're an attorney here and you're like leading me to something.
  • [00:22:41] Mike: Not one bit, not one bit.
  • [00:22:41] Keith: And I'm scared.
  • [00:22:41] Mike: I just, I, I, I became aware recently of somebody having this experience where they want to be thrusted into really hard and like to coach the guy. And I, yeah.
  • [00:22:52] Keith: To do so. Hmm.
  • [00:22:53] Mike: And I was like, this doesn't sound normal to me.
  • [00:22:56] Keith: Well, ah he i did yeah.
  • [00:22:57] Mike: So,
  • [00:22:59] Keith: Did you have the opportunity to interrogate this person about it at all?
  • [00:23:02] Mike: uh, I mean, you gotta be careful in these things because you don't want to be rude, but it just didn't sound, it didn't comport with my, uh, understanding of how this works.
  • [00:23:04] Keith: Of course.
  • [00:23:09] Keith: Well, and especially when like a woman confesses a, to me, sounding unusual ah sexual thing, Yeah, like if I immediately start shaming her with an interrogation, like she might be less inclined to share in the future.
  • [00:23:22] Mike: Right.
  • [00:23:24] Keith: So yeah, you want to be like sensitive around that. But yeah, specifically, I'd be curious if she's sure that's what she wants or if it or is it like a proxy for something else?
  • [00:23:26] Mike: Yes.
  • [00:23:33] Keith: Like maybe she wants to feel more like an object and more, you know, submissive. And so the words that come out of her mouth are like, oh, I just want you to like fuck me as fast and and as hard as you can.
  • [00:23:44] Keith: It's like, that's not exactly what she really wants, but it's like sort trying to get...
  • [00:23:46] Mike: but That's what she wants.
  • [00:23:48] Keith: and the I know. I'm just giving an example here. like It could be that there's some...
  • [00:23:51] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:23:52] Keith: Is she sure that's what she wants? it sounds like you think yes.
  • [00:23:55] Mike: Yes, she thinks she's short. And the thing about this is that um it's confusing to me because it's here's what it sounds like.
  • [00:23:58] Keith: Right.
  • [00:24:02] Mike: It sounds like porn made for a guy.
  • [00:24:05] Keith: Yes. Yeah.
  • [00:24:07] Mike: So you're like, wait a minute. this just so So then you think to yourself, is this really is person really enjoying this? Or is this person just been so has this person just been subjected to a string of men? This is part of why I asked about the generational thing.
  • [00:24:20] Mike: A string of men who have watched so much porn that this is just what sex is to this person.
  • [00:24:25] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:24:25] Mike: That's like, you see I'm saying? And so then you think like, oh, so for example, this is a person who doesn't want to receive oral sex.
  • [00:24:26] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:24:31] Mike: at Hey man, whatever. Like there are other activities this person does not want to engage in because this is the only thing that's on the in the on the menu for for men of of a certain age. Which I don't know. i mean, I think that's partly true, actually.
  • [00:24:44] Keith: Well, yeah, I'm sure that young men, have you seen the movie Onora by any chance?
  • [00:24:49] Mike: No, but i've I've heard that it's not very good.
  • [00:24:49] Keith: It won Best Picture.
  • [00:24:53] Keith: I enjoyed it. ah But ah the premise in the in the first act, I don't want to spoil it, um but the premise in the first act, well, there's a character in the first act who is a bit, who is quite immature and he has sex with ah the sex worker who, yeah the way he has sex with her is, yeah, he's just like like what you would imagine a rabbit doing or something.
  • [00:24:55] Mike: you and Okay, yeah.
  • [00:24:59] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:25:17] Keith: Like he just goes as hard and as fast as he can until he comes and there's, and it's,
  • [00:25:20] Mike: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:25:22] Keith: Yeah, it's as if he thinks that's what sex is because he's been conditioned by white. I mean, it's it's a movie, and so like it's probably it you know and it's a bit of satire. like The director might be making the same point we are here, which is, yeah, like I think young men in particular might be confused about like what a normal sexual encounter is.
  • [00:25:42] Mike: Right. i I remember talking to a woman many years ago about this kind of encounter and I remember her describing, so okay, sometimes you can have an animal, a dog or a cat that like has some action that it does. It could be fucking actually, but like i used to have a cat that would chew on wires.
  • [00:25:59] Mike: And when he would chew on the wires, first of all, it's pretty annoying to have a cat that chews on wires because they destroy all your stuff. But secondly, he would get this weird glazed look in his eyes and drool while he's chewing on them. It was very odd. It was like he was in some sort of weird, ah like Zen state.
  • [00:26:13] Mike: And this woman and described this.
  • [00:26:13] Keith: okay
  • [00:26:15] Mike: It reminded me of this way this woman would describe but this man she'd been with. But basically she'd be down there like her back and he'd be just pounding away and she would kind of be like maybe drooling even. And she, with a zoned out look in his eyes and she would just be kind of like, look, do you, Hey, I'm here. Like, do you see me?
  • [00:26:33] Mike: Like, are you still with me here?
  • [00:26:33] Keith: Yeah, this isn't connecting.
  • [00:26:36] Mike: Right.
  • [00:26:36] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:26:36] Mike: So he would just be banging away. And I think that's sort of common, uh, particularly for younger men. But, but yeah, I think there's a type of man who just doesn't care and he's just going to like a guy who probably would be satisfied just with a real doll.
  • [00:26:48] Mike: Because it's just, you know, he just needs a hole.
  • [00:26:49] Keith: Yeah. ah For me, that just doesn't feel as good as something with a slower cadence. But, you know.
  • [00:26:56] Mike: Agreed. Which is surprising because i in my life, I've mentally associated that kind of pounding behavior with tight circumcisions. But you're showing that that's not actually a fair accurate characterization.
  • [00:27:08] Keith: I need to go as fast as possible. Yeah, like the ah the amount of friction. i' or the Yeah, the amount of desired friction getting with each stroke is so low that I need to increase the frequency to...
  • [00:27:16] Mike: Well, it's not ah not that it's low. it's that it's high So the issue is that ah the tighter your circumcision, the more your penile skin becomes more like the skin of your arm and less like the skin of the inside of your cheek, call it.
  • [00:27:30] Mike: And so then it's like your skin is actually thicker. And so you need more like kind of aggressive stimulation to kind of get there. And so this could in my mind, although I think you're an exception and maybe I'm totally wrong about this, but this could lead to a guy sort of just basically trying to make his penis smoke while fucking like just a lot of friction, right?
  • [00:27:47] Keith: Wait a minute. Wouldn't a circumcised person's penis have less penile skin?
  • [00:27:53] Mike: No, yeah yeah, I hear what youre you mean. What I mean is the thickness, say, like talk about like the skin on the head of your cock.
  • [00:27:59] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:28:00] Mike: A circumcised man, the skin on the head of his cock is thinner, thus meaning the nerves are closer to the surface. they They use the word keratinized for this, like there's more de epidermis or whatever. on And this makes sense, like think about a callus.
  • [00:28:13] Mike: So your penis winds up with a little bit of like a layer of something like a callus, like more dead skin, like, you know, the exterior of your skin is dead.
  • [00:28:17] Keith: Oh, because it's circumcised.
  • [00:28:19] Mike: And this is correct. And so this is one of the things people like view as a positive of trying to reverse circumcision by like, you know, using various things that pull on your foreskin.
  • [00:28:27] Keith: I guess I hadn't really thought about this before, but yeah, I just i just thought that... um ah I told you I experimented with that briefly, but yeah no results.
  • [00:28:41] Mike: I think you have to do it for months and like, you have to do things like lie with your cock through a hole in the bed and then have like a weight down there.
  • [00:28:43] Keith: yeah I yeah i don't think i but I'm not willing to sign up for that.
  • [00:28:47] Mike: It's just the, what I would say is somebody, somebody, yeah, yeah go ahead.
  • [00:28:51] Keith: and and that Hold on. We have three open threads here. or We were about to have a third one.
  • [00:28:55] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:28:56] Keith: yeah so The first thread is
  • [00:28:59] Keith: I never thought about this the the notion of... like Yeah, like I thought the head of my penis would be more sensitive because I didn't have the foreskin to protect it. I do know the foreskin... I guess the foreskin gets pulled back during sex or the the erection emerges out of it or something.
  • [00:29:10] Mike: Right. but Yeah, and back and forth.
  • [00:29:13] Keith: don't know exactly how it works.
  • [00:29:13] Mike: Like, it can it can it can glide.
  • [00:29:14] Keith: I don't have one.
  • [00:29:15] Mike: The force can glide back and forth over it in this lovely way, so you don't need any really lubrication.
  • [00:29:20] Keith: Got it.
  • [00:29:20] Mike: Like, it just it's it's really, really well designed by by ah ah the intelligent designer of the universe.
  • [00:29:21] Keith: Got it. Okay.
  • [00:29:26] Mike: But go on.
  • [00:29:26] Keith: ah Okay, and then thought two, right, and I just, well, I didn't, my my parents just had someone cheer it off. Okay, then thought thought two is, even if I could like pull on my penis skin to try to regain ah ah material foreskin,
  • [00:29:33] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:29:44] Mike: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:29:44] Keith: Would it be something like...
  • [00:29:44] Mike: Which you could.
  • [00:29:46] Keith: Yeah, but would it be something like a fat person who who'd lost a bunch of weight? And it's just like it's like this sort of saggy, weird... Foreskins are already a little bit unappetizing, unappealing.
  • [00:29:57] Mike: Yeah, i mean, it would be it's like
  • [00:29:59] Keith: like it Yeah, so like would my foreskin be extra unappealing because it would be sort of weird?
  • [00:30:04] Mike: I don't think it wouldll be extra unappealing, but I mean foreskins ultimately are like that in the sense that think about like the subreddit lips that grip. So like when the guy, it's basically like labia, right?
  • [00:30:11] Keith: Yeah. Love that subreddit.
  • [00:30:12] Mike: When the guy's pulling out, know, when the guy's pulling out of her, you'll see like that there's a part portion of her skin that like stays attached to him and kind of come, he' he's extruding her body, which is attractive to men visually because it's like you're, again, you're like imposing yourself on her by yanking her innards out, which feels good.
  • [00:30:19] Keith: Yeah. Yeah.
  • [00:30:27] Keith: yeah
  • [00:30:30] Mike: um But here's something I can tell you about the, this is the third thread here. I like I have, I'm too circumcised, but less tightly. And so that means that the, there are, there is a part of the head of my cock that is more thicker skin and a part that's more sensitive and thinner skin.
  • [00:30:45] Mike: So I actually sort of have both regions.
  • [00:30:47] Keith: Oh, you you can see the differential. You have a unique perspective here.
  • [00:30:51] Mike: not yeah I don't see it, but I can feel it. Like there's a spot of the head of my cock that is covered habitually when in my pants.
  • [00:30:54] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:30:58] Keith: By the foreskin. By the remaining foreskin.
  • [00:30:59] Mike: Correct. And so that area is much more soft it's softer.
  • [00:31:03] Keith: Sensitive.
  • [00:31:06] Mike: It's more like kind of moist normally, whereas the the head that's and protruding is more like just like regular skin where it's i dry.
  • [00:31:12] Keith: Huh.
  • [00:31:13] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:31:13] Keith: I wonder if I could somehow cap my penis to to regain this theres the potential superior effect.
  • [00:31:18] Mike: I think people do that.
  • [00:31:21] Mike: I think people do that, but then the problem is that when you uncap it, if it's so sensitive in your pants, it's going to be super uncomfortable.
  • [00:31:23] Keith: God.
  • [00:31:28] Mike: You know, it'll just be constantly uncomfortable.
  • [00:31:29] Keith: So you once you start capping, you you you can't stop.
  • [00:31:32] Mike: Correct. Correct. So it's better to stretch out your foreskin. Okay. Can we move on to this one other thing here?
  • [00:31:35] Keith: Okay. Yes, please. Okay.
  • [00:31:38] Mike: Because this is this is actually the one where like you can really be a Svengali about this. So we've talked before about the ideal methodology of using dating apps, dating means for a man.
  • [00:31:50] Mike: You have a lot of suggestions on that. And I think... A man would actually be well served to sort of pay you to run their accounts or tell them tell them what to do. You probably wouldn't be willing to run their accounts.
  • [00:32:01] Mike: I want to turn it around and ask you, let's say you take a mid-30s woman who wants what women want, right?
  • [00:32:02] Keith: Yeah, I agree.
  • [00:32:08] Mike: So she's she's got to move fairly quickly because of fertility issues here to find a man that is a good partner. We're not looking for maximizing sex here. We're looking for what women want.
  • [00:32:18] Mike: So think Monica in Friends. I know it's embarrassing.
  • [00:32:21] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:32:23] Mike: Uh, okay. So, so if you were, if you were running, let's say she, and she, let's say she's like, this is, she's attractive. She's like a seven out of 10. So attractive, smart, like, well, she has a degree from a good university, stuff like that is a good job.
  • [00:32:37] Mike: What do you think this person?
  • [00:32:37] Keith: OK, there's nothing ostensibly wrong with her.
  • [00:32:40] Mike: Correct. Let's say, what would you suggest this person do?
  • [00:32:41] Keith: okay
  • [00:32:43] Mike: Like kind of go down the list of what they should do to find a partner. This is a person who's found difficulty finding a partner in a major U S metro area. you know obviously is skeptical of things like dating apps, but maybe it's because she's using them wrong. Maybe she's not being ah clever like Keith about it. What would you suggest she do?
  • [00:33:00] Keith: I have a few things that I want to know first, and you're not going to be able to, but but these are like questions that I think women of that age, so we're talking mid-30s here.
  • [00:33:04] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:33:08] Mike: I think I might be able to answer these. Yeah.
  • [00:33:10] Keith: okay like Is their primary objective to have their own biological child and adoption is just not an option?
  • [00:33:18] Mike: Yes.
  • [00:33:24] Mike: I mean, it is, but but like with as with most women, I think this would resonate with most women. This person you know would rather, I mean, yeah, and there are things like you can freeze your eggs and stuff like that.
  • [00:33:34] Mike: So that might be an option.
  • [00:33:35] Keith: Yeah. Yeah.
  • [00:33:35] Mike: But I mean, the thought would be, hey, I'm this age. I'm not like my fertility doesn't go away tomorrow. So I have time to like do something. Okay. I mean, it's fair if your answer is you're fucked. That's fine.
  • [00:33:45] Mike: If that's your answer, it's not that fun of an answer. Interesting. But is is that where you're where you're headed here?
  • [00:33:48] Keith: yeah
  • [00:33:49] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:33:50] Keith: Well, it's just, there are various things you can do to extend your runway. You can freeze your eggs.
  • [00:33:55] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:33:56] Keith: You can decide that it would be okay if you didn't have a child. You can decide that if you get past your biological child having window, you would be okay adopting. And some of that can be pretty useful in framing how desperate you should be.
  • [00:34:15] Mike: i I don't know about, but she's going to grow less attractive somewhat rapidly here.
  • [00:34:17] Keith: But like,
  • [00:34:21] Mike: So I'm not sure.
  • [00:34:21] Keith: Yes.
  • [00:34:22] Mike: but i mean, okay. You know, well, but the point is that if she, if if you're saying, Hey, you might not find,
  • [00:34:24] Keith: Yeah, maybe maybe those things later don't matter because the things at the end of that tale are all just, you've already, yeah most of the opportune window is already closed.
  • [00:34:33] Mike: So I mean, okay, so like maybe we can just put a headline here. And i okay, so there's these medical interventions and things a woman can do. And there's also a corollary or related to that is you're going to say something like, look, ideally, a woman should find this guy before she turns 30 or something like that.
  • [00:34:47] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:34:48] Mike: Like, right. Okay.
  • [00:34:48] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:34:48] Mike: So she failed. She didn't do that. So would you refuse to help her because you don't like impossible missions?
  • [00:34:53] Keith: No, no, I'm just trying to understand. No, i I guess it's not really relevant because yeah what they should do at 35 is probably different than what they should do at 40. um But I do think that women should think of these things as...
  • [00:35:04] Mike: Right.
  • [00:35:08] Keith: ah Like, they should feel some... and Desperation isn't the right word. They should feel some... some pressure and some pressure to to you know get on it.
  • [00:35:15] Mike: Resolution. Okay. Pressure. Yeah.
  • [00:35:20] Keith: But if they can be a little bit open-minded about things, they can be like, look, I really want to meet a person that I am comfortable being the father of my child.
  • [00:35:20] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:35:25] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:35:30] Mike: Yes.
  • [00:35:31] Keith: But if that doesn't happen, you know i'm I'm willing to consider ah you know adopting or not having a child at all.
  • [00:35:36] Mike: Okay, well, let's focus in, yeah,
  • [00:35:38] Keith: but anyway, let's talk about what they should do in their mid-30s because those those things that come later.
  • [00:35:41] Mike: if they want to if to to maximize the chance, accepting that they they you know there is a possibility that this doesn't work out, what should they do to maximize their chance of meeting a guy in the next, say, two years that this can work with?
  • [00:35:56] Keith: Yeah. Okay. You're not going to like this either, but I'm compelled to ask.
  • [00:36:00] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:36:01] Keith: ah I think they need to ask themselves, what are they looking for in this partner?
  • [00:36:05] Mike: Oh, my God.
  • [00:36:07] Keith: So is the thing that they care about most that he be a good, reliable father who's likely to stick around?
  • [00:36:09] Mike: you
  • [00:36:15] Keith: which I would argue is not necessarily ah does not necessarily ah correlate with the other thing that they could be looking for, is maybe they want someone who's interesting and has things to say and makes them laugh, right like or or is ah sexually attractive to them.
  • [00:36:35] Keith: So yeah you know there could be two sort of divergent things here, where where one is they want the father of their child and the other is they want to feel, so you know, sexually and intellectually satisfied.
  • [00:36:46] Keith: And, you know, the kind of man who, i mean, I have a lot of friends who are like quite subservient to their wives, right? Like the, the what you know, they have two kids and they just sort of go about their lives and, you know, maybe they're the breadwinner, but, you know, when they get home, like the mom is sort of in charge of everything, like the, the, the, the childcare style, you know, what they're going have,
  • [00:37:09] Keith: for dinner where they're going to go on vacation you know who they're going to see for for holidays right so like if you want this sort of like subservient good father person ah and and one of the reasons why like i'm not married is because like i'm not actually sure what i want in the partner in a partner do i want like a person who would be a great mother or do i want a person who ah i enjoy being around and those things might not necessarily go together ideally you get both but the strategy for
  • [00:37:32] Mike: you sure? I mean, but isn't isn't the reason you're not married secondary to just sexual novelty? Isn't that also up there?
  • [00:37:37] Keith: Yeah, but perhaps. and i don't really know.
  • [00:37:39] Mike: Okay. Okay.
  • [00:37:41] Keith: we We can double click on that another episode.
  • [00:37:43] Mike: Okay. I mean, to your question about what she wants, I mean, obviously she wants both. She wants someone she's attracted to that has like the right confidence and intelligence, a good job or whatever, a good career, and would be a good father.
  • [00:37:55] Mike: So, I mean, obviously, like we're we're looking for the optimal here and and you're just going to say like, i realize that lowers yeah lowering one's expectations, just like lowering one's expectations about having kids would help.
  • [00:37:55] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:38:02] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:38:06] Mike: But let's say that we're going for this optimal thing. I still like I feel like you could still come up with strategy.
  • [00:38:08] Keith: All right, fine. All right, all right. They're going for the A-plus here, fine.
  • [00:38:13] Mike: Yes.
  • [00:38:13] Keith: um
  • [00:38:15] Mike: your Your main point, a is your main point, your main point is they're probably fucked.
  • [00:38:15] Keith: I had a friend...
  • [00:38:19] Mike: Like, what what do you think the odds are? Let's just start with this. What do you think the odds are of the A plus outcome? For this person who's 7 out of 10.
  • [00:38:25] Keith: Well, I mean, for anybody, even even starting at 20, they're not great. like Most men suck.
  • [00:38:31] Mike: Like, okay.
  • [00:38:32] Keith: um but
  • [00:38:33] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:38:33] Keith: ah But yeah, I mean, the the longer you wait, the i mean, there you probably get better at vetting. So that's one positive.
  • [00:38:41] Mike: Okay. ah To get better, let me ask this. To get better at vetting, I assume what you mean by that is a person who's been in multiple moderate term relationships. Like that's the main thing.
  • [00:38:51] Keith: ah Yeah, or maybe even been in a bunch of short-term relationships that all fizzled out for various reasons.
  • [00:38:52] Mike: It's sort of
  • [00:38:56] Keith: You probably get better at noticing yellow and red flags sooner.
  • [00:38:56] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:38:59] Mike: Okay. I mean, I bring that up because among the younger, as generations get younger, you have people who are more affected by this hookup culture and sort of situationships. And these are people who might have not not have the experience.
  • [00:39:10] Mike: So the odds could even go down more. But still, I'm interested in like concrete suggestions here for what a person could do.
  • [00:39:13] Keith: Maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, we'll get there.
  • [00:39:17] Mike: And I know what you would do.
  • [00:39:17] Keith: We're going to get to it.
  • [00:39:18] Mike: I know what you would do as a man trying to maximize the number of ah sexual encounters with novel. not Not necessarily that that's what you're doing, but in your life, but I'm saying you have concrete suggestions for a man with the typical male objective set of ah optimizing fucking.
  • [00:39:29] Keith: Yeah. Yeah.
  • [00:39:32] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:39:32] Keith: Yeah. All right. I want to, I want to say one more thing before I get into that.
  • [00:39:35] Mike: Yes.
  • [00:39:35] Keith: I think that attractiveness, okay. Women, especially a woman who's, you know, a five or higher. basically have the opportunity to constantly go on dates with men who are sevens or higher, right?
  • [00:39:49] Keith: yeah we weve We've gone through the numbers on this a lot, but it's easy for women to score dates with with people that are objectively pretty good catches for them.
  • [00:39:49] Mike: Okay. Yes.
  • [00:40:00] Mike: and kind
  • [00:40:00] Keith: Now, maybe subjectively, no, and we were sort of alluding to that a moment ago, but but objectively, like yeah, it's just easy for them to go on dates.
  • [00:40:09] Mike: yes
  • [00:40:09] Keith: And... and like I wish i was a woman because I do well on dates. like I go on a date and almost always I get a second date. and it's I would love to have the opportunity to get in front of as many people as as attractive women have.
  • [00:40:26] Mike: Yeah, I feel the same way. like the um the As a married man, ah i mean, it would require like an intense amount of lying to do this, not necessarily to my wife, but to the other people.
  • [00:40:37] Mike: But it would I could imagine it being fun as a married man just to go on first dates, just because like the amount of ego stroking that would happen sounds pretty awesome.
  • [00:40:37] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:40:44] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:40:45] Mike: And it's just like this person really trying to like make you feel good.
  • [00:40:45] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:40:48] Mike: You're like, great, this is really really fun. Yeah.
  • [00:40:50] Keith: Yeah. um But I think women
  • [00:40:58] Keith: often have the experience that they go on a lot of dates and for some reason he's just not that interested.
  • [00:41:04] Mike: Right.
  • [00:41:04] Keith: And I bring this up as the last thing I'll say before I'll talk about how I think this mid-30s woman should industrialize her process of of and trapping a man.
  • [00:41:12] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:41:13] Keith: But look, the advice that men are given all the time, like men complain on the internet ah probably million times a day, like ah day at times a day, I'm having problems getting dates or you know this this girl doesn't isn't that into me.
  • [00:41:14] Mike: Yes.
  • [00:41:27] Keith: And the advice is always like, look, get a better job, go to the gym, get a hobby, read, make yourself a better person, be better.
  • [00:41:33] Mike: Right, right.
  • [00:41:34] Keith: And like nobody ever says that to women. It's like, oh, you kind of suck. And so the reason why people don't want to be with you is because you don't have a good job and you're not going to the gym enough and you're not compelling enough. And like that's that's, I mean, the same reason that women aren't into some men is the reason why some men aren't into some women is because they're just not that interesting.
  • [00:41:51] Keith: And so the last thing I want to point out is like, yeah, if you're having the experience often where like you're going out with people and they just, you know, aren't into it, it's like, well, you know, if that happens enough times, you know, Occam's razor here may be that, you know, you need to work on yourself.
  • [00:41:51] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:42:05] Keith: All right.
  • [00:42:06] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:42:06] Keith: Setting all that aside.
  • [00:42:06] Mike: Okay. That makes sense.
  • [00:42:07] Keith: All right. You're a reasonably attractive person, both both physically and emotionally and mentally and intellectually and all these things. And you're you just like, you what should I do here? um
  • [00:42:15] Mike: Yes.
  • [00:42:17] Keith: So, you know, there are three... major dating apps. And I believe they're all... ah I think Hinge is owned by the same match group that owns Bumble and Tinder. And there none of those apps are great right now. Tinder and Bumble are... like ah Particularly in the last two years... I didn't look at at Tinder, but I saw that Bumble's stock...
  • [00:42:40] Keith: is down like maybe 90% over the last four years. like they're just
  • [00:42:44] Mike: Wow.
  • [00:42:45] Keith: people People have just moved past them and I don't know what they're doing. um But I would focus on getting as many dates as I could.
  • [00:42:59] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:42:59] Keith: And i think this would be pretty easy for you know a reasonably attractive woman. And, you know, I think women are hesitant to do this. I think dates are harder for women than they are for men. For starters, they have to like get ready.
  • [00:43:13] Mike: Right.
  • [00:43:13] Keith: um Oftentimes they need to like, a lot of women have insecurities in ways that think men's men are more confident than women in general. um This is like a huge complaint women have about men is like, yeah, they have this like sort of irrational confidence.
  • [00:43:26] Keith: um And so like women have to sort of like steal themselves to like, to like go. And then, you know, they go and if, you know, they've sometimes had the experience that the man doesn't seem that into them, they feel badly about themselves. And so, you know, they, they become hesitant to, to go on dates, but,
  • [00:43:42] Keith: I think I had a friend who i actually reached out to before we started recording today ah who industrialized her process in her mid thirties. It's actually someone, you know, remind me to tell you after the show.
  • [00:43:53] Keith: um
  • [00:43:53] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:43:54] Keith: And she would be going on like more than 20 dates a week. She would go but not more than 20, like, like more than ah more than 10, right?
  • [00:43:58] Mike: Wow. Oh.
  • [00:44:02] Keith: Like more than one a day on average.
  • [00:44:04] Mike: Right, so she's like one of those prostitutes.
  • [00:44:04] Keith: And,
  • [00:44:05] Mike: i mean, it's not a prostitute at all, but i'm ah i'm always it's always gross when you find out the prostitutes like schedule people hour by hour by hour. So if you go to a prostitute, you're probably like the sixth guy she's fucked that day, which is pretty anti-prostitute.
  • [00:44:18] Keith: You're definitely the the the you know the the not the first guy that she's um attracted that day.
  • [00:44:18] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:44:24] Keith: um
  • [00:44:25] Mike: Yeah. And so, okay, so she's, she's realizing like maybe a lunch date and a dinner date or two dinner dates maybe or dinner and drinks out.
  • [00:44:26] Keith: And so...
  • [00:44:30] Keith: ah Something like that. Yeah. some Dinner and drinks after.
  • [00:44:31] Mike: Yeah. Wow. Okay.
  • [00:44:32] Keith: yeah And ah she had a spreadsheet and she was just, she was super organized about it and she didn't love it, but she was like, look, I am getting old and ah ah yeah, like I'm tired of sort of, you know waiting for luck to happen to me.
  • [00:44:33] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:44:38] Mike: Hmm.
  • [00:44:50] Keith: I'm going to, you know, do what I can. And um the reason why i reached out to her was because I remember talking back then about, this ah I said, like yeah well how like how could you even possibly really vet if you know you have like all these people swirling around in your head?
  • [00:45:07] Keith: And she said, it is probably true that I was throwing some fish back into the water that I shouldn't have, but I'm getting so many more fish.
  • [00:45:13] Mike: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:45:16] Keith: And when I do select one, you know at least I sort of know what like the range of possibilities are out there because I've seen so many fish. I know what like a bad fish is and what a great fish is. And yeah, maybe...
  • [00:45:26] Mike: yeah
  • [00:45:28] Keith: ah you know, if I had infinite time, I would spend more time with each of these, but the the people that I did decide to go on second and third dates with were were generally pretty good.
  • [00:45:37] Mike: Does she, ah I mean, is the is the process here, I know you have more to say, but is the process here, because when you say select, you mean select out at the very early reaches of the date.
  • [00:45:37] Keith: And.
  • [00:45:46] Mike: So I'd like you to make sure you include in your commentary, you don't have to say it right now, like what process you think a woman should follow in terms of like
  • [00:45:51] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:45:55] Mike: like what percentage you cut at each date level, uh, when you fuck, if you do, the stuff like that. I'm curious about that too.
  • [00:46:02] Keith: yeah yeah
  • [00:46:02] Mike: Like, is she, is she on date seven with five different guys? you Either this woman, you know, or the meta, the person you're recommending to having, is she having sex with five guys a week because she's on date seven with all of them?
  • [00:46:14] Mike: And like, are you sort of, how to how do you, how do you think about that?
  • [00:46:15] Keith: ah she was this person was exceptionally attractive and so she could get away with not having sex with people in a way that i think so other women might not be able to like people would just like hold on hope for her um just for the chance um
  • [00:46:20] Mike: so Okay. Okay.
  • [00:46:30] Mike: I like the sound of this. I definitely want to check this person out. But is is this, ah I mean, an argument could be made that a woman of any attractiveness level should hold should not have sex with the guys just because it's like, look, that's not her goal anyway.
  • [00:46:42] Mike: And so, okay, she might lose 80% of them because of that choice, but the 20% of her main might be really compelling to her.
  • [00:46:44] Keith: yeah
  • [00:46:47] Keith: yeah okay all right okay yeah i want to speculate about that let me say one more thing about trying to get as much uh um liquid into the funnel yeah as much inbound uh as you can i would put on my hinge profile oh for sorry yeah let me say a little bit more about what your dating profiles should be all right by the way yeah i recommend hinge over tinder and bumble uh they just have less uh
  • [00:46:53] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:46:57] Mike: Inbound. Yeah.
  • [00:47:12] Keith: fake accounts. And so there's not quite as much quantity there, but the quality is higher enough that the small drop and in quantity is worth it. ah
  • [00:47:21] Mike: I know for, and I know for men you recommend, and I noticed that you're only talking about applications, which is interesting as opposed to like some other methodology meeting people.
  • [00:47:29] Keith: Yeah, we should join a running club or something, obviously.
  • [00:47:29] Mike: Um, so maybe you should, Yeah, ah but but ah she should she buy buy like platinum or gold or whatever the enhanced level is like like you've recommended men do?
  • [00:47:38] Keith: Yeah, I don't know.
  • [00:47:41] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:47:41] Keith: i suspect not. I suspect that women get enough inbound that they don't need to and sort of game how they're getting inbound.
  • [00:47:42] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:47:47] Keith: But I was going to put some words to that, which is, yeah, I think their profile should be
  • [00:47:48] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:47:56] Keith: ah you know a picture, close-up picture of their face where you know people can see That should be like your your primary photo. And then a picture where you're doing something social.
  • [00:48:06] Keith: Your friends can be in the picture. I would recommend not if you could avoid it just because I often have the experience where like I'm not sure which person this is.
  • [00:48:12] Mike: Right. Right.
  • [00:48:14] Keith: And like if you're not the hottest one in that picture, like that there's basically no justification for using that photo.
  • [00:48:15] Mike: Right.
  • [00:48:19] Keith: And I think women get confused about that. ah But yeah, so where are you doing something social? Maybe you're like at ah at a bar or at a picnic or something, just something that shows that like you're a normal person. And then some picture that shows your your full body because you don't want to have the experience where somebody shows up and you're not as ah skinny as they were hoping.
  • [00:48:29] Mike: right
  • [00:48:40] Mike: then yeah right
  • [00:48:42] Keith: Like, like you want to be honest about that. And for men, men might have some cause to like trick a woman to get onto a date with them, but I don't think women do. I think they get enough in people in the funnel. And then one final thought is like, yeah, like in your profile, you could say, I love meeting new people.
  • [00:48:55] Keith: Let's meet, make your opener a proposal with a date and time. And I propose, and I promise to respond. I have tried that on my profile.
  • [00:49:01] Mike: wow right
  • [00:49:01] Keith: It just doesn't work. Like I would get like zero women ever, ever doing that. But I, I know that most women have the problem of like too many inbounds. And so, yeah, just say like, look, like tell me where and when, and then you don't have to, you could just, you know, block them or say no and then block them.
  • [00:49:15] Mike: Right, right. Do you think they should have a photo that's like a thirst trappy kind of photo, like a bikini shot or whatever?
  • [00:49:17] Keith: But,
  • [00:49:21] Keith: I don't because...
  • [00:49:23] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:49:24] Keith: i mean, the problem with that is... i think the the problem a lot of women have is like they attract quote-unquote fuckboys. And to some extent, i think women are confused about what a fuckboy is.
  • [00:49:32] Mike: Hmm.
  • [00:49:36] Keith: Look, all men... are possible to convert into a husband. And if you think somebody is behaving like a fuckboy, probably because they're not that interested in you.
  • [00:49:47] Mike: Yeah, right.
  • [00:49:48] Keith: um But to the extent that there are people that really, really aren't looking for anything serious, ah yeah, if you have like a bikini photo on there, every man is going to swipe yes, right?
  • [00:49:59] Keith: And like, yeah, that's just not what you want. So yeah, like having a bikini photo on there probably would get you more inbound likes. And if you're having problems getting inbound likes, then I guess go for it. But I would think that that, um like even something where you're in like yoga pants or something, like you don't want to over-sexualize yourself.
  • [00:50:09] Mike: Right. And in your general...
  • [00:50:15] Keith: You don't want the men that are just on there, you know, looking at 9 p.m. on a Friday, like trying to get laid.
  • [00:50:20] Mike: Should the woman, when...
  • [00:50:21] Keith: And you're you regardless, but I think having a thirst trap on there exacerbates it.
  • [00:50:25] Mike: if If the woman has, a as I think most women that are above a certain of attractiveness would have too many men to select from, should they... purposely not select men that seem too attractive for them or seem, I guess like, because here's the way I view the fuck boy thing.
  • [00:50:40] Keith: Yeah, yeah
  • [00:50:41] Mike: I mean, I heard you that, that any fuck by a boy could become a husband, but generally my expectation would be that for if you take the woman's attractiveness level, there's a range of levels for whom he's going to be a fuck boy. And there's a range higher than that for whom he's a potential husband.
  • [00:50:54] Keith: and I hear your theory.
  • [00:50:54] Mike: That's how I'm interpreting it.
  • [00:50:55] Keith: I understand.
  • [00:50:55] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:50:56] Keith: Yeah, that's something I hadn't thought of before. Yeah, if somebody seems too good to be true, they're probably just trying to get fucked. Yeah, it's a thought.
  • [00:51:02] Mike: Right.
  • [00:51:03] Keith: um Maybe. I don't know.
  • [00:51:05] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:51:05] Keith: They could experiment with that.
  • [00:51:06] Mike: but Okay. So, so she gets, so, so she loads up a bunch of dates and then what?
  • [00:51:09] Keith: Yeah. Okay. Well, so now it's it's like, all right. there's There's some like ah game theory things here. like Are you trying to... entrap somebody?
  • [00:51:22] Keith: Are you trying to like play out the string as long as possible? Or are you trying to figure out if this person is husband material as quickly as possible? And those are just different things. wanted things and
  • [00:51:38] Mike: Right.
  • [00:51:39] Keith: you know so like you know you wanted to
  • [00:51:41] Mike: She wants to do husband material, obviously. I mean, that's that's the that's the goal of this particular exercise.
  • [00:51:46] Keith: Yeah, but that's really informed by how cool you are.
  • [00:51:49] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:51:49] Keith: Right. So like, all right. I firmly believe that most men and probably most women, but definitely most men sort of commit because they feel like they have to. It's like the easiest thing to do.
  • [00:52:02] Keith: Like I have so many friends that are married to like just the person that made it hardest to break up with.
  • [00:52:02] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:52:07] Keith: like um
  • [00:52:08] Mike: Okay.
  • [00:52:09] Keith: And so, you know, the cynic in me wonders if a woman could run the following strategy, you know, not sleep with him for a number of dates um and, you know, night or something.
  • [00:52:18] Mike: Like how many? wait what what's What do you mean by a number? Just just to give a, yeah.
  • [00:52:21] Keith: Right. So like, he really does have like a big sunk cost here um enough so that.
  • [00:52:22] Mike: Nine. Okay, a lot.
  • [00:52:25] Mike: Yes. And she's going to lose she's goingnna she's going to lose a lot of guys in that.
  • [00:52:27] Keith: Correct.
  • [00:52:29] Mike: Like on date six, there's a lot of guys who will be like, look, I'm not.
  • [00:52:29] Keith: Correct. Yeah. They're like, fuck this.
  • [00:52:32] Mike: But go on.
  • [00:52:32] Keith: I'm over it.
  • [00:52:33] Mike: Yeah, continue.
  • [00:52:33] Keith: Right? So yeah, you you are getting rid of a lot of fuckboys and with with this strategy.
  • [00:52:37] Mike: Yes. Yes.
  • [00:52:39] Keith: um You are running the risk, in my mind, you're running the risk of getting like meek men that don't have anything else going for them. But like again, like I think a lot of women would be fine with like some sort of subservient husband that like lets them run the show. I don't know.
  • [00:52:54] Keith: i I wouldn't want that. like I would want a dude that like has has high sexual value, knows it, and is choosing me because he thinks I'm the best best choice. But like I don't know. like Maybe women can't afford to behave that way.
  • [00:53:08] Mike: What if a woman just steeled herself against the reality that ever if she just had sex with every guy with whom she had some chemistry by date three, that she's just going to basically be giving it up to a lot of guys?
  • [00:53:18] Keith: Mm-hmm.
  • [00:53:21] Mike: And she just steals herself against that and goes like, hey, like I don't care. you know Because the fuckboys probably won't be willing to go to date. to keep you know they'll They'll just abandon her after date five or six or something, right?
  • [00:53:32] Keith: Yeah. i mean mean, my personal suggestion to the female version of myself, and the female version of myself would be like fairly attractive and confident that I was a cool person.
  • [00:53:45] Keith: I would tell that person, like just fuck whoever you want. And like if you're finding that you feel really badly, first it just wouldn't happen. mike i don't I don't not get subsequent dates. I just don't have the problem that people abandon me.
  • [00:53:58] Keith: But I think women have this problem day.
  • [00:53:58] Mike: after After you've had sex, you mean?
  • [00:54:00] Keith: yeah just Yeah, or even after I've had like one date, like it just doesn't happen to me very often. is i don't have like this mysterious re thing where like i thought I thought this person liked me, and then they just vanished. just doesn't happen.
  • [00:54:11] Mike: Right, right.
  • [00:54:12] Keith: I have people ghost me like before we've met, or like if we've met and it's brief, and like you know I don't have a chance to impress them. But generally, i just don't have that problem. But I understand a lot of people do.
  • [00:54:23] Mike: Well, women will because of the sex thing. I mean, they're going if you're a woman, this this is the thing is if a woman, that's why I said steal herself.
  • [00:54:27] Keith: Yeah, you're right. You're right.
  • [00:54:29] Mike: If a woman can basically tolerate the reality that she's, if she if she has dates with say 100 men across whatever period of time that would be, and she's just going to have sex with 20 of them who...
  • [00:54:37] Keith: yep
  • [00:54:41] Mike: yeah, she basically was a sex, she was a sex worker.
  • [00:54:41] Keith: Meet some bar.
  • [00:54:43] Mike: No, they could meet at a, yeah, meet some bar. and No, when I'm saying like 20 of them are going to be guys she has sex with and there she's basically a sex worker for free. Like they just used her. But there might be 10 that keep going through the filter and if she can tolerate that kind of life experience.
  • [00:54:58] Keith: Yeah, that language is so that language is so harsh. um But ah yeah I think if you distill it, that's that's what it comes down to.
  • [00:55:02] Mike: I know.
  • [00:55:06] Keith: And like honestly, she is a sex worker because like women... Yeah, I love love provocative language that like makes people uncomfortable.
  • [00:55:10] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:55:13] Keith: But yeah, like she is in a way a sex worker. like She you know isn't getting anything out of it, as we've discussed a million times. like Women on early sexual encounters rarely get the sexual satisfaction out of it.
  • [00:55:24] Keith: And the man really is probably... up to that point has just been saying all the right things to like maximize his chances of getting laid.
  • [00:55:30] Mike: Right. That's the problem is that he can simulate chemistry.
  • [00:55:32] Keith: And so like, yes, that's right.
  • [00:55:34] Mike: He can simulate being interesting he and maybe is interesting, but the chemistry can simulate. And so she thinks he's really in into her and then he's not. So there's something about like, yeah, go ahead.
  • [00:55:41] Keith: Don't you think, don't you, no women complain about this all the time. Don't you, don't you suspect that you'd be able to see through that?
  • [00:55:50] Mike: As a woman.
  • [00:55:51] Keith: as Well, as you, as a woman, yeah.
  • [00:55:55] Mike: I think it's complicated because women ah know that if they probe in the way that I would, mean me meaning verbally, um that they would get they a lot of...
  • [00:56:03] Keith: Yeah. Right. Yeah.
  • [00:56:05] Mike: like Here's the thing is that guys would just reject them. And some of them would be good guys.
  • [00:56:08] Keith: Right.
  • [00:56:09] Mike: they'd I mean, I don't think I would reject a woman who like was aggressive verbally. I probably like it. But most men...
  • [00:56:16] Keith: yeah
  • [00:56:17] Mike: yeah, we'll, we'll just wilt under that pressure and be like, oh, she's bitchy. And so they have to be kind of like, they they can't ask the questions they would need to ask or like be aggressive.
  • [00:56:20] Keith: right
  • [00:56:25] Mike: And so then they do shit like, um, stock them on social media to look. And of course, like, I mean, uh, you know, smart men have no women in any of their Instagram pictures, you know?
  • [00:56:35] Keith: Right.
  • [00:56:36] Mike: So it's like, they're not fighting anything.
  • [00:56:36] Keith: Right. Yeah. Men expect women to be, unfortunately, even, even great men might be conditioned to want women to be demure. Yeah,
  • [00:56:48] Mike: Well, it's just the better, it's, it's the better strategy because I mean, it's a fair point. The woman could just be very combative from day, from the first date. I just don't, I think that, uh,
  • [00:56:56] Keith: yeah but Mike, this is what I'm saying. It comes down to like what they're looking for. Like if they want a really interesting man that might be different than trying to find a husband or a good father.
  • [00:57:09] Keith: if They might, I mean, they're not, yeah.
  • [00:57:10] Mike: Sure, sure.
  • [00:57:12] Keith: So it's a little bit tricky.
  • [00:57:14] Mike: I think that i think one of the main takeaways here, though, is that ah you could say that, so there's basically two strategies.
  • [00:57:14] Keith: Like,
  • [00:57:19] Mike: One is she could not have sex at all till, like, date X to weed them out. And she'll weed out heavily by doing that.
  • [00:57:27] Keith: yes
  • [00:57:27] Mike: She might lose good guys. Or just to basically say, look, I'm just going to accept that, like, this is going to be really gross this year. Like, there's to lot of semen.
  • [00:57:35] Keith: ah Yeah, you know what? Okay, I think there's like a couple different takeaways here. Okay, one is if a woman wants to... like A normal woman, right? so She's not necessarily particularly intriguing. She may or may not be, but we're we're we're inoing that ignoring that as variable.
  • [00:57:50] Mike: Right.
  • [00:57:51] Keith: If she wants to like basically have as much runway to decide if she thinks a man is a good choice... it's probably right to like ah wait three or four dates. Like don't make them wait 10, wait three or four dates.
  • [00:58:03] Keith: And then a lot of them will self-select out. There won't be a fifth date. And then, but some of them will will sort of stay in, you know, they want have sex a couple more times. um But yeah, like if you want to figure out how to have like your longest average runway length for you the woman to vet that the man is an eligible father. ah Yeah, probably just having like doing the like normal course of like three or four dates and then having sex is is maybe the best strategy.
  • [00:58:31] Mike: It's really, as a man, it's really hard.
  • [00:58:32] Keith: and
  • [00:58:33] Mike: Yeah, go ahead.
  • [00:58:33] Keith: well Yeah, they should work on trying not to get yeah to trying to view the sex as like just like part of the part of the formula.
  • [00:58:44] Keith: like Try not to have their feelings hurt and you know get too...
  • [00:58:46] Mike: That's basically what I was going to say.
  • [00:58:48] Keith: There are chemicals and hormones that go on that men don't necessarily.
  • [00:58:49] Mike: It's as a man. Yeah. Yeah.
  • [00:58:53] Keith: Yeah.
  • [00:58:54] Mike: Yeah, as a man, it's really like it's really hard to, ah men i obviously want to have sex with a woman from day one, typically. And as a man, it's really hard to understand. like the way i When you were talking about that, I was conceptualizing, like let's say that I was a man and I was lonely and I just wanted some male friends.
  • [00:59:11] Mike: um Okay, so I go to something to find male friends, find some guys. But then it turns out that the third or fourth time I hang out with each of these guys, even though I don't know them that well, I have to let them do some like kind of nasty, really intimate biological thing to me.
  • [00:59:25] Mike: It would be hard. And I think this is sort of what, because by the third date, the woman doesn't know the guy that well. She can't be that excited about him in most cases. Maybe there's a lot of instant chemistry. Uh, and, and then it's like, fuck, now I have to like suck down his calm.
  • [00:59:39] Mike: Like it's got to feel a little weird being a woman that way.
  • [00:59:40] Keith: I have... Totally. That's not ideal. I had a thought while you were saying that, which is, I wonder if if this would work.
  • [00:59:47] Mike: Yeah.
  • [00:59:49] Keith: Tell me what you think. On the first date, you could tell everybody, ah all all your all of your first dates, you know, I really want to have kids. I'm really looking for... like can't remember. There's some some word that...
  • [01:00:04] Keith: I'm looking to, you know, oh yeah, I'm family oriented in my, in my dating approach.
  • [01:00:05] Mike: but
  • [01:00:07] Mike: Okay.
  • [01:00:08] Keith: Like I'm looking for something serious here.
  • [01:00:09] Mike: Sure.
  • [01:00:10] Keith: right. So that already is going to scare some people, but lots of men will, it might scare them, but they'll be like, ah, whatever.
  • [01:00:13] Mike: Yes.
  • [01:00:15] Keith: Like, I'm still going to try and get laid here.
  • [01:00:16] Mike: Well, there's some guys that also want that, but go on. Yeah.
  • [01:00:19] Keith: Right. But you can, you can, you can and sort of spike the football and tell them, you know, uh, also i kind of want to let you know that, um, I really like to wait a while before getting physically intimate with someone I've, uh, and,
  • [01:00:30] Mike: Hmm.
  • [01:00:33] Keith: you could experiment I would want to A-B b test if like um you would say, i want to wait 10 dates. Or you could just say, I like to wait a while to let the man... You don't want the man to know what the goalposts are.
  • [01:00:47] Keith: And if you tell them that i'm i'm I am going to vet you for whether I think you're going to be a good dad, that's what you're communicating when you say you want kids and you're family-oriented in your current dating...
  • [01:00:48] Mike: Right.
  • [01:00:57] Keith: And then you tell them, like, oh, yeah, don't plan on having sex with me on the next two dates.
  • [01:00:57] Mike: right
  • [01:01:03] Keith: Like, a lot, you you want these people to self-select themselves out. um And then if you want to have sex with them on the third date because it feels right, go for it. But at least you know that they weren't, like, just sort of, you know, slow paddling until they could lay you.
  • [01:01:17] Mike: the thing The thing I don't have a good feel for, and I know we're at time here, but the thing i yeah the thing I don't have a good feel for is what percentage of the time.
  • [01:01:21] Keith: Yeah, we're about to run over time here.
  • [01:01:25] Mike: like I feel like ah what percentage of the time there are good guys who would abandon the situation because they're like, I don't want to go through nine dates. And and a piece of data on this that I've read before is there is data on
  • [01:01:35] Keith: Yeah. Yeah.
  • [01:01:38] Mike: people who are married and are happy, then they say, well, on which date do you have sex? And a lot of times it's like day two, a lot.
  • [01:01:45] Keith: yeah
  • [01:01:46] Mike: Like I forget what the data is. I've, I've seen data on this and it's not typically, you know, date 23.
  • [01:01:48] Keith: yeah
  • [01:01:51] Mike: It's actually typically pretty early.
  • [01:01:51] Keith: Yeah, i i I really don't like some of those studies, though, because a lot of people just marry someone because it's easy.
  • [01:01:56] Mike: Okay.
  • [01:01:59] Mike: Okay.
  • [01:02:00] Keith: Not everybody has had the experience of going on, in my case, hundreds of first dates. like I would say even even the average American probably goes on like less than 20 first dates in their entire life.
  • [01:02:05] Mike: Right.
  • [01:02:10] Keith: And so you know that the person they married, they had sex with on the second... yeah I don't know. it's
  • [01:02:15] Mike: Okay. You're saying it's a, it says some sort of bias in the data. That makes sense.
  • [01:02:17] Keith: Yeah, there could be.
  • [01:02:18] Mike: That makes a lot of sense. Actually, I think, I think it's well said.
  • [01:02:19] Keith: There could be anyway.
  • [01:02:21] Mike: Okay. But there's this risk generally, the woman has to ask herself, do I want to filter these guys out? There's the guys in the middle, they're the fuck boys, but then there are guys in the middle that might be good partners, but that aren't going wait nine dates.
  • [01:02:30] Keith: Well, look, I think I'm like that. like I'm conceptually interested in getting married. But ah if someone tells me on the first date that you know they want a family and they're going to make me wait you know six months until we're going to have sex...
  • [01:02:36] Mike: Right.
  • [01:02:47] Keith: I might appreciate that as a strategy for them, but i'm not I'm not sure if I would stick around.
  • [01:02:51] Mike: I don't know if.
  • [01:02:51] Keith: So that's why I'm not sure. But that but that's why I was suggesting that you know you can say that you know you're looking for a serious relationship and then yeah leave it nebulous when the physical intimacy might occur.
  • [01:02:56] Mike: Yeah.
  • [01:03:00] Mike: Yeah. I think, I mean, I think the thing I would say is that the value dynamic would be weird.
  • [01:03:01] Keith: I don't know.
  • [01:03:04] Mike: So like you might, you wouldn't accept that in most cases, but if she told you that she was, you know, heir to a billion dollar fortune or had gone to Yale law and like, blah, blah, blah, was super, like a super genius.
  • [01:03:11] Keith: Yeah, right.
  • [01:03:16] Mike: Well then you would, but the problem, the problem then is that she,
  • [01:03:16] Keith: Mike, I went on a date with someone who went to Yale Law last year, but I didn't know it while I was seeing her.
  • [01:03:22] Mike: yeah
  • [01:03:23] Keith: And I cut her loose. I shouldn't have. Anyway, all right. Sorry, go on.
  • [01:03:27] Mike: I was just going to say that then you create this value differential where the woman has to be much higher value than the man for him to be willing to tolerate the 10 date thing, which is not what typically women want. They want a guy who's somewhat higher value than they are.
  • [01:03:38] Mike: So it's tricky. Yeah. That's it.
  • [01:03:41] Keith: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I suspect most women are making the mistake on my number one tip though, which is just get as much throughput as you can.
  • [01:03:53] Keith: And I don't know about the sex part.
  • [01:03:54] Mike: Yes.
  • [01:03:55] Keith: Like if, if you don't want to have sex, you can probably still get as much throughput as you want, but um you might be shooting yourself in the foot a little bit. I, but you know, if, if you get a bunch of throughput, you can sort of AB test this a little bit and get, and get a feel for it.
  • [01:04:07] Mike: That's true.
  • [01:04:07] Keith: Like you got to get your three, you got to get your throughput up first before you can even test some of these theories.
  • [01:04:12] Mike: Agreed. Agreed.
  • [01:04:14] Keith: Anyway. right That'll do it for this episode of Your Mileage May Vary. You can send us feedback or questions to ymmvpod at gmail.com. Let us know if you don't want us to use your name on the air if we use your question.
  • [01:04:24] Keith: And if you send us feedback, we will give you $10, Venmo, Cash App, whatever. Just give us your ah screen name or whatever it's called for those apps. Thanks for listening, and we will catch you next week on Your Mileage May Vary.