Enjoy YMMV? Please click the above button to subscribe to the show!
Give us your email for show notes and reminders:  
To participate or give feedback, email us at ymmvpod@gmail.com.

Episode 66: She Comes Second? Are Radical Feminists Just Female Incels? Plus: MMF Invitations

Team YMMV | 5-12-2022 | 1:03:35

Read The Transcript

      RSS             S      

In a move right out of Ally's playbook, a woman really doesn't like it when she climaxes before her male partner. Looks like it's some sort of race to see who gets the better experience. As always, the winner is the person who comes second.

We discuss a bit of radical feminist theory, and how it relates to the current trend of sugar dating. Mike gets in his jibe that radical feminists are the "female equivalent of incels." There's no possible way that comment could cause any blowback.

What's going on when Leonardo DiCaprio dates a succession of very young women who all pretty much look the same? Is it narcissism, or does he just want to avoid actually viewing them as human beings? And, is there any difference there?

More topics include hair pulling, after-sex cleaning and willingness to explore MMF situations if invited.

To follow along with the videos discussed at the beginning of the episode, click the below. We started watching at the 2:00 mark:

https://ymmv.me/66/jedi-mind-chick

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/66/she-comes-second

https://ymmv.me/66/sugaring

https://ymmv.me/66/hair-pulling

https://ymmv.me/66/cleaning

https://ymmv.me/66/invitation

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

  • [00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with an often controversial but always in good faithth style. We hope you'll enjoy our combination of candor and dead pan humor today. We're going to talk about the post-sugar dating experience for sugar babies hair pulling how to clean up after sex and more I'm Keith my co-host is Mike. How do you feel about that new intro mic.
  • [00:22] Mike: I'm not sure I always operate in good faith, but but it's good.
  • [00:47] Keith: Yeah I I thought that too and then I was trying to figure out a way to work in what is in spirit always in good faith. But yeah, it was getting too wordy. Yeah all right I'll I'll I'll keep going back to the drawing board on that one. Ah.
  • [00:53] Mike: Yep.
  • [01:26] Keith: Have you listened to our last episode I thought the audio quality specifically your audio quality was awful and I'm worried we've driven people away with our last 2 episodes.
  • [01:14] Mike: Yes I don't think we have actually the our statistics show ah tell Otherwise we continue to grow at a nice healthy rate the um somehow I mean I'm not sure if we but should be but we are ah the um.
  • [02:08] Keith: Right.
  • [01:52] Mike: Yeah, it was because we were in the same room using a single microphone and apparently the setting on that microphone that's supposed to make a person on the opposite side meaning me sound good like wasn't functioning so you were like hearing some weird echo of me and you sounded pretty good. So.
  • [02:40] Keith: Yeah, ah the yeti microphone we use has 4 modes stereo cardoid omnidirectional and bidirectional and we used bidirectional and assiduously set ourselves up so that we were right across from each other in about the same distance from the microphone and yet.
  • [02:41] Mike: Yeah, see.
  • [03:18] Keith: It sounded awful. So I'm really irritated about that.
  • [02:58] Mike: The thing we did not do of course would be the basic test of just like recording 10 seconds of us talking and listening back so we apologize for that? yes.
  • [03:29] Keith: Well, you ask too much. You ask too much I did like being able to interrupt you in real time without having to compensate for the audio delay between our 2 physical locations.
  • [03:34] Mike: Yeah I mean I think that. Ah, if we got to the point where we were like professionally doing this I think that ah professional studios like you know so this isn't very interesting but like the issue is.
  • [04:16] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [03:59] Mike: Ah, if even if if we were like had a window between us and we're in the same room. You would still have like a delay between when I say something and you hear it because it would have to go out to the internet and come back in a professional studio. It wouldn't be that way because you'd be like connected to some kind of mixing console that's pretty high-end equipment there and would require us to be in the same place consistently. So.
  • [04:43] Keith: Right? Yeah, all right something pros to aspire to um all right with that I'm going to skip the long form.
  • [04:39] Mike: Probably unlikely, but.
  • [05:15] Keith: Begging this episode but folks please rate and review our show and please tell others about us. Thank you and before we get to the porn I have a quick topic from Reddit that's a follow up on a common theme here. So I'm just going to get into it. Okay, this person says unpopular opinion I don't like for guys to make me come first. This is obviously written by a woman. If I 19 year old female come during foreplay or even get close to it I lose most of my interest and go numb halfway through sex after which it just becomes painful but it's rare that I'll come from PivSex so guys who want to satisfy me end up disheartened very quickly. They realize if they want to satisfy me. They're going to have to put in more effort after sex which just never happens. Pretty much means I end up choosing guys who are only interested in their own pleasure over guys who are considerate because explaining my situation ruins the mood freaks them out. Okay, so this young lady nineteen years old has noticed that men are sort of uninterested in helping her out after they've had an orgasm. But she seems to have decided that she thinks that she needs to look for men who are okay with her not coming first I think she's going to struggle in that regard.
  • [07:10] Mike: Yeah I ah I actually made a mistake 2 episodes ago and this gives me a chance to correct it. Ah careful listeners will know the mistake I made which is I was trying to figure out in a gay men gay male couple who who wins the race and I got it wrong.
  • [07:44] Keith: Oh.
  • [07:48] Mike: I said the guy who comes first wins and actually it's and then like I was thinking about it later and I was like no no, that's wrong. It's the person who comes second and this is just a great ah description of that like yeah if both people are going to have the post-nut clarity experience. You want to be the one who comes second because then you are horny when the first when your partner comes.
  • [08:33] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [08:44] Keith: Right? yes.
  • [08:26] Mike: Ah, you don't want to not be horny when your partner comes because then it's not that different from just like ah being a medical professional watching a seizure right? Yeah and like helps and helps you connect with them too like you actually care.
  • [09:03] Keith: Right? Horniness suppresses all of your Disgust reflexes in some fairly amazing ways and so yeah.
  • [09:02] Mike: Well okay, I'm sure I'm a little unusual in this but like yeah, it's actually gent like it's much more clinical this I bet this is sort of you would vibe with this like it's so it's sort of clinical feeling like if you let's say that you go first you come first.
  • [09:49] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [09:30] Mike: And within 5 minutes out so you're in post-nut clarity and she has an orgasm is kind of clinical for me, it's like I'm just not yeah, just not that interested like emotionally in what's happening I'm detached.
  • [10:08] Keith: Yeah, clinical is really good word choice there. Nice work. Yeah I can feel that my partner is enjoying me helping her out but it's ah yeah, but the arousal in Horniness is just completely gone in those moments After. I've orgasmed and so yeah, like I I'm not.. It's not that I Yeah, it's hard to describe. Yeah clinical clinical is the right word. It's just not um, nearly as compelling as it is before I've Orgasmed. It's strange. She says that.
  • [10:52] Mike: Can I yeah go ahead? No you go ahead? yeah.
  • [11:20] Keith: Ah, go ahead. Well let me let me just say 1 more thing about her. Okay, she says she loses most of her interest and goes numb halfway through sex after which it just becomes painful. So I don't know what's going on there if that's indeed the case she's in a tricky situation here. But yeah, this notion of go ahead.
  • [11:24] Mike: I Think that's just I was just going to say I think it's a spectrum of experience and I think you know there are I think it's somewhat common actually for women to have ah a steeper curve there I mean everybody has some kind of a curve like I mean. Yeah, yeah I mean eventually you're going to be start losing interest and it's just a question of when it happens and so it makes sense to me that for some women it would happen kind of quickly. It's just typically slower for women.
  • [12:42] Keith: Yeah I mean yeah, it's much much much much slower in almost all cases and of course there's outliers.
  • [12:32] Mike: And there's actually there's 1 other thing which is yeah I mean there's 1 other thing which is that um you know and we really still statistically know this from the internet that watching men orgasm is not look. It's something that. You would need to be aroused to to see that and we know that because women don't like Dick Pics generally women like ah systematically when a video of a man ejaculating just by himself is posted online. It gets all all down votes. So you know that like that's not really something somebody wants to see unless they're really in the mood.
  • [13:53] Keith: Sure. Yeah I.
  • [13:46] Mike: So so you see what I'm saying like its it's a combination at least the clinical thing you're seeing as a man you can go Oh this is this is what men want to see I should be happy to get to see this vagina being manipulated but seeing a guy beat off or whatever is just never a good right? You're just like oh you know.
  • [14:33] Keith: Yeah I think that's generally true I mean the reason why penis porn gets downvoted so much is because 90% of the people on porn supperits and on porn sites are men although gay men would upfote it so that.
  • [14:40] Mike: I Think it's a combination. Yeah, there is on the ah women oriented porn subreddits. There is some amount of posting of male masturbation videos but not that much even there because I just yeah I mean.
  • [15:09] Keith: That yeah.
  • [15:28] Keith: And is it unpopular there.
  • [15:16] Mike: People will make a show of it's hard to say it's a little hard to say because unlike us what was the thing you said in the intro where we try to keep it real or be honest or whatever it was ah yeah and good faith I think that this is true. Actually 1 thing i.
  • [15:42] Keith: Okay.
  • [15:56] Keith: Ah, often controversial but always in good faith.
  • [15:51] Mike: I've noticed this is absolutely true is that on the female-oriented porn subreddits the women don't always operate in good faith. In other words, they'll get excited about a posting because it's like some political they're like oh I want to see some porn from Ukraine it's like really.
  • [16:30] Keith: Sure.
  • [16:25] Mike: Like really, that's what's turning you on you know? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, there were people asking for that. But so let me ask you I wanted to ask you a quick question here. Ah that just occurred I remember wanting to ask you this. So um, you've had you have a you're not that interested in anal.
  • [16:50] Keith: Ah, there's some performative virtue signaling even it it poured consumption. Okay.
  • [17:26] Keith: Correct.
  • [17:04] Mike: Like you've done it. But it's not like you know you're not that excited about it. But here I wanted to ask you this. Do you ever masturbate to porn showing anal is that compelling to you int. Okay, and would you ever be in a mood where you're like today I'm going to watch. Yeah you know would it would it ever be like sort of the comeshot of what you watch.
  • [17:41] Keith: Yes, yes, it is.
  • [18:04] Keith: Yeah, sometimes.
  • [17:43] Mike: Is anal or would it be you know, interesting. So how do you think about that like your lack of relative interest and then but then you're like yeah you know this is really turning me on this is really hot. How does that work.
  • [18:25] Keith: I Don't know I recognize the contradiction and I don't exactly know what's going on in my brain there.
  • [18:19] Mike: Okay, yeah I have the same thing and I also didn't know that's why I thought I'd bring it I It actually occurred to me while I was yeah I was consuming this and I was like Wow this is something I actually don't want to do but like it's to me the insight that I had when I was watching it was something like this is very dominant.
  • [18:47] Keith: Yeah I don't have any insight. Ah, right.
  • [19:17] Keith: Yeah I think that's part of it for me too. Yeah I need to introspect about it a bit I'm not yeah I'm not coming up with anything immediately here. So yeah I need to think about it which is why I like watching certain kinds of porn.
  • [18:58] Mike: And I liked that.
  • [19:22] Mike: Okay, that was my question.
  • [19:57] Keith: Certain activities in porn that I'm not really interested in performing myself or not nearly as interested in performing myself.
  • [19:45] Mike: Yeah,, there's a separate thing I mean yeah, so exactly there's a separate thing I do which is more I would call it like research like things where I'm It's not arousing at all or maybe actually anti-arousing for me but I'll just watch it out of curiosity. But I genuinely. There are some activities like this. That I watch and they're not there actually are arousing to me even though. Yeah so there's there's actually 3 categories right? There's something I do and I'm aroused by there's something that I don't want to do that I'm aroused by and then there are things that I don't want to do and I'm not aroused by anyway.
  • [21:00] Keith: Right? Okay, um yeah, right, Let's move on. Do you want to watch this porn now is is okay.
  • [20:55] Mike: Yes I think you well this one this one ah is not particularly controversial in terms of it being something most men would want to watch as always. We'll put the um ah url into the. Show notes so people can follow along and we encourage people to do that people when we've pulled our listenership um a very high percentage of people say they enjoy the show more when they follow along with the video we're going to start 2 minutes into it and we will do like a little reaction narration. And Keith will count it down. Are you do you have the video up there. Keith yeah yes.
  • [22:30] Keith: Yeah, I'm ready the title of this video. Well the author of this video is somebody named Jedi mind chick and the subject of this video the the content of this video is hands free gushing fountain. So I'm a little. Apprehensive here. But I'm ready. Are you ready.
  • [22:46] Mike: Yeah I will yeah I am and I wanted just to set people's mind these the the important thing here is the hands free. Not the gushing fountain part actually the the fluid quantities pretty believable. Ah yeah, but yeah, why don't we count it down. Yeah, go ahead.
  • [23:33] Keith: Okay I don't I don't have a way to do audio today. So you're gonna have to narrate it and all right I'm starting in 3 2 1 starting.
  • [23:26] Mike: Okay. All right? So It's a woman. She's by herself. The camera's point is sort of up her crotch. She's moaning and has her arms. She's not touching herself. She's just naked leg spread. She's kind of covering her mouth. Maybe although you don't see her face. She's a very nice Watch. She's wearing but she basically has her arms across her stomach.
  • [24:30] Keith: Yes.
  • [24:16] Mike: Um, she sounds like she's enjoying herself but like nothing's touching her or moving and she's sort of grabbing her stomach. Yeah, now there's some thing that looks like lubrication coming out of her vagina and she's.
  • [24:54] Keith: Wait did something squirt out of her. Yeah.
  • [25:10] Keith: Um, yeah, sort of dribbling I would say.
  • [24:55] Mike: There's more stuff. Okay, more stuff coming out. She's moaning. Yes, she's moaning sort of breathing hard maybe kind of Lamas style and she's breathing of bit harder Now she says she says oh fuck she's breathing you in faster like she's Hyperventilating. She's. Actually sounds like she's hyper ventilating and maybe having some kind of a ah problem now. Although I don't see any contractions of her pubic area. It sounds like she might be having some kind of orgasmic experience. Okay.
  • [26:23] Keith: Ah, yeah I can't tell no I do not want to keep going I don't Okay I don't understand what's even allegedly happening here.
  • [26:06] Mike: Want to keep going or pause it. Okay, let's pause.
  • [26:22] Mike: Okay I can tell you what's allegedly happening. What's allegedly happening is that she is able to either mentally stimulate herself just by thinking about it or some kind of you know, internal Muscle. Ah, tightening and so forth and by the end just so people know her legs were not together so there wasn't some kind of ability to rub her legs around. They were spread and she was on her knees I should have mentioned that but um, yeah, So basically that she's eight I mean.
  • [27:30] Keith: Ah, ah, what is the fluid dripping out dribbling out I should say.
  • [27:33] Mike: Do you want me to be skeptical or not skeptical.
  • [27:57] Keith: Well, okay, all right first off ah we we agree there is a fluid coming out of her vagina for the minute plus we watched this video. Yes.
  • [27:58] Mike: It's pretty viscous. Ah if I'm being skeptical. It looked like maybe she put some lubrication up there and then it slowly came out.
  • [28:30] Keith: I I was wondering if you were going to go so far as to accuse her of a foreign substance. Okay, ah.
  • [28:17] Mike: Yes, it seems possible. It did it all and I have to say that like her her the noises she was making and kind of her manipulation of her body kind of it seemed possible. She was more bearing down than anything just to push something out.
  • [29:13] Keith: Yes, so she is there bearing down is the right expression here. She's she's somehow squeezing or doing something in her her core slash groin area that is forcing this mysterious. Ah.
  • [28:56] Mike: And yeah.
  • [29:07] Mike: Fitted.
  • [29:54] Keith: Fluid out of her body Now. Ah could it just be I don't know it's not okay you and I both agree that there is no mysterious fluid that comes out when a woman quote unquote squirts. Ah, to the extent that that's a thing. It's urine ah to the this video the fluid does not appear to be urine. It's too. It's too viscous now it could be she produces an excessive amount of lubrication and she can somehow control the deployment of it.
  • [30:10] Mike: Right is.
  • [30:46] Mike: That's right.
  • [31:08] Keith: Or it could be some other ah vaginal discharge of some kind. But yeah I'm just.
  • [30:58] Mike: Sure she could be like highly aroused and so I mean although that's that seemed like a very high quantity of Arousal fluid. Um, although yeah.
  • [31:35] Keith: Yes, yes I wish that this camera was zoomed out a bit so that we could see how large the pool underneath her is but we just don't have the the footage here to confirm.
  • [31:33] Mike: I Sort of wish I'm sort of glad it isn't but it would be more. It be good for research I should I should mention by the way that I consumed a video relatively recently where a woman ah was basically grandstanding the fact that like. A lot of times men will think that they've really aroused her but it's actually just Discharge. So. There's some like there's a difference there in the texture Quantity. So forth and the woman can know easily which one it is which actually is something I haven't thought about um yeah.
  • [32:34] Keith: Right.
  • [32:55] Keith: Oh that's interesting.
  • [32:41] Mike: So She's like oh I I happen to know this is discharge and I'm maybe she just like I'm psychologically not that aroused so it couldn't be anything else I guess that makes sense it would be sort of like the female equivalent of not having an erection and like and like something comes out of your penis and you're like well that must not be.. It's not. Anything related to yet you Well yeah, I'm not sure what it would be but it wouldn't be something related to Arousal now I was thinking it might be like an Sti or something in that context. But yeah, the old, the old driptic. Yeah.
  • [33:41] Keith: It's it's not a side of approval. Yeah oh okay, all right I feel like I'm going to pick a porn video for next week and I've been by. Like experience for like our last seven has been repulsion and and I would like to not.
  • [34:02] Mike: That's too bad. This woman was was in good shape. She was sort of thin like she ah and and to be fairly 30 s could be.
  • [34:32] Keith: How old do you think she is yeah I think maybe late 30 s just from the texture of her skin here. Yeah, all right? Can we can we move on all right.
  • [34:32] Mike: Now.
  • [34:41] Mike: Yeah, for sure.
  • [35:09] Keith: Um, boy I don't know where this conversation is going to go but let's do it. This person says traditional dating after the sugar lifestyle. So do people know what sugar babying is do we need to introduce that or can we assume the listener knows okay.
  • [34:59] Mike: Ah.
  • [35:12] Mike: You can give like a 1 sentence as they call it a nut graph.
  • [35:47] Keith: Ah, a sugar baby is is there is it really.
  • [35:29] Mike: It's It's a real term That's a real term. It's ah it. It's a journalist term meaning a paragraph that describes something really quickly and it's something they would like cut paste into an article and it's only it's in a pretty old term but it's ah.
  • [36:17] Keith: Ah, ah, right it? Yeah, it's appropriate for this. Okay, the nut graph is sugar babying is when a typically younger woman dates a typically older man.
  • [36:00] Mike: Pretty nice how it uses the word nut and so it's nicely applicable to our scenario here. So hit us with the nut graph for a sugar baby.
  • [36:56] Keith: And ah in exchange for her generosity and perhaps giving up on some of her typical partner requirements. Ah he finances her in. Variety of ways. It could be a ppm which is pay perme. It could be an allowance which is some amount of money over every week or every month it could be paying for bills. It could be a variety of different things but that that payment is called sugar and so.
  • [37:27] Mike: I think that I think yeah and I think that I would add in that like there are significant I think that a significant element of this can just be.. It doesn't have to be payment. It can also just be that she knows that being in a relationship with a guy that's. Got a bunch more money or whatever more successful or whatever in their career that that like there's it's like an insurance policy kind of thing right? I mean like being in a relationship like that is much better than being in a relationship with someone who's broke you know, just generally yeah.
  • [38:47] Keith: Yeah, although well, okay, all right, let me read this topic and then we'll we'll get into some of the nuance here. So this person the topic is traditional dating after the sugar lifestyle has anyone had any success dating after leaving the lifestyle. However, your standards change. I've been in a traditional relationship for quite some time now. But I find myself missing the benefits of being a sugar baby I was out at dinner with my boyfriend last night and he complained about the cost of a glass of wine I ordered my meal was $25 in total I used to date men who would happily order half the menu for me at high-end places I never had to stress about money budgeting etc I could travel more. Obviously I have a concern with my boyfriend that I never had in any of my arrangements I went a family one day. So that's why I stopped sugar dating. It's just hard not to compare some aspects of a relationship. Yeah I mean once you've tasted the filet menion and it's hard to go back to the. Ah.
  • [39:58] Mike: Yeah.
  • [40:40] Keith: Pork chop or whatever I I think.
  • [40:21] Mike: Well yeah, go on.
  • [40:52] Keith: Ah, Well, what is it that you and I have debated about this offline a lot. But what are the drawbacks of dating older men for for men. The drawback of dating an older woman is that she's less attractive in general. And I don't think women I think a lot of women are perfectly attracted to much older men and if you're doing some sort of family planning then sure there's some sort of long-term drawback. But what do you view? the drawbacks. Other than that.
  • [41:38] Mike: Well I mean I think that it's going to depend on the man right? I mean there are plenty of men who are either not very successful financially or or otherwise and there are also plenty of men who just don't want to do anything and so then a drawback would be like you don't want to just be stuck in some. House in some town that's kind of crappy with some guy that's a lot older than you I mean there definitely are downsides but that's not sort of relevant here right? Well but I mean I think there's also a lifestyle element right? It's sugar lifestyle forum on Reddit right? There's the sugar and the lifestyle or maybe the sugar is the lifestyle.
  • [42:44] Keith: Well, that's what the sugar's for.
  • [43:04] Keith: Yeah, but well yeah.
  • [42:54] Mike: It's I I mean it's going to depend on the woman also. But ah what I mean so there. Yeah, there are there are drawbacks I Also don't agree that the only drawback for the man of dating a woman who's older is just the fact that she's older like in terms of her looks like I Also think she's going to be yeah I mean like men.
  • [43:53] Keith: Um.
  • [43:32] Mike: A lot of men don't want to date someone who is oriented toward having kids and all this kind of state. You know, kind of settling down and so I think a lot of the sugar lifestyle for men revolves around a guy wanting. Yeah basically serialally dating 20 somethings because he wants to to not do that and actually that. Leads into this thing that I was going to bring up ah regarding Leonardo Dicaprio ah so yeah, so I mean like there. Well I've been I was introduced to this um swedish author who wrote.
  • [44:47] Keith: Okay, hit me.
  • [44:46] Mike: Ah, it's actually like one of these like long firm graphic novel comic books and it has like a set of panels in it about it sort of takes off from this question of like what's going on with this guy like why does he date 20 somethings again and again and her conclusion is that he's not right? Why is he? why does he? anybody? it's it's kind of this amusing. Ah basically it's this. Um.
  • [45:32] Keith: Leonardo Dicaprio ok yeah
  • [45:26] Mike: Can imagine a graphic novel and it's like him and he always looks the same and then he's dating a different woman each time but they and they look slightly different but basically the same type and she concludes. Yeah, go ahead.
  • [45:56] Keith: Right? Yeah for the hold on hold on hold on so for listeners who don't know Leonardo Dicapri famously dates women in their early twenty s and yeah, there's like this meme that as soon as they turn 23 he breaks up with them and moves on to the next one and
  • [46:06] Mike: Right.
  • [46:35] Keith: Ah I don't know how old he is. He's got to be ah, he's 47
  • [46:24] Mike: He's in his forty s for sure. Okay, Ah yeah, and I mean the the conclusion this author generally drawn I think by feminists is that he's narcissistic. But I'm not sure that's exactly right? like what? What do you?? What? what? do you think is going on there. Like what's your intuition.
  • [47:23] Keith: Um, well I don't know enough about Leotard or Dicaprio to know for sure but given a arbitrary 47 year old dating an arbitrary 22 year old. Ah I think. He probably finds I don't know maybe he likes having like an almost father daughter relationship where she sort of worships him. Um, although yeah, that's getting toward the narcissism thing. Ah.
  • [48:04] Mike: He's but he's been. It's I mean to be fair, it's not 1 relationship. It's like a series of them and he's been doing it since he was whatever a I mean basically that age so it's not ah new in terms of his ah target audience as it were and.
  • [48:33] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [48:38] Mike: Ah, there's a type right? So in other words, there's he could date one of them longer. But he's switching them every so often I don't know let's just say it's once a year or something which is probably directionally right and also.
  • [49:24] Keith: M.
  • [49:11] Mike: Ah point I would make is that this isn't just Leonardo Dicaprio like this is a pretty basic thing that a lot of men would do if they were positioned in a way to do it right? This isn't right? This is a desire that men have and so I think I think the core question is to broaden it out from him like what's what's behind that is it narcissism or is it something else I mean.
  • [49:49] Keith: Yes.
  • [49:50] Mike: You want to do this right.
  • [50:13] Keith: I think I can imagine a life like this being satisfying. Yes you you Forego other things but so set aside for a moment why doing this might not be a good strategy. The reasons why it might be a good strategy is.
  • [50:02] Mike: And why is that.
  • [50:19] Mike: Okay.
  • [50:51] Keith: I Think one of the issues with dating somebody who's much your junior is that they get boring. They don't have much to offer you intellectually their worldview is less informed than yours is and that gets frustrating but it gets frustrating after some period of time and so.
  • [51:01] Mike: Right.
  • [51:29] Keith: When you constantly are entering into new relationships. There's sort of this honeymoon period that lasts a while and probably lasts and especially a long while with a 22 year old model just because the the physical aspects are are pretty entertaining and if you're Leonardo Dicaprio most of your. Experiences are probably you know world travel and doing really fun things and so the settling in and development of little resentments might not come for say a year or so and so he just keeps getting to that point and then moves on.
  • [52:19] Mike: Right? So I agree with that. So I mean essentially basically there are 2 things that are at play here and I actually think neither of them I actually think neither of them is narcissism I think that the feminist read on this I guess I should call it like a radical feminist read is um, is wrong. It's off base. It's interesting.
  • [53:20] Keith: Can you steal man. Can you steal man her case really quickly with a nutcrack or nut graph What it's called.
  • [52:58] Mike: And I'll say more about that in a second but it but it's ah.
  • [53:14] Mike: Nut graph. Yeah, her case would basically be that he short It's actually useful to do that. Her case would be that ah she he doesn't view them as real people that essentially what he wants to do is Date. He doesn't really want to date anyone. He just wants to be with himself and he wants to have sex with a ah kind of carousel of attractive sex robots who mirror back who he is to himself both so we can show off to his friends and to society at large look what I did.
  • [54:37] Keith: Who.
  • [54:23] Mike: And also so that he is never confronted with anybody who disagrees he doesn't want to have a friend a female friend that disagrees with his worldview. He just wants to remain in his worldview this is again I'm steel manning the the sort of feminist critique here I don't think okay go on. Yeah.
  • [54:58] Keith: Right? Okay, yes, okay so he dates these women because they are maximally agreeable and don't make don't challenge him in any way. Okay.
  • [55:02] Mike: Right? And I don't yeah so so along along those lines. Um another style of video that I've encountered recently that I thought was interesting is and you've probably seen things like this as well is women talking about. The lengths they go to at the beginning of a relationship with men to fit into this ah mold basically to appear like a and I guess agreeable. But really, it's highly attractive Sex Robot for the man so that he won't abandon her and of course. This Ah, at least arguably has been made harder for women because because women make as much money as men or you can argue about that that exactly what the the pay gap is there. Ah, it's become. Harder and harder for a woman who's reasonably successful and to find a man that she is interested in because she doesn't want to date down right? So women are looking for this unicorn of a guy and so then when they find a guy that they find compelling they have to put on this veneer of perfection and an example of that is I've so. Over the last week saw a couple of videos of women describing the insane routines they go through to not poop in front of the guy ah in the first few days. So For example, a woman who she was with a guy I Forget exactly where his apartment her apartment or I guess I think was in a house and.
  • [57:54] Keith: Um.
  • [58:01] Mike: The bathroom that had the toilet was sort of near where they were but there was another bathroom that I think was like a half bath or maybe it wasn't even a bathroom maybe a laundry room or something and she actually went up there and pooped in a bag and then like threw it away later she like tied it up and hid it in a closet and I don't know what she did for toilet paper but and let's not get into the exact details here.
  • [58:26] Keith: Um, who. Yeah.
  • [58:57] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah.
  • [58:41] Mike: And then another woman similar situation. She woke up the morning after a date she was expecting that it was Saturday morning she was expecting to cuddle or something like that for a few hours but she realized she was going to have to poop and so then she made up some excuse and like ran out of his apartment. He sort of chased her and so forth, but like she's just like I have to go now is a little bit like Cinderella with the.
  • [59:36] Keith: Right? The carriage turning back into a pumpkin.
  • [59:20] Mike: You know oh ever you know the exactly and so she ran away. Um, but this is all around and maybe you've encountered stories like this as Well. This is around like women trying to fit into this mold of perfection that that a feminist would view as narcissism but I'm not sure that's right I think. But anyway, what are your thoughts on that.
  • [01:00:19] Keith: Well, that was a 5 minute long screed there. So I'm not sure exactly what to respond to but a few things are look men ah behave performatively in the early days of dating too. They're much more chivalrous. They probably.
  • [01:00:32] Mike: True.
  • [01:00:58] Keith: Don't say things that they you know know will be controversial and they they pay for everything at least the smart ones do and you know so there's there's some of that going on. I guess what you're saying is these women who Leo Leo is ah pursuing and I don't even know if he has to pursue pointing at and saying you're next ah are doing some sort of performance.
  • [01:01:33] Mike: Right.
  • [01:02:10] Keith: As well, right? like they're trying to be as perfect for Leo as they possibly can.
  • [01:01:56] Mike: Well I mean I think that like there's a signaling mechanism there I think that a feminist would say well it's not those women in particular, it's that kind of all women in society are doing this in order to portray a certain thing now. Actually I think the situation with Leo. My my interpretation would be kind of different. Yeah, it would be that I think that you're right that he's pursuing basically youth and variety and also he's why so why is he not staying with a woman for 5 years I mean they're still pretty young after 5 years It's because of the thing you said which is he doesn't want to like actually deal with them as a person and so he just sort of. Moves on and maybe that's narcissism I think it's just they don't fit into what he's trying to do which is just have ah variety and have fun. Basically he wants to keep the fun part of the relationship going and the thing I would say is that they're they're participating as well and it's actually kind of this sugar dating type situation where they have a thing they're getting what they're getting is to. Raise their fame status by being with this guy right? and they don't yeah.
  • [01:04:16] Keith: Yeah, the analogy to sugar dating is is is basically perfect right? like they probably wouldn't choose a increasingly fat 47 year old man as a sexual partner unless. There was some sort of benefit being bestowed upon them and the thing that Leo gives is if if he's not outright sugaring is where where sugar is cash. The thing they get is is fame and notoriety which translates to cash, especially when you're dating models and starlets right? like that's.
  • [01:04:30] Mike: Right says.
  • [01:05:28] Keith: That's worth more than money to them.
  • [01:05:05] Mike: Yeah, So I think basically they I think that the the there's much more in common the sugar dating thing has much more in common with just traditional ah traditional dating patterns of basically yeah, men men have a thing they want. Women have a thing they want and you're just finding new ways for people to come together I Actually think that sugar dating is probably going to become much more common in the future and I think that people who like these sort of feminist people who actually the thing I Want to say about the feminist critique is I think that they are sort of bordering because they're basically trying to make it so it's all. The man doing something terrible and the woman not participating I think they're bordering on being a female equivalent of incels here where they're they're ah yeah, they're basically like just trying to try attribute all the negative qualities to the other side whereas I think it's much more even handed than that I think that women in these sugaring situations pretty much know. Yeah, they know what they're doing.
  • [01:06:50] Keith: Um.
  • [01:06:59] Mike: Like they and they're they're fine with it because actually it resembles a more traditional mindset of of um, a relationship and they're just sort of skipping the queue. They've you know it's like look I'm super attractive I'm young and I'm going to just jump ahead. And use this methodology to do that.
  • [01:07:58] Keith: Why shouldn't all young women do that like why should they date young men ever.
  • [01:07:52] Mike: Yeah I mean I think they probably shouldn't and they're they're sort of historical. This is historically like kind of a normal thing. The notion that a woman would date like 5 to 10 years older than her is like actually fairly normal. You basically give young men time to actually do something and then yeah I mean and and yeah, and so.
  • [01:08:44] Keith: Right.
  • [01:08:30] Mike: A man who's maybe done something might be 30 that might be an age when you expect a man to have done something ah and but the reality is that women are the most attractive when they're like 20 or something right? So then it makes sense that you basically would pair that way and it's really not harmful. Ah, in fact, actually it's good for the children that you might have right.
  • [01:09:30] Keith: Sure up to a certain age up to a certain age gap. Yeah.
  • [01:09:08] Mike: Because the man is better able to provide and the woman is at the ideal age. Yeah right? And so I think I don't yeah actually I think that it probably is adaptive to simply do that And yes, it means that very young men same men in their teens and 20 s would be very lonely. But maybe that's good. It like and it causes them to go out and do something Maybe maybe the do thing they do is be a terrorist. But yeah.
  • [01:10:10] Keith: So let's say fine. Let's say that you've been dating older men you know throughout your college years and now you're 27 and you want to start getting serious about having a family. You could imagine the sort of dilemma this woman describes which is she's been. You know sugaring for a long time. She's been dating lots of well-seasoned older men who bestow upon her wealth and manners and guidance and mentorship and. You know respect and these sorts of things and now she has to date. You know some 27 year old tech bro or finance guy or whatever who ah is a little rough around the edges including in in her case. Not being nearly as fiscally generous as some of the previous people. She's dated like I I can imagine that being a bit of a a bit of a cliff that you have to jump off. That's not that fun. Um.
  • [01:12:04] Mike: Well not just that. But if she does find a guy who's kind of willing to be more generous or behave more like her previous partners. Ah, she's running the issue of him trading her in for someone younger it's rough. How.
  • [01:12:57] Keith: Right? Yeah, you end up in a hamster wheel right? Yeah, all right? all right? Let's move on. Um, here's something that I don't think we've discussed before and.
  • [01:12:41] Mike: I Mean you have to strike while the irons hot right? I think that's common. Yeah, so.
  • [01:13:32] Keith: This person says can we discuss hair pulling not just the act but the art I've experienced too many lovers who pull and yank at hair as if they are toddlers hair pulling is an art and must be taught and done correctly. Maybe it's just me but I've had people just yank my hair and pull it at my ponytail and it aggravates me. Be honest I personally didn't even know what it truly was like to actually have your hair quote unquote pulled until I was properly shown a slide up the back up the neck right into the naep or off the side and a deep thrust towards your lover just hits different Once you go there, You never come back anyone agree or some people. Into the yanking and pulling from the ends.
  • [01:14:25] Mike: Ah, at first I wasn't sure if you meant I guess I'm kidding but I thought at first I was going to say something like is this pubic hair pulling or head hair pulling which made me think by the way that when I was very young like teenager I mean if you pull on your pubic hair does it like say above your penis.
  • [01:15:02] Keith: Right? right? and.
  • [01:15:24] Keith: Ah.
  • [01:15:05] Mike: Not not on your balls but on like the people care above your penis like pull on it reasonably hard does that hurt like badly. Yeah, it's kind of whatever so I had this experience I think a couple times like of thinking that was kind of playful.
  • [01:15:36] Keith: Ah I don't think it hurts badly now. Yeah.
  • [01:16:00] Keith: Ah, aha.
  • [01:15:42] Mike: And being with a woman and her being like this is the most painful thing I've ever experienced or really you know having it be really extremely painful. Have you ever had this experience with a woman.
  • [01:16:17] Keith: I haven't tried what for starters, most of your dating came over a decade ago and so ah, particularly recently but women just don't have pub care down there anymore on on average and so there's nothing.
  • [01:16:12] Mike: Right.
  • [01:16:29] Mike: So it would actually be difficult to run this experiment. Yeah I thought of that as I was saying it. Okay.
  • [01:16:56] Keith: To pull right? right? right? Ah, but to the extent that I have encountered women with with enough Pb care to pull. No I have not tried this.
  • [01:16:53] Mike: All right? Let's talk about the hair pulling then the head hair pulling.
  • [01:17:22] Keith: Okay I don't okay, first off, is it the whole point of hair pulling to be some sort of dominant to act right? like caring about the way that she is responding to your hair pulling is like the opposite of the. Ah, the intent of the act which is to show that you don't care right? like you're pulling their hair because you're you're making them submissive and so I'm a little bit confused here and then she goes on to describe this. Ah, slide up the back up the neck right into the naep or off the side and a deep thrust towards your lover just hits her and so I don't even know exactly what she's describing there. It sounds like she's describing a neck massage while someone penetrates her like.
  • [01:18:27] Mike: Oh I imagine that like he's sort of gathering her hair but he's pulling it. He's grabbing it near the root of the hair not at the end of the hair which makes sense because if you grab it at the end of the hair. You're just going to pull out a handful of it because you'll get like the you'll actually break the hairs and you'll like pull out you won't.
  • [01:19:07] Keith: Ah.
  • [01:19:23] Keith: Okay.
  • [01:19:05] Mike: Yeah, you you know what? I'm talking about right? if you grab it at the root like you won't get none none will basically none will come out if you do that? yes.
  • [01:19:36] Keith: I see so you're distributing the force over more hair follicles and so it feels less painful. Ah.
  • [01:19:29] Mike: Also she what she's looking for is some kind of closeness. So let's say her hair is two feet long if you if you if you arrange your hair pulling so that you are two feet away from her head. That's a lot less proximity than if you hold her hair right next to her head so she can feel the warmth or the.
  • [01:20:01] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [01:20:04] Mike: Strength of your hand like it makes sense to me that like yeah if you if you do it far enough away. It just feels like it's sort of strange. It's like a leash.
  • [01:20:38] Keith: Well no, it's not it's it is. It's like a leash. It's okay first off I'm not a hair pulling person I realize that maybe sounding like that as I get into this spiel here. But I think yeah hair pulling is meant to be at least performatively.
  • [01:20:37] Mike: Yeah, like.
  • [01:21:18] Keith: A bit of a dominant act right? Like you're sort of guiding or commanding the woman's hair by by pulling on it and so this notion of trying to lower the force applied or make it more of a massage or make it more.
  • [01:20:56] Mike: Yes, like.
  • [01:21:51] Keith: A closeness thing I think she's sort of missing the point right? There are ways to get that from sex and being caressed maybe with a bit of aggression on your on your head is 1 thing but hair pulling is something else. The the first comment here is the the woman says. Ah, different woman on the opposite end the number of times I've asked to do to pull my hair only to have him loosely hold. It know my guy I want you to show me who's boss for the next few minutes please and thank you I think that that second woman's understanding of what hair polling is for is better than the first woman's.
  • [01:22:30] Mike: Sure Yeah, it's so it's so interesting somebody saying it's like I want you to pull my hair. You do it? No, you're doing it wrong wait. It's like who's dominant here. It's good.
  • [01:23:18] Keith: Right? Exactly like she or she is complaining that the person's not being you know I agree she's she's confused. She's not she's oh the commenter. Well ok.
  • [01:23:04] Mike: Oh no, I'm complaining about the commenter I'm claiming that the commenter. Also yeah. Yeah, because it's the same thing. It's the same thing. She's basically telling the guy that his dominance is wrong which means she's being dominant. It's just kind of funny.
  • [01:23:55] Keith: Well I guess yeah, she wants him to be more dominant and her complaint about that is indeed some light dominated itself.
  • [01:23:49] Mike: I Don't actually know I mean what it's an interesting question like what could a woman do So you're a woman you want to be submissive I guess I guess the the solution to all of these sites of things is going to be have a conversation about it outside of this. You know when you're when there's no Arousal present.
  • [01:24:39] Keith: I Don't know if that's true though I don't know if that's true like because look the whole point that look I don't understand dominant Slash Submissive play very well. But I think the general notion is for there to be a little bit of loss of control.
  • [01:24:35] Mike: Really.
  • [01:24:56] Mike: Right? right.
  • [01:25:19] Keith: Or fear and you need to put up guardrails so that that doesn't get abused. But yeah, communicating specifically how hard they should pull your hair would make it so that maybe you need them to actually pull it a bit harder than that so that you're getting to that edge like and yeah, it's.
  • [01:25:32] Mike: Well, that's the purpose of of a that's the purpose of a safe word but I mean I think you know right? because then you you do have some way to express like that you've reached a limit but you ah you can let it go up to that edge without necessarily a problem.
  • [01:25:58] Keith: The whole thing is sort of.
  • [01:26:04] Mike: But it's still. There's you already have this issue that once you are in the situation. It's very difficult to once you're having sex with someone if you want to be submissive and you're having sex. It's pretty hard to then say dominate me because by just saying that you've taken charge.
  • [01:26:42] Keith: Ah.
  • [01:26:55] Keith: Right? fright.
  • [01:26:37] Mike: Was yeah so you have to basically say that at some other time you have to like take the guy aside when you're just hanging out and be like just so you know like I want you to do this and then you have to kind of hope that they do it right? It has to they have you have to detach them otherwise it kind of is a buzzkill I think.
  • [01:27:25] Keith: Okay, yeah, that sounds right, Let's move On. Um, let's see here. This person says I know it's better to clean after sex. But I can't stop falling asleep This only happens at night. But but that's when we do it most. Know after he finishes I should go to the bathroom and clean and it's healthier that way. But every time I just feel so cozy and on an emotional high I just snuggle into him and fall Asleep. How risky is it. Nothing has happened yet but will it inevitably Happen. So The thing the it that she's referring to is if somebody comes inside of you. Or even if they're using a condom. Ah I think some bacteria gets into your vagina and a lot of people get Uti's or even more serious complications from that. Ah and that can be mitigated by peeing after you've had sex.
  • [01:28:50] Mike: It's not in you. It's not in your vagina. It's it's weirder than that right? It's that you're rubbing against their urethra right? I mean like.
  • [01:29:22] Keith: Ok sure you're to you to put you're depositing bacteria. That's that's the mechanism for getting a uti I think there's other things you can get. But.
  • [01:29:15] Mike: That's right? Yeah, but I mean like imagine it's something you you could think about like imagine if imagine if this is what this is what it's like for a girl right? imagine if during sex somebody sort of. Rubbed something against the tip of your penis repeatedly. Ah right? I mean like and thus depositing things inside of it I mean that's part of what's going on there. It's pretty intrusive and so yeah I mean you want to? yeah.
  • [01:30:19] Keith: Aha.
  • [01:30:26] Keith: I mean you sort of get that Anyway, right? like the tip of your penis when it's not in a condom is constantly getting rubbed I think I think the mechanism for going up. The urethra is just easier for women somehow.
  • [01:30:26] Mike: I guess.
  • [01:30:41] Mike: That's true I mean it's usually it feels a little bit different. It feels a little bit different when it's ah when it's the woman because it's more like done to her body or something but it's a fair point the like yes certainly I mean if ah if a woman. Was blowing you.. For example, she could deposit all kinds of stuff in your urethra without you knowing it and that could become a problem. Yeah.
  • [01:31:40] Keith: Sure I mean I've seen a whole range of post-sex Behavior I've seen women who basically sprint to the bathroom as soon as I've nutted and I've seen women who yeah just roll you know roll over curl up on me and then fall asleep.
  • [01:31:54] Mike: What percentage of women have you been with who kind of lie on their back and then dip fingers in their vagina and taste it out of there.
  • [01:32:20] Keith: And.
  • [01:32:34] Keith: Ah, small small percentage. Ah yeah I have had that. Um, yeah I've had it I've had I mean I've had.
  • [01:32:20] Mike: Have you had that you could you be more specific I was making that up like it was a crazy thing to have happened. You're saying it happened.
  • [01:33:13] Keith: And nobody' but have dated for like any material amount of time does anything strange I don't know if that's strange. It's performative. Ok I okay fairly recently more than a year ago but less than 5 Ah.
  • [01:33:02] Mike: I haven't decided if this is strange or hot yet I'm waiting since it's I know it would be gross at the time because you'd be postnet clarity but go on. Yeah.
  • [01:33:51] Keith: And went on a few dates with this person who ah after sex would ah so yeah, well, whatever we were having sex without a condom We. We both were tested and after sex. Yeah, she would um, ah. Stick her finger inside of herself and then smear my semen on her body and ah she.
  • [01:34:16] Mike: Any specific parts that she favored.
  • [01:34:48] Keith: Yes, you asked the answer no question.
  • [01:34:29] Mike: Go on face breasts one I'm okay I can I mean I can imagine it. It was it or erotic parts of her body or just like her toes or something.
  • [01:35:11] Keith: I Really this is going to make for good radio. But I really don't want to do this. She had um, some dry patches on her skin I don't know if it was psoriasis or something else, but she claimed.
  • [01:35:07] Mike: Our Lord space.
  • [01:35:43] Keith: But the concoction of Myce and combined with you know her vaginal juices was ah was was good for said dry patches.
  • [01:35:35] Mike: Okay, that's not true I'm sure it could it could as easily do harm as good I'm sure. Okay, so she would busy her herself did you find that irritating. Yeah.
  • [01:36:11] Keith: Like it. It could be a mild lubricant or boisterurize or I don't know I have no idea I've yes we had sex 2 or maybe 3 times. Yeah was it was intolerable.
  • [01:36:15] Mike: Yeah, would she take a shower after that I hope she how she's Christ that would be like ah if you yeah you she like you get up to go to the bathroom and then she she's secreted it.
  • [01:36:48] Keith: No, she thought that this was some sort of balm that overnight was going to fix her skin issues.
  • [01:36:52] Mike: Throughout her body. You don't know where she put it. Ah I So anyway, okay go on anything else I would it doesn't matter so you have had a woman do that I was imagining her actually putting in her mouth which is even further weird or unusual. You do is now my favorite.
  • [01:37:22] Keith: Yeah I mean.
  • [01:37:35] Keith: You see that in porn a lot.
  • [01:37:25] Mike: My favorite I'm not sure what my favorite is I think I think I just want it to go away. So I want it to which is funny because then you don't know if he nutted but I think I'm okay with that with the potential that I've been tricked.
  • [01:38:10] Keith: Yeah I mean in porn. The reason why it's not typically deposited in the vaginas because you can't see it you You don't see the money shot. It's called a money shot because you're supposed to see the the money the semen and so and.
  • [01:38:13] Mike: I Thought it was the money shot because that's what he got paid for. He got paid to produce a semen.
  • [01:38:45] Keith: I don't think he's getting paid for the orgasm. First off I don't think male porn stars. Get paid much. Ah, technically, but definitely in spirit. Um, yeah, they but I'm tish. Yeah, nice nice job okay all right we have time for 1 more topic here.
  • [01:38:37] Mike: That's true. Oh. It's a hard job. Yeah, no, That's a hard job.
  • [01:39:24] Keith: Think Um, okay, let's do this one? Oh sorry, the post was deleted by the person who originally posted it so I was so heartbreaking when that happened this topic was got invited to my friend's house and she asked if I would have sex with her I think I can still. Remember the the gist of this um he was Young. He was 20 or something and he had this sort of longtime friend and they had slowly you know, walked out telling each other that they had a crush on each other.
  • [01:39:42] Mike: All right.
  • [01:40:42] Keith: And then he said something like oh if I had condoms would you have sex with me and you know she sort of sheepishly said yes and then she texted him a picture of condoms and said well and then he posted this thing like what should I do should I have sex with my friend and. The reason why I wanted to bring this up I mean that story was even more painful reading his specific writing of it than the way I Just told it just because I don't remember having insecurities like like that child does but is there any situation where you would advise people not to be sexually. Explorative like maybe he'd lose a friend or whatever. But I think generally if your friend is attracted to you. The friendship is already sort of colored by that thing and so in this situation I would say go for it but just generally I feel like people should if some sort of weird.
  • [01:41:41] Mike: I think I think there is.
  • [01:42:38] Keith: But obviously safety is insured experience ah becomes available to you and you're interested in trying why? not.
  • [01:42:26] Mike: I think that ah I mean first of all, there's like it's space. So it's such a standard thing to say that it's it's almost like a meme that women who are friends with men know in the back of their mind that they could convert those friendships into sexual immediately.
  • [01:43:25] Keith: Yeah I mean it depends a bit on the relative attractiveness levels but women should assume in all circumstances that they have absolutely been vetted for ah sexual viability and.
  • [01:43:05] Mike: Typically right.
  • [01:43:19] Mike: That's true.
  • [01:44:05] Keith: Ah, if they're even remotely attractive that their male friends have considered it.
  • [01:43:52] Mike: I mean I had so I had an experience that's on point here I worked in an office a number of years ago and there was a woman who she so she was okay, attractive like she was all right looking. She was a little ah she wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed. Mentally, but she was a pretty ah attractive thin like you know so it was attracted to her I guess but the problem was that she had dated. She had dated 2 of the guys in the office and so already it engaged like we discussed this I think last episode it engaged my like sort of.
  • [01:45:12] Keith: Earth.
  • [01:45:07] Mike: Lack of desire to kind of follow people who I knew in that vein but also ah they didn't speak that highly of her. Ah, basically like did she's kind of an idiot so on and so forth which she probably was on some level.
  • [01:46:02] Keith: Um, this is this is.
  • [01:45:45] Mike: And so I didn't want to be I just was like oh this would be embarrassing if like I entered into any sort of relationship with her. Um, but she was very attracted to me and like she would ah she made it very obvious would hang around me and ah like you know if I was if I I guess in retrospect if I stayed late.
  • [01:46:28] Keith: Ah.
  • [01:46:42] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  • [01:46:21] Mike: The office she would stay late on purpose I mean she didn't she probably just would walk home or whatever she didn't this was in ah a city so she could walk home. It wasn't like she had anywhere to be anyway dot that da da the end of the story is that like she definitely was able to give me a blow. Like she just basically waited around and it was yeah I eventually I mean because he was just sort of sitting there one evening and I was like okay like get under the desk like go ahead. Yeah yeah, definitely like I didn't I didn't want to but I was but at some point you know I mean like look.
  • [01:47:22] Keith: Yeah, ah you were giving her a gift.
  • [01:47:26] Mike: All she has to do is sort of be around at the time you would naturally masturbate and you're kind of like Hm like all right and it was definitely a mistake and like God like yeah I mean it it created it created an annoying various annoying situations because of course she ah assumed that we were. Now Emotionally connected and like left notes on my desk and bullshit like all this bullshit started happening. Um you know so and which is what I would have predicted like and then I had to sort of extricate myself clumsily from that.
  • [01:48:20] Keith: Um, ah okay.
  • [01:48:24] Mike: Ah, but the point being like even a situation where I was pretty uninterested like she was able to basically just play the long game and hang around and eventually she I guess got what she would what she was hoping of course was that she would do that and then enter into some sort of relationship I assume she didn't just want my semen in her mouth.
  • [01:49:06] Keith: Right? right? Yeah yeah, okay I was thinking about something a little bit. Yeah, okay, so the friends slash coworkers thing is is one discussion I was thinking about. Okay I was at a wedding once and ah at the rehearsal dinner. There was this cute blonde and I talked to her for most of the evening and I felt some intentionality and flirting coming from her. Ah and. The wedding was the next day so I wasn't in any rush to seal the deal I thought the next day would be a better opportunity anyway and so the wedding comes and the next morning I think there was like it was at a winery or something and so I guess it was the next afternoon there was some wine tasting before the wedding anyway. Her husband was there and ah yeah, right? and she she had mentioned him zero I don't think it was husband they but they'd been dating for like 3 years or something among long term boyfriend. So anyway, I'm like our I well I guess i.
  • [01:50:40] Mike: The husband of the woman who had the intentionality yikes.
  • [01:51:37] Keith: Missed the opportunity or misread or something and then after the wedding wedding at the reception. The man came over and asked quite awkwardly actually but he said that his partner was attracted to me and that. Ah, they'd like to invite me back for what was obviously a threesome to their bedroom. Yeah I think I probably could have set things up there. However I wanted I may have even been able to set up a situation where he was just watching but.
  • [01:52:00] Mike: Or an mmf or Mfm Maybe yeah.
  • [01:52:56] Keith: Did not take this opportunity and my thought at the time was oh this is going to be sort of awkward and I don't know how I'll feel after but in retrospect I should have just gone for it like there's there's no way I was going to have an mmf situation. Um. Not interested in that but experiencing a sort of low downside. Ah experience where yes, something that makes me a little bit uncomfortable might be worth trying just to find out if it makes me very uncomfortable.
  • [01:53:15] Mike: Um, let me but okay.
  • [01:53:41] Mike: Okay, so let's I want to just play this forward a minute I want to play this forward. So let's say that you did say yes to that you had said yes to it and but you said the ground rules are you can watch. But I'm going to fuck your girlfriend and you you just have to sit in this chair. Okay.
  • [01:54:09] Keith: There's some information there. Ah.
  • [01:54:29] Keith: Yeah, no.
  • [01:54:17] Mike: He says fine and he's sitting there. He's not recording you or anything. It's fine and you you start doing it and then you look over at some point and he's got his dick out. What would you do? So he's just beating off we What would you do though.
  • [01:54:59] Keith: Well I think I wouldn't like that and that's the sort of discomfort discomforting things I was worrying about when I declined this opportunity at the time.
  • [01:54:57] Mike: What if what if he just what if he just said Okay I'll just sit here I won't beat off or anything but I want to be able to see your asshole while you fuck her would you be like okay I just want to see that butthole.
  • [01:55:48] Keith: I'm not sure if I could I mean I should be able to abstract that away intellectualize that away in my mind like who cares what this guy I'm never going to see again thinks about my butthole. But.
  • [01:55:42] Mike: Ah.
  • [01:56:15] Keith: I Don't think I could I think I would be like yeah no, that's not I don't feel comfortable with that.
  • [01:55:58] Mike: I think I would be worried I think I would be worried genuinely that if there was a guy sitting in a chair even not beating off watching me that I wouldn't be able to perform or something I think I'd be worried that like somehow it wouldn't work.
  • [01:56:39] Keith: Um, yeah, but I would worry about that as well. In fact, I'm sure I did but it was a free lesson right? like I would never see these people again right? like it would is it worth getting over my.
  • [01:56:40] Mike: That's true.
  • [01:57:11] Keith: You you know concerns and insecurities in order to get a little bit of information and I think people generally err on the wrong side of this they should err on the more adventurous side.
  • [01:56:54] Mike: Ah, yeah, do you think that you would pre pull you like if you were giving some advice I think my advice to you if you were in this situation if you like had called me I would have said ah you should have like a contingency plan So know what you're going to do if his cock comes out.
  • [01:57:49] Keith: Right? Yeah flow chart. Yeah.
  • [01:57:31] Mike: Know what you're going to do if he moves toward you with his cock. Yeah, just a little flowcharge just you know you've preplanned like whether you stand up and just tell him to stop or whatever it is because the I just think that in the back Of. I Have seen a lot of like cuckold stuff where guys just apparently want to watch but I think in the back of their minds. They want to maybe put their dick in your ass. Yeah so.
  • [01:58:24] Keith: Yeah, yeah I would not be surprised if moving ah to the left on the homosexual heterosexual scale strongly correlates with ah.
  • [01:58:31] Mike: Right? Yeah and this isn't a thing that comes up most of the time for men who are having sex but actually when you're on top of a woman fucking her. You're actually pretty vulnerable as a man right? I mean somebody could come behind you and.
  • [01:59:02] Keith: Enjoying Cuck holding.
  • [01:59:22] Keith: Vulnerable to being sodomized you mean? yeah, that's true.
  • [01:59:10] Mike: Yes, I mean you're just not. You're not in any position to defend yourself I mean she's kind of yeah, you're kind of occupied and also like mentally this would be the other thing is like there's some he's like look just lick the tip or something he just and you're so aroused like my goodness. Yeah.
  • [01:59:54] Keith: Yeah, right, right? But let's say he was able to get me to do that as I sit here in in our chair. Yeah intellectually I think there's just no way I would ever do that. But you know if.
  • [01:59:47] Mike: To lick the tip.
  • [01:59:59] Mike: I Don't think so either. Yeah.
  • [02:00:27] Keith: The you know the hottest person in the world is sitting there. You know waiting for me to fuck them and all I have to do is go through this one gate you know maybe I would I don't know.
  • [02:00:20] Mike: I think that they were probably surprised when you said no I think that most men would say yes to that proposition. Yeah I mean being the other man I mean like keep in mind this like this actually makes me kind of excited.
  • [02:00:57] Keith: Yeah, yeah I think so too.
  • [02:00:55] Mike: Ah, is the griefing possibility because while I don't want to interact with another man in a gay way if I did I might destroy their relationship and I like that because we know that in the um mf situation most frequently that second guy can just destroy the first guy.
  • [02:01:30] Keith: Um.
  • [02:01:44] Keith: Right? right.
  • [02:01:27] Mike: Course I wouldn't want it. But if if I know that if I put my dick up his ass. That's the end of their relationship probably but then the downside. So the upside is I'm I'm getting to troll or grief them. The downside is that I'm having to anally have sex with a man. So it's tricky but but getting to grief them is yeah.
  • [02:01:58] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [02:02:16] Keith: Yeah I think I would want to I would want to avoid that deadside. There are other forms of compensation that I would accept for being forced to have sex with a man but I don't think ah griefing a couple that I barely know. Is is enough to.
  • [02:02:28] Mike: Yeah, the thing one thing I wanted to say before we close on this topic. So it's a topic here was this woman who basically like told her male friend or whatever they they had acknowledged right? I think that once that happens even if you don't have sex. The relationship is the friendship.
  • [02:02:58] Keith: Who.
  • [02:03:11] Keith: That she was down.
  • [02:03:24] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's lots of interesting conversations to be had about friends and coworkers. But we are out of time so that'll do it for episode 66 of your mileage may vary.
  • [02:03:07] Mike: Is era of a era of a complete changed just acknowledging it either way so is is tricky.
  • [02:03:58] Keith: Famously pay $10 for any feedback we receive so to get that free sweet cash simply send us feedback to at Ymmvpod on Twitter or by email at Ymmv Pod At http://gmail.com thanks for listening and we look forward to having you join us next time bye for now.