Your Mileage May Vary: Honesty vs Tact, Dating Profile Science, IQ as Currency, Boob Tactics, Sugar Baby Economics

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00:01] Keith: Hello, and welcome to Your Mileage May Vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is often controversial, but mostly in good faith. I'm Keith. My co-host is Mike. And Mike, do you have anything to kick us off with today?
[00:00:13] Mike: I do. I wanted to talk about um what happens if you talk to a woman and you imply or even directly say, I like to try to be honest.
[00:00:25] Mike: So this would happen more to someone like me. You imply or actually say that they're not that attractive physically. um So if someone says this to me, like I think I'm sort of average person.
[00:00:37] Mike: look Do I wish I were super attractive? I mean I guess so. I don't know. like It's good. Well, like at a younger age, it would have been very ah useful. um But I think for a woman, like it triggers some rather extreme... they're un i just think I think you wind up in this territory, I want your feedback on this, where you actually can't even have a reasonable conversation about it. Because if you compare a woman, or you like even if you say, oh, this other woman is attractive, it enters this hornet's nest where...
[00:01:07] Mike: there's no possible useful conversation. And I wonder how you manage that. I mean, what you do you just taboo off this topic when you're talking to women?
[00:01:18] Keith: I mean, this is one of the classic examples that comes up in the you know radical honesty communities, you know people who aspire to basically never lie.
[00:01:30] Keith: And one of the classic examples that's brought up is the, you know do I look fat in this dress question as as an example of, you know are there white lies that are a net positive?
[00:01:36] Mike: Okay.
[00:01:43] Keith: And ah ah Let me just sort of steel the case for that people would make to telling the truth and in such a scenario.
[00:01:54] Mike: okay
[00:01:56] Keith: ah And I think I actually... disagree with this case, but let me steel man it. So if if people know that you always tell the truth about everything, you become a much more reliable and useful ah confidant and person to ask questions of because
[00:02:16] Mike: Right.
[00:02:16] Keith: you yeah the feedback you give is honest and useful and potentially actionable. But If you're the kind of person, and this kind of person I'm about to describe is what almost all humans are like, if you're the kind of person that almost almost reflexively, ah subconsciously tells white lies all of the time.
[00:02:39] Keith: um you know Your brain is doing some sort of processing that says, like oh, this is a situation that I should white lie in. you know Do I look fat and stressed? No, of course not. You look great. Let's go. ah ah Well, then in the long term, people just don't respect your opinion on anything quite as much because and they're not they're not articulating these things in their minds that way. But the but the benefit of always telling the truth has has some sort of long-term collateral benefit. all right.
[00:03:05] Mike: Right. Yes.
[00:03:05] Keith: In this particular case, ah like the case of women and honestly telling them how they look,
[00:03:15] Mike: yes
[00:03:16] Keith: I don't know. analogy I would make is I know what my IQ is, and like IQ is pretty high. You and I happen to have similar IQs, which I think is actually pretty useful because I think if yours was materially higher or materially lower, it would change dynamics in our relationship.
[00:03:36] Keith: But it's I don't like that there are people out there that are smarter than me. I'm not confronted by it very often as a function of what my IQ is, but it it happens and i and I don't like it.
[00:03:48] Mike: Yeah.
[00:03:51] Keith: But if I were a woman, And IQ helps in in many aspects of life, many more than what most people would like to admit. But for a woman, her attractiveness is such an important currency that ah I understand why they might want to sort of put discussions about it into a box and not really think about it that carefully, because it really is annoying.
[00:04:19] Keith: for women to sort of recognize how important their attractiveness is and then you know to have a reckoning in their minds about there's not much they can do to control it. you know They can try to be in shape and you know have a good skincare routine, but it sort of is what it is to some extent.
[00:04:37] Keith: I don't know.
[00:04:39] Mike: So do you think that, um I mean, ah do you think that it would be, okay you you think of it just as a value thing.
[00:04:39] Keith: um i don't know.
[00:04:49] Mike: So I mean, obviously one thing with the IQ is that you not everybody has to wear a badge stating their IQ on their shirt or something. If they did, then it would be obvious, whereas women essentially do have to wear a badge with their attractiveness on, you know, ahead.
[00:04:57] Keith: I
[00:05:01] Keith: i want to i want to say something there. ah i think I bet high IQ people ah can recognize ah can estimate other people's IQs much, much, much more quickly than people would like to imagine.
[00:05:14] Mike: That's true.
[00:05:16] Keith: You're right. It's not like, you know, a number that appears on your face and your attractiveness basically is a number that appears on your face. Uh, but it's, it's, it's, it's apparent quicker than you might imagine.
[00:05:25] Mike: How do you think people do it, Keith? I'm curious.
[00:05:28] Keith: Say again.
[00:05:29] Mike: or I can either say how I do it or you can say how you think people do it or how you do it, recognizing people like you.
[00:05:34] Keith: Oh, evaluate intelligence.
[00:05:36] Mike: Yes.
[00:05:36] Keith: Yeah.
[00:05:37] Mike: you want to say or do you want me to say how I do it?
[00:05:38] Keith: Uh,
[00:05:39] Mike: and
[00:05:41] Keith: I haven't really thought about it much other than thinking that I do have a set of processes that I i use. I think with a new person,
[00:05:54] Keith: just the way that they like interact in the world, whether it's efficient or whether it's obvious that they're trying to search for like something interesting to happen or whether they're just sort of going through the motions. I don't know. I'm speaking extemporaneously here, so I don't really know what what things I'm doing. but I think I probably you know say like a default opening sentence, and I learn a lot from the first sentence they say back. And then I probably adjust accordingly and you know pretty quickly through this tree of like you know four or five different decision forks.
[00:06:26] Keith: I probably pretty quickly figure out how smart they are.
[00:06:29] Mike: Okay. So I have to interview fairly often or write relatively regularly, I have to interview people for jobs. And so that's a situation.
[00:06:37] Keith: Yeah.
[00:06:37] Mike: but and And I think there's a similar thing if you go on a date. So that's that's a thing that's much more universal. um If you're on a date, then you might do the same thing, right? look at like Listen to what they talk about, what they think is important.
[00:06:47] Keith: Yeah.
[00:06:49] Mike: ive I know that what I do when I interview people for a job is, and I know this for an interesting reason that I'll say in a second, I listen to their diction. I can tell based on what words someone uses very, very quickly how smart they are.
[00:07:05] Mike: ah Yeah, I'm confident of this. Like, but you know, people could challenge it. but i yeah and and And one way I know this is if somebody's from another country let's say they're from China or India.
[00:07:16] Mike: India is not as bad because they because they maybe grew up speaking English, so then it wouldn't matter.
[00:07:16] Keith: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:21] Mike: Or Germany or something. It's much harder for me to immediately estimate. And so I know that's what I'm doing by by that fact. but like it's actually It actually makes interviewing people much more challenging for me when they're from another country because I can't just, you know I don't want to be unfair to them if their English is sort of choppy because they're from China. It's like, well, that's why. It's not because they're stupid.
[00:07:40] Keith: Yeah, you're losing your primary evaluation tool for or a primary tool.
[00:07:41] Mike: um Yeah, but that's also how i know that's how I know that's how I evaluate because of the fact that it's... So even a a person from China might do some of the things you're describing, like describe interest in the world. And these are all positive things like, oh, I'm interested in doing novel things and so forth.
[00:07:57] Mike: But if their diction is bad, it's going to make... Because I know that like their diction is going to be bad because they're from China, their vocabulary and so forth, I'm going to lower my evaluation of them. And so then I have to like calibrate that, which is trout tricky for me.
[00:08:10] Mike: Anyway, so I know it's diction that I use.
[00:08:12] Keith: I strongly agree with that as an evaluation technique, metric. ah
[00:08:22] Mike: Right.
[00:08:23] Keith: Online, when I'm keyboard worrying against some morons on Reddit, often... i often ah Yeah, like if somebody can't write coherently, ah ah yeah, I just dismiss them almost as a matter of faith.
[00:08:39] Mike: right
[00:08:41] Keith: Actually, ah um and I bet I do that. i don't know. The way that people miswrite things when they are English native speakers but ah poorly educated is a little bit different than the way that foreign people do it.
[00:08:56] Keith: But I'm not sure ah recognize.
[00:08:57] Mike: Yes.
[00:08:58] Keith: like think I would probably recognize that. um
[00:09:02] Mike: Yes.
[00:09:03] Keith: But I'm not sure. Also, you know in the in the era of LLMs, where you can just put anything you write into the LLM and it'll spit it out in perfect grammatical form.
[00:09:16] Keith: It's it's like irresponsible. like I have this friend. um My friend was a pro bono lawyer for him, and he's Nepalese. And he immigrated to the US s when he was in his late 20s, I believe. it might have been in his late 30s.
[00:09:34] Keith: is ah He used to be a ah Sherpa and in Nepal, and he grew up extremely in this really poor village. And when he came to the US, he spoke ah no English.
[00:09:45] Keith: And ah he got really into photography. My friend, who was his pro bono lawyer helping him with his immigration case, ah got him into photography. And he's now like, a like i don't know but I don't know what world class means in terms of photography, but like he spends all of his free time doing photography.
[00:10:05] Keith: I bring him up because he posts to Facebook like two or three times a day, um just various musings. And
[00:10:16] Keith: ah Something like a year ago, his posts just got way, way, way better. And I immediately was like, oh, ah yeah, that this man is now using ChatGPT to reform his stuff.
[00:10:23] Mike: Oh,
[00:10:32] Keith: And ah yeah, I talked to him and he he's he's sort of blushed and he's like, yeah, like you know do you do you think... I i should or shouldn't. was like, no, it's it's genius.
[00:10:42] Keith: like I actually felt almost a little bit cheated because I didn't reckon... like At first, I was like, what's going on here? like why is this grammar like so much better? But like of course, that's what was going on. And yeah, I just think that... This is the a very short story, way too long for the sake of this thing. But yeah, I just think that...
[00:11:02] Keith: people should recognize how much ignorance they, they portray when they can't communicate well.
[00:11:11] Mike: Do they do any of the, so I don't know if I don't use Insta really. I mean, i have an account, but I don't really use it. I don't use the dating apps. Do any of these things have like a button that will automatically correct what you write?
[00:11:19] Keith: Yeah.
[00:11:23] Keith: No, I think, um, hinge or,
[00:11:24] Mike: Interesting.
[00:11:29] Keith: button bolt One of them had some tool where it would evaluate your profile
[00:11:37] Mike: Okay.
[00:11:37] Keith: ah And it would tell you ah some notes on on what you had written, like whether it's to X, Y, or Z.
[00:11:37] Mike: Okay.
[00:11:46] Keith: um And then I heard their CEO on a podcast and it was either Tinder, Bumble, or Hinge. was one of the big three. And he was saying that ah they asked, the hosts asked the CEO man, do you think yeah like don't you think these are quickly going to homogenize into everybody having the exact same profile according to what the AI thinks is best?
[00:12:10] Keith: And he was like, well, we don't actually tell people what to write.
[00:12:11] Mike: Right.
[00:12:13] Keith: We will tell them your profile is this is to this or to that, but we don't we don't actually say these that this is what you should change it to.
[00:12:24] Keith: And yeah, my immediate thought was like, yeah, well, for now, and like what's to stop me from actually doing that?
[00:12:25] Mike: Yeah. Okay.
[00:12:30] Keith: And um I do on dating apps occasionally get messages from people that are obviously written by LLMs. And I always call people out on it.
[00:12:38] Mike: Okay.
[00:12:39] Keith: There's one thing you can tell, like chat GPT loves the M dash. So if somebody who, you know maybe doesn't look like they would be the greatest writer, send you this, you know really good, you know, opening a paragraph and, you know, there's like seven M dashes in it's like, oh, okay, well, and,
[00:12:58] Mike: Does ChatTPT, I haven't noticed, I mean, I believe you that it uses that, but I haven't like analyzed ChatTPT. Does it use it correctly where it has the mdash and there's no spaces on either side of it?
[00:13:08] Keith: ah i
[00:13:10] Mike: which is Which is the correct usage. You're supposed to like end one word immediately to the mdash and then no space again into the next word.
[00:13:15] Keith: yeah You're asking the expert on this. So um apparently,
[00:13:19] Mike: Okay.
[00:13:20] Keith: um
[00:13:23] Keith: what's the... Okay, there's there's the E.B. White style guide, White, and like what's this? There's that book about...
[00:13:33] Mike: ah Yeah, I mean, there' yeah, there's a book.
[00:13:34] Keith: There's some style guide.
[00:13:35] Mike: There's a yes.
[00:13:36] Keith: And then there's the AP style guide. And then there's...
[00:13:38] Mike: AP style guy is the one I know. Yeah.
[00:13:40] Keith: Okay. There is there is actual disagreement on whether there should be spaces around the M- or not.
[00:13:46] Mike: Okay. All right. Yeah, the AP style guy, I'm sure has has no spaces.
[00:13:47] Keith: I looked this up.
[00:13:50] Mike: But yeah.
[00:13:50] Keith: I looked this up last week. um I do know with ChatGPT, if you ask it to use less emdashes, it will always say like, oh, sure, yeah, you know no problem.
[00:14:01] Keith: But ah you know three prompts later, it'll just start using them again. It really, really wants to use emdashes. It's one of the things. I don't know what they would need to change in their weights or or whatever to make it you use fewer emdashes, but it really, really wants to.
[00:14:13] Mike: Right. Right.
[00:14:17] Keith: Unless you've like told it, you know Don't use it. And even if you do, it'll sometimes like interject emdashes. And then you'll say, like wait, are you trolling me? What are you doing? I told you not to use emdashes. It'll be like, oh, yeah, my sorry. Let me try again.
[00:14:30] Keith: like it's
[00:14:30] Mike: right
[00:14:31] Keith: loves emdashes. um But that's important because was... was curious if like m dashes really were the sort of canary in the coal mine to to like tell when somebody's using an llm and at least for chat gpt i'm not sure if claude has the same problem but yeah it's it's just a giveaway
[00:14:51] Mike: That's interesting. Uh, okay. So, so the, the, I mean, in some ways this would be the meta on a dating profile, this would be the metaphorical equivalent. If a man, a man could spruce up his text, a woman could, I could imagine AI tools that basically make the woman look a lot better.
[00:15:06] Mike: in her photos. I mean, I think we have to live in the real world here. So as we were discussing right at the beginning of the show, I mean, the the man man looks at the woman's photos, the woman reads the man's prose. They have different things that that are primary in their minds.
[00:15:21] Mike: But of course, eventually the people are going to meet. And so basically in some ways, these platforms would just with AI tools be facilitating a less accurate match when the people do meet because the woman won't look the way she does in her photos and the man will not sound as smart as he did in his prose.
[00:15:38] Keith: Yeah,
[00:15:41] Keith: I had an argument with a ah former fling recently about this. ah We occasionally shoot messages back and forth of at each other asking about various online dating things.
[00:15:57] Keith: And I really have ah pet peeve when people in their online dating profiles have a picture of them with someone else. and the someone else is more attractive.
[00:16:06] Mike: Okay.
[00:16:09] Keith: um and I've discussed on the show before when the someone else is like their mother. and i really don't like that either because you're basically getting like a flash forward of what the uglier version of this person is going to be.
[00:16:22] Keith: um
[00:16:22] Mike: okay
[00:16:22] Keith: i think women should shouldn't do that. But anyway, this conversation I was having with this person was about when people have like a picture with a friend where the friend is hotter. And And some people, I'm sure that the most women women would say like, oh, you know i'll I'll say which person I am. Or if they scroll through my photos, they can figure out which one I am.
[00:16:43] Keith: you know they They play Balderdash. but Do you remember that game? It's not Balderdash where you have to like basically, you you have to triangulate like which pegs or which colors by, you know it'll tell you.
[00:16:49] Mike: I know Hungry Hippo. Oh, you're talking. What is that called?
[00:16:57] Keith: Wordle's like this, right? like you You enter five letters and it tells you which words or which letters are in the right position.
[00:17:02] Mike: Sure.
[00:17:04] Keith: But yeah, you can basically play Wordle with these photos.
[00:17:06] Mike: Mastermind, mastermind, mastermind.
[00:17:08] Keith: Mastermind, that's the one. Yes, thank you.
[00:17:09] Mike: Yeah, you're welcome.
[00:17:10] Keith: What did I say? Balderdash. Yeah, Balderdash is a vocab game.
[00:17:11] Mike: Yeah.
[00:17:13] Keith: um
[00:17:13] Mike: Okay.
[00:17:14] Keith: Mastermind's really popular in Europe and not so much in the United States. Anyway, Yeah, like I can triangulate like which one you are, but if I have to do that and you're not the fucking hot one, I'm just infuriated.
[00:17:25] Keith: And like, I just can't understand why women would would ever think it's a good idea to to do that.
[00:17:26] Mike: Right.
[00:17:34] Keith: Yeah.
[00:17:35] Mike: Well, not just that, but you're showing. ah So if you if you get, I mean, as a man, I mean, there's a social dimension to this too. If you then show the photo to a friend, you're like, oh, you know, who are you going out tonight with? Oh, um Denise.
[00:17:46] Mike: Oh, let me see your photo. And you show the photo, then he's immediately going to mock you for the fact that there's a more attractive woman in the photo. Like, it's just lame. It's like, it makes it so you have this.
[00:17:54] Keith: Yes.
[00:17:56] Mike: And and and every time you look at the photo, you have this small negative experience. I mean, like, oh, wonder i wonder what she's doing. Yeah.
[00:18:03] Keith: I get so mad. There's so much about online dating that bothers me, but it always comes down. I think the core thing that that makes me so mad is that it's so easy for women to get a date.
[00:18:16] Keith: And
[00:18:17] Mike: Yeah.
[00:18:17] Keith: They can have these awful profiles and it just doesn't matter. Like if they're five, it's pretty easy for them to find a date with a seven and women would contest this, but they're just wrong.
[00:18:29] Keith: Like we know we've, we've been through the math for every female swipe. There's 40 male swipes and you know, it,
[00:18:34] Mike: Well, it's not that. They wouldn't say that. They would say, let's say you take a woman who's in her early 30s, late 20s. She would say, yes, I can get a date, but they're all going to be these guys that are just fuckboys or whatever.
[00:18:48] Mike: i'm not going to i'm not like So they're not getting a date with somebody that actually has the same intentions on the date that she does or the intentions she wants him to have.
[00:18:56] Keith: Okay, well, that may be, but she's welcome to try and filter harder.
[00:18:57] Mike: like i mean
[00:19:01] Mike: No, it's true, but i mean a woman a woman can...
[00:19:01] Keith: She can't. I can't. Like, if I filter, I would never go on a date. Like, it's...
[00:19:07] Mike: Yeah, but man, like, I don't, I don't, like you don't have sympathy for that?
[00:19:07] Keith: I don't have, like, a whole lot of... Come on.
[00:19:11] Mike: I do, because...
[00:19:11] Keith: I mean, if I have some.
[00:19:12] Mike: I
[00:19:13] Keith: Like, I know that basically men out there are basically trying to get laid, and they'll say and do whatever it takes to um reach that goal. But... ah
[00:19:23] Mike: i feel like, I feel like I have a lot more, i guess, empathy, or I'm able to imagine the female side of this much better than that. Like, she you know, a woman goes out with this guy, she's going to, if they have sex, she's going to do this thing that,
[00:19:36] Mike: I just think like naturally, forgetting about gender differences, I think if sex involved, like I think if it was a gay guy and it was a bottom, it would be more complicated. I think that i sex would bond me to the person more because they stuck something in my body.
[00:19:51] Mike: I just think it would do that.
[00:19:51] Keith: Yeah.
[00:19:52] Mike: And so they have to do this thing that's like a more bonding. And then then they have to go through this like turmoil of having the guy not be what they wanted, having him So so this so that so there's it's a much higher stakes.
[00:20:04] Mike: It's much higher stakes for her, where the whereas the man can just say, oh, well, like if you have sex with a woman and she turns out not to be someone that you mesh with, it's not as you you haven't invested nearly as much as she has. And then on top of that, I mean, the real thing is the biological drive where Her body is designed, i think, or her brain is designed to get more attached to the guy once they have sex because, you know, sort of evolutionarily speaking, she is reasonably likely to be pregnant after a sexual encounter.
[00:20:32] Mike: Whereas the guy, like, who cares? Like, if he he spread his seed, he can move on, right? So I have like, it makes sense to me why this is like, it's, there's, it just moves around where the high stakes thing is. The high stakes thing for the man is the hunt.
[00:20:43] Mike: The high stakes man thing for the woman is like keeping the guy is like, or in having him be compatible. It's that, which is in some ways that's harder because it's like, so she can, it's harder.
[00:20:51] Keith: Okay.
[00:20:53] Mike: Cause it's like, she's given something up. Like the only thing the man risks is rejection. The thing the woman risks is like this.
[00:21:00] Keith: That's not true.
[00:21:01] Mike: I don't know, dude, I wouldn't, you
[00:21:01] Keith: i would like to have... I would like i would like also... i basically have ah a multi-objective hunt going on. I would be happy with finding someone that is fun and that I enjoy having sex with, or I would enjoy finding a potential life partner.
[00:21:21] Keith: It's not that I don't want a life partner. It's that I have a secondary or maybe even primary objective that is almost as good in my mind. So...
[00:21:32] Mike: I think women do too. It's just that they're it's just that I think that the but the mental, ah the the way like their hormones work or their brains work makes it different. And I really do think that the the way the sex act works for a woman just puts her in a position where it's not it's it's not ah it's not like you're having sex with a fleshlight or something.
[00:21:53] Mike: it's not it can't It can't be perceived that way.
[00:21:53] Keith: Okay.
[00:21:55] Mike: It's perceived as like very intrusive and ah intimate in a way that it doesn't it really doesn't have to be as a guy.
[00:21:59] Keith: So, all right, fine. So don't you think that they should ah be pretty mindful and intentional and careful and filterful when they are searching for someone to go on a date with?
[00:22:12] Mike: Yes, I think that, I mean, this is one of the things that...
[00:22:14] Keith: what And having a fucking profile with lazy photos, ah really generic text saying that you like travel and going out to dinner. And ah when people like me come across cut somehow come across your radar, perfunctorily responding boring things and not... like like It's really hard for me to... like They need to try to be selecting better. And I get it. It's hard because the problem I have is like I can't get anyone in the funnel.
[00:22:42] Keith: The problem they have is there are just so many people in the funnel. like How can they possibly choose one? Well, that's a problem I would love to have. I would love to have that problem.
[00:22:50] Mike: But I think like, I don't think that's the real problem. I think that the real problem that, okay, fine, your yours is directionally right for the problem men have. And the kind of exemplar of that ah is an incel because you have a guy who's just basically taken it to the extreme and decided to abandon dating, fucking whatever, because he can't get anybody into the funnel.
[00:23:11] Mike: And that's more present now than being,
[00:23:11] Keith: They're so exacerbated that, yeah, they basically turn evil, right?
[00:23:17] Mike: Yeah, and it gets and it gets worse and it's gotten a lot worse in the last like 20 years because of things like online dating because they don't they don't have the ability to sort of pigeonhole. there There aren't situations where a woman kind of gets to know them ah in a more natural way.
[00:23:31] Mike: And so if you're unattractive as a man or short or whatever, like any of these various things, you're kind of of a more beta personality, it's much harder now than it was before because there just aren't these natural connectors ah socially.
[00:23:42] Mike: but maybe like going to church, like there are various things like that. But for a woman, ah you have an equivalent thing. And it's not it's not that they're inundated with choice. It's that it's that they they have been told by society to undervalue, to to to simultaneously pursue the goal of the actual goal women have, which is to find a life partner.
[00:24:05] Mike: And to pursue just like casual sex. And the problem is that those are not, you can't pursue those at the same time. And so the women with the lazy profile, yeah, they're not like, actually that's in my mind, a woman with a lazy profile is definitely not interested in a life partner because that's a retarded way to go about that.
[00:24:23] Mike: Right.
[00:24:23] Keith: They're all lazy though.
[00:24:23] Mike: She's, they're not, I don't believe that.
[00:24:24] Keith: Like, like see this profile and and they'll be like, I'll say something like I'm new to online dating. For me, that's almost like a mind blowing experience.
[00:24:35] Mike: Yeah.
[00:24:37] Keith: You know, I'm 44 years old I might have been on 1,000 dates that were initiated by meeting online.
[00:24:43] Mike: yeah
[00:24:46] Keith: And I have thought so much about the science behind it and the art behind it and you know just the parade of issues around it and what it means to like search for a partner. And like and like here comes this person that's naively is like, that I'm new to online dating.
[00:25:05] Keith: like For starters, like putting that in your profile is is probably ah mistake because that might attract a certain kind of person.
[00:25:16] Keith: um But yeah, it's just a yeah it's almost like impossible for me to imagine somebody who's gotten to my age in life without ever really considering what it's like to try to find a partner effectively.
[00:25:31] Mike: So, I mean, I was talking with, ah I have a conversation partner in Mexico in Spanish right now, and I was talking her about quinceanera. You know what this is?
[00:25:39] Keith: Yeah. Yes.
[00:25:40] Mike: It's this party that, actually, I learned today that the quinceanera is the person, not the party.
[00:25:40] Keith: yes
[00:25:45] Mike: ah The party is your, you know, your 15-year-old party, not, anyway, it's the person. Although in the United States, it's colloquial to so talk about the party as with that word. And she was saying that like the point of it, there's all these rituals they have in Mexico because the point of it was historically, i guess this is somewhat obvious, but the like when when the girl turned 15, her father was basically like handing her over.
[00:26:07] Mike: but it was like a debutante party, right? So at that moment, she was supposed to find the guy she was going to marry.
[00:26:09] Keith: Yes.
[00:26:13] Mike: And that kind of cultural structure, while I guess ah you could argue it's like, what do they call it, the patriarchy or something? I think it serves a real purpose in that it's creating this very special moment, you dress up a lot.
[00:26:27] Mike: It's the opposite of a shitty dating profile, right? It's a woman doing all this stuff to basically be as compelling as possible to then find a suitor. And to me, it's the problem women have is that culturally they've been told, don't do things like that. And so if you're telling me that there basically no women that put a lot of effort into their dating profiles, that's a pretty damning signal to ah society, frankly, because it means that the message women are getting is oh, you know you just fuck a bunch of guys and one of them will stick.
[00:26:58] Mike: And that's a really, really, like if i do if I do not think that's the right way for a woman to find a man. The right way would be to say, okay, I'm i'm looking for a man.
[00:27:04] Keith: I don't either. and
[00:27:06] Mike: I'm going to put a really good profile together. I'm going to like be really serious about this. Yeah, and just do it. Get it done. like and it's go Yeah, you're goingnna it's going to be a lot of effort, actually, and it should be. it What's wrong with that? I mean, quinceaneras cost a lot of money. Anyway.
[00:27:20] Keith: next time Next time we get together in person, I'll pull up all the thousands of dating apps I have on my phone, and we can just look at profiles.
[00:27:20] Mike: anyway
[00:27:29] Mike: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:30] Keith: And I would be curious if you agree with my assessment that almost every profile is ah clearly quote-unquote lazy. for what ah you know I don't know how we would adjudicate that, but ah it's just...
[00:27:43] Mike: the only other doubt i yeah The only other doubt I have is like, where are there women on something some other app like eHarmony something? I don't even know if that still exists. but One of these like things that's like for the serious people or something.
[00:27:55] Mike: Like maybe maybe it's ah maybe this is a problem of the dating apps. Now, I actually kind of doubt that because i don't I think that the dating apps like Bumble, Hinge, Tinder, like these things have kind of won.
[00:28:05] Mike: I mean, I don't think there really is anything else at this point.
[00:28:06] Keith: I don't think it... I just don't think it matters. I think that... ah Let me think about this. It's so easy for women to find a date. like I dated somebody for five years.
[00:28:17] Keith: You met her and remember her. um Her profile, we met on OKCupid. And I remember specifically. She had like six photos no captions on them. And under, you know, OKCupid has really aggressively tries to get you to write a bunch about her stuff.
[00:28:36] Keith: She had no text anywhere. ah but She had just, yeah.
[00:28:39] Mike: Oh, really? It was just pictures.
[00:28:41] Keith: And ah she told me, ah she's a's a pseudonym for it. Let's call her Sarah. Sarah told me that
[00:28:51] Keith: She created her account and her intention was to like put stuff, but you know she created her account one night and like uploaded the photos. And I think you needed to wait for the photos to get approved. So like she was waiting for the photos to get approved. And then she logged in the next day and she had like 100 inbound messages.
[00:29:07] Mike: Right.
[00:29:08] Keith: And she was like, what's even the point? like if i If I make myself seem more compelling, what am I going to have like a thousand inbound messages? like I already have way more here than I could possibly ever deal with.
[00:29:21] Keith: and so And that was her excuse.
[00:29:22] Mike: Well, if someone's that compelling,
[00:29:22] Keith: But yeah, yeah I went after pretty hard. I went after her pretty hard saying like, look, like you you your profile is garbage.
[00:29:25] Mike: mean
[00:29:30] Keith: Like, why didn't you say anything?
[00:29:30] Mike: Well, I mean, she could also she could also put things in her profile. I mean, this must happen. Like, she could put things in her profile like, look, these are like the five things I expect if you message me. And they could be things like, look, you must have gone to a top 10 college.
[00:29:44] Keith: Yes.
[00:29:44] Mike: You must have had an SAT score above this.
[00:29:45] Keith: This is...
[00:29:46] Mike: Like, you can do that as a woman. I don't really know why they wouldn't. You might you know you must have this a job that pays this.
[00:29:50] Keith: Like...
[00:29:51] Mike: You know, fine.
[00:29:51] Keith: I so strongly agree with this. I don't understand why like every profile i read doesn't have this like long list of obnoxious things that like make me feel badly about myself.
[00:30:00] Mike: Yeah. Sure.
[00:30:02] Keith: like i would I can tick, I think, most of the boxes that women are looking for, but yeah, they should say, yeah, you must be into this like esoteric hobby I have.
[00:30:02] Mike: sure
[00:30:11] Keith: ah you must be into you know this that you know You must be willing to come to my place for Christmas every year. you know They should just have this long list of onerous demands that And they would still, i think, maybe would just be the case that men just wouldn't read it. They're just trying to get laid. They would just say yes. They would pretend, all those things. I don't know.
[00:30:30] Mike: That's a fair point. So, yeah, i mean, this is.
[00:30:30] Keith: Definitely experiment. I would definitely experiment.
[00:30:33] Mike: Yeah, this is. Yeah, yeah, I don't I don't know. you You're saying you never see that, though, is the point.
[00:30:38] Keith: Never.
[00:30:38] Mike: And so that implies that women aren't even trying because you're right that men would falsify it. But I don't know, man, like if she said, look, I'm going to verify this shit before I have sex. I think most guys would be like, I don't want to deal with this.
[00:30:48] Keith: Right.
[00:30:50] Mike: Like she's like, OK, show me your diploma.
[00:30:50] Keith: Right.
[00:30:52] Mike: Like, i want to see the paper. You're like, great.
[00:30:54] Keith: Right. Show me your LinkedIn. Let's go.
[00:30:57] Mike: Yeah. Which would be, yeah, it's, it's, it's strange.
[00:30:58] Keith: Yeah.
[00:30:59] Mike: So, I mean, yeah, the only way I can interpret that is, or a way, a reasonable way to interpret that is this sort of feminism thing that like women are, women have been taught or decided, Hey, I don't have to be selective like that.
[00:31:11] Mike: I can operate just like a man. And the problem is men, men don't operate the way they want would want them to.
[00:31:14] Keith: Yeah.
[00:31:17] Mike: Men don't care. Men just want to have sex once and flee. You don't agree with that?
[00:31:22] Keith: No, i agree with that. i I'm trying to think, like what is Occam's razor here for why female dating profiles are just so bad? I think it's that it did it just doesn't need to be good.
[00:31:38] Keith: And even if it were perfect, it would just put a little bit more work on the woman. And so they can just have what the thing that matters are their pictures.
[00:31:50] Keith: And if they're even remote, if they're even remotely, you know, quote unquote hot, they're going to do just fine.
[00:31:50] Mike: Yeah, that's right.
[00:31:55] Keith: And so there just isn't a whole lot of incentive. Maybe they don't appreciate how much easier it would be to find actually, at at least you and I are theorizing how much easier it might be that for them to find eligible bachelors.
[00:32:10] Mike: Well, i think I think that, I mean, yeah, that makes sense to me that a woman, if I think from a historical cultural context, I don't think that a woman historically would put out much more than what she looks like. That would be the thing that attracts, she's like the,
[00:32:23] Mike: the whatever, the thing that attracts the bees. She's the flower, right? so says So they're going to be attracted to the image. But the thing she can do is put out, hey, I require this, this, this. Like she can do that.
[00:32:33] Keith: Right.
[00:32:33] Mike: She can she can create filters. and i don't and And the only reason I can think of for women not creating filters, I can think of two. One is Well, I mean, yeah, it's one is that like it doesn't work because the guys will just lie. I don't totally believe that because I think that I think she could make it annoying enough that she verifies ah and before sex. And two ah is this thing where there's a cultural she feels shamed to do that. She feels some sort of cultural baggage. She can't do that. And then I think in my head, oh, well, she that's because.
[00:33:02] Mike: ah she doesn't want to have to be a woman. She wants to get to be a man. She wants to operate like a man, right? So she wants to have a profile that shows pictures and says, I'm into badminton and I like to travel and do this. And it's like, honestly, honey, that nobody cares about that.
[00:33:16] Mike: Like you should be filtering. Your job is to filter. Like it's great that you like all those things. It's not a bad thing.
[00:33:20] Keith: Yeah.
[00:33:20] Mike: It's cool. And in a relationship that'll work out. But like when you're just like, you're the flower, you're not the bee. And so like, you're not flying around looking for flowers because you get the wrong idea here. That's my take.
[00:33:32] Keith: I'm also irritated, Mike, because women don't filter like this. I know that I'm always ah having to...
[00:33:38] Mike: Right.
[00:33:40] Keith: shout loud enough in ah in a sea of people shouting.
[00:33:43] Mike: right
[00:33:43] Keith: like I think I would sort much better than I currently do, and I sort pretty well in a more a much more restricted environment. I have a specific example of of this dynamic, which I want to get your feedback on.
[00:33:55] Keith: So on seeking.com, which is the website where the sugar daddies try to find sugar babies. Yeah.
[00:34:03] Mike: And there's probably more concrete filtering, frankly, on that site than anywhere else. Like the the women probably have more requirements, but go on. Like if ironically, the one that people think is antisocial is actually sort of doing the right thing, but go ahead.
[00:34:09] Keith: yeah
[00:34:15] Keith: Right. Yes. Yeah, it's saying the quiet part out loud. um
[00:34:19] Mike: Yes.
[00:34:20] Keith: There's a lot of debate in the sugaring community about whether women should expect payment on the first meeting.
[00:34:31] Keith: ah
[00:34:32] Mike: Okay.
[00:34:32] Keith: And a lot of the men say, you shouldn't tell women that you are going to give them money on the first meeting because... You're just encouraging them to quote-unquote rinse you.
[00:34:43] Keith: And what what rinsing is, the is the woman shows up once, you know takes the money, and then you know promises you that she'll sleep with you next time, and then you know she just gets the cash.
[00:34:45] Mike: Yes.
[00:34:52] Keith: And so you really increase your your risk of being defrauded by by agreeing to pay. Yeah. Some of them say you should you should say you're not going to pay, and then at the end, as a surprise, give give a gift. And so there's like all this discussion.
[00:35:06] Keith: But I have long thought that a six a sufficiently ah attractive woman, and usually it's sexually attractive, but you know other things can constitute attractiveness, a sufficiently attractive woman should just say on her profile, um i require they think it is on ah on a first meet And they could go on and say, ah recognize that a lot of you boys out there have been burned in the past by agreeing to this kind of thing. But my inbox is so full that I can afford to do this.
[00:35:41] Keith: And if you're not interested, that's fine. um But this helps me make sure that I'm not wasting my time and my time is very valuable to me. And I think if you're hot enough, then ah yeah, like...
[00:35:54] Keith: It might even be helpful. like its I might see that and be like, huh, she really is smug enough to know her value instead of just saying she knows her value. like she's she's She's actually betting on herself here in a way that might actually be a positive sign.
[00:36:10] Keith: um But anyway, what do you what do you think women should do?
[00:36:14] Mike: Well, um on that top, on that aspect, I think it's an interesting one. I mean, in biology, I don't know much about biology, actually, but I know that it is very common for animals to falsify the signals of other animals to basically like it's it's a thing that evolves a lot in nature.
[00:36:27] Keith: Yep. yeah
[00:36:30] Mike: And I think what you're talking, there's also like, you know, people can look up game theory and stag hunt and prisoner's dilemma and all this sort of stuff. They're these standard things. game theory situations where people are operating with partial information. So the problem is you don't know, you have partial information as the man, which is you don't know how often this woman takes the money and then just basically talks to you and then takes off and you never hear from her again.
[00:36:54] Mike: And so because of that, a lot of guys will say, look, like it's, I just, I don't want that. It will make me feel bad if that happens.
[00:37:02] Keith: <unk> right
[00:37:02] Mike: And also there's an incentive for her, for someone in her position to do that because women in general don't, there's a social stigma around something that could be deemed prostitution.
[00:37:13] Mike: So they don't want to accept payment for, for money.
[00:37:14] Keith: Yeah, sex work.
[00:37:19] Mike: And so there's, so it creates this like complicated game theoretical problem. And the thing I don't know
[00:37:22] Keith: Definitely.
[00:37:23] Mike: I don't know whether doing that actually would get the guy she wants. Let's say she's doing it. She wants the best guy out of the pile of a thousand guys. She's like, I want to get the best five and get a chance to meet them. I'm not actually sure that would get the best five.
[00:37:36] Mike: I think it would get some weird mix of guys, some of whom would just be like,
[00:37:36] Keith: Yep.
[00:37:41] Mike: really old dudes that just have, now like, it might, you know, that just just really, really want to hang out with a really hot chick or something and and have so much disposable money they don't care. And now, if that's what she wants, fine. But but I think there are genuinely compelling guys that would just say, you know, here's the thing. Here's the thing, Keith.
[00:37:59] Mike: That's filtering a little bit on stupidity. That's the point. Like, if you do that, you're kind of stupid because, like, honestly, and here, wait, wait, but one more thing I want to say about that really quickly.
[00:38:06] Keith: Okay, I have a Zeg here.
[00:38:09] Mike: The falsification thing. If that worked for one woman, a bunch of women are going to do it. And so even if there's one woman that's doing it in good faith, ah like animals in the in the wild, the signal will be falsified.
[00:38:17] Keith: No, I disagree. but Okay, wait, you're you're saying too many things here, Mike. You have to stop.
[00:38:20] Mike: Okay, go ahead.
[00:38:21] Keith: You have to let me talk.
[00:38:22] Mike: Okay.
[00:38:22] Keith: ah One, i I understand your intuition that you might be filtering for stupidity. Like only only dumb, naive men would would would agree to this.
[00:38:31] Mike: Yes.
[00:38:33] Keith: My thought was that you would be filtering on men who are wealthy enough to be willing to take the risk. like like
[00:38:41] Mike: Yeah.
[00:38:42] Keith: She's basically saying, like if you want to get with me, you need to roll the dice. And a sufficiently wealthy man and a man who's sufficiently confident in his self to like ah you know impress somebody would be like, all right, yeah, let's go.
[00:38:48] Mike: Yeah.
[00:38:59] Keith: um But yes, on the other side of that is that you open up yourself to risk.
[00:39:00] Mike: Yeah.
[00:39:03] Keith: But if if you're wealthy enough, you shouldn't really care. And the woman does need to show up to collect the cash from you. It's not like she this is an online transaction. um And so, but yes, there there is there is there is risk involved here.
[00:39:13] Mike: That's true.
[00:39:17] Keith: It would it would be nice if that there was a way to put money in escrow here. um But...
[00:39:22] Mike: Yeah, it's, you know, it's a fair point that it's, it's a, it's, um, it is an interesting game theory problem. I do think the signal would get falsified. In other words, I do think there are women, if that worked, there would be other women who would have no intention ever of having sex with any these men that would start doing it.
[00:39:33] Keith: Right. That's... That's the second thing I wanted to address.
[00:39:37] Mike: Um, yeah.
[00:39:38] Keith: I don't think there's enough perfect information for if this strategy worked well.
[00:39:49] Keith: Maybe you're right. um and yeah Maybe the reason why almost all women's profiles are dumb is because it just doesn't matter. and other things like This is just what it's what's evolved as the ideal solution.
[00:40:02] Keith: um it it That could be the case. But... but
[00:40:08] Keith: I don't know. i don't i just Maybe I should try this myself. like I could ask JetGPT to you know generate generate me five photos of a hot person doing various things, and then I could create my own you know seeking account and then try to try to um lure men into you know giving me money for free.
[00:40:25] Mike: Oh, yeah. Sure.
[00:40:33] Keith: i don't know. Yeah, I don't
[00:40:35] Mike: You've never, you've, haven't you tried before to get a woman on seeking to let you kind of run her profile and never had a person willing to, have you actually asked? Seems like you could say, hey, I think I can optimize what you're doing better, essentially be her seeking pimp.
[00:40:44] Keith: ah
[00:40:47] Keith: ah you i i've yeah I've had a few offer to let me do it. um One, I actually am still in contact with, and I probably just should. Um, it on my side, it's just been laziness. I just haven't felt like exerting the effort.
[00:41:03] Mike: Sure.
[00:41:03] Keith: Um, I've had a couple other people, ah whom I was dating say like, yeah, well, it I guess but after we we end the dating period of our, uh, um, don't want to use the word arrangement here because they weren't.
[00:41:15] Mike: Relationship.
[00:41:17] Keith: Yeah.
[00:41:18] Mike: Yeah.
[00:41:19] Keith: Um, um, They've asked me if I would run their profiles for them. And in both of those cases, I've thought they were too crazy and unreliable.
[00:41:31] Keith: like I didn't think they would be good clients for me.
[00:41:32] Mike: Yeah.
[00:41:34] Keith: And so, yeah, and I didn't want to do that.
[00:41:34] Mike: That's interesting.
[00:41:37] Keith: that That's a pretty common problem on Seeking is that the women there are... ah not the most reliable for various reasons. The kind of people that get driven driven toward actually engaging in sex work are normally, are often not in the greatest place in their lives.
[00:41:47] Mike: Well, I mean, yeah.
[00:41:53] Mike: Yeah.
[00:41:56] Mike: Yeah, that makes sense. um But yeah, I mean, that it's interesting. So, so okay hang on. So in terms of this question of women being filters, ah What is the filter mechanism then? You're saying that even on seeking, there isn't enough of a filter mechanism that basically they just chat with you for a while and then kind of shoot from the hip as to whether they'll meet up with you. I mean, do they ask you when you're prior to meeting or or at some point early in the conversation to give them something that demonstrates that you're the kind of guy they would want to hang out with?
[00:42:24] Mike: Or is it just, you
[00:42:24] Keith: No, it's it's crazy. like I i use Seeking as a dating app, so i ah have never had an arrangement. And it works better than Tinder and Bumble for me because there's just far fewer men on there.
[00:42:42] Keith: It costs, I think, $120 a month. And so it's it just weeds out a lot of the chaff.
[00:42:45] Mike: Right.
[00:42:48] Keith: um And there aren't there are some men there that are trying to run various scams, but there's cheaper places to do it. And so I find that i can when I message a woman on there, they are much more responsive, probably because of the implied quid pro quo of eventually getting arrangement money.
[00:43:07] Keith: I very early revealed that I'm not interested in an arrangement, but I've A-B tested this a little bit.
[00:43:08] Mike: right
[00:43:14] Keith: I've i've tried doing the reveal later. And yeah, it's remarkable to me how bad at ensuring that I'm going to be a reliable provider women women do.
[00:43:26] Keith: like They just don't.
[00:43:28] Mike: What do you mean by that? are Are you saying that when no matter when you tell, I think what you're saying is no matter when you tell them, you're not going to give them money. This, the result is the same. If you tell them at the beginning, then some percentage are willing to continue talking to you.
[00:43:40] Mike: And if you wait until you've had a lot of messages, the same exact percentage, like, so it doesn't really matter. It's just, is that is that what you're saying?
[00:43:45] Keith: Oh, that's not what I was saying, but that has been my general finding.
[00:43:48] Mike: Okay.
[00:43:49] Keith: it Yeah. My intuition was that if I told them sooner, they would have less reason to think I'm cool. Like I would be wooing them with my words. And then when I pulled the rug and said like, well, you know, I'm actually...
[00:43:58] Mike: right
[00:44:01] Keith: you know i' I'm happy to you know pay for dinner and and you know entertainment and various odds and ends, but I'm not interested in ah you know paying for your time in a classic arrangement dynamic.
[00:44:12] Keith: ah My intuition was that if I said that sooner than later, i would... Yeah, you want to get people... What's the... You want to get people sort of...
[00:44:21] Mike: You want to warm them up or whatever.
[00:44:23] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:23] Mike: Yeah.
[00:44:24] Keith: ah
[00:44:24] Mike: But this, you know, what's funny about this is it comports.
[00:44:25] Keith: And what I was saying, Mike... Sorry, let let me say what I was saying.
[00:44:28] Mike: ah
[00:44:29] Keith: What I was saying is that
[00:44:29] Mike: Yeah.
[00:44:33] Keith: I think that women on seeking should be really quickly quickly trying to ascertain whether the men they're talking to are going to pony up the cash. And if you are meek or embarrassed about asking about that, seeking is not the place you want to be.
[00:44:42] Mike: Hmm.
[00:44:47] Keith: like Men want to have sex without having to pay for it.
[00:44:48] Mike: Hmm.
[00:44:51] Keith: And the best, most gentlemanly men with the most money ah might offer that on their own.
[00:44:52] Mike: Right.
[00:44:58] Keith: But in general, you need to be comfortable ah having awkward, uncomfortable conversations with men that frankly are like more powerful and better negotiators than you. And if you are waiting for them to come out and say it, then you're going to spend a lot of time being dis disappointed. And um I think it's remarkable how bad the average woman is on there. Yeah.
[00:45:17] Mike: Okay, so guys will beat around the bush. They'll avoid... they'll try Yeah, they're going to try to basically ignore the fact they've met this person on seeking until she... she Basically, the women... This reminds... There's a couple things I want to say. This reminds me of the condom thing where women basically say... I've had many women report to me that...
[00:45:34] Mike: effectively no men you know it's very small percentage of men, in aex or an early sexual encounter will say, oh, let me get the condom. It's always the woman who has to say, hey, where where's your condom at?
[00:45:44] Keith: Yep. Yep.
[00:45:45] Mike: um
[00:45:45] Keith: Yeah.
[00:45:46] Mike: So yeah, that makes me... the and then the other thing I wanted to say, it's it's also sort of by analogy, is that ah There's a an oft-repeated maxim among women that men just sort of at some point in their life decide they're ready to get married.
[00:45:58] Mike: There's some comedian, I think, that talks about the man like a taxi with its light on, although that but in the in the age of Uber doesn't speak to people as much.
[00:46:03] Keith: yeah
[00:46:06] Mike: um But I think there's some equivalent maxim with women that basically they decide if they're going to have sex with you like really early on, maybe just from your photos. And so what you're because what you're saying is that the like so when you when ah when a woman on seeking first contacts has some contact with you, they very quickly know whether they're willing to have sex with you without payment.
[00:46:27] Keith: Yes.
[00:46:27] Mike: And it doesn't really matter when you reveal to them that you're not paying. It's the same because the thing is, and this is the critical thing, just like the guy with the taxi light, the woman decided if she was willing to like, you know, suck your cock in the first five minutes.
[00:46:40] Mike: And then the whole, that all the rest is just academic. And i I think that's a mistake for the woman. Maybe it's a mistake for the man too with the marriage thing, but I think it's a mistake for the woman because
[00:46:45] Keith: yes
[00:46:50] Mike: you have like I just think women have lost touch up with their fucking role in the sexual dynamic. like it' Whatever. I think it's an important thing. It's like, if I had one thing out of our many episodes to communicate to women, it would probably be this. It's like, you guys are totally doing a bad job.
[00:47:04] Mike: You guys have like totally just ceded all the terrain to men.
[00:47:04] Keith: Yes.
[00:47:07] Mike: You have to use your brain to, like more than a guy does. You have to say, like is this guy what I want? And it's not just whether you want his cock in your mouth. It's not just whether he's the hottest guy. It's like,
[00:47:19] Mike: what do I picture myself? Do I want a guy who went to Penn State? Do I want a guy went to Harvard? Do i want a guy who didn't go to college? What kind of house do I want to live in? What kind of like family do I want to have? Or is he religious? Like it's all these things and like you have to find all that out.
[00:47:32] Mike: And that's what decides whether you have your guys's cock in your mouth, not the other part.
[00:47:35] Keith: they, women have this just fantastic negotiating position, which is they get to gatekeep sex.
[00:47:42] Mike: Yes.
[00:47:44] Keith: And it's just, it allows them to just be so much more choosy than than men can be.
[00:47:51] Mike: Yes.
[00:47:52] Keith: And i just, I would love to be, you know, in a woman's body for a month and like experiment with this and like try to understand where the various failure modes are.
[00:48:00] Mike: Oh, it's mostly negative. it's It's mostly negative, dude.
[00:48:02] Keith: I agree.
[00:48:02] Mike: It's the same thing I said because society, yeah.
[00:48:03] Keith: Yeah. But on this particular axis, which is having the leverage in in initial partner selection, they just other have so much.
[00:48:12] Mike: Sure. Sure.
[00:48:15] Keith: they They're the heavy side of the seesaw.
[00:48:15] Mike: But like you would, But you're just going to, yeah, you're all you would have is there'd be a lot of semen. You'd just be like kind of a dripping vagina on the cream pies subreddit at the end of that month and you would have no partners.
[00:48:26] Keith: That's great.
[00:48:27] Mike: It would just, they'd all run away and you would just be, wow, my body can't one up 30. You know, that's would happen.
[00:48:32] Keith: Maybe my ability to select would be better. you know in in order to ah ah In order to get back to my man's body, I need to like s seduce Prince Charming.
[00:48:39] Mike: Yeah, but that would...
[00:48:43] Mike: Oh, I think you would do it. No, I think i think if if if that was your goal, and if women thought about their goals that way, that that would work. But the thing is, I'm just saying that like I know you want to be in the woman's body for the prurient interest of just a lot of sex, and I'm just saying that like it unfortunately, the thing that women are trying to do isn't that fun, or it's not it's not hot.
[00:49:03] Mike: It's not something that makes you horny. It's like yeah they want to have a stable life and stuff. Their job is different anyway.
[00:49:10] Keith: I have this weird... you know The question comes up every so often, you yeah what would you do if you were a woman for a day or whatever?
[00:49:17] Mike: Uh-oh, yeah.
[00:49:18] Keith: And I've often joked like, oh, I would just... you know plant myself in front of a mirror naked and masturbate all day. And I've recently started thinking about what would be...
[00:49:31] Keith: you know It's sort of hard to imagine, like, yeah, is it still my brain? And do I have like my testosterone, female-obsessed mindset? you know What does it even mean to be in the other...
[00:49:40] Mike: I think you have to assume no.
[00:49:42] Keith: Yeah, I mean, it's just hard to...
[00:49:42] Mike: You have to assume that you you're attracted to men. Yeah.
[00:49:46] Keith: Right. And so with the more interesting experience just to be to have sex with a man and know what that feels like.
[00:49:53] Mike: Yes.
[00:49:54] Keith: Yeah, probably.
[00:49:55] Mike: And it would feel bad because you would you only have one day. So you have to just find some random guy. He would treat you like shit. ah and like you would just You would just end the day like crying.
[00:50:07] Mike: And then you would switch back to a man and be like, wow, that sucked. That's what would happen. Because you're not going to i mean you're not going to have a fulfilling experience with a guy. it's gonna it's going to maybe but your odds The odds are strongly against you. It's not impossible, but it's unlikely.
[00:50:21] Mike: But i look, at most men, yeah, go on.
[00:50:22] Keith: I mean, hold on, hold on. If I could suddenly get into the body of a bottom gay man, you would disagree, right? you I think bottom bottoms might actually enjoy ah casual sex.
[00:50:36] Mike: I think so. I think it's possible. But I i said earlier on that I think that i so I somewhat strongly suspect that being the receptive partner, it's not just the way your brain works. Being receptive, meaning women versus men, being the receptive partner changes the way that you apprehend the situation.
[00:50:54] Mike: um I mean, for one thing, if you're a bottom, just like a woman receiving penetration, like it's unlikely the penetrative act is going to give you an orgasm. So you're sort of just masturbating with this guy, sticking things up your butt.
[00:51:08] Mike: And so it's not like it's so mostly like, so what do you, yeah, so mostly what's going on.
[00:51:08] Keith: Yeah. Thing.
[00:51:12] Mike: I mean, I don't think about bottoming as a gay guy much, but mostly what's going on is you're participating in this other guy. This other guy's using your body for pleasure. Okay. So that's not the same kind of activity, right?
[00:51:24] Mike: He's using your body for pleasure. So that means that like you you you're you're vulnerable. you know Oh, this is the thing. Women bring this up a lot, but like men just have no idea the vulnerability of having things stuck in your body for someone else's pleasure.
[00:51:36] Mike: It's not, it's both, right? it's that the it's It's that like, even if the thing hurts you as a woman a little bit, the guy's going to keep doing it because he wants, he's trying to get pleasure. And you don't want to interrupt it necessarily either.
[00:51:45] Keith: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[00:51:46] Mike: So it's like this thing where you're very secondary. You're like incidental almost to the situation. This guy iss using you to get. And that can that there's a certain way in which that's hot, but it's ah a very connective way. It's a very like relational way. It's hot in that, like you care about this person. You like that they're using your body for pleasure.
[00:52:04] Mike: Well, that's not going to happen. okay, I know it happens in gay bathhouses, but I just think it's a little harder for it to happen. And to the extent it happens for gay bottoms, it's probably somebody who has a kink. They're like, oh, i but my kink is that I want them to use me and kind of throw me away or something. like that's That's a kink, and I'm sure there women that have that kink too, but it's less common.
[00:52:21] Mike: That would my thought.
[00:52:22] Keith: Yeah.
[00:52:22] Mike: I think most gay bottoms, they need they they prefer there to be relationship there. um
[00:52:27] Keith: Yeah.
[00:52:28] Mike: So.
[00:52:29] Keith: Yeah, okay. um There was something on Reddit that I liked and I think we could use to fill the last eight minutes here, but did you have anything
[00:52:34] Mike: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:37] Mike: Sure.
[00:52:38] Keith: Okay, all right.
[00:52:38] Mike: No, let's talk about that
[00:52:40] Keith: right All right. This person says...
[00:52:46] Keith: ah What else to do with my girlfriend's boobs? ah My girlfriend is 29-year-old female, has mentioned a couple times...
[00:52:52] Mike: it. Wait, did you say boobs or poops?
[00:52:54] Keith: Boobs. No, boobs.
[00:52:55] Mike: Okay, good.
[00:52:56] Keith: With a B. Two Bs.
[00:52:57] Mike: Yeah, I got it. Okay.
[00:52:58] Keith: ah Has mentioned a couple times after sex that she would want me to play with her boobs some more. But I already start with gentle touching, stroking, massages, and kisses, and then usually work my way while having sex to bite and twist her nipples.
[00:53:10] Keith: shake them a good amount when either of us are on top and squeeze them a comfortable amount for her.
[00:53:11] Mike: yeah
[00:53:16] Keith: The only thing I'm thinking of now that I haven't done much is slipping myself in between her boobs and into her mouth.
[00:53:16] Mike: Shake Yeah.
[00:53:22] Keith: I know she probably would like that more, but is there something else i'm missing? Thanks in advance. Okay. This is, I think this person is a non-English speaker.
[00:53:31] Mike: Okay.
[00:53:31] Keith: Uh, I think they're, they're sort of grammar weirdness is because they're not non-English speaker, not because they're an idiot.
[00:53:36] Mike: what are your top
[00:53:36] Keith: Anyway,
[00:53:37] Mike: what What are your top three boob moves? Or is there something else you want to read?
[00:53:40] Keith: So, no, this is it. And, like, i like I really like boobs. um
[00:53:46] Mike: Okay.
[00:53:47] Keith: They're really fun to look at. But I don't have a good idea in my mind like what exactly I'm i'm fantasing fantasizing about. it like I wanted to ask you, like do you have... Okay, I like touching them.
[00:54:00] Keith: I like seeing the way they sort of jiggle. i like sort of pinching nipples. i like sucking on them, like you know putting my mouth on them. But it is sort of ah stupid...
[00:54:11] Keith: think like sometimes if I'm in my head in a sexual encounter know I'll be like interacting with the boobs and like you know I know for her like some women claim they really like nipple play and then you know they do to some extent but it's not erogenous like ah you know groin genitalia play is and so well and so
[00:54:28] Mike: will Wait, wait, wait. That doesn't, I don't agree with that at all, but continue. That does not comport with my apprehension of the world very well. you you think that most You think that most women, but you think that under 50% of women get a lot of pleasure from playing people playing with their nipples?
[00:54:38] Keith: yes it does
[00:54:48] Keith: A lot of pleasure. That's...
[00:54:51] Mike: They're not going to orgasm from it alone.
[00:54:51] Keith: but let let me let me Let me see. Let me try to... Okay, let me let me throw this back at you. How many women do you think are capable of a nipple orgasm?
[00:54:57] Mike: Okay.
[00:55:00] Mike: Not many. No, no, no. That's too far.
[00:55:02] Keith: Okay.
[00:55:02] Mike: That's too far.
[00:55:02] Keith: Well, okay.
[00:55:02] Mike: But but but no.
[00:55:03] Keith: And so so like we're now we're just negotiating on the on the magnitude.
[00:55:06] Mike: No, i've so I have something to say.
[00:55:06] Keith: like i think that breasts are more I think breasts are more erogenous for women than they are for men, but I don't know if it's that much more.
[00:55:08] Mike: Mm-hmm.
[00:55:15] Mike: i think that I think that if a woman, I think that if you if you've got a woman reasonably aroused, a generic woman, or you take a group of 20 women or something to test this, and in one case, ah things are able to happen to their vagina and and clitoris,
[00:55:23] Keith: Yeah.
[00:55:32] Mike: And in the other case, also things can happen to the nipples.
[00:55:32] Keith: Yep.
[00:55:35] Mike: I think that the group with the nipple stuff will get to orgasm substantially faster, substantially faster, like 50% of the time or something.
[00:55:40] Keith: Hmm. Let's see.
[00:55:43] Mike: it will it will so So will it give them orgasm? No. But does it get them there faster? Absolutely. Not always. And particularly, there are some women women women with breast implants, often like there's some decrease in sensitivity. And women with large breasts, I think, can have lower sensitivity. But I mean, look, it's probably just random.
[00:55:58] Mike: There are some women that have lower sensitivity. But in general, I think it...
[00:56:03] Mike: is a substantial aid to
[00:56:03] Keith: Well, implants definitely does a thing. Volume may as well. I'm not sure.
[00:56:08] Mike: Okay, but yeah, so yeah, if your view is if your view is that nipple play is not that interesting to women, this question is hard to answer because the thing I would say is like, there are two things I would say for this question.
[00:56:09] Keith: Although, I guess implants and volume are the same thing, but I meant to those as two different things.
[00:56:19] Mike: One is, one is um yeah, like there are different ways that you can interact with the nipples to stimulate them differently. Like, so I just sort of like hot softer and harder, like different kinds of touch.
[00:56:30] Mike: The other thing I would say that I don't think you might think of if you think of it from the female perspective, like women aren't all that interested in each other's breasts. They don't find them like that. They're certainly not like men, but they do like putting them on display.
[00:56:42] Mike: Right. So I could imagine the guy like kind of getting into her wearing garments and I don't, it wouldn't be for him.
[00:56:43] Keith: Yes.
[00:56:47] Mike: It would be for her. So like, Oh, I want you to like, yeah, there's like 10 different kinds. Like there's a lot of ways to display breasts and he could like sort of encourage or, or kind of like play act that he's super interested in that and have her wear different kinds of garments.
[00:57:01] Mike: for them in bed so they look different. And I think women would like that. If she wants like more attention to them, i think that's because I think that's a main way women think about their breasts. It's like, well, am I making them have cleavage?
[00:57:12] Mike: am i you know like where am i How exactly am I presenting them? Right? And it does give, like, you look, up a woman looks differently. Like, a woman like woman looks different depending on how they're presented. And so it's like, yeah, women like to think about their appearance. And it's like, it's the primary female appearance marker. Like, women don't really consider that. I mean, the lack of a penis is sort of an appearance marker. But really, I guess their butt, too. But, like, they're there's not that much you can do to display her vagina. Like, women aren't going to be into that. But her breasts, for sure. And so, like, women can wear, you know, like, the various sexual garments they wear, right?
[00:57:44] Keith: Right. Okay.
[00:57:49] Mike: There's not that much you can do though. I mean, they're mostly visual. So like, yeah, I would, I would like lean into that, like the nipple play. I mean, but I would lean into the visual part if a woman's like, I want, I want more attention or what, what maybe she thinks her breasts are really attractive and wants that to be center stage.
[00:58:02] Mike: Yeah.
[00:58:02] Keith: Yeah.
[00:58:03] Mike: Putting.
[00:58:03] Keith: My general reading of this is she probably just wants him to be more aggressive.
[00:58:10] Mike: could be.
[00:58:12] Keith: especially because he you know sort of listed the encyclopedia of verbs that you can perform on press. Touching, stroking, massaging, kissing, twisting.
[00:58:21] Mike: Well, I mean, shaking, like doing things to the part of the breast that is not the nipple, I think is not likely to do anything.
[00:58:22] Keith: Oh, yeah, shaking.
[00:58:27] Mike: Yeah, like that's that's a mistake.
[00:58:28] Keith: Shaking was funny.
[00:58:28] Mike: like
[00:58:29] Keith: Yeah, he says shaking.
[00:58:30] Mike: Like if you exclude the nipple, then I'm on your side about the breast not having much sexual content really. I mean, it's, it's yeah, like shaking them or like rubbing the part that's not the nipple, like okay, but it's not going to.
[00:58:42] Keith: Well, okay, so let's let's get to the elephant in the room here. have you i have not. ah Have you ever titty-fucked someone?
[00:58:50] Mike: Sure, of course. You have not?
[00:58:52] Keith: I haven't. How does it work mechanically? and Do you need lube?
[00:58:56] Mike: Um...
[00:58:57] Keith: Or do you wait until people are sweaty enough? or like what what
[00:59:01] Mike: Well, this comes down to the circumcision issue again that we talk about.
[00:59:01] Keith: How is it done? Hmm...
[00:59:04] Mike: Often people can look through our transcripts to find it. But like, so if your foreskin is more mobile, then you wouldn't need lube. Look, first of all, i want to say that basically no women find this this this behavior this this activity that compelling.
[00:59:16] Mike: From my read and discussions and stuff, I think all women are like, yeah, all right, whatever. It's not that compelling. They view breasts very much as just something you display. um
[00:59:24] Keith: yeah
[00:59:24] Mike: It's okay. um The problems with it include the fact that like this idea of like having her it in her mouth, kind of like there's an acrobatic thing that's very difficult to do here, which is like you slide in between them and then it's also going into her mouth with a stroke.
[00:59:38] Keith: Yeah.
[00:59:38] Mike: That's kind of not realistic. So like look, what happens is you just wind up nutting on her neck. Which isn't great.
[00:59:43] Keith: Right.
[00:59:44] Mike: That's almost the worst place to have it because it's going to roll down on the bed or whatever.
[00:59:44] Keith: Right.
[00:59:47] Mike: like it's not it's's It's too complicated of a piece of anatomy to control.
[00:59:47] Keith: Right. right right
[00:59:52] Mike: And um it's okay.
[00:59:52] Keith: right
[00:59:53] Mike: I mean, it look, look here's here's what I would say. Here's what I'll say strongly about it. If you are not having intercourse for some reason, it's a way to do something that sort of feels like you're fucking her.
[01:00:06] Mike: Right. As the guy, it's like, oh, you feel like you're in because, because yeah, I mean the breasts can like the it's soft kind of tissue.
[01:00:08] Keith: Yeah.
[01:00:12] Mike: So it feels, but look, a vagina feels better. like Like it's not clear why you'd really want.
[01:00:15] Keith: Right.
[01:00:17] Mike: And I don't think any women want it. Um, but yeah, I'm surprised you haven't done that.
[01:00:21] Keith: do you have Do you have some insight on why it's...
[01:00:22] Mike: No.
[01:00:27] Keith: I guess on why it's not... I would expect blowjobs and titty-fucking to both not be that interesting for women.
[01:00:39] Keith: But one seems to be really common... enjoyed, ah even even begged for by women. And one is a really quite unusual sex act, at least i mean at least in my experience.
[01:00:55] Keith: My experience isn't crazy, right? like I don't know what like the ratio of blowjobs to tittyfucking is, but I would expect it to be quite high.
[01:01:04] Mike: ah Yeah, I agree with you. It's not like, look, it's a thing that guys would fetishize because guys like breasts. So you try it and it's okay, but it's not like, look, i think I think it's largely kind of an outer course thing.
[01:01:07] Keith: Yeah, of course, of course, of course, of course.
[01:01:14] Mike: So it's like once you are able to penetrate her vagina, you'd be like, yeah, that's better, superior in every aspect.
[01:01:20] Keith: No, but why don't women offer titty fucking as often as they do blowjobs?
[01:01:20] Mike: So why would I continue doing this?
[01:01:25] Mike: oh because Oh, because it's totally not intimate for them. Like having it in their mouth, like they're participating more. Like this is just, this is, you know what? This is like hot dogging their butt cheeks.
[01:01:36] Mike: It's just, there's just no sexual content for them at all.
[01:01:37] Keith: Right.
[01:01:39] Mike: And so it's just totally uncompelling. And sort of uncomfortable and weird.
[01:01:41] Keith: Okay.
[01:01:42] Mike: It's just, yeah, they would rather, they'd rather be more intimately involved in the act typically than this.
[01:01:43] Keith: Yes, messy.
[01:01:48] Mike: This is just feels, it feels like you're using her like a real doll. It's too much.
[01:01:51] Keith: a so A certain amount of boob volume is needed as well. like You probably need to have at least at least Cs for it to work reasonably well.
[01:01:55] Mike: That's true.
[01:01:58] Mike: That's true. That's true.
[01:02:00] Keith: like Already that eliminates 80% of women or something.
[01:02:00] Mike: Yeah.
[01:02:03] Mike: It does.
[01:02:03] Keith: um Anyway, I know you had a hard stop, so i'm I'm going to let you go here.
[01:02:05] Mike: Yep.
[01:02:06] Keith: ah That'll do it for this episode of Your Mileage May Vary. You can send us feedback or questions to ymmvpod at gmail.com. That's ymmvpod at gmail.com. We pay $10 for any and all feedback, so just let us know how you want us to pay you.
[01:02:18] Keith: Thanks for listening, and we will catch you next week on Your Mileage May Vary.

YMMVYour Mileage May Vary

Episode 204: Honesty vs Tact, Dating Profile Science, IQ as Currency, Boob Tactics, Sugar Baby Economics

Episode Transcript