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Episode 34: Real Female Orgasms, Loudness In Bed, Penis Sleeves, Sex Toys, Squirting, Sex Grievances

Team YMMV | 4-14-2021 | 1:08:35

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Keith and Mike discuss in pretty good detail the story so far regarding female orgasms. Are all self-reported orgasms real? Does the female experience really differ that much from what men experience?

How much dirty talk is reasonable versus just a performance by one person or the other? Should guys really get penis sleeves even though that could cause ... size issues with their natural penis size? Same question for toys of other kinds.

Also, the guys talk about a list of sex complaints written out by a more experienced woman regarding her less experienced lover.

To follow along with the video discussed at the beginning of the episode:

https://ymmv.me/34/squirting

We get a lot of our questions from the Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/34/loud-in-bed

https://ymmv.me/34/penis-sleeve

https://ymmv.me/34/large-toy

https://ymmv.me/34/sex-grievances

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

  • [0:02] Mike: I would think women would be more skeptical than men, not less.
  • [0:12] Keith: Yeah, I mean I don't think they're lying about so we get to the extent that they are confused, I don't think they're lying about it. Like they actually think
  • [0:13] Keith: that
  • [0:23] Keith: these things that you would describe as non orgasms are orgasms.
  • [0:30] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships. I'm keith, my co host is mike, greetings, mike
  • [0:31] Keith: Hello there.
  • [0:44] Keith: So we haven't done an episode without a guest for a month or maybe a bit more. So we have a pile of topics from the sex subreddit to talk about, but before we get to that, I think we need to discuss the female orgasm
  • [0:46] Keith: um just
  • [0:55] Keith: based on some offline conversations between us and uh as a result of recent conversations with guests, I think we need to
  • [1:06] Keith: wrestle this to the mat and so to steer us in that direction, I have a porn video that a listener shared with us that I think will give us a decent place from which to start that conversation. Are you are you ready?
  • [1:07] Keith: Go ahead.
  • [1:15] Mike: So I know I know enough about this video. I haven't watched it in its entirety, but I know enough to be able to comfortably say
  • [1:19] Mike: listeners that this is not a typical female orgasm. It's a
  • [1:33] Mike: but perhaps it's one that's instructive in that it's a typical and maybe will animate some discussion, but nobody should think that this is a typical experience that a woman would have or maybe could ever have in their life. Right? I mean, this is an unusual situation.
  • [1:35] Mike: Okay, I think, but it mildly.
  • [1:40] Keith: Yeah, I think just so our listeners have the same context that we do. I'm going to read what
  • [1:45] Keith: the listener who shared this said. So she said
  • [1:53] Keith: I had to check out chatter bait. I found this girl Talia, she literally masturbated for five hours straight with squirt. By the end. She says she usually only does three hours.
  • [1:56] Keith: I tuned in on and off for half of the show.
  • [2:02] Keith: When I did watch, she had countless orgasm. She would shake orgasm, spasm hard, then squirt, then immediately vibing again.
  • [2:19] Keith: I think she means using a vibrator, No real breaks unless adding a toy. It was fantastic, incredible. Unbelievable. The constant orgasm ng is a thing. I'm not totally into all the insertions, but I get it. I think she's talking about all the various things that are inserted into this person in this video.
  • [2:26] Keith: And then she sent an example clip from uh Talia's twitter and yeah, so we'll put this clip
  • [2:29] Keith: in the show notes and
  • [2:34] Keith: I guess you want me to narrate this one Mike.
  • [2:42] Mike: I think so. I mean it's, it came via listener feedback sent I think to you. Uh And um
  • [2:48] Mike: I mean we should note, I mean there is some room for skepticism immediately just from the description you read. I mean,
  • [2:52] Mike: so whatever you think squirting is it's
  • [2:54] Mike: I think the consensus is it's just urine. Okay,
  • [2:57] Mike: well two P.
  • [3:02] Mike: Okay nobody's going to say this person pete continuously for five hours because that's
  • [3:06] Mike: every middle schooler knows that's impossible. But uh even
  • [3:08] Mike: occasionally
  • [3:18] Mike: for five hours, like there's an issue there, right? I mean where is the fluid coming from? There's just these basic like physics problems that arise. But okay, we can suspend disbelief for a minute. Yeah.
  • [3:20] Keith: I'm not sure. I've seen a video where someone
  • [3:30] Keith: squirts. I mean I've been impressed with the volume of squirting in various things I have seen but I haven't seen something where it's like
  • [3:35] Keith: yeah I even watched something long enough to see if
  • [3:52] Keith: I don't even know what I'm saying. Like obviously there's some limited supply of fluid that can be inside of the body. So yeah, you can't squirt in the way that, you know, people seem to aggressively forever. So All right, I'm going to narrate this. I've never done this before, so I'm not quite sure
  • [3:53] Keith: ah
  • [4:03] Keith: How to do this. So, I'm gonna and I think we need the sound for this, but our listeners won't have that, but I think it'll be instructive for for us while watching. So all right, I'm going to start this in three
  • [4:04] Keith: to
  • [4:05] Mike: let me know when to
  • [4:09] Keith: Start. Okay, 3, 2, 1 start.
  • [4:18] Keith: Okay, so we have a woman in her bedroom. She is writing an anal dildo and her vagina is facing us. She has
  • [4:28] Keith: one of these love sense toys in her vagina. That's the thing that are Campbell told us. You can set to vibrate. She's moaning. Oh my God. Oh my God,
  • [4:32] Keith: She seems to be building toward something here.
  • [4:35] Keith: The grunting is getting more and more intense
  • [4:36] Mike: tippy toes.
  • [4:44] Keith: She is, yeah, she's now gotten a wireless vibrator that she is holding on to her vagina
  • [4:48] Keith: and she is apparently orgasm ng
  • [4:50] Keith: um
  • [4:58] Keith: she's the moaning has stopped. She seems to be some sort of physical contortion here.
  • [5:01] Keith: Uh and I think this is going to switch to
  • [5:04] Keith: a second orgasm in a moment. Here
  • [5:07] Keith: We're now one minute into it.
  • [5:12] Keith: Okay, here we are in the phase to the video cut. She's now.
  • [5:14] Mike: Oh come on,
  • [5:21] Keith: squirting a lot. A lot. There are contractions. We can see her her anus
  • [5:25] Keith: opening quite a lot and closing during these collapsing.
  • [5:32] Keith: Okay, that's the word. And I mean, look at the volume of fluid here mike
  • [5:35] Keith: somewhat.
  • [5:41] Keith: I don't know, impressive. Okay, It finally mercifully is over.
  • [5:42] Keith: Uh huh.
  • [5:46] Keith: Not the most attractive thing to watch, in my opinion.
  • [5:47] Mike: No, that was a little
  • [5:51] Keith: tough. Um
  • [5:53] Keith: Okay,
  • [5:59] Keith: do you believe the second thing is an orgasm?
  • [6:03] Mike: No, I don't think any of its real. I think that it's uh
  • [6:05] Mike: yeah, I mean there's just not like
  • [6:14] Mike: she uh was zoomed in on her anus most of the time looking for sort of the telltale orgasmic contractions not seeing any.
  • [6:16] Mike: Um and
  • [6:22] Mike: um it just had like sort of the hallmarks of something that staged. I mean, the way she was holding her body was a little weird. I mean,
  • [6:23] Mike: women don't
  • [6:27] Mike: want to have that many different things jammed in their bodies at the same time.
  • [6:32] Mike: I dont essentially think any woman wants to basically prolapse uranus like that.
  • [6:36] Mike: It's not like sexual, it's not arousing. Um
  • [6:40] Mike: Yeah, like I don't, this is clearly a piece of performance art from my perspective. Could
  • [6:43] Keith: you performative, lee do that with your anus?
  • [6:46] Keith: I'm certain I cannot.
  • [6:51] Mike: I think no, I think it would require, okay, if you said mike,
  • [7:13] Mike: I'll give you $10 million and you have 12 hours and at the end of 12 hours you need to do that with uranus. I probably could do it like it would involve like progressively inserting larger and larger things with lots of like lubrication and like figuring out how to bear down properly to get it to kind of turn inside out like that. But uh
  • [7:15] Mike: that's not a thing. I mean,
  • [7:20] Mike: have you ever had sex with a woman or anything remotely like that happened to her anus while she was orgasm? Me.
  • [7:21] Keith: No,
  • [7:23] Keith: no, I mean it's
  • [7:30] Keith: it is, it is exactly timed with. So while she's squirting, it's it's it's pulsing right? So she she squirts for
  • [7:32] Keith: a second and then
  • [7:37] Keith: appears to like re gather herself for two or three seconds and then squirts again for a second.
  • [7:40] Keith: And with that come to be the anal contractions.
  • [7:41] Keith: Uh I don't
  • [7:45] Mike: think I don't think there were any anal contractions but. Okay.
  • [7:46] Keith: Sorry. The anal
  • [7:48] Keith: activity
  • [7:56] Keith: something. Yeah. Prolapse ng I don't think I could pee like this either. Like, I don't know
  • [8:01] Keith: what the muscle is that like, you know, starts the stream and stops the stream.
  • [8:03] Keith: But
  • [8:06] Keith: she's peeing with like some velocity
  • [8:18] Keith: uh for like a second and then she stops and then again and again and again. Do you think you could do that with your urine stream?
  • [8:27] Mike: I think I could um I have done that before with my urine stream. It is possible. Um So that doesn't totally surprise me as sort of a party trick. I also think that, like,
  • [8:33] Mike: that's a situation where, like, male and female anatomy is like, meaningfully different, right? Because the urine
  • [8:46] Mike: has a lot more plumbing to flow through for a man. So, like, for a woman, like, and actually, one of things I noticed if as a guy, if I sort of stopped my pee, like a lot of times, like, it's uncomfortable, but in a spot that a woman doesn't have in her body, like, it's sort of
  • [9:04] Mike: there's various because the same muscle is used to orgasm as to stop the flow of P. Right? So, so like when you as a man, when you stop the flow of P. It doesn't just contract right around the valve or whatever to stop the P. Like, there's other muscles are contracting, can be a little uncomfortable because there's there's pee in there I think
  • [9:13] Mike: or something, I'm not sure why it's uncomfortable, but it can be, but I don't think that would be uncomfortable for a woman. One thing with this video is like, I'm not even sure that's p in the sense that like,
  • [9:29] Mike: I'm not totally certain that she's not just like squirting fluid in her vagina somehow, or having like a tube there. I mean, there's like at this point, like it's so wild that you ask yourself, like, could this be just totally like a circus act,
  • [9:38] Keith: wow, that is that is quite the accusation. Yeah, it does appear to be coming out of the area where the Urethra is. I
  • [9:42] Mike: mean, I don't think that's an accusation. Look,
  • [9:45] Mike: the null hypothesis here ought to be,
  • [9:50] Mike: it's crazy. Okay. If if if you spent your whole life watching Men Run
  • [9:58] Mike: yeah, on the beach, you'd only been among men. You're in some sort of weird uh spartan existence where it's just men.
  • [10:14] Mike: And I asked you, keith, you are now, you you know, you have now achieved adulthood. You're going to see a woman. And I asked you, how do you think a woman likely runs? You would say, well, probably sort of like a man like you would. The null hypothesis would be that like things are around the same, generous, okay,
  • [10:32] Mike: I think that it is absolutely reasonable to make it incumbent upon the people claiming this is normal, or this is normal is the wrong word, This is an orgasm. This is a reasonable, like this is how it is for women. I think it's on them to argue that because it's so totally different from the experience that you ever see of a man.
  • [10:35] Mike: They're like, I don't think, I think they're making the accusation to say
  • [10:50] Mike: that this is, hey, look, this is just her sexuality. Like it's, it's like, come on, like the null hypothesis here has to be that this is some weird performance art. I mean, she's on a website making money doing it. Uh has incentives, people crazy stuff.
  • [10:53] Keith: She certainly has incentive to fake
  • [11:00] Keith: uh in this way because there's, there's a demand for this kind of content.
  • [11:03] Mike: Yeah. So it's a little frustrating to have to like
  • [11:12] Mike: argue against people taking an extreme position and then calling themselves like saying them saying, oh well this is, you know, the normal thing here is just assume she's telling the truth is like, look,
  • [11:14] Mike: if I told you that I
  • [11:18] Mike: could fly off my balcony and just fly around for five minutes and back. Like
  • [11:23] Mike: you shouldn't assume I'm telling the truth. Like it's obviously so here, so there are two issues and they both involve
  • [11:27] Mike: vessels of undetermined size. The first one is
  • [11:30] Mike: the peeing the squirting.
  • [11:34] Mike: Yeah. This issue of like where is all the water, where's all the fluid coming from? So
  • [11:39] Mike: you know that's a lot of fluid. Like it just strikes me that there's some game being played there. And then the second one with this
  • [11:46] Mike: orgasm ng for five hours thing is where are all those hormones stored in the body that make you have
  • [11:51] Mike: the pleasure feeling of a of an orgasm? Like so the notion has to be that women have these
  • [12:08] Mike: Stores and stores of these hormones that can be pumped into their brain constantly have orgasms. And men just don't have that. Men just have enough for 1-3 a day. That's not that's not plausible unless you identify some structure in the body. That's like some big sack of hormone that just women is massive. Okay well just not
  • [12:10] Keith: plausible. I think
  • [12:11] Keith: I think this person is actually
  • [12:13] Keith: squirting
  • [12:20] Keith: uh to the extent that she's just peeing or experiencing some sort of sexual pleasure.
  • [12:22] Keith: I don't have it super strong.
  • [12:26] Mike: When you say squirting, when you say that, you're just saying you don't think she's got like some hoes can see,
  • [12:31] Keith: I don't think there's some prosthesis here or there is some sort of Yeah. Yeah. Um
  • [12:38] Keith: uh Part one of the video, I'm not sure if she's having an orgasm or not. We can't really see.
  • [12:49] Mike: Um I'm sure she's not because you can see her anus stretched around the dildo that she's riding and I actually started, her listeners can do that.
  • [12:50] Keith: I feel like that's
  • [12:54] Mike: sort of true. You can only see,
  • [13:05] Mike: yeah you can only see one part of the anal ring there, but there were just no contractions whatsoever. Right? It's like the last episode there was the woman who oddly
  • [13:09] Mike: uh yeah. The reason I brought the porn on people can go back and watch it
  • [13:15] Mike: From episode 32, 33 33 34 33. My bed.
  • [13:24] Mike: Yeah, they can go watch that. But the woman, the contractions preceded the contractions of her anus and I do believe she had an orgasm but they proceeded
  • [13:25] Mike: her moaning
  • [13:37] Mike: and it's like look that's just I'm sorry, that's just not. No hypothesis has to be that the pleasurable sensations precede the contractions. And the reason I think that is because literally every man on the planet has that experience. So it's like
  • [13:49] Mike: there has to be some your burden of proof is higher to argue that like, no, no women have contractions first. It's like, huh? And also like there's a lot of women who self report the contractions coming after the peak of pleasure anyway.
  • [13:54] Keith: So I want to be careful not to conflate two things here. But okay. So
  • [14:05] Keith: this woman you're convinced is performing and I think I agree with you on that. I mean, she's obviously performing. The question is whether her
  • [14:16] Keith: Orgasm on screen is real or not. And I don't, I don't, I don't have a strong opinion on that. I think you would say there's a 10 chance. It's real. I would say it's like a 30 chance, whatever.
  • [14:29] Mike: I don't think it's zero. I think it's zero present like that. Like some things I'll give it like some chance. Like this is just come on. This is just, it's too, the thing she's doing is too complicated. I mean, she's on her tippy toes sitting on this dildo. Like it's yeah, it's just not, it's not
  • [14:34] Keith: all right, but okay. The thing I don't want to conflate this with is
  • [14:39] Keith: so I thought it was interesting that the person who wrote this in is certain
  • [14:42] Keith: that these are real.
  • [14:46] Keith: Uh let me let me find her exact words here.
  • [14:48] Keith: Uh
  • [14:51] Keith: yeah, she said it was fantastic, incredible and believable.
  • [14:55] Keith: The constant orgasm ng is a thing, blah, blah, blah.
  • [15:04] Keith: Um So, so this person who wrote in is convinced and our conversations with, with Emma last week were
  • [15:06] Keith: mhm
  • [15:12] Keith: I think based on some of our conversations after we recorded that episode,
  • [15:13] Keith: I
  • [15:21] Keith: I think you think, I don't want to put words in your mouth here, but I'll say it and then you can respond. I think you think that a lot of women are confused about
  • [15:26] Keith: what their own orgasms may or may not be
  • [15:31] Mike: sure. I mean it's not, I mean I don't think that's like an I think thing, I mean I think that that's a
  • [15:36] Mike: yeah, that you see that like any almost any source you search for, you'll find that
  • [15:43] Mike: there's a substantial percentage of women who have never had an orgasm. There's a substantial percentage who have confusion about what one is
  • [15:50] Mike: how to have one. It's a topic that's brought up frequently in the sex. Read it, and it makes sense also because there isn't
  • [16:00] Mike: the physical urgency that men feel uh if they haven't had one for a week or whatever, or maybe for keith, it's more it's in the hours, certainly.
  • [16:01] Mike: Um
  • [16:11] Mike: But that that's somewhat normal there guys who do it three times a day um and also there isn't like the physically obvious physical manifestation of ejaculating, that makes it clear like what is and what isn't one? And so like
  • [16:14] Mike: if you think about it for a boy,
  • [16:16] Mike: for a man when he's younger,
  • [16:17] Mike: um
  • [16:32] Mike: there's this situation where you're trying to figure out how to beat off, like, what am I supposed to do here? What am I gonna do with this thing? And like, there's a there's a point where you figure it out and you know, you figured it out because something comes out, like there's this thing that happens, it's different for women, it's not as obvious,
  • [16:35] Mike: and it doesn't surprise me that
  • [16:37] Mike: that could lead to confusion
  • [16:42] Mike: between just intense arousal and an actual orgasm for women.
  • [16:45] Keith: Okay. Yes. But
  • [16:50] Keith: Emma was certain that she was able to recognize what is and isn't,
  • [16:56] Keith: and we have that listener with the voice memo that was like, you know, I know, mike's going to say, I don't know, but I do.
  • [17:02] Keith: So I I agree there are some women that admit confusion on this topic, but there's a lot of women who
  • [17:04] Keith: are certain
  • [17:06] Keith: that
  • [17:16] Keith: yeah, they are able to discern what would are and aren't orgasms. And I think you're making the argument that they actually don't know.
  • [17:24] Mike: I think that I I think that in many cases they do know uh in the sense that like for instance, Emma last week, she
  • [17:29] Mike: had had, what I was persuaded was an orgasm with a vibrator. And it sounded
  • [17:32] Mike: it sounded like what, for example,
  • [17:35] Mike: we've had previous guests
  • [17:38] Mike: say, you know, kind of like the
  • [17:39] Mike: build up,
  • [17:44] Mike: kind of the climax contractions and then afterward you're too sensitive to touch. And like
  • [17:46] Mike: she mentioned that like the
  • [17:56] Mike: subjective feeling of it was a lot stronger than the other thing she's calling an orgasm. So like, I'm convinced that she does know what one is, but I think that like there's this
  • [18:01] Mike: sort of a spectrum that they create, that's a little bit of a false thing because it's basically like
  • [18:03] Mike: your
  • [18:11] Mike: you're conflating kind of strong arousal with having had an orgasm and I think that's enabled by the fact that like
  • [18:23] Mike: it can be, it's not as obvious and also is not as obvious for a woman as it is for a man. And also for a woman, there isn't sort of the negative side effect that there is for a man, if a man doesn't have an orgasm, like he gets blue balls or whatever, he's uncomfortable. It can happen for a woman by the way,
  • [18:25] Mike: to have blue walls as they call it.
  • [18:27] Mike: Um
  • [18:28] Mike: But
  • [18:29] Mike: uh
  • [18:39] Mike: okay. I mean like the typical response is I mean for example, our guest Ali has had like has like the typical response that I would say is that sounds a lot more like a male or there's one other thing I want to say, which is that
  • [18:41] Mike: I think that
  • [18:43] Mike: it's I think
  • [18:49] Mike: at the risk of mansplaining for sure I'm explaining here, but I think that it actually does women and disservice to
  • [18:59] Mike: not be kind of clear about what an orgasm is and isn't because then I think that's what leads down the path toward women faking orgasms.
  • [19:08] Mike: Men assuming women have had them when they haven't women getting frustrated, like having all these kind of negative experiences. I think like it creates the environment where
  • [19:22] Mike: uh women's needs don't need to be met because it's not clear what their needs are. So I actually think it sort of does a disservice, it would be better to say, look this is an orgasm and this other thing is pleasurable and intensely arousing, but it just isn't one. Yeah, but I think that's like a better way to think about things.
  • [19:24] Keith: Okay, so
  • [19:27] Keith: two things here, the first is okay, so
  • [19:34] Keith: it seems like you're describing women have things that are orgasms that
  • [19:36] Keith: everyone would agree as an orgasm,
  • [19:39] Keith: and then there are things that they think are orgasms.
  • [19:47] Keith: Uh but there would be some disagreement about whether, like, there would be like a like a like a medical doctor would disagree
  • [19:50] Keith: on whether an orgasm was had. Okay, so,
  • [19:57] Keith: but I don't think they're lying about that disagreement, they just there's some sort of like uh to the extent
  • [20:02] Keith: anything is going on here, I think they're just sort of confused.
  • [20:12] Mike: Yeah, I mean, this is like, at some level you get to the at some level, the discussion just falls down as many kind of these debates due to like, a linguistic difference, right? It's just like,
  • [20:14] Mike: I'm calling this an orgasm
  • [20:24] Mike: and you're calling it not an orgasm. And it's like, there's no that that was like with, with Emma, I think I said like your response could just be to tell me to fuck off. And that's basically, she was like, yes, that's the response I want to give. Like, in the sense that, like,
  • [20:33] Mike: she can define the word orgasm however she wants. And the only thing I would say back to that is the thing I said about it does a disservice, because once you redefine the word orgasm,
  • [20:51] Mike: I mean, it's a little, it's kind of gets harder to tell a man, hey, you got, you know, it's important to give your woman an orgasm because like, you just redefined the word to mean nothing, right? Or to be totally to be totally unclear what it means and it's like, okay, well, so now now what are you actually asking for him to do? Like, do you need to yet another word to describe it?
  • [20:53] Mike: Um
  • [20:59] Mike: Yeah, and so and so yeah, the word, the terminology doesn't sort of matter as much as to say. Like
  • [21:13] Mike: there is this thing that happens that involved that that is very similar to what happens to a man. And then there are other things that happened that aren't. And like I do think it's useful linguistically to be able to distinguish between the two. And I also think that like
  • [21:17] Mike: it's useful when you're watching something like a porn to be able to be like, look,
  • [21:32] Mike: is this happening or not? And it's sort of obvious if it is or isn't to me. And I do I think it's odd that women can watch it and be confused by that when I just don't think it's confusing it on, for example, you had juniper cam girl on and I mean we could have other if there was if there is a camgirl
  • [21:37] Mike: another cam girl, we have a number of cam girls, I think they listen to the show if there is one who
  • [21:41] Mike: has this sort of sexual response and wants to come on and and
  • [21:52] Mike: say no, no, no, I'm the one cam girl that like really gets off on doing my shows, then that's great to be interesting to talk to her. But junipers experience was that doing a show is totally non a non sexual experience.
  • [21:55] Mike: And so that is my null hypothesis for what's going on
  • [22:00] Mike: in the clip we watched is that like, she's just she's just doing like a weird
  • [22:10] Mike: kind of, I don't wanna say freak show, it's too strong, but like a kind of a circus party trick where she's got her heinous prolapse and she's got all these things jammed up inside her. But actually she's sitting there thinking about like,
  • [22:25] Mike: you know, the score of the Yankees game or something, like she just doesn't care, right? And that's that's what I think is going on, like it's sort of lame and as a man, you want her to be into it. But I think like the truth is that women just don't care that much about sex in a lot of ways. They care much more about other things. Yeah, I mean
  • [22:28] Keith: we're good violating several things here. But yeah, I mean, look,
  • [22:32] Keith: there are definitely faked orgasms on camera that are performative, right?
  • [22:39] Keith: But that's different than a woman being confused about whether she's having an orgasm or not
  • [22:40] Keith: and that's
  • [22:41] Keith: different. But
  • [22:46] Mike: it's but it's relevant to the person who wrote in and said that she was persuaded this,
  • [22:53] Mike: oh, she's on camera was having real orgasms because it's to me it's so strange that she doesn't have, she's she's not perceptive enough.
  • [22:57] Mike: I mean she's a woman, like I'm a man. So for me,
  • [22:58] Mike: like,
  • [23:01] Mike: I think men are often fooled by this stuff. I should be fooled.
  • [23:06] Mike: Why am I not? I'm not fooled because I'm some sort of some sort of super genius, which is fine.
  • [23:11] Keith: There would be no appetite. There would be no appetite for such content if some people weren't fooled.
  • [23:20] Mike: Yeah, Well, and people wouldn't want to listen to our, to our podcast if I didn't have this level of genius to not be fooled. It's important someone not be fooled.
  • [23:31] Mike: But women, I am actually, the thing that's the most surprising to me here is that a woman would write in and be fooled because it's like you're a woman, like you're supposed to have the insight here. Like
  • [23:33] Mike: I would think women would be more skeptical than men,
  • [23:34] Mike: not less.
  • [23:35] Mike: Yeah,
  • [23:43] Keith: I don't think they're lying about so, again, to the extent that they are confused, I don't think they're lying about it. Like they actually think
  • [23:45] Keith: that
  • [23:49] Keith: these things that you would describe as non orgasms are orgasms
  • [23:50] Keith: and
  • [23:54] Keith: you know, dot, dot, dot, right? Like they're not,
  • [23:55] Mike: they're not
  • [23:57] Mike: particularly the only thing I can do.
  • [24:01] Mike: The only thing I can do to psychoanalyze that is to think, well,
  • [24:07] Mike: I mean you okay, but someone like Ali who people can, which has been on the show a couple times, people could listen back
  • [24:20] Mike: ali in my mind, this film is very confident about her orgasms city or orgasmic nous about her own orgasms and so she doesn't seem like someone would be fooled about this. And so psychoanalyzing here, it seems to me like
  • [24:36] Mike: women who are confused about their own sexuality have difficulty discerning what's going on with themselves might be more likely to be fooled. And so in some ways I view it that way, it's like the more confident, maybe the older woman is the more sexual experience she has, the more she's used a vibrator.
  • [24:37] Mike: Um
  • [24:48] Mike: yeah, the less she is going to sort of be fooled. On the flip side of that though, there's also this tendency to want to let other people's truths be their truths, the kind of
  • [24:59] Mike: uh postmodern way of living, where it's like hey you know if if keith says it's like this for him then I'm going to take him at his word and maybe they're just disinclined to critique other people.
  • [25:04] Keith: Yeah, I mean if they believe it's an orgasm, yeah. What's
  • [25:07] Keith: what even is an orgasm? All right.
  • [25:14] Mike: This is sure, sure. It's like I believe I have appendicitis and I've had COVID 1925 times. Like does anything mean anything at that point?
  • [25:15] Keith: Right? Anyway.
  • [25:27] Keith: Yeah, I mean we're gonna man, we're gonna get some emails about this, but um sure, okay let's let's move on, let's start tackling some of these sex subreddit things. So
  • [25:28] Keith: um
  • [25:36] Keith: this first one is this guy complains about his girlfriend being really loud in bed and saying things I don't want the neighbors to hear.
  • [25:41] Keith: He writes, I get really uncomfortable when she screams and yells things like ah fuck my pussy or oh I'm coming.
  • [25:48] Keith: I personally love it, but not what I know the neighbors can hear. I live in an apartment. I'm also embarrassed when I see my neighbors.
  • [25:54] Keith: It will be awkward and I feel really uncomfortable knowing they're basically in a way participating in our sex even though they don't want to be
  • [26:04] Keith: when I talk to my girl about it, she totally brushes brushes it off and says shit like who cares? Or they wish they had sex like we do. I'm not sure how much of an issue to make out of it. Anybody else have this issue?
  • [26:05] Keith: Ah
  • [26:08] Keith: yes, I have had this issue.
  • [26:09] Keith: Uh
  • [26:18] Mike: Yeah. You that was Yeah, you you recently had that. Of course, I'm triggered by the question because one of the things that the woman yells is I'm coming.
  • [26:20] Mike: So she's announcing, which I
  • [26:28] Mike: always find a little skeptical of. But why don't you tell us your experience in this domain keith? What what what problems have you had in this area? So I
  • [26:35] Keith: mean I've run into this with a few different partners, but the most recent one. Uh
  • [26:39] Keith: Yeah, I mean she was so loud and
  • [26:42] Keith: it was sort of
  • [26:47] Keith: submissive, right? So she kept calling me daddy loudly.
  • [26:57] Keith: Um And yeah, shouting this stuff like, you know, fuck my pussy. And it was it was so loud that like
  • [27:02] Mike: uh could you give like an idea of how loud it, like, is it as loud as a
  • [27:11] Mike: dogma? Really get to know, like is it as loud as you would yell, taxi in like 19 seventies movie instead of new york? Like how loud is the fuck my pussy.
  • [27:18] Keith: Um So I live in a six unit building. Um But I'm also, but you know, right next to another building,
  • [27:22] Keith: I'm confident that anybody within
  • [27:23] Keith: two floors
  • [27:26] Keith: and that definitely the next door neighbors could hear this.
  • [27:27] Keith: Um
  • [27:35] Keith: I used to have neighbors there were quite loud at having sex. And so I know, and I, and I remember what that volume was and this was louder than that, so,
  • [27:36] Mike: so it's like a shout
  • [27:38] Keith: basically. Yeah.
  • [27:44] Mike: Um and what, and this was her dirty, her dirty talk. Was it actually exactly, Fuck my pussy.
  • [27:46] Keith: I don't remember.
  • [28:01] Keith: It's too bad. That was, yeah, I know. I wish I had better recollection here, but I do remember I didn't want to uh she spent the night and I didn't want to have sex in the morning because
  • [28:06] Keith: yeah, I was embarrassed. Like I knew that she was going to be loud and I didn't know,
  • [28:10] Keith: I don't know what the right way to tell someone
  • [28:20] Keith: that they're being too loud. Some people in the comments of this post talked about, you know, you can put your hand over their mouth and you know, some women like that, but I didn't.
  • [28:27] Mike: Maybe they could like, you know, they have those noise canceling headphones, you can get some kind of a noise cancelling like a cone of silence,
  • [28:28] Mike: but around like a,
  • [28:32] Keith: like some soundproofing in my bedroom
  • [28:33] Mike: and I could work.
  • [28:50] Mike: Um I mean, did you say you had never you never had a conversation with this woman about or any I mean this isn't the only time you've experienced this either. I have never actually experienced this. Someone like shouting like that, I don't think. But uh you never had a conversation where it's like, hey why why do you do that? Like what's going on?
  • [28:59] Keith: Yeah. The only other time that it was so loud that I was embarrassed uh future subsequent hookups were at her place.
  • [29:01] Keith: So
  • [29:06] Keith: whatever. I assume, I assume her neighbours have gotten used to it.
  • [29:13] Mike: Yeah, I did. I do remember a living across the hall from a lovely young lady in college who had a
  • [29:16] Mike: boyfriend who was on the football team and his name was Pate.
  • [29:21] Mike: And so I heard fuck me paint a lot. I was impressive. I was sort of jealous of Pate
  • [29:23] Keith: actually paid. Yeah, it's just going to say,
  • [29:25] Mike: yeah, for sure.
  • [29:27] Mike: Yeah, there was not Peyton manning.
  • [29:32] Keith: There must be some there must be some way to
  • [29:33] Keith: uh
  • [29:35] Keith: politely do this. But
  • [29:43] Keith: yeah, I mean, I couldn't tell how much of what she was doing was a performance and how much of it was. That's the way that she enjoys,
  • [29:47] Keith: you know, having sex. I'm not I'm not sure.
  • [29:51] Keith: I mean like you spend enough time with her to get to know that.
  • [29:58] Mike: Yeah. So much of my like uh yeah, this gets back to the previous topic, right? It's like, it's like I think that in a lot of cases women need to like sort of concentrate
  • [30:02] Mike: to drive pleasure. And so it's like when there
  • [30:05] Mike: when they're, if you're just groaning, that's a little different,
  • [30:07] Mike: right? Because then it's like
  • [30:10] Mike: that then that's that could just be,
  • [30:18] Mike: you know, kind of involuntary like oh you know, enjoying this, but once you start making kind of complex sentences, put it this way, the more complex the sentence she makes,
  • [30:28] Mike: the harder it is to believe that like it's not just a performance, right? Like so fuck my pussy is like kind of medium. If she started saying something actually pretty sophisticated,
  • [30:31] Mike: I'm not even sure what it would be like, like what
  • [30:44] Mike: I'm just yelling out like the headlines in the new york times and she read and she's like, you know, I'm just so tired of biden's policy about Medicare or something, you're just like, you know, she wasn't into it and so somehow this is somewhere in between for me where it's like
  • [30:46] Mike: you're
  • [30:54] Mike: yeah, like she's moving in the direction of it, being hard to believe that she's really engaged or interested in what's going on, that she's just putting on a performance. Let me ask you this keith,
  • [30:59] Mike: did her shouting bring you closer to nutting?
  • [31:02] Mike: Did it work?
  • [31:04] Mike: It's complicated.
  • [31:10] Keith: Yeah, there were two things counterbalancing each other, right? Like it is kind of hot to have someone
  • [31:11] Keith: so
  • [31:12] Keith: audibly
  • [31:14] Keith: enthusiastic,
  • [31:18] Keith: but I really don't like
  • [31:20] Keith: making other people uncomfortable
  • [31:29] Keith: and so I'm sort of like empathetically concerned for my neighbors while also enjoying the sort of
  • [31:33] Keith: uh okay, let's say you're getting about my performance, uh
  • [31:40] Mike: let's say you're in a cabin a mile from any other houses, then it would, it would improve your experience. Yeah,
  • [31:43] Keith: I think it might eventually get going.
  • [31:47] Keith: Yeah. Okay. But initially it's, it's pretty great
  • [31:49] Mike: to me. Like, I think that like,
  • [31:54] Mike: because this was a woman, it's safe to say that you didn't know that well. Right?
  • [31:56] Keith: Yeah. It's safe to say that. Yeah.
  • [32:02] Mike: Okay, so I think that would be a little strange because it's like, I think I'd be thinking in my head, like,
  • [32:03] Mike: like
  • [32:14] Mike: I'd be like, look lady, if you close your eyes, you wouldn't actually be able to picture me. So when she yells that, like, who is she actually yelling at at? Like she's yelling at, it may be the last guy she dated or like
  • [32:18] Mike: just some imaginary do. The whole thing is just a little odd for me. I think it would be
  • [32:20] Mike: yeah, difficult for me to
  • [32:22] Mike: now if it was someone
  • [32:26] Mike: that I had a closer relationship with, maybe then I could be like, oh yeah,
  • [32:29] Keith: sometimes mike people affect something
  • [32:35] Keith: so much that it becomes their routine, right? Like people can change their voice that way and
  • [32:42] Keith: you know, maybe every time she has sex she does this and so now it's just sort of second nature and that's what she does
  • [32:42] Keith: and she can't
  • [32:45] Mike: enjoy it, like uh
  • [32:58] Mike: it's like Elizabeth Holmes, maybe when she has sex, she that's the thoroughness. The lay of the sea, former ceo of Theranos, maybe she talks like this when she's having sex, fuck my pussy, my pussy
  • [33:07] Mike: people, I don't know, I haven't thought about it, She's pretty attractive, keith. I wouldn't, she's an attractive young lady, I'm not,
  • [33:15] Keith: but I mean she definitely fooled the entire board because of her the way she looks. But alright anyway, yeah, I find Elizabeth Holmes okay
  • [33:17] Keith: enough on loud sex.
  • [33:21] Keith: Uh so there's a couple things that uh
  • [33:23] Keith: pertain to the same topic here,
  • [33:31] Keith: they're both kind of funny, so I think I'm going to read them both. The first one says my husband bought a penis sleeve, but I don't know what to do.
  • [33:40] Keith: Okay, first of all, my husband is a good size, he's six inch length and he's around 4.5 girth, and he tells me that, and he tells me that small and he's always had issues with his girth.
  • [33:41] Keith: First off,
  • [33:45] Keith: what is a normal girth?
  • [33:52] Mike: So yeah, I mean, immediately you have this issue of like when, when she says 4.5 inch girth, the word girth to me is
  • [33:54] Mike: uh with,
  • [33:58] Mike: I think it's archive with, but it can't be, well,
  • [34:04] Mike: I don't know what the word girth means, actually is the word girth. Someone have to write an intelligent. No, I do know,
  • [34:10] Keith: you know, I know this, there's a large penis forum on subreddit, subreddit and
  • [34:14] Keith: it has, has guidelines for a Vatican official measurement.
  • [34:17] Keith: And yeah, you take a measuring tape or
  • [34:23] Keith: a piece of yarn and wrap it around when you're erect and then measure the length of that yard to get your girth.
  • [34:35] Mike: So I just googled the, I just googled the word girth and it definitely means circumference so we can move on from that. I was wrong. Um, okay, so 4.5 and 4.5, Like, I think mine's five, so,
  • [34:41] Mike: Uh 4.5 seems reasonable, right? Like mine is sort of a normal size.
  • [34:44] Keith: I don't know. I don't know. What's your question? I have no idea.
  • [34:47] Mike: Can you, can we measure that out right now?
  • [34:49] Keith: No.
  • [34:50] Keith: Uh,
  • [34:58] Keith: uh, sorry, I lost my place here. He tells me that small and he's always had issues with his girth, so
  • [35:00] Keith: okay, but do you have a feeling?
  • [35:05] Keith: Is 5"? Good.
  • [35:10] Mike: I, I don't I don't know. I mean, I remember that famous video of Tommy lee and Pamela
  • [35:14] Mike: lee on the boat or he's fucking her.
  • [35:23] Mike: And uh, he always seemed like he had a really Pamela Anderson. Yeah, he always seemed like a really long and narrow penis. Uh, so, you wonder if like
  • [35:28] Mike: five inches would put you, you know, it's going to be proportional, right? The longer it is, it needs to be wider. Otherwise,
  • [35:33] Keith: certainly, certainly correlate. Yes. They definitely correlate, but they're not,
  • [35:36] Mike: you think with end you think girth and length correlate
  • [35:38] Keith: they must, Right?
  • [35:40] Mike: I actually don't know.
  • [35:49] Mike: It seems likely because at some point would be hard for your body to construct something like an inch penis an inch tall in a mile. I want an inch wide and a mile high. I mean,
  • [36:00] Keith: It's definitely correlates something more than 0%. The question is how much? Anyway. All right enough of this. I'm going to keep reading. I've never had full sex with anyone else, so I've never had anything bigger and he was always able to pleasure me,
  • [36:07] Keith: told him many times that I'm happy with the size. But he decided to buy some penis extending sleeves which adds about an inch in length and anything from
  • [36:11] Keith: half an inch to an inch and a half in girth circumference with the small medium and large sleeve.
  • [36:15] Keith: The first time he used it, I was surprised how it felt he used the smaller one,
  • [36:19] Keith: but it felt really nice. However, I was worried about his feelings. So I said it wasn't great and I didn't like it.
  • [36:30] Keith: We've since used the medium and has requested. I told him the same thing that I wasn't keen and didn't like it despite it feeling really nice. In reality I think we see where this is going
  • [37:02] Keith: good foreshadowing in this story telling on saturday night. He wanted to use the biggest one just so he had given them all ago and oh my God it felt amazing just laid there desperately trying not to express any pleasure. But at one point I involuntarily let out a groan of pleasure. I told him it was because it was hurting. He stopped and told me we didn't have to try them anymore. But I said I would push through it for him if he enjoyed using them but that I didn't like him. How can I tell them that they feel amazing? I've never had anything so big inside me before and I can't believe how much I like them. I want him to use them more often. But what can I say to him? He was insecure about his girth and I don't want to make this
  • [37:06] Keith: make things worse for him and feel inadequate. Help please.
  • [37:09] Keith: Um
  • [37:13] Keith: Yeah, that's not a great situation for anybody here.
  • [37:16] Mike: She's always this reminds me of
  • [37:19] Mike: yeah, it reminds me of the
  • [37:21] Mike: situation where
  • [37:26] Mike: well there's a lot of situations like this. It reminds me of the situation where a guy persuades his
  • [37:44] Mike: wait is that the girl girl, a woman persuades her man to try an mmf threesome and then the guy does something with the other guy and then she rejects him. Like so it's like a trap. It's like she persuaded him to do something and it's it's I'm not sure who's who's trapping whom here or how it works, but like it just reminds me of that this situation that kind of goes not the way you expect it to and like
  • [37:45] Mike: Yeah, I mean,
  • [37:48] Mike: so I because it was he who introduced the sleeves, right?
  • [37:49] Keith: Yes.
  • [37:51] Mike: And now
  • [38:00] Mike: and now it's like why did he do that? Like he's now I mean for her though, it's like, you know, I mean she now knows that she she likes that.
  • [38:01] Mike: Um I
  • [38:25] Keith: guess. Well, okay, alright. Hold on, let me read the next poster because they're similar to this one is kind of funny to uh not sure where this post is going. Kind of using it as a journal because I'm not sure. I feel so my wife and I had talked about getting her a larger toy. We both think she would enjoy it. And I was the one that originally brought it up. So here we go again. Right, well yesterday I went and bought one and we tried it last night. The toy is about the same length as me but about 0.5 inches bigger and girth.
  • [38:32] Keith: We started playing around and almost immediately she left the toy very hot. She was squirming around. We were both having fun sex continue and I inserted,
  • [38:36] Keith: she mentioned I felt so much better than the toy and we played around some more and everything finished up
  • [38:47] Keith: after cleaning up. We had a talk and she started to cry a bit. I asked what was wrong and she admitted she lied to me when she said I felt so much better than the toy. She feels ashamed that so I felt better than me.
  • [38:55] Keith: I should have left it at that. But I cited to prod a bit more and ask her how much better it felt. She wouldn't give an exact answer, but the answer is 50-60
  • [39:04] Keith: after I had to explain to her that the reason we got the toy that was for exactly that to accomplish something I could and there's no shame in her enjoying the toy. I wanted to make sure she felt comfortable which I think I managed.
  • [39:24] Keith: However, now I am stuck in a situation where my heart is just pounding and an anxious way thinking about what she said and how she lied. It's probably been four years since I was able to make her orgasm with any consistency without the use of toys. That is the reason I started convincing her blah blah blah. However, this whole thing has left me feeling, not sure if emasculated is the right word, but I definitely feel inadequate.
  • [39:33] Keith: I know in my head it is because it is a new toy. It is a new experience, will still enjoy me, etcetera. But I just can't get the fact that it is so much better that she cried out of my head.
  • [39:38] Keith: I disagree with this person's analysis that it will be fine.
  • [39:45] Keith: I think there is a serious risk that going forward for both of these people. The woman is going to be
  • [39:49] Keith: always wondering and that that sucks sucks.
  • [39:50] Keith: There's nothing they can do it.
  • [39:55] Mike: I think the analogy would be an analogy would be like if you
  • [40:01] Mike: dated a woman who would do anal or deep throat or something, some like sort of a little bit off activity
  • [40:10] Mike: and or maybe just had like big boobs and you like that and yeah, I mean like there's just this thing you like that the your partner can't provide,
  • [40:15] Keith: right? Yeah. Some subsequent partner doesn't do those things or have those physical features.
  • [40:16] Keith: And uh so
  • [40:18] Mike: there is a compromise that's being made there.
  • [40:21] Keith: You can try and
  • [40:35] Keith: convince yourself and your partner. You can gaslight yourself and your partner that you never think about. That superior experience. But that's not really helpful either. Like I don't know what the right way to dig out of this hole is.
  • [40:41] Keith: Uh don't take it in the first place I suppose. But once you have I'm not sure how you
  • [40:48] Mike: how you before. I don't really know what Yeah. I don't really know what the right thing for the guy to do here is because I mean I can understand why
  • [40:50] Mike: he's thinking, oh it will this will be fun.
  • [40:55] Mike: This will be a fun thing to try. And he's not expecting that outcome. He's expecting
  • [41:00] Mike: it to be fine. But not a big deal. And maybe it's something that would happen occasionally, but not
  • [41:08] Keith: be a major, let's do that. Let's do the tree here mike. Like what are the possible outcomes of this?
  • [41:13] Keith: She's like, oh it's painful or oh it's better. Like those are the only two possible.
  • [41:16] Mike: Sure. But it could be like,
  • [41:21] Mike: I mean it could be something that takes a while for her to warm up to. So it's like not it requires like
  • [41:24] Mike: it's not going to be an everyday activity. Um
  • [41:33] Mike: It could it could be, yeah, like the ideal outcome from the guy's perspective is probably something like what maybe you get with a vibrator, which is like
  • [41:37] Mike: not every time, but it gives her a superior experience
  • [41:46] Mike: sometimes. And so you're like, oh cool, there's like this other thing we can do sometimes and that's probably the ideal outcome. The problem here is that like
  • [41:52] Mike: yeah, I mean if it's if it's just so much superior that she's like, why would I want to do the other thing then? Uh
  • [41:53] Mike: now he's got a problem,
  • [41:55] Mike: right? Um
  • [41:59] Mike: In some ways though, like it might be good for him to discover it because
  • [42:02] Mike: yeah, I mean you could imagine a woman discovering it
  • [42:09] Mike: in a uh like while cheating with a guy or something and then now you have like a more complex issue
  • [42:10] Mike: um
  • [42:13] Mike: or we're getting curious in some different way.
  • [42:15] Keith: Yeah.
  • [42:17] Keith: Yeah. I mean,
  • [42:20] Keith: yeah, I guess the best cases it's uh
  • [42:25] Keith: yeah, it becomes another item on the menu of things you can do, but it's not her favorite food.
  • [42:27] Mike: Um
  • [42:32] Mike: I mean, I suppose, look, they could become polyamorous and we've been told previously that
  • [42:51] Mike: being polyamorous is totally normal and doesn't cause any problems whatsoever in your relationship or for kids or anything. So they could just become polyamorous. I say that tongue in cheek. I mean, I have some skepticism about that. We have been told that. So they could just he could he could use it actually. The clever man, The clever man here would use it that way, right? He'd say, look,
  • [42:52] Mike: look
  • [42:57] Mike: now that we've discovered you need a wider kind of coke can sized cock.
  • [43:07] Mike: How about you? We find you a guy. And then I also have some things I need. Uh and so I'll find that and then it's an opportunity to open up their relationship, right?
  • [43:10] Mike: And she'll want it because
  • [43:11] Mike: yeah,
  • [43:16] Keith: you should you should you should respond that to the threat. I'm sure you'll get downloaded to oblivion.
  • [43:23] Keith: Uh Okay, next next next post. So this is
  • [43:32] Keith: A 22 year old man says he lost his virginity to his friend, a 25 year old female who decided to surprise me the next day with a long list of mistakes I made in bed.
  • [43:53] Keith: And I think you've seen this. But this list is good because it's so vicious, right? Like you can, you can see how each one of these things would sort of hurt his feelings. But it's actually has some decent pieces of advice here. So she's a preschool teacher and she seems to really love her job. I appreciate that she enjoys teaching kids, but sometimes she forgets to deactivate her teacher at mode when she's with me,
  • [44:00] Keith: she's always quick to give me the glasses on the tip of her nose, stare down before correcting me on a random word I pronounced wrong or something.
  • [44:06] Keith: It never really bothered me that she was like that. Not until we decided to sleep together. She knew I was a virgin.
  • [44:15] Keith: I knew she had a high sex drive. We both know every person on the planet was a potential incubator for covid. So I guess the idea of us having sex during a time of social separation was kind of inevitable.
  • [44:23] Keith: Two days ago we hooked up, enjoyed the experience and I thought she did too little. Did I know she made a list of everything I did wrong. She didn't waste any time sending me the list the following morning.
  • [44:25] Keith: This is what I had to read
  • [44:27] Keith: the day after losing my virginity.
  • [44:28] Keith: Number one
  • [44:37] Keith: thrusting is not just rapid in and out movements, like your impaling my vagina, but also swaying your hips like your hula hooping and slow mile.
  • [44:39] Keith: So
  • [44:42] Mike: is that true? I mean, is that something you do, keith
  • [44:44] Keith: hula hooping?
  • [44:53] Mike: Well, I mean, so my take on that is that like, I don't think for most women the thrusting matters that much. And so, I mean, I get like the
  • [45:04] Mike: I get what she's saying and then it's like she doesn't want to be jackhammered. That's that's how I take that. But I'm not sure, like, swaying back and forth. I'm not sure what that does for either person. Do you have a take on that?
  • [45:06] Keith: Uh
  • [45:21] Keith: Yeah, I don't think it does much for me. I don't think it does much for women. You'll see it in porn sometimes because it creates sort of an interesting visual, but I don't think it's really doing anything either. The parties involved. Yeah, this this particular piece of feedback is odd.
  • [45:26] Mike: I don't well, it just feels to me like she's basically saying you jack hammered me, but she's saying it in a weird way.
  • [45:29] Keith: It's like she was trying to give like some sort of
  • [45:36] Keith: Alternate suggestion, but the alternates suggestion is sort of weird. All right, look, there's 13 of these. We can't focus
  • [45:46] Keith: Too much. No two. If you notice me plucking one of your pubes for my tongue or teeth during a blowjob, just allow it to happen without providing an awkward apology.
  • [45:50] Keith: Sure. Yeah. I mean
  • [45:52] Keith: he was trying to be considerate.
  • [45:53] Keith: Ah
  • [46:01] Keith: But you know, whatever. Alright. Uh Number three follow up to number two hands off my head when I'm blowing you.
  • [46:04] Keith: So this is an interesting one. I've had partners
  • [46:06] Keith: put my hands on their head
  • [46:11] Keith: what I'm blowing them, so I don't know.
  • [46:13] Mike: Yeah, I think part of their head
  • [46:22] Keith: the back. Some people like, look, we've been through this before, but to repeat for listeners who haven't heard our entire canon of episodes. Some women
  • [46:35] Keith: like to be in control, the one delivering the blow job, and some people like to be as they say, face fucked. And it just sort of depends on the person or on the mood that day.
  • [46:41] Mike: Yeah, I just would I mean, this is a little different than that, right? I mean, usually face fucking is
  • [46:49] Mike: the man on top or he's actually using his pelvis to thrust here. Your this is yet a third option, right? Where it's like you're guiding,
  • [46:53] Mike: right? You're you're moving her head. Sure.
  • [46:55] Mike: Yeah. There's some other word you need for that.
  • [46:57] Mike: Um You're right, It's a different
  • [47:00] Keith: women. Yeah, it's a different axis.
  • [47:06] Keith: Uh number four. No need to say, I'm in when you put your penis inside another person.
  • [47:07] Keith: Mhm.
  • [47:08] Mike: Yeah,
  • [47:09] Mike: that's true. I
  • [47:16] Keith: mean, this guy is a virgin, right? Like, you know, getting it lined up the first time is a little bit tricky. Like he was probably
  • [47:19] Keith: fumbling around a little bit and then
  • [47:20] Keith: Mhm.
  • [47:26] Keith: Look, I'm in is not the most romantic thing to say, but I don't think you can really
  • [47:29] Keith: Blast him for that, and now he's probably embarrassed, right? # five.
  • [47:30] Mike: There is a difference. Really? Hang on
  • [47:31] Keith: hand. Yeah,
  • [47:35] Mike: keith. I have a question about this. What do you think about the
  • [47:42] Mike: So he is using the terminology? I referring to his penis and women really like to say things like inside of me.
  • [47:43] Mike: Mhm.
  • [47:45] Mike: Right, They like to use
  • [47:52] Mike: the personal pronoun instead of like, inside of and then say which part of their body. I always find that I don't I don't like that.
  • [47:58] Mike: How does how does that, how does that strike you? Like, I don't like it when people say inside me
  • [48:00] Keith: uh
  • [48:02] Mike: it doesn't strike you at all,
  • [48:10] Keith: I kind of like it, but I think it's because it implies uh an intimacy. And so I understand why you don't like it,
  • [48:12] Mike: jesus.
  • [48:17] Mike: I think it was like, yeah, they're like they're like uh they're making too.
  • [48:24] Mike: Yeah. Yeah. It's like they're trying to like up level the situation in a way that I don't appreciate. Like
  • [48:30] Mike: Yeah. And actually I have a question like, if you were doing anal, do you think she would say he's inside of me, then
  • [48:34] Mike: is me your anus also your rector? Or is it just in china?
  • [48:39] Keith: Think I don't I don't know, but I suspect that would
  • [48:42] Keith: it's a colloquialism and I don't think
  • [48:48] Keith: people say that when referring like, do gay men use that?
  • [48:49] Mike: I have no idea.
  • [48:56] Mike: It just seems like it just it feels like some sort of like linguistic control mechanism. It's like by saying it's me,
  • [49:05] Mike: they're trying to like, I don't know, it just strikes me wrong. It's interesting that you like it and it does track with uh different attitudes and approaches toward intimacy,
  • [49:12] Keith: Right? Okay. No five. There's a difference between moaning which is hot and humming, which is just weird. Dude, you're a Hummer.
  • [49:14] Keith: Uh
  • [49:16] Keith: Okay.
  • [49:17] Keith: Mm hmm.
  • [49:21] Keith: Uh Okay, fine. I guess. I mean
  • [49:24] Keith: I guess she doesn't like the way he moans.
  • [49:28] Mike: Well, I mean he's doing a set of activities here that
  • [49:44] Mike: kind of drive a distance between them, right? It's like it's as if he's beating off, he's humming, he's saying I'm in like, it's like she's not there, he's jackhammering her like this like all of this collectively she's like, hey. And it sort of makes sense because like he said at the outset that like they were
  • [49:55] Mike: friends, right? It's like kind of like, oh it's like a F. W. B. Type scenario. So like yeah he's just this is a this is a sex of opportunity, not relationship oriented sex.
  • [49:58] Mike: Yeah he's he's treating her like an object, not a person.
  • [50:01] Mike: That's my overall interpretation here.
  • [50:09] Keith: I don't know. Well okay let's keep going. Six repeatedly asking me if it feels good becomes distracting when it's actually feeling good.
  • [50:16] Keith: Uh Yeah I mean that's just sort of revealing his insecurity right? Like he was probably
  • [50:23] Keith: feeling insecure inadequate. And so he asked her apparently multiple times
  • [50:28] Keith: And uh of course that puts pressure on her and she didn't like that. Okay seven
  • [50:34] Keith: kissing and groping is still possible during penetration. Otherwise our upper bodies might as well just leave the room.
  • [50:37] Keith: This supports your theory.
  • [50:39] Mike: Where
  • [50:52] Keith: is just using her. Uh Okay. Eight talking dirty sounds unnatural coming from you. I don't know. It's like hearing your favorite Disney character used the word fuck.
  • [50:53] Keith: Ah
  • [50:56] Mike: That's our that's our time in.
  • [51:01] Mike: Yeah. Again, they're not like they're not there. Yeah, this is like,
  • [51:12] Mike: yes, this is like the list of things that would be said if you had sex with somebody you're not attracted to. That's in some ways. That's what's going on here, right? She's just not attracted to him.
  • [51:17] Mike: Like, I think that's right. Like, hey, I I find your body disgusting and I didn't well, like this
  • [51:20] Keith: might also be awkward mike. I mean,
  • [51:21] Keith: that's true.
  • [51:30] Keith: It could be like that. It was, yeah, he probably is, it could be that he was sort of on the edge of attractive for her. And then he down leveled a little bit. Did he say? How
  • [51:31] Mike: old he was?
  • [51:33] Keith: 22? She's 25.
  • [51:40] Mike: Okay. 22. We should talk about this. But have you seen the stat recently floating around on the Internet that
  • [51:42] Mike: the percentage of men
  • [51:49] Mike: Under 30 who are virgins has gone from under 10 like 25 years ago to like 30
  • [51:52] Keith: in the United States
  • [51:53] Mike: or worldwide,
  • [51:55] Mike: wow. No. In the U. S.
  • [51:58] Keith: That's
  • [52:00] Keith: interesting.
  • [52:02] Keith: Yeah. Okay. Let's table that for now.
  • [52:04] Keith: Yeah. Something
  • [52:10] Keith: Interesting to discuss their okay, Alright. nine. I'm not naked for nothing. So no need to close your eyes when I'm writing you.
  • [52:11] Keith: So,
  • [52:15] Keith: in my experience, a more modest women
  • [52:18] Keith: don't like writing me
  • [52:22] Keith: because I think they feel insecure about their bodies
  • [52:23] Keith: and less modest. Sure
  • [52:27] Keith: less women sort of do so, yeah, it sounds like
  • [52:40] Keith: this person is not very modest and she found his avoiding eye contact or avoiding of squeezing his eyes shut. Uh Maybe even insulting a little bit.
  • [52:43] Keith: Right? That implies she sort of attracted to him though.
  • [52:52] Mike: This is this is a roller maybe. I mean, she might she might also viewed writing him this primarily something for his benefit, not something she was getting that much out of.
  • [52:53] Keith: I. C.
  • [53:00] Keith: Fair enough. Okay, alright. 10 teasing me with your tongue as you made your way to work. My vagina was good until you kind of forgot about my vagina because you're
  • [53:03] Keith: too busy rimming my belly button.
  • [53:10] Keith: Uh I've had a number of partners who really don't like their belly button being touched.
  • [53:12] Mike: Okay. Any reason why
  • [53:14] Keith: uh
  • [53:20] Keith: I never really double clicked on any of them to figure out why. I think it's
  • [53:24] Keith: kind of weird and not very not super erogenous. And so
  • [53:25] Keith: yeah,
  • [53:34] Keith: my guess is like they had a previous partner that was obsessed with it or something. And so they needed to say something and you know, now it's like a trigger or something.
  • [53:36] Mike: I'm not sure. It's certainly I don't think
  • [53:42] Mike: ever. Erogenous. I'm not sure you don't want to say ever, but I think it's not yeah, not very compelling.
  • [53:53] Keith: Number 11 is good, consistency is key during oral. So if I breathe heavier mon harder or grind all over your face, don't change what you're doing down there, otherwise you're never going to make me come. So
  • [53:57] Keith: in my experience, women who tell you what to do uh
  • [54:07] Keith: are the best otherwise. Yeah, and we talked about this before, otherwise I can sort of like deploy my encyclopedia things and see what it seems like they like. Um But yeah, most women are not
  • [54:11] Keith: super confident communicating what they want. And so
  • [54:21] Keith: yeah, when you're going down on someone, if if someone is giving you cues that they're enjoying it, for example, breathing heavier, moaning harder or grinding uh yeah, just keep it up and don't
  • [54:23] Mike: So hang on
  • [54:32] Mike: keith, How do you So in your experience of women who actually explicitly tell you what they want you to be doing, like can you give some examples of what they say?
  • [54:34] Keith: Uh
  • [54:42] Mike: like how how how anatomical do they get? Like Yeah like what I actually made a serious picture. This is not a thing that depicted in porn. For example,
  • [54:47] Keith: you're right. It varies. That's that's a great point. You would never see this important. Uh
  • [54:52] Keith: I've had I've been asked to like insert a finger, insert another finger
  • [54:53] Keith: um
  • [54:59] Keith: harder, softer, Higher, lower. I mean some people
  • [55:03] Keith: it's great, right? Because you know there
  • [55:09] Keith: yeah them being able to give that feedback implies that they
  • [55:14] Keith: yeah there's like a confidence there that
  • [55:15] Keith: is he
  • [55:21] Keith: like, you know that you know they're not pretending, right? Like I have this concern that. Sure.
  • [55:28] Keith: Yeah. People are just like pretending to enjoy something instead of actually. And if they're giving you feedback, then
  • [55:32] Keith: you don't need to worry about them pretending. And that's that's nice
  • [55:34] Mike: and also higher. Higher.
  • [55:36] Mike: Higher means closer to their belly button.
  • [55:37] Keith: Yeah, I think
  • [55:40] Mike: and harder means. What does harder mean
  • [55:44] Keith: uh you can apply more or less pressure with your tongue or your mouth?
  • [55:45] Mike: Okay,
  • [55:47] Mike: okay. On their clit.
  • [55:48] Keith: Yeah.
  • [55:50] Keith: Um and then we talked about this with ali
  • [55:59] Keith: some people sort of like pressure applied to their clit, like with your tongue in your mouth, like sort of going up and down the side of it.
  • [56:04] Keith: And some people like it sort of more going back and forth across it. And
  • [56:08] Keith: that's just various, like different women, like different stuff.
  • [56:09] Keith: Um
  • [56:16] Keith: And if they don't tell you, then you just have to like experiment and, you know pay attention to moaning and you know various
  • [56:18] Keith: non vocal cues,
  • [56:20] Mike: so. Right
  • [56:26] Keith: Okay 12 consent is always good. But you don't need my permission to switch positions.
  • [56:26] Keith: Mhm.
  • [56:30] Keith: Yeah. She wanted him to be more assertive.
  • [56:31] Keith: Uh huh.
  • [56:33] Keith: I think
  • [56:40] Keith: I'm not sure what the book is on this, but I'm guessing the book says you're supposed to ask consent to switch positions.
  • [56:46] Keith: What book? I don't know. Like now there's like this micro consent concept that's becoming
  • [56:48] Keith: increasingly
  • [56:50] Keith: espoused by
  • [56:51] Keith: uh
  • [56:54] Keith: the progressive crab.
  • [57:04] Mike: Uh huh. Okay. It seems like it would be just as easy because I mean uh well I mean one of there's a number of challenges, like you might not know the name of the position so then you have to draw a picture on a white board or something
  • [57:07] Mike: like we're doing we're going to move to this position.
  • [57:12] Mike: Uh You see what I'm saying? Like you may not have a name for every possible position.
  • [57:21] Mike: I guess. You could just say, is it okay if we change positions? And then she'd be like, well, which yeah, I mean she can't give consent. Then. I'm assuming the man is asking the woman for consent by the way.
  • [57:26] Keith: Yes. That was the that was the implication here. Yeah,
  • [57:27] Keith: Yeah,
  • [57:33] Keith: Yeah. Look, the linguistic uh particulars here, I'm not sure about, but
  • [57:35] Keith: uh
  • [57:39] Mike: Okay. And would you say, I mean, I guess, yeah, it gets complicated.
  • [57:41] Keith: I don't know. Like uh let's do dogs. Now.
  • [57:43] Mike: Did Emma,
  • [57:47] Mike: did Emma ask you consent when she started writing your face?
  • [57:49] Keith: Uh
  • [57:50] Keith: No,
  • [57:53] Mike: I don't remember. You know, consent was given?
  • [57:54] Mike: None. None given.
  • [58:08] Keith: Yeah. Clearly an assault. Okay. 13. Uh you have a come face. You must have please invent one if you don't because an expressionless orgasm is unattractive as fuck.
  • [58:10] Keith: So I'm guessing he, I mean look,
  • [58:14] Keith: this boy was just
  • [58:18] Keith: having sex for his first time. He did make some mistakes here. Um
  • [58:24] Keith: But yeah, do you think getting this list of feedback is actually net positive or negative for him?
  • [58:28] Keith: Like these are actually decent pieces of feedback.
  • [58:35] Mike: I think it could be, I think it could be spun very easily positive in the sense that he could
  • [58:37] Mike: uh
  • [58:45] Mike: try to find a way to get to have sex with a lot of times. Uh to say, hey, I want to work on each of these or something like that,
  • [58:50] Keith: like very common through some opportunity here. That's a very common trope and porn, right?
  • [58:59] Keith: It's like the, you know the stepsisters? Like oh I need to practice giving blowjobs so it can be better for my boyfriend stepbrothers like Oh well yeah, it is
  • [59:09] Mike: super. Never watch. I never watched the the plot part of the porn, so I actually had no idea like I know I don't I've essentially never watched the part where they have a plot. I just
  • [59:13] Mike: immediately skipped past that. Okay, wait, hold on.
  • [59:15] Keith: Kind of dovetails into.
  • [59:18] Keith: All right, let's cover one last thing before we sign off here. So
  • [59:21] Keith: when you view porn,
  • [59:30] Keith: okay, first, do you prefer different positions while masturbating to porn versus what you prefer in real life?
  • [59:32] Mike: You're asking whether
  • [59:40] Mike: the positions I view on the screen are the same as or different from what I like doing in real life.
  • [59:42] Mike: For sure they're different. Okay.
  • [59:45] Mike: I mean for starters like
  • [59:48] Mike: let's see,
  • [59:56] Mike: okay and hang on a second, hang on a second. The reason I was going to the reason I immediately said definitely they're different is because there's certain porn that like is basically told from the point of view of the woman.
  • [60:17] Mike: And so then it's like or whatever where there's like no man in the born and so then it's like well that's different, right? It's like like a woman masturbating or something is not something that would exist for me uh in in real life in terms of I'm just not there in real life. Um In terms of the positions. No I think that typically
  • [60:19] Mike: uh
  • [60:25] Mike: the thing that's arousing is like fantasizing yourself in the situation. So if there is a position that I know I don't really like then it's going to
  • [60:31] Mike: I'm not going to watch that in porn. Why do you do you have a different take on that?
  • [60:32] Keith: Uh
  • [60:34] Keith: I think my
  • [60:40] Keith: favorite position in real life and favorite position in porn is the same. But it's
  • [60:42] Keith: I don't
  • [60:44] Keith: uh
  • [60:45] Keith: But I also watch.
  • [60:50] Keith: Yeah I mean I bet the ratios are pretty similar. I don't know.
  • [60:54] Mike: So you must you must like watching a lot of face sitting porn that.
  • [60:55] Keith: Mhm.
  • [61:07] Keith: Uh So my favorite I mean look this is this is like as vanilla as it gets. But my favorite position is is missionary. And the reason why I like it in porn is because I feel like you get like the best
  • [61:10] Keith: view of the woman's body.
  • [61:13] Mike: What camera angle is your favorite though?
  • [61:15] Keith: Uh
  • [61:16] Keith: Something.
  • [61:18] Mike: Yeah. It's more complex than that.
  • [61:21] Keith: Probably point of view
  • [61:22] Mike: of the man.
  • [61:24] Keith: Yes.
  • [61:33] Keith: No, from the point of view, from the point of view, I'm going to get the propositions. You're not of the man from from the man
  • [61:38] Mike: because they have female point of view, missionary porn. And it's basically like
  • [61:46] Keith: Yeah I saw that Amy shop, the amy schumer skin. It's like some guys just grinding on her face.
  • [61:47] Keith: Mhm.
  • [61:48] Mike: Yes.
  • [61:51] Mike: Right. And then she tries to like she tries to
  • [61:56] Mike: hold his hand and he bats her hand away or something. And then there's like a
  • [62:00] Mike: There's 30 seconds of her just basically you just see the wall and you're like going in and out toward the
  • [62:07] Keith: wall. She's a doggy style. Her face is just like, you know, grinding into the pillow or whatever. Right.
  • [62:08] Mike: Anyway. No, I
  • [62:11] Keith: mean, yeah, okay,
  • [62:13] Mike: hang on. But there are other I just want to
  • [62:18] Mike: for our listeners benefit here. There are other options. I mean there's sort of a side view
  • [62:27] Mike: uh There is the view. That is the view that I've been told by many women they dislike the most, which is the behind the man view.
  • [62:31] Mike: Women. It's basically the two anuses view, right?
  • [62:40] Mike: And nobody, I don't think man I don't think anybody likes that view. And yet they fairly frequently show that view in porn. I don't know why. Well where
  • [62:45] Keith: are you supposed to put the camera? It's tricky.
  • [62:48] Mike: Well the whole point is what do you mean if you if you don't have a cameraman
  • [62:54] Keith: but well if you don't have a camera man you can't have it behind the man. But if you do have a cameraman
  • [62:55] Mike: like
  • [62:59] Mike: you know you put the camera set it on a tripod.
  • [63:01] Keith: Okay fine. Yes.
  • [63:06] Keith: Okay fine. Regardless of whether or not you have a cameraman, where do you think?
  • [63:12] Keith: Like it seems like a good place to put the camera? It's not because it's not a compelling visual but
  • [63:13] Keith: I can imagine. Right?
  • [63:17] Mike: I mean normally dinner porn directly. It can be sort of
  • [63:27] Mike: Yeah I think it would normally be looking over the man's shoulder or from the side and then there's also the female point of view, so the woman is either holding it or it's somehow over her shoulder
  • [63:34] Mike: or whatever over her body which there are certain angles of that, that would be okay. But generally it's not what a man wants to see.
  • [63:38] Mike: The female gaze.
  • [63:43] Mike: Yeah I mean like there that makes me think of this thing of like yeah I tend to like amateur porn and one of the
  • [63:53] Mike: bummers for me is like when I get to a porn and I'm like oh this is a good one and then the camera starts moving which tells you this camera man say God this is not not in any way amateur.
  • [63:54] Keith: Yeah. I mean a lot
  • [63:55] Mike: of even though I'm realistic,
  • [64:03] Keith: you know a lot of things that are shot to be point of view porn aren't actually filmed by the guy. It's it's a third person camera.
  • [64:04] Keith: Um
  • [64:12] Keith: Yeah, I believe that and it's tricky like if the man's holding his camera like yeah he needs like a wide angle lens to sort of take in
  • [64:15] Keith: having a cameraman makes it so that they can do more.
  • [64:16] Mike: Yeah
  • [64:29] Mike: sure. So when you But okay so you like the male point of view missionary. But there's still more options there. Do you like it to be sort of her full body or just showing the penetration or going back and forth or her face or what?
  • [64:30] Mike: Uh huh.
  • [64:34] Keith: This is an interesting question because
  • [64:40] Keith: I do like getting zoomed in detail. Like I really like being able to see,
  • [64:45] Keith: I don't know if it's creepy or weird or whatever but I like being able to see like the contours of people's skin,
  • [64:47] Keith: right? And so
  • [64:59] Keith: uh if you're if you're too zoomed out, it doesn't feel as real, like I like it when it's zoomed in and I really don't like airbrushed pictures of women for this reason. Because you can't get you can't like see like I like seeing
  • [65:04] Keith: you know, little imperfections and goose bumps and whatever stretch marks, I find that
  • [65:06] Keith: attractive or humanizing or something.
  • [65:10] Keith: So if you're zoomed too far out, you don't get that. But if you're zoomed too far in
  • [65:15] Keith: uh so that you do get that. I really like that aspect. But if the camera isn't moving
  • [65:18] Keith: at the right cadence, like if it stays
  • [65:23] Keith: in a certain area for too long and I'm like, ok, okay, like, you know, you know, pan up, pan down,
  • [65:25] Keith: I get sort of annoyed and it
  • [65:27] Keith: takes me out of the moment. So
  • [65:29] Keith: I don't have a good answer that question,
  • [65:34] Mike: Do you? And 11 more we we do have to to end here but one more.
  • [65:41] Mike: What about the uh the nut situation? So let's say it's your perfect porn. It's a very attractive lady. You're getting this nice
  • [65:56] Mike: high quality image of the penetration happening. Where do you want the guy to nut? And yeah. Where do you want the guy tonight? I know you don't time you're not with the guy actually. I think you time it with something else if I remember correctly from the past. But do you have a preference there? I mean I don't puddle.
  • [65:59] Keith: Yeah I don't have a great answer to this because like the cum shot
  • [66:01] Keith: I find generally revolting.
  • [66:03] Keith: And so
  • [66:07] Mike: I don't know if it's if it's if it's internal though you don't see it. So then it's just well when
  • [66:14] Keith: its internal they always do this thing where like, you know, they pump and then they pull out and you know, you can see the cream pie drip down.
  • [66:16] Keith: That's true. That's the general thing they do.
  • [66:20] Mike: Do you find there is there is a style of porn where there is
  • [66:25] Mike: where they specifically take pains to show the guy's penis sort of
  • [66:27] Mike: throbbing. Yeah. You like
  • [66:29] Keith: that? No,
  • [66:33] Keith: that's a negative to you.
  • [66:35] Keith: Mhm.
  • [66:48] Mike: I think I'm neutral. I don't think it's a negative. I think I'm just neutral. It's not it doesn't add anything as against him being fully inserted. And I don't like the cum shot doesn't bother me as much as it does. You like to me it's just sort of
  • [66:54] Mike: it's all the same. Like I don't it's not it doesn't revolt me. It's just whatever.
  • [67:00] Mike: And since I'm like, I'm not imagining that I'm in an mmf threesome. I'm imagining I am that guy. So then it's not,
  • [67:08] Mike: I don't care, right? It's like, you know, so I would have a preference for internal because yeah, you don't want a puddle of nut to clean up
  • [67:10] Mike: better than that. Like whatever.
  • [67:11] Keith: Yeah.
  • [67:13] Mike: I just imagine I'm the guy,
  • [67:18] Keith: I just don't watch cum shots often enough to have an opinion on this.
  • [67:23] Keith: I find some of the like face cum shots sort of,
  • [67:27] Keith: I mean it almost always, you can tell the girl is like
  • [67:31] Keith: wondering what her life choices were like. They almost always look annoyed
  • [67:35] Keith: and these are like corn starts right? Like
  • [67:46] Keith: um But I think it's because the trope is to like make as huge of a mess as possible, right? Like, you know, they get it in there I or in their hair or whatever, like I know women don't get income in their hair
  • [67:47] Keith: because
  • [67:50] Keith: like that either need to shower immediately or you know
  • [67:52] Keith: they have come in their hair for a while.
  • [67:54] Keith: Um. Right.
  • [67:58] Mike: Yeah. No it's all about the guy liking to look what I did look what I did to her.
  • [67:59] Mike: It's the
  • [68:01] Mike: yeah telling this of it.
  • [68:09] Keith: Yeah but then like 30 seconds later you have to deal with you know your girlfriend having come in her hair just not great.
  • [68:13] Mike: Yeah. Well her face smells of nut.
  • [68:14] Keith: Right?
  • [68:15] Keith: It's rough.
  • [68:27] Keith: It is rough. Okay that's enough. So thank you for listening tips. 34 of your mileage may vary reminder. We pay $15 for feedbacks sent to Y. M. M. V. Pot at gmail dot com.