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Episode 68: Soliciting Non-Monogamous Partners, Where To Meet Women, Rich Sugar Daddies, Nudes For Money

Team YMMV | 5-26-2022 | 1:01:25

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It may well be that OnlyFans has gone totally mainstream and men have no reason to expect their partner won't be sending pictures and videos of themselves all over the place to make some extra spending money. If society views it as totally fine, then why not? But might this not drive down the value of the photos and render it unprofitable?

I mean, let's say we lived in a society in which there had never been a taboo about women exposing their breasts in public. In that situation, naked breasts would also have no value, since they'd be so easy to come by. Paradoxically, for nude photos to continue to be profitable, they need to remain something frowned upon.

I guess, like most things, you take the good, you take the bad, you take the rest, and that's what you get.

We've also got a rich sugar daddy who is pissed that an even richer one took away his sugar baby. Discussion about how to meet women if you don't like online dating apps, and how to approach women online for an explicitly non-monogamous situation.

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/68/sb-whale

https://ymmv.me/68/nudes

https://ymmv.me/68/compliments

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

  • [00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships in a way that is often controversial but usually in good faith. We think you'll enjoy our combination of candor and deadpan humor on the topic list today is where to go to meet women. How to reveal ethical non-monogamy to prospective partners how to respond to finding out your girlfriend is sending naughty picks to other men and more I am Keith my co-host is Mike hello Mike um I have a lot of various pattern things today. But.
  • [00:22] Mike: Hello keith.
  • [01:06] Keith: Ah, first thing I wanted to ask you is when is the last time you touched your Vr headset for pornography Really, you're still using it weekly.
  • [00:53] Mike: Oh I probably weekly I would say yeah I would say jenner yeah, it's interesting. It's ah it's I don't pay for the content I mean really like it's it's challenging to use it but I would say that um it oh challenging to find content.
  • [01:41] Keith: Well what? how is it challenging to use. Okay, yeah.
  • [01:32] Mike: Yeah, because they're just yeah, it's it's it's still in that nascent stage where it hasn't like fully fully just generated a bunch of tube sites. Um, there are there are some sites that have let's let me think which ones um I Want to say Ex hamster.
  • [02:06] Keith: Right.
  • [02:29] Keith: Yeah.
  • [02:11] Mike: I'm not sure. There's some sites that have a certain amount of this content but it's it's pretty uncommon. Still um.
  • [02:40] Keith: Ex hamster is the pornhub of Europe by the way I think porn hup is porn hub is an american company and at camps ex hamster is a european one and I think there's probably all kinds of different legal requirements for these different companies to host pornography and so the. The contours of the kind of porn that appear on the sites are slightly different.
  • [03:00] Mike: Yeah I mean it but it is like it it. Yeah, it just is a slightly different experience and I think it's like enough different than it's compelling and and 1 other thing I wanted to mention is that you can use 2 2 d content on it and it's still kind of a different experience because it's more encompassing. Um.
  • [03:58] Keith: Yeah.
  • [03:37] Mike: Can be a negative too right? like it. You can't browse as easily and so yeah, the Ui on its clunky. It's difficult to to move around. You don't have like the nice mouse and Keyboard interface. So it's slower. Yeah.
  • [04:10] Keith: Yeah, yeah I like being able to quickly switch to something else if I when I get bored and and that.
  • [04:08] Mike: Yeah, but it's not but it's no, it's compelling enough that I I will somewhat frequently go Oh let me let me give this one a ah world and sometimes I just can't find anything compelling and I take it off. So.
  • [04:53] Keith: Huh okay I'm surprised you're still using it once a week I I just assumed that it went to 0
  • [04:41] Mike: Yeah, ah I don't yeah and I don't know what it would be if I were paying for content. Ah I don't know if that would make a difference because the content is all pretty like you can get previews of large quantities of the paid content and it's all the the storyline or whatever you want to call it is is.
  • [05:28] Keith: Ah.
  • [05:18] Mike: Okay, the storyline important is always kind of the same but ah because they're shooting it from the male gaze or the male perspective and he can't move very easily because of that. It's always like a guy sitting in a chair having you know some woman comes up and does things and it's very professional and so forth and. I Just think there's some technological improvements needed to make it more compelling but I think that I think they'll get there. Yeah.
  • [06:27] Keith: Okay, you mentioned something there that what to double click on have you noticed the previews of professionally produced porn that get posted to places like pornhub so there are a bunch of studios that make they have like pay websites. And the videos there will be you know lengthy Twenty five thirty minutes or whatever a scene normally is but the previews they place they place on Pornhub are 6 minutes or 7 minutes or 8 minutes and it will show various clips from the full thing. But. Think they're doing it in such a way that maximally gets people to come to the website and subscribe so they're trying to get you to be sexually frustrated enough to come to the website and hastily pay for their three day free trial that immediately after that converts to a 1 year subscription at.
  • [07:37] Mike: Is right.
  • [08:21] Keith: $80 a year or whatever right.
  • [07:58] Mike: Right? They want that credit card number I've noticed that and also I mean even the more amateur stuff is I mean? Okay, so there's a subreddit called no fans. Are you familiar with this. It's basically supposed to exclude any woman who has an only fans account because people are so tired of just like.
  • [08:38] Keith: No.
  • [08:37] Mike: The same. There's the same dynamic right? You have some sort of amateur content. But then they cut off right before the crucial parts of the scene or they somehow mess up the video and then they're like oh come over to our only fans page or my only fans page to get it. Yeah and this is a trend and the thing I don't understand about it. Ah, this goes along with a lot of.
  • [09:20] Keith: Right? right? right.
  • [09:17] Mike: Consumer Trends I don't and I just don't understand the mentality of the man who says okay I'll I'll pay for that I don't yeah I'll never understand that.
  • [09:53] Keith: Well you mean paying for porn. Generally.
  • [09:39] Mike: Ah, yeah I don't understand that either. But but but but this in this particular case It's like falling for the I mean look I don't understand falling for their marketing pitch or whatever and it like it similarly I don't understand I Really don't understand.
  • [10:24] Keith: Yeah.
  • [10:15] Mike: Ah, men giving money on camsites I I think I just completely don't understand what's going on I I understand it intellectually but I can't I would never do that.
  • [10:51] Keith: Well, okay, all right. There's a few different things there. The None is just paying for porn generally and I've done that in the past mostly I don't need to because you can use some combination of the tube sites. Like porn hub and Ex Hamster and bittorrent to get everything for free. Um, sometimes oh torrent I see yeah.
  • [11:15] Mike: Right? That is by the way. A ah thing people do for the Vr porn situation I've not looked into this at all. But you can definitely tour it. Yeah, the problem is the files are massive and so it's just just gets I mean then you have to.. It's just how much. Your life. Do you want to devote to this people wind up with like hard hard drives like sitting on their desk with just their porns I get the porn everywhere. So anyway, go on though go on.
  • [12:09] Keith: Right? right? right? right? And for me having porn that I've you know used before is not interesting I don't so I would need to get this like huge forward library to anticipate what I might like to see.
  • [12:10] Mike: Right? so.
  • [12:48] Keith: When it's time to get the job done And yeah, it's unwieldy.
  • [12:30] Mike: Whatever yeah, whatever male, whatever it is in a relationship with a real person that enables you to as a man to tolerate the lack of variety That's just you know intrinsic to a relationship that's missing in porn and so it's true that like I mean it just.
  • [13:17] Keith: Just.
  • [13:08] Mike: Or a repetition of a porn that you saw however long ago is intolerable. It has to be new. It has to be novel otherwise it it just destroys it.
  • [13:37] Keith: Yeah I'd I'd love to know like how far back my memory goes I if I can I can definitely tell if I've seen a porn within some time horizon I'm not sure exactly what it was is. But. Be really interesting to see like a porn that I you know used for some 45 second clip that you know got me to my nut if I could still recognize it ten years later or whatever.
  • [14:08] Mike: You probably can't and and like Pornhub probably has this data for people who browse without incognito mode. They could tell like oh this guy every year he he does this one now if it's a re Yeah if you're doing it every week then obviously you're doing it on purpose. But yeah.
  • [14:51] Keith: Um, bright. Yeah, but yeah, with ah cam girls I'm sorry not cam girls but with so the pick sites like only fans I think people pay for those because they get. Ah, taste for the meat on wherever they advertise so Reddit or Instagram or Tiktok and then they they lure you to their only fans page and you know there there may be none or hundreds of photos and videos and if you're. You know, excited about this girl. Ah, people will just fork over the amount.
  • [15:47] Mike: I Think that's I think that's tricky though because I mean there are a few different things that could be going on there one I mean obviously they're you're running up against the variety desire that a man might have and so I'm initially inclined to say oh yeah.
  • [16:34] Keith: Yeah, but Mike None one of the clever things about only fans is that a lot of these girls charge. You know something like seven ninety nine for a monthly subscription and so ah. We should have somebody from only fans somebody who's a only fans model on but I think what a lot of them see is people subscribe and then immediately unsubscribe ah and get.
  • [17:06] Mike: That makes sense I mean I even twitch twitch streamers see see that apparently I don't know why but they see like huge attrition.
  • [17:44] Keith: Yeah I mean the attrition totally makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is who wouldn't to trit after a month right? because when you subscribe seven ninety nine you get the full month and what I what I need what I need is.
  • [17:45] Mike: I Could I mean I haven't investigated this at all. But I yeah.
  • [18:22] Keith: 20 minutes 20 minute lock subscription is is plenty.
  • [18:04] Mike: I could imagine someone being extremely good and I've occasionally encountered this I've encountered people on like Chatterbait or something where I thought oh this person is really good at this now I've never. It's never gotten to the point where I would follow them. But you think oh this person is somehow maybe it's a personality thing or whatever. But I think in most cases. There's something else going on for men that's going beyond this hunting and gathering behavior of just wanting to move on constantly which you and I experience where they're they're viewing like only fans and Chatterbait and so forth is maybe even porn sites as replace relationship replacements and so these are people these are men that genuinely can't get a relationship.
  • [19:19] Keith: Yeah.
  • [19:35] Keith: I yeah I agree with that I think there are people who just subscribe for long periods of time and it makes it so that the only fans model feels like they need to just keep producing new content and man I can imagine that. Gets really sort of tedious and is a bit of a mindfu for the women because you know they they have their None bedroom apartment and they have you know a few pairs of lingerie and bikinis. But at some point what are they supposed to do right? like you can't just keep stepping it up. Um.
  • [20:16] Mike: Right? Yeah. All None of you.
  • [20:51] Keith: And so but I would expect that to be some minority of the subscribers. But maybe that is not the case. Maybe there are the hardcore fans or whatever.
  • [20:45] Mike: I Think it is probably a minority but similarly our podcast has a significant cadre of women who listen to it just to hear your voice so something we know, fair point.
  • [21:31] Keith: Yeah, and get that for free though. Um, yeah, and then yeah I mean you mentioned this The last thing is the camsites I think people subscribe there and pay there because they imagine themselves having a relationship with the person I mean that is.
  • [21:35] Mike: Yeah, exactly yeah and for whatever reason they can't.
  • [22:10] Keith: Completely pathetic to me I don't understand that.
  • [21:51] Mike: Ah I mean there are people that are just extremely unattractive and or have a yeah.
  • [22:25] Keith: Sure and there there are some women who are really really good at making their customers feel attended to they probably have to round Robin attention in some way and there's some amount of.
  • [22:23] Mike: Yeah.
  • [22:58] Keith: Sending messages to some of your subscribers that are personalized that that keeps them around I'm not I'm not sure but you can imagine a B testing various strategies there to maximize your subscriber base.
  • [22:56] Mike: Yeah I mean women are very good at that I still ah I I so genuine this is true I still beat myself up over ah giving some money to a stripper twelve years ago who gave me like a really good sob story and I realized the next day that it was fake and that she did that every night and I was like shit.
  • [23:52] Keith: Right? Yeah, yeah, good for her. That's pretty entrepreneurial.
  • [23:36] Mike: And I'm still pissed at myself for falling for that scam. So fair point I should I should I should I should turn it around and applaud her instead of being mad at myself for being stupid. But yeah, right.
  • [24:17] Keith: Right? Yeah, she was able to articulate a believable tale. Okay, let's move on a friend of mine asked me yesterday two days ago he expressed some frustration about where to meet women and. Thought that was sort of a weird thing to say but then I started thinking about it and you know the obvious place to say is bars bars have lots of women I do think that women don't go to bars for the same reason that men do I think women go.
  • [25:04] Mike: Is I'm just confused like is this a I mean I thought that that this at all transitioned over to tinder and bumble and hinge or whatever seeking arrangement, whatever depending on your thing.
  • [25:33] Keith: Go ahead.
  • [25:52] Keith: I I think this friend prefers to meet people in person. He's not converting on the online apps as much as he would like and he is very extroverted and so he's looking for some way to cast a wider net.
  • [25:56] Mike: I Think I mean I've talked to some women about this and women see those online methodologies as much better for them because they can pre-qualify men because obviously not being a woman I haven't. Ah, experienced the various negative experiences women can have at a bar or whatever but my understanding is particularly for an attractive young lady. It can be pretty bad. There's some percentage of men that make their lives miserable pretty quickly right.
  • [27:16] Keith: Right? Well I think women when they go to a bar. It's not necessarily to meet strange men I think a man at any time if an even halfway attractive woman. You know a woman. Let's let's say this man is a 6 somebody who's.
  • [27:09] Mike: Right.
  • [27:54] Keith: You know, None points lower or higher so a 4 or higher if ah, if a woman like that says hello to you? a man would be at least mildly briefly interested women I think because they have men available to them at all times. It's not interesting to have someone come up to them and say hello. And the experience of going to a bar has a lot of that and that can be annoying I think women go to bars maybe to hang out with their friends to look cute. Whatever it may be but their none none none and none objectives are not meeting women and for a man at any time if an interesting woman presents herself that that's.
  • [28:25] Mike: Years. Sure.
  • [29:12] Keith: A huge unusual win.
  • [28:50] Mike: Right? So I think it's I mean it's difficult for a man to excluding these dating well in particular I think this is a thing that is moved because women move culturally I mean because women now have the ability to pre-screen and so I would imagine that just going I would imagine that say. Versus twenty years ago going up to a woman and just saying hello in a bar has gotten harder because of that.
  • [30:00] Keith: Yeah I think that's probably right? It's considered even more gauche or whatever whereas it right? Yeah, if I wanted to be talking to men right now I'd be doing it online and then setting up a date that there's.
  • [29:49] Mike: Yeah, it's like look just look me up on Tinder and then we'll you know plan something.
  • [30:10] Mike: So right.
  • [30:39] Keith: Not really the circumstance where a woman is going to a bar to meet man at all ever anymore. Okay I had 3 what I think are fairly good ones. The first is I think wine bars are probably good I think women go to wine bars much more than men.
  • [30:20] Mike: So what? Ah what advice did you give your friend. Okay.
  • [31:10] Keith: Think women often go to wine bars to meet up with their girlfriends and maybe not all of them show up at the same time. So I think there might be situations where there are women sitting alone at wine bars maybe waiting for people who aren't men some increased amount versus other kinds of bars. Um I wouldn't go to.
  • [31:17] Mike: Okay.
  • [31:49] Keith: Dive bars. For example I think you're unlikely to run into single women at dive pars. There are some and there are some types of women who would really like that. But in general no I told him there might be certain kinds of classes. He could take I think a pottery class might be good.
  • [31:34] Mike: Sure.
  • [31:56] Mike: Time.
  • [32:26] Keith: Or or a painting class or something like this I think women do that way more than men. So you're going to have a good ratio there and it's sort of social and so you won't be ah you won't be rejected if you attempt conversation. Ah, and then the third one I I suggested was a dog park.
  • [32:39] Mike: Oh my lord probably ah you of course have 2 of your own own dog.
  • [33:04] Keith: I'm I'm guessing dog parks are a great place to meet women if you're in like you do have to have your own dog. My friend does have his own dog. Yeah hanging around in dog parks without a dog is almost as weird as hanging around playgrounds without a child.. It's. Not done.
  • [33:18] Mike: So on the ah on the class one. The I have a comment on that which are None things actually None is that I think that generally doing something where you have like some kind of strength and you don't want to show off in like a really obvious way. So. The guy who goes to the gym and just starts lifting none of weight or something thinking women are going to look at him is probably going to be disappointed. However, if there's something where you have some aptitude and but you're not yeah, you're not, you're not going to take like a tennis lesson and you're just ah, Pete Sampress all of a sudden like you you know where you have some aptitude and so you can just. Show that you have some capability that could be compelling and the other so the other specific advice I have on classes is ah foreign language classes. Ah because that optimizes for well particularly if you're.
  • [34:52] Keith: Yeah.
  • [35:06] Keith: Ah.
  • [34:59] Mike: In another country I mean it would be not as good say you're in if you're in the United States taking classes to learn like spanish because then it might just be old people but ah, a group a thing that I've encountered that is interesting is foreign language classes say in another country where it's learning the language of that country.
  • [35:35] Keith: Right.
  • [35:36] Mike: Ah, because that optimizes for college age women typically because they need to learn a language to have a visa to ah attend university and secondly um, it it tends to be like 80% women because for some reason men just think they can learn the language like through you know.
  • [36:05] Keith: Right? right.
  • [36:32] Keith: On the ground. Yeah.
  • [36:15] Mike: Osmosis. Yeah, exactly and so and so language cloud this is a so well-known thing in the sort of language learning community that like it's mostly women and also most interpreters are women so you're yeah, you're very likely to be None man or. You say a 20 person class. You're very likely to be None of like the 3 men in that class and then of course if you're smart if you're smart at all like it indexes really hard on that so so that yeah yes yes so that ah that ah I can give that advice. Yeah, but if you're in the United States
  • [37:07] Keith: Um, yeah, right? Yeah, competence is always attractive and so yeah, if.
  • [37:13] Mike: Ah, you'd have to be learning English So so it's kind of tricky to do that right? Yeah yeah.
  • [37:40] Keith: You could pretend not to speak english if I feel a little hard um all right? Let's move on. Um I've been thinking more about well. Okay, how to introduce this. This will be the most interesting way I deleted all of the dating apps off of my phone. Um, and I recently I recently yeah, things are going well with Alissa we were traveling too and I find that like logging into dating apps is.
  • [38:08] Mike: The sex is that good huh.
  • [38:57] Keith: Always sort of fun because you get you know serve you know, pictures of attractive women and so it's sort of fun but I was like yeah this is a waste of my time. So I I deleted.
  • [38:49] Mike: For you. It's hang on for you. It's actually better than that because ah, you pay and I think other people should do this. You pay for the this is the opposite of my confusion about only fans like I don't get why you would pay for that I Totally get why you would pay for tinder or whatever I don't if you could pay on the other ones but say tinder because.
  • [39:24] Keith: So.
  • [39:43] Keith: You can.
  • [39:26] Mike: Your experience I've only ever seen this on your phone because I've never seen somebody else do this, but your experience is the best possible experience because you maybe go to a new city you you let tinder know you're in that city wait 24 hours and then you you get this list of women who upfoted you like you don't have to play the game at all. Just like oh here's the women that thumbs me up and it it is actually a menu whereas for most men if you don't pay you don't get that experience I don't want to advertise for these apps or whatever. But I think if you can afford it. It's probably smart to pay.
  • [40:27] Keith: Yeah.
  • [40:38] Keith: Yeah. I Have some theories about how to optimize your exposure. So The thing that you need tinder to do is you need it to show you to other people and Tinder has various things that gate that.
  • [40:48] Mike: Right here.
  • [41:24] Keith: So If you've been in a city for a long time and you're not liked very much by other people. They're not going to show you around. Um, and if you never swipe yes on people. They're not going to show you around either regardless of whether or not you pay and if you just started paying I think they might show you to other people. Anyway, there's various things to talk about there. Maybe we can do a segment on an episode about that. But I don't want to do that now. I Want to talk about so I looked at Tinder and hinge and unhinge.
  • [42:07] Mike: Yes, Ah, yeah.
  • [42:37] Keith: They show you to far fewer people. But the people they show you to are much more attractive on average. So on hinge I have x likes and on tinder I have y likes and they have accumulated over the last. Basically month that I had these apps uninstalled on tinder I have like None likes. Um, let me check the latest count there is.
  • [42:59] Mike: Um, this is not I mean I have this is not the typical male experience by the way but go on. Yeah.
  • [43:40] Keith: Yeah I think it's not as well obviously but ah.
  • [43:25] Mike: None I mean think about that like you could have how many so I'm thinking about when you're in an auditorium or some kind of room where they say how many people the fire marshal says can legally be in there at a time like 150 person room. Is it well be None with you is a pretty big room.
  • [44:10] Keith: Yeah.
  • [44:03] Mike: And the notion that's I mean is that you'd say it's like ah that movie. Um ah was the movie about the baseball players where they create the the stadium in Iowa or whatever and now they play a game there every year. Yeah field of dreams and one of the guys says excuse me is this heaven.
  • [44:46] Keith: Field of dreams. Right? Yeah I okay I'm going to send you a screenshot of the none None None 3 4 None 6 the none 30 and you're going to see that this is not quite the dream. You've imagined.
  • [44:39] Mike: But None ah woman room could be that.
  • [44:55] Mike: Um, since Yeah. We don't want to share this screenshot with the listeners I Assume we'll have to do some description here.
  • [45:36] Keith: Ah, yeah, ah okay I just whatsapp to you this and this isn't You can't see as much as you might like to see but you'll see that like basically there's no one there that is immediately.
  • [45:34] Mike: This is like.
  • [46:15] Keith: Um, sexually attractive I don't know if you disagree with that. Maybe I was going to say mary mary mary number ah 38 years old that one.
  • [45:58] Mike: I I mean lady Mary is not bad but I think she's a cartoon. No the lady Mary who's a cartoon actually is who I was talking about. Yeah.
  • [46:45] Keith: Oh yeah, but yeah I mean that's the yeah you see that person's not even showing themselves what row. Oh maybe maybe? yep.
  • [46:30] Mike: What about J J Period a None row a None picture. Yeah, and Hillary is 2 women so it's unclear which one she is but it's probably the the one on the right which is less compelling I think um Ursula there's no face I do yeah.
  • [47:17] Keith: Yeah, anyway, you see the problem here. You see the problem here right? So What? what? tinder is doing is they're juicing my like count by showing this is not going to come off well but they're showing me to people who are lower caliber than me. And so of course they can juice the number of likes that way. But yeah, it's not really useful. Um, the reason why I mention this is hinge over the same time period I've gotten like 20 likes and I don't hinge doesn't have a web app So I don't have an easy way to send you the photos. Also I'm not paying.
  • [47:46] Mike: 55
  • [48:07] Mike: Just okay.
  • [48:36] Keith: Paying for hinge. So I couldn't create a carousel like the one that I just sent you but hinge I have something like None likes and ah I was thinking about running an experiment to see how people respond to me revealing. That I am ethically non-monogamous and I have crafted a sentence that so my normal strategy is if I match with someone I like I'll look at their profile and I'll try to find something interesting to question them on. So. Don't just make a comment and force them to think of something to say back I want to say something that's like so somewhat unusual that will invite them to respond and then if they respond. Ah maybe I'll do like None more thing of patter and then I'll say hey you know you seem cool. We should go grab dinner or drink. Ah. But because ah all the experimenting I've done with that has been when I haven't been when I haven't had a girlfriend that I'm ethically that I'm purportedly ethically non-monogamous with I haven't had to deal with this problem of having to do the ethical part of that which is yet tell people that you're e m. And so I think the new script should be something like ah say that I'm ethically not monogamous and then do the thing where I ask a question or comment and ah the thing that I'm considering saying is are you ready? Okay I'll just say something like Hia x so.
  • [51:10] Mike: A yes.
  • [51:46] Keith: Hia Sarah Full disclosure My girlfriend and I are ethically non-monogamous I endeavor to get a chance to amuse you over dinner or a drink. So and then I would say the question or comment and I expect that almost everyone will block me or just not respond and I think it'll be interesting. Ah, because I have this opportunity on Tinder with 150 people and I also have this this opportunity on hinge with like 15 to 20 people that are higher Caliber. Um. And think it'll just be interesting to see what ratio of people are willing to tolerate that.
  • [52:37] Mike: I Think that ah to do this appropriately and you could do it yourself. Um I think you should prior to doing that either give ah so assign each woman a score of attractiveness or just rank them either way.
  • [53:10] Keith: Um.
  • [53:24] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
  • [53:08] Mike: Because that way if my my thesis here is you're not going to get a zero percent hit right? You will get some kind of hit rate. But I'm certain I would bet money that your hit rate will strongly follow a reverse ordering of their attractiveness right.
  • [53:51] Keith: That is of course my same theory. Um, and I think Alyssa my girlfriend would disagree with that I'm not sure I'm not sure if she would disagree with it or not I think she she's not here to defend herself. We can ask her next time we have her on but.
  • [53:46] Mike: Yes.
  • [54:02] Mike: Yeah, she might.
  • [54:30] Keith: She might admit that she might admit but she would she would say the correlation won't be as strong as we think or something like that I think.
  • [54:18] Mike: Well, it's not I mean it's not.. It's a None order effect of attractiveness right? It's not just oh I'm not as attractive therefore I need to do this.. It's that they have fewer male suitors. It's that right? it's it's ah it's a consequence of just their less. They're Their're smaller. Ah yeah. Potential boyfriend or whatever group and so then yeah I mean they they have to do something and so they move over to these other options and they're willing. Yeah.
  • [55:20] Keith: Um, right.
  • [55:32] Keith: Okay, how do you feel about that intro where choices I tossed over was ah yeah, so I say I endeavor to get a chance to amuse you over dinner or drink I would I was going to say something like. You know I could get rid of the to get a chance I endeavored to amuse you over dinner or drink or I could say entertain you or charm you or yeah, there's various different words I could use there.
  • [55:49] Mike: Is it a.
  • [56:01] Mike: So you feel like it's enough. Ah, it's It's obvious enough from the fact that you're on a dating app that you're not proposing just to be friends I Guess the fact that you brought up Non-monogamous is yeah.
  • [56:52] Keith: Yeah I I also thought about putting some sort of off ramp for the woman. So I could say you know I'd like to charm you over dinner or a drink platonically or otherwise and then they sort of have an off ramp to choose whether they want to keep talking. But.
  • [56:37] Mike: Suggest that.
  • [57:30] Keith: I think that'll muddy the experiment I want it to be sort of clear that I'm looking for a potential. Ah None partner here.
  • [57:15] Mike: Right? Yeah, So the doubt I have here is about I mean this is more of a strategic doubt than and than a terminal or like a linguistic doubt about what you're saying is I know that people would become irritated if they chatted with you for. Ah, long period of time and then found out about your status. However I think it's possible that you would have a high I think it might change the hit rate if you had if you had something you said if you had say 3 messages.
  • [58:14] Keith: Yes.
  • [58:28] Keith: I agree.
  • [58:40] Keith: I agree.
  • [58:23] Mike: And the None one brought this up. So if you if you yeah if you basically yeah, so well. So that's an interesting another wrinkle in the potential experiment you could do here. Thanks.
  • [58:57] Keith: Yeah, websites do that with their checkout flows right? like they don't reveal the sales tax or the ticketing fee or whatever it is until you're already 4 steps into the process and you know then it's you know, less of a.
  • [58:44] Mike: Check right? yeah.
  • [58:59] Mike: Right. Yeah, so the yeah, the problem with that is 2 things None is I know you don't want to have to so first of all, it's it just becomes more complicated to to manage with None people. Secondly um.
  • [59:35] Keith: You know, less of a jump to to tolerate the new annoyance.
  • [59:54] Keith: Are.
  • [59:43] Mike: Really to do that experiment. You would have to do custom messages for messages say 2 and 3 before you hit them with the e m thing. So otherwise it's not really going to work and the better you customize the better. It's going to go because yeah yeah, right.
  • [01:00:20] Keith: Yep. Yeah, the trick would be to charm them right? The trick would be to to seem compelling and interesting and lower their anti ethical non-monogamy defenses.
  • [01:00:27] Mike: That's right? but the way Yeah, the way you're but but look I mean I think this is the only like principled way to do the experiment and yeah so I think my only advice is giving them all a score or ranking them in some simple way beforehand in terms of your text I mean it's obvious what's going on.
  • [01:01:07] Keith: Okay.
  • [01:00:56] Mike: I mean I don't think I'm not sure. There's a way to to modify that that would because your goal actually here is not necessarily to have success. Your goal is to make sure it's clear. What's going on to get data right? Yeah, so so I think your yeah your message. Yeah.
  • [01:01:37] Keith: Right? That's right? Yeah well I mean this is again like I'm not going to come off like well here. But ah yeah, with any of these 156 from tinder. My goal is certainly not to get a date.
  • [01:01:48] Mike: There's a couple there that I think are sort of compelling and there and there's one where there's no face there. Some of them are kind of blurry and stuff but yet generally ah like.
  • [01:02:22] Keith: I mean but Mike keep in mind here that the thumbnail you're seeing is like they're carefully selected best possible presentation right? so.
  • [01:02:14] Mike: I Have a question though I'm I'm I'm Curious. So The the fact I think the answer to this is yes, but the fact that you are an in an E M relationship does not lower or change in any way like the attractiveness standard you would have in other words like the notion of just getting Variety. Wouldn't cause you to alter that standard a bit ah given that you can return to a person of a certain attractiveness that you already understand.
  • [01:03:19] Keith: Um, oh. No, That's a fair point I think that ah my bar for considering someone ah eligible for ah mating with is probably lower. Yeah I think of it.
  • [01:03:35] Mike: Okay, so in that sense maybe one of these could be compelling. Ah yeah I understand what if you set the bar at oh I don't want to have this as my primary partner for a year sure I think that makes sense given the pictures you sent me. But. Yeah, for like a one night stand maybe you would consider it maybe not and I don't know.
  • [01:04:34] Keith: Yeah.
  • [01:04:46] Keith: Yeah, it's really funny. The curves on this so like ah a couple of these women I'm scrolling down are in their twenty s and the none 3 have clicked on are all transsexual. So like there's no women in their twenty s that would that would consider me or. Tinder's not showing me to women in their twenty s I'm not sure it is showing me to some women in their twenty showing me to trans women in their twenty s I'm not sure if tinder knows that they certainly do know they certainly could know it they could scrape the text but they might explicitly not because the mob might be upset if they were.
  • [01:05:03] Mike: Yeah, well.
  • [01:05:15] Mike: So probably not.
  • [01:06:00] Keith: If they if they had something in their algorithm that did different things with Trans women that would ah that could get them in some hot water.
  • [01:05:48] Mike: I Mean some of them don't have listed what their age is but I think that at that age. Yeah, that age Gap like it's more likely that you would have you have to I think you then you're talking about a woman's explicitly calling out that she's interested in a guy significantly older than her. So.
  • [01:06:22] Keith: There's that too.
  • [01:06:41] Keith: Right? right.
  • [01:06:22] Mike: Maybe that's not like a thing on tinder. It also could be that Tinder is not popular among people who are aged in their twenty s at this point I actually don't know you'd have to create a fake account right? exactly exactly there's some new.
  • [01:07:03] Keith: It could be yeah, they've they've moved on to whatever the Tiktok version of Twitter of tinder is yeah okay, okay, all right? Well let's ah, let's talk a little bit.
  • [01:07:02] Mike: Or they all have started doing seeking arrangement which is probably the truth.
  • [01:07:38] Keith: More about this experiment off offline but we'll communicate what what I decide to ultimately do and the results maybe on the next episode if I get results by then. Okay, you had a couple things you wanted to mention I don't know what I don't I'm not sure.
  • [01:07:17] Mike: Sure.
  • [01:07:32] Mike: Yeah. Like.
  • [01:08:18] Keith: Which of these you want to get into but you can choose.
  • [01:07:56] Mike: Sure I mean the ah I was I mean frankly like I I encountered some content on social media recently regarding I guess yeah e m but poly polygamy polyamory whatever relationships and ah it occurred to me that it was another wrinkle. In the general difficulty for someone in your situation. It's actually pretty contextual to what we were talking about. Ah apparently um, it's common in these situations for None partner or the other to start demanding more and more information about the person who their partner.
  • [01:09:06] Keith: Um.
  • [01:09:17] Mike: Wants to have this polyamorous experience with to qualify them for that experience. So examples would be some sort of selective demand for rigor around Sti testing I mean just.
  • [01:09:43] Keith: Um, ah.
  • [01:09:42] Mike: Something Beyond what you would normally expect like some hey you have to do this this you can't do that things where it just becomes impossible already with E and M you have the difficulty for a man at least of having to reveal to the woman that you're doing this. Ah so she has to be interested. But this is even further Beyond That's like oh so this would be you've revealed it. The woman's still game and now you're like oh.
  • [01:10:11] Keith: Um, ah.
  • [01:10:24] Keith: Yes, yes.
  • [01:10:19] Mike: But I have to wear 4 condoms or you know some kind of selective demand and I'm I'm curious if this is something you've encountered.
  • [01:10:43] Keith: Right? Yeah well I mean a lesson I have been dating for almost a year and I haven't had sex with anyone in that time and so I don't really know anyone else. Um I.
  • [01:10:43] Mike: So right.
  • [01:11:23] Keith: So yeah I don't I have not successfully executed an ethical non-monogamous sexual encounter and so I yeah I Just don't really know. But yeah I mean look it is totally reasonable for your partner to want you to.
  • [01:11:14] Mike: Okay, so you haven't.
  • [01:11:59] Keith: Um, not get them sick because you've been sleeping around with other people without checking their Sti thing. But.
  • [01:11:46] Mike: Sure but you could eat. You could easily imagine that being used as just a this just goes down to that sort of general path like in some significant percentage of the of relationships where this is claimed to be what's going on. It actually doesn't happen because it's just easy for the person to say Oh no.
  • [01:12:37] Keith: Right.
  • [01:12:23] Mike: You can't you can't have sex with her or him because of this or this and actually it could be a way for you to prevent Alyssa from having another partner. You could ah come up with some nonsense. Yeah yeah, that would be total nonsense but sure.
  • [01:12:59] Keith: Right? I can be like you. You can only choose people who have red hair or whatever have a have a credit score over None and because otherwise I just don't feel safe. Yeah I don't know you could erect boundaries.
  • [01:13:13] Mike: Right? this.
  • [01:13:39] Keith: Um, but yeah, just I haven't haven't gotten to that point and so I don't know.
  • [01:13:26] Mike: Ah, all right? Why don't we move on to some questions.
  • [01:13:55] Keith: Okay, um I want to talk about this guy who catches his girlfriend sending naked photos. Um, here's what he says. Caught my girlfriend sending naked photos and videos to random guys online for money I truly am disgusted and do not know how to carry forward after this it was just for the money in quotes and she is quotes extremely embarrassed shameful sorry etc. We've been serious for None ars She knows it was a hard boundary. She even thought that me watching porn was considered cheating. I find out. She's literally doing it as far as financially she is in no means desperate. She comes from a great family who are not hurting for money I also make a lot of money and have offered it in the nicest way possible to try and make her comfortable about it. Finances are not a valid valid excuse in her shoes I was told her we are a team instead I just tried to do nice random things to help out. Grocery shop when I go see her bring her out to eat etc. Please offer me advice or similar situations. Hopefully some of you out there have dealt with this and can guide me. Thank you? Ah my reading of this is this guy sounds basically as beta as you can possibly imagine and she's just cheating on him like I can't imagine. Any other situation here.
  • [01:15:58] Mike: You can't I mean from her person but okay I don't know whether she's showing her face like if if there was a way and I don't think there is a way and probably now I'll find out if there is via email. Um, if there was a way for me to send like pictures of my balls somewhere and get money or my dick.
  • [01:16:46] Keith: Yeah. Yeah.
  • [01:16:37] Mike: Just my dick. Ah I might do that because it's free money and so they're okay, well so that could be what's going on for her if she's showing her if she's having if she's carrying on some sort of like.
  • [01:17:08] Keith: In what situation would you not I mean I would definitely do it.
  • [01:17:08] Mike: Pseudo relationship with these guys or showing pictures where that she's easily identify identifiable That's different right.
  • [01:17:38] Keith: Yes, yeah, then you're compromising some sort of whatever but I think even if I had to like have identify at identifiable nudes of me on the web but I could reliably get paid for it I would be comfortable with that. It's just that nobody wants a man's only fans account.
  • [01:17:48] Mike: It is yeah it's no demand for that. Yeah, so so well the point being it doesn't have to be that she's cheating on him. It could just be that she it's just so easy to get this money that she's like well why like why wouldn't I There's just money.
  • [01:18:14] Keith: No demand.
  • [01:18:40] Keith: I Agree it's I agree. It's like negligent not to if it's if it's that easy. But I doubt that's what's going on here.
  • [01:18:22] Mike: Screw around on the ground.
  • [01:18:31] Mike: Yeah, okay, you think that because you think that at core a woman who has plenty of money would never do this because it's just lame.
  • [01:19:15] Keith: Yeah I mean if she thinks that him watching porn is considered cheating then yeah, write a 1 act play where her ethics makes sense and she thinks that and also that her producing her own porn of herself and selling it online is okay, looks like I don't she could have.
  • [01:19:29] Mike: That's true. Yes.
  • [01:19:54] Keith: Ah, guess she could say something like I want you to be totally obsessed with me and only me and that other people are obsessed with me and willing to pay for. It is orthogonal to that and something something something but it's it's flimsy.
  • [01:19:46] Mike: I Still think I don't know I still think I still think I could imagine it because he's not paying for the porn wait. Let me think about this if he was paying would be worse. He's not. He's not getting paid to watch it So she's she could say look I'm just doing this for the money you were watching the porn to get that nut that I can provide you.
  • [01:20:40] Keith: Right.
  • [01:20:22] Mike: I think I think I could write the 1 act play if I had to I mean it's not very nice of her I guess but it would just be somebody who really is uptight about money wants to get that money but okay, your yeah your counter argument that it's like no, she's just she said that it was porn. But it's actually just she's having sex with the guy. She's sending the pictures to that's probably.
  • [01:20:50] Keith: Right? right. Um, yeah.
  • [01:21:02] Mike: Or she's in a real relationship with him That's a more plausible explanation. Yeah yeah I don't have any problem with that. Yeah.
  • [01:21:28] Keith: Yeah, yeah, he has an update here. But it's not very interesting. So I'm kind of kind of boove and um, okay I like this one This is ah.
  • [01:21:24] Mike: Yeah.
  • [01:22:05] Keith: A post written by a sugar daddy where his sugar baby found her whale. Do you know what? a whale is in the sugaring world. You would be if you had a sugar baby I don't know I don't know if you would be.
  • [01:21:55] Mike: I think I think I'm a whale am I a whale if I were doing it. Oh nice but I wouldn't really I mean there must be like multiple levels of whale. Yeah, oh.
  • [01:22:43] Keith: I Don't think you would be generous enough. You would you would be capable of being a whale but I don't know if you would be generous enough to be considered a whale I think a whale is basically a whale is basically someone who provides an overwhelming amount of money just out of the goodness of his heart and.
  • [01:22:34] Mike: That's not where I was yoga.
  • [01:22:51] Mike: But what's overwhelming I mean with the word whale makes me think of I mean that's a word that comes from or where I've experienced that word or heard at the most is in like Las Vegas a person who just gambles preposterous amounts but it would be like a billionaire at that point so I don't know what an overwhelming amount of money is probably you know high 4 figures.
  • [01:23:37] Keith: Right.
  • [01:23:50] Keith: Yeah.
  • [01:23:29] Mike: Something a month. So okay, so sure you could okay so she found a whale. She found some guy that is meeting all of her needs. Yeah, okay go on. Yeah.
  • [01:24:06] Keith: And the sugar daddy is feeling insecure about it. Let me read the post because I think you'll enjoy the details if you look through my post history. You'll understand what I'm talking about she met a guy that flew her to his town for a day trip and sent her home with a Xx Comma xx x dollar allowance for a supposedly platonic meat. So yeah, none of all, let's just assume that she told sugar daddy number one that it was a platonic meat and it wasn't but at that amount of money it doesn't even matter. Um.
  • [01:24:22] Mike: Took tens of thousands of dollars.
  • [01:24:42] Mike: Right? yes.
  • [01:25:17] Keith: Ah, he's he's one of those guys that owns a private plane and is close to billionaire status apparently feeling pretty devastated and definitely unable to compete. He gives a xax x x x Dollar pp ppm pay per meat while we have a xax x x x dollar monthly allowance arrangement plus other benefits for her.
  • [01:25:01] Mike: Okay.
  • [01:25:29] Mike: So this guy's this guy's a whale yeah is well he's getting he got double whaleed.
  • [01:25:55] Keith: His wealth is just completely out of my league and I can't compete. He is a whale I mean he's giving her okay, just just to be clear. He is claiming that he has a ten thousand dollars plus monthly allowance arrangement which means he gives her at least $10000 a month and an allowance means it's he's not paying her.
  • [01:25:57] Mike: Yeah.
  • [01:26:12] Mike: Right.
  • [01:26:35] Keith: For every meet usually people will meet once a week or a couple times a week and his issue is this other guy gave her a $10000 plus ppm which is just for 1 meeting. She got None grand he yeah I would too. Ah, he goes on.
  • [01:26:40] Mike: I'd like to see a picture of this woman.
  • [01:27:11] Keith: Guess we'll see what happens with our relationship but my insecurities at an all-time high and I fear I'm going to lose her eventually I take solace and knowing we do have a close relationship and I know she cares a lot but I fear this opportunity at this about a body will be too much for her to resist and truthfully I do want what's best for her and this guy can give her possible opportunities I never will be able to.
  • [01:27:01] Mike: Ah.
  • [01:27:50] Keith: I guess such as life and all good things come to an end and all those other cliches I appreciate all the advice I received last time and just want to vent. Ah yeah I mean if he's willing to pay None for a young lady I mean.
  • [01:27:40] Mike: This guy's a loser Jesus.
  • [01:28:26] Keith: He's going to have his pick of the litter. Anyway, right.
  • [01:28:06] Mike: He I mean he should. It's not I don't yeah I don't really understand I don't understand this mentality. It gets back to that sort of yeah.
  • [01:28:47] Keith: That's one hundred $20000 a year for those who aren't created math at a very minimum. He he just says x x x x x so you know if it's 15000 then that's one $80000 a year.
  • [01:28:46] Mike: Yeah I mean I don't Ah I think that so the only way I can interpret this is this is an older gentleman with a lot of money and he's confused and it's sad saddens me because he's confused that any.
  • [01:29:26] Keith: Yes.
  • [01:29:20] Mike: Doesn't and doesn't see that this woman is simply an escort. Ah now she's a high end escort which means her quote unquote body count is probably going to be somewhat low ah and her sort of monthly body count will be sort of low I mean yeah, there are these they're these like concrete things. She's probably taking tests you know she's good at.
  • [01:30:05] Keith: Right.
  • [01:29:59] Mike: Being emotionally sort of available but look like if he got sick or something she would just disappear and like I think that it's sort of sad to me that these men don't understand that that this is just purely transactional. Um, and there's a broader thing philosophically there that I think is sort of sad is that people can't see.. There's like a certain transactionality to all relationships and they can't see the kind of connection. There.
  • [01:31:02] Keith: Right? Yeah I mean sugaring is tricky I think these men like to delude themselves that the woman actually like them at least some amount and to some extent. They do like if all relationships are transactional. The amount of money you have to pay depends on how much else you bring to the table. So If you're really funny or really attractive or really you know do really entertaining things with them or can you know, get them an internship or all these things.
  • [01:31:18] Mike: Like right email that money.
  • [01:32:15] Keith: Sort of enter into this pool and you know probably a lot of sugar daddies end up in a so circumstance where the woman does like them to an extent. But if 90% of the equation is the money then if somebody comes along and gives more money your toast and.
  • [01:32:25] Mike: Yeah.
  • [01:32:50] Keith: You know for the women I think they like to imagine that are not just being valued for their sexual attractiveness as well. Ah, but you know.
  • [01:32:36] Mike: Right? Or at least appear have the getting the appearance of that I think that men have a really hard time getting past our ah strong very extremely strong tendency to value women based on appearance I think it's extremely difficult for men to understand that women. Value that much much lower and care more about care much more about like status. What the guy' is providing and things like that I can give you ah a very quick example I was watching a movie last night that had in its ah scenes it wasn't a porn. It was a real movie a normal movie. Whatever you would call it. Had scenes of women at a university in like the 1960 s showering together like just normal like in a you know, kind of ah, whatever like a group shower environment and it was actually difficult for my brain to process the fact that these women are there in a kind of gang shower together.
  • [01:34:37] Keith: Okay.
  • [01:34:31] Mike: Not just all completely aroused by each other's bodies right? It's like it's actually it's actually difficult for my male brain to process that I'm like but but how how do women how can they do anything with this with this much. Ah young women breasts and stuff around. Yeah and's like and but I think it's really important to sit with that and think wow.
  • [01:34:56] Keith: Yeah.
  • [01:35:10] Keith: Right? Yeah this this court this buffet. Yeah.
  • [01:35:11] Mike: For men. It's useful particularly like these sugar daddy guys sit with that and realize like they don't care about that stuff. So then they must care about something else and then that gets into this whole thing of transactionality and stuff. It's like look there are things that they care about and there's there's nothing wrong with that. Ah.
  • [01:35:45] Keith: Right.
  • [01:36:05] Keith: Yeah, like I mean I think I think some person would come along and say like well yeah, but what about if you put a woman in a man's locker room and um, yeah, yeah, they would be afraid like they they would not be like oh my gosh like this is the best thing that ever happened to me. There would be like some sort of fear.
  • [01:35:44] Mike: Yeah, yeah, so it's so it's it's yeah like.
  • [01:35:59] Mike: Yeah, they would be afraid.
  • [01:36:44] Keith: Maybe if they like were in some sort of Blast booth where they could absolutely trust their safety. There might be some like intellectual interest but the the sexual interest would be just different. Um.
  • [01:36:41] Mike: Right now I mean you could say now there is the response that you say oh well women do have this tendency to all congregating around guys that are Chads or Keiths and these are more attractive the top 5% of attractiveness men and that is true absent any other information or maybe girls in high school where there's not that much but even then they they've pursued status more than attractiveness right? So yes, the initial impression is the guy's attractiveness but women will absolutely congregate around the high status guy. The football star. Whatever and so it very quickly devolves moves away from physical attractiveness for them.
  • [01:38:13] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [01:37:54] Mike: Yes, if you're in a bar they're going to be attracted to the physically attractive guys because that's the only signal they have. But as soon as there's more signal they move on yeah whereas guys. Never do guys never move on.
  • [01:38:26] Keith: Right? right? Yeah I think that's right, ah, speaking of moving on. We'll move on from this post. But I just want to read 2 of the comments None person says dude have some self-respect move on. You don't need to and shouldn't be competing for women.
  • [01:38:27] Mike: Yeah.
  • [01:39:03] Keith: Accept what you have to offer great if not no big deal is there's None more out there if you're giving a 5 figure monthly allowance which is at least twice what I give you should have no issue finding a sugar baby and then this person says it.
  • [01:38:44] Mike: Right? like.
  • [01:39:31] Keith: Even better listen man I read your posts and you got to get over her bit of tough love here. She's not your girlfriend. She's told you upfront what she wants a frankly absurd amount of money you've been more than generous the sugar sugar Daddy Lifes sale is all about both parties feeling good the sugar babies get help in pursuing their dreams and the sugar daddies get companionship. It's win-win. Best thing ever but she immediately made you feel intense anxiety with yeah there's an apocalypse day on this relationship by the way. It's an undetermined demand waiting out there. That'll constantly be looking for I wouldn't be able to enjoy a minute spent with her after that and that lessons sort of bothers me a little bit because look.
  • [01:39:47] Mike: Answer right? that determines me at reading.
  • [01:40:41] Keith: It is true that in almost all relationships that there's something that the woman will leave you for. But yeah, you want there to at least be.. There's some sort of Quid pro quo where both parties pretend or delude themselves into thinking that you know. People are there for reasons other than the sex and the money and she's made it so that's impossible.
  • [01:41:01] Mike: I Think that when you I think that when you remove having kids in a family from the table. It gets a more complicated I think that it starts being pretty transactional I mean yes, a woman.
  • [01:41:36] Keith: Are.
  • [01:41:28] Mike: If a woman who is None and dating a 25 year old man is thinkinging to herself. Oh I want to to form a family with this guy. She has these things in her head once you move away from that kind of that mentality for the woman I don't know like it's I think you do I think you are in a situation where it's pretty hard to imagine her. Sticking it out through something I don't know I'm not sure why she would like what's the point. Yeah, if you get to know each other for a really long time. Sure I mean maybe but these sugar daddy situations like yeah I imagine like if the guy gets sick or something he's in the hospital. She's just going to leave. She should leave. You know if he wants someone who doesn't leave.
  • [01:42:33] Keith: Meow.
  • [01:43:05] Keith: Yeah I mean he could probably keep paying her. But if you you could pay a lot less for somebody to hang out with you and not have not have sex with you. Okay, this person says getting complimented during sex I recently hooked up with this guy I matched with unbumble.
  • [01:42:42] Mike: Who's not going to leave he needs to do something else.
  • [01:42:52] Mike: Um, yeah, right? exactly.
  • [01:43:44] Keith: Was the sweetest the moment I saw him he told me that I'm beautiful and I have a perfect body I am fat and I've been fetishized before and of of course a lot of body image issues. This was different. He kept complimenting me even when we were naked and it felt good I'm clearly not used to guys complimenting me like this especially during sex. So it just elevated my mood.
  • [01:43:29] Mike: There we go.
  • [01:44:22] Keith: Even though I didn't come. It was worth spending just an hour and a half with that guy after a bad breakup this just made me feel so good with just an hour with a stranger than I ever did with the to your relationship. So I'm sure you have something to say here but I have 2 things. The first is I can't imagine her remaining attracted. Like that feeling I think would get unattractive pretty quickly and the none thing is ah maybe that was it. Oh oh, just being like constantly constantly worshipped.
  • [01:44:55] Mike: Wait. What's the feeling that would get unattractive I didn't understand. Okay I think.
  • [01:45:36] Keith: I Think a lot of people I think a lot of people think they want that because they haven't you know they've experienced some abuse or whatever but I bet in the long run. Most people would tire of such simping. Do you know they do you know you know that expression. Okay, um.
  • [01:45:33] Mike: Sure Yes, it is that? yeah.
  • [01:46:10] Keith: Yeah, and then the None thing is have you ever been told something during sex that after which you felt compelled to write an essay on Reddit about how great you feel oh and by the way you didn't even have an orgasm like this this experience is so foreign to me.
  • [01:46:10] Mike: No experience. Well I mean I think that ah look a lot of times for women sex is a more intellectual experience than it is for the guy because they're not as horrant that? Yeah yeah I mean it can the.
  • [01:47:04] Keith: Enjoying it physically.
  • [01:46:49] Mike: The odds that the woman's enjoying it physically are much lower than the man for obvious reasons and so yeah I think that it's we it is very common for women to have a fair amount of time during sex sit around thinking about what's going on and so then you might have more of a narrative to tell whereas the guy is just going to be like yeah I just bang this hot chick.
  • [01:47:32] Keith: Ah.
  • [01:47:27] Mike: That's like the whole story right? There's not yeah and you know we did this act and that act and she did this and I did that and there's no like emotional content. Yeah.
  • [01:48:01] Keith: Yeah I've had the emotional experience where I like have deep regret or embarrassment. But I have I've not had the experience where I have you know, just sort of glowing from some sort of ego Boost I've received from it.
  • [01:47:57] Mike: Right.
  • [01:48:11] Mike: Right? But I mean for somebody who's had just mostly or completely neg I mean okay you could imagine. Let's let's take a guy who has a micro penis. You say a two two inch or one inch penis it's very very small I could imagine that guy posting something like this like oh I I was with this woman and she just.
  • [01:48:51] Keith: Ah.
  • [01:48:51] Mike: Thought it was great or whatever I'm not sure what she would say to him to like build him up but I could see that so in some ways this is this is this relates to being deficient like if or a guy who another good example, a guy with ah with ah Ed Erectile dysfunction or whatever can't get it up.
  • [01:49:20] Keith: Yeah.
  • [01:49:24] Mike: Same thing right? Oh she was so understanding. It's yeah this is tied to deficiency right? Then you're going to be thinking about like oh how do I build myself back up and you're going to get posts like this.
  • [01:50:05] Keith: Yeah I guess but in both of those situations you described. The lady is probably lying right? if she's gassing you up about your micro penis or if she's yeah.
  • [01:50:09] Mike: Um, oh he's oh wait. He's he's lying to the guy's lying that will sorry when you so when you told this story My first immediate thought was oh this and in actually where my mind went actually was oh you could steal some of this guy these guy This guy's lines to to to.
  • [01:50:45] Keith: That's true. But.
  • [01:50:46] Mike: Ah, spice up your message to the tinder ladies. You know I was thinking Oh this is actually clever like you could throw some compliments at them and maybe that would ah yeah, maybe that would help out generic generic cut paste compliments.
  • [01:51:31] Keith: Yeah I don't feel I don't feel like it look if you took the shackles off of me and let me say to those 156 women whatever I wanted to say to try to get earn a date I think I could get a date with a None of them well but I don't know a None but it's a bunch.
  • [01:51:41] Mike: No, not in the yeah and M situation in the E and M it's gonna be like oh oh sure like right.
  • [01:52:10] Keith: Ah, bunch. No no, no, no, no, no, that's what I mean by deshackling me like if I don't have to like operate with this huge handicap I Already know that they've I already know that they've liked me right and so they find me you know, physically tolerable. The the only thing I have to do then is like jump through some sort of conversational hoop and I'm pretty good at that. So I don't need.
  • [01:52:19] Mike: Right.
  • [01:52:48] Keith: I Don't really need help there. What I need help with is figuring out how to phrase the E and M thing in a way that doesn't make almost everyone run for the hills.
  • [01:52:38] Mike: Sure. Okay, so yeah, well I mean but just the general notion of generic compliments seems compelling. It certainly worked on this woman and and and yeah and I liked the notion of it being sort of false generally because that would probably be the case for your tinder thing and I like the notion of and.
  • [01:53:17] Keith: Yeah.
  • [01:53:14] Mike: Yeah I mean these women are not the most attractive women so yet another similarity or overlap there.
  • [01:53:48] Keith: Yeah I just wrote down a note to ah, write down some of my generic compliments I have I think a quiver of like 10 to 15 that I use depending on. Unusual things. You'll see in people's profiles and so I'll I'll pay attention as I'm going through this and I'll and I'll write down some good ones and bring them bring them for the next show.
  • [01:54:12] Mike: Are they are they red pill ones like where it's actually kind of there's something behind it. Red pill thing would be with a ah what do? what do they call that it's like a slight or a cut. What's the word they use negging. That's the word. Do you do that? or do you mean just genuine compliments and if in whichever everyone you mean? do you have like 1
  • [01:55:01] Keith: Negging? yeah.
  • [01:54:51] Mike: Ah, you could give listeners and some example and me I think.
  • [01:55:15] Keith: Ah sure I think there may have been a time when negging worked ah and I think the general notion of making a woman feel like she needs to earn your respect by saying something sort of negging to her might is is not a crazy theory.
  • [01:55:00] Mike: Okay, yeah I think.
  • [01:55:27] Mike: Crazy. Yeah I think it's so.
  • [01:55:54] Keith: But I think it's so well known amongst the woke women now that if you try it. It's It's likely to fail because they'll recognize it in a way that maybe they wouldn't have before oh of like a compliment I don't know. Um.
  • [01:55:49] Mike: Okay, and do you have an example of 1 of your compliments, you might give yeah like I love facial tattoos like that honey.
  • [01:56:29] Keith: I Don't know what I was using. Yeah one I was using a lot during the pandemic is if somebody looks like they have really good eyebrows I would say something like how are you maintaining those exquisite eyebrows with all the salons clothes during the pandemic and then you know if.
  • [01:56:36] Mike: And that works.
  • [01:57:06] Keith: I would use it on someone who it looks like they do stuff to their eyebrows and I think women like being complimented on something that they have agency and you know it's better than saying like hey great legs or whatever. Um, it's.
  • [01:57:08] Mike: The word exquisite makes me think of ah like that lettering that is used in tattoos Sometimes that's like really kind of flowery and I think it's also used by certain like latino gangs Sometimes that's what the word exquisite makes me think of it's it actually.
  • [01:57:54] Keith: Sure Yeah, it has all the serif stuff on it.
  • [01:57:46] Mike: Yeah, yeah, and so when if you see if somebody said to me that something I did was exquisite I actually would almost take that as negging I would be like oh you're making fun of me I like.
  • [01:58:16] Keith: Interesting I Like the word exquisite because it's sort of nonexual so I'm I'm not like ah I'm sort of saying it's our it's artistically compelling.
  • [01:58:10] Mike: Huh right? It's precise right.
  • [01:58:44] Keith: And I'm trying to compliment them for for something that yeah and it's an unusual word and has good mouthfeel and and that kind of stuff. Um, but maybe it's not great I don't know. Yeah I mean if people if people think that's not great. They can write into us at at YMMvPod on Twitter or y m v y m mv pied.
  • [01:58:34] Mike: Yeah, feels to me like trying hard.
  • [01:59:23] Keith: Hit http://gmail.com anyway if we've been going for an hour I'll wrap this up. Ah so that was episode 68 of your mileage may vary. We do still pay $10 for any feedback we receive so again. Ah you can do that on Twitter or by email.
  • [01:59:03] Mike: That's right. Okay.
  • [01:59:59] Keith: Twitter is at YMM the pod and email is YMMVPod at http://gmail.com thanks for listening and we hope you'll join us next week on your mileage may vary.