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Episode 72: Marathon Fingering Hand Strength, Oral Under Blankets, Aged Virgins

Team YMMV | 6-23-2022 | 1:00:29

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We're concerned about men who need to finger and/or edge their female partners for such a long time that their hands might not be able to keep up. It's analogous to the problems women often have with forearm strength when offering handjobs to their partners.

We tease, but don't watch (yet) an excellent video. Next episode we'll discuss it. What should a 42-year-old virgin do to improve his plight?

Is it reasonable for one partner to have to initiate all the time? And, we discuss handjobs on airplanes.

For those of you who want to see it, here is the video discussed at the beginning of the episode:

https://ymmv.me/72/champion-shirt

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/72/suffocating-oral

https://ymmv.me/72/old-virgin

https://ymmv.me/72/pants

https://ymmv.me/72/initiating

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

  • [00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships using candor and humor that is sometimes controversial but usually in good faith on today's show we'll talk about temperature control during sexual encounters a 42 year old virgin a gentleman who accidentally came into his pants and more and Keith my co-host is mike.
  • [00:18] Mike: Now Hello Keith
  • [00:38] Keith: Good day Mike so well, okay, please rate review and subscribe to the show give us feedback on Twitter at ymmv pod or by email at ymmvpodgmaildotcom all right, let's get started with episode 72 of your mileage may vary. Do you have any. Patter before I get into those topics. Mike.
  • [01:01] Mike: Well we ah I talked with a a person who was able to identify himself as somebody who was discussed I think it would have been 3 episodes ago. Ah, he was generally very complimentary of the episode which is always nice.
  • [01:51] Keith: Oh great.
  • [01:40] Mike: Um, and ah 2 things he wanted to bring up one was so you may I don't know if you remember this but ah we talked about a guy who I don't want to use the word required that's too strong. But um I guess he and his partner enjoyed having him.
  • [02:37] Keith: All right.
  • [02:19] Mike: While he had None hand on the steering wheel driving the other hand he would ah well I mean it's this isn't I mean this is what his his girlfriend really likes sex a lot a lot a lot and so he would spend a long time sort of edging her with his other fingers I guess she would hike up or hike down her clothes or whatever and ah. And he would do that and I think that I or you had complained about like finger soreness or tiredness because of the notion of like having to spend hours doing this during a car ride and he wanted to say that a long-winded way of saying he wanted to say you don't he doesn't get finger soreness tiredness because.
  • [03:29] Keith: Yes. Oh boy.
  • [03:37] Mike: Ah, she doesn't require that much pressure on her clit Keith yeah.
  • [03:58] Keith: Okay, ah this reminds me of something so I dated somebody who needed so much pressure that ah I couldn't ah yeah, like I Actually in fact. Think this is even worth it hold on I'm going to go grab this device I bought to strengthen my hands and show to you I'll be right back.
  • [04:24] Mike: Okay, ah, and while while he's doing that. Um I can say that ah it's not ah this this person. Ah his his partner is so needy. Sexual contact that in not just driving situations. But other situations he finds himself needing to to do this and and previously we've discussed ah them watching a movie and actually there he found it sort of tiresome. But interestingly in the car I I don't think it's exhibitionism but he found it less tiresome. so so Keith's back why don't you show us the.
  • [05:54] Keith: Okay, yeah, yeah, thanks for filling the silence while I was away so I had to buy these 2 things they're called the grip master and they have different settings but I got the the heavy tension ones and.
  • [05:42] Mike: Device.
  • [06:02] Mike: So these look like ah ah you would hold it in your hand between you you with you. There's 5 button there 4 buttons rather on the top and 1 button on the bottom for your thumb and you'd sort of push.
  • [06:35] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, it's you go like this and it to see see how it has these springs and it strengthens your your digits. Um.
  • [06:34] Mike: Oh yeah, that's interesting Keith that's not how I would naturally expect that device to be used I would expect it to be used. Ah yeah I'm sure you have the instruction manual. But so Keith was using it where he sort of lays his fingers across the buttons on the top and this thumb across the bottom on the bottom and I guess I should say it this way I'm almost certain the way that device is supposed to be used is to put your.
  • [07:15] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
  • [07:14] Mike: The tips of your fingers on the buttons on the top. So.
  • [07:35] Keith: Um, yeah, could be you can It's it's for ah, it's not for people trying to more effectively finger baing their girlfriends. It is. It's no, it's for ah mountain climbers.
  • [07:37] Mike: This is going to be for a person playing a musical instrument. So ok, even even okay, interesting.
  • [08:13] Keith: So you can get more hand strength. But yeah, maybe it would be useful for some sort of string instrument player. But in any case, yeah this woman required so much pressure both on her G spot and on her clit itself that yeah I would get hand soreness from.
  • [08:07] Mike: Yes, yeah.
  • [08:20] Mike: So yeah.
  • [08:51] Keith: Ah, sexual encounters with her. So.
  • [08:37] Mike: I'm interested in the the clit part I mean I guess I'm interested in both like let's start with the clit like were you worried for example, okay a worry I would have immediately with that is if I'm putting a lot of pressure with my fingers on the clit I mean I guess the tongue is right out like I don't think you can I guess you could sort of trap the tongue. Okay, all righty.
  • [09:18] Keith: Um, she did not like oral. She did not like oral. Not enough pressure.
  • [09:11] Mike: Because yeah I was going to say you could trap it against your lip or your tooth to sort of give more strength but your tongue muscles not going to be able to do it the for your fingers I I would genuinely be worried about slipping and and cutting her with a finger now.
  • [09:53] Keith: Yeah, ah I don't recall This was a while ago. But yeah I mean I guess she's needed so much pressure. Maybe she would have liked a little pain as well. Um, it was a chore honestly.
  • [09:40] Mike: That was just the risk.
  • [10:00] Mike: I like it that it's a ah while ago. Yeah, all you all you have left to the relationship is this hand this weird hand ah strengtheners like.
  • [10:28] Keith: Was a chore. Yeah I kind of like them because it's it's like ah you know some people get these little stress balls or whatever on their desk to use while they're wiling away the time and I sometimes use them just for fun.
  • [10:43] Mike: Did they help.
  • [11:08] Keith: Um, maybe a bit I think I didn't commit to using them as much as I was going to say should have but come on I mean this is preposterous situation from the start like if somebody needs a check Hammer that should probably get.
  • [11:25] Mike: Okay, so I did want to ask one. So I mean yeah on when on and I guess I'm both the clitteral but also the G spot simulation when you had to put that much pressure on the inside there I mean that like I feel like I feel like if somebody required me to they said look. Ah.
  • [11:45] Keith: Tool a vibrator I mean.
  • [12:03] Mike: I Want to see what you can do here. Ah I might be able to like rip a hole through her vaginal wall with my finger like if I had to if it was like you have to do this like So I mean I would be again nervous about doing some damage.
  • [12:41] Keith: You'd you'd be a little surprised if you like stick 2 fingers in and you know do the normal come hither thing and try to pull a woman toward you you can actually move her body. Ah.
  • [12:45] Mike: Ah.
  • [13:15] Keith: Before there's any damage to the tissue.
  • [13:02] Mike: Okay, so so part of what's going on here is it was all finger. It was. You couldn't get any sort of leverage that it was your arm or your body strength that was pushing. It was all sort of pulling when you were in there. Okay, that's important because yeah I mean you can see what I'm saying like if you if if I didn't have to kind of. Do.
  • [13:40] Keith: Yeah I guess so yes, yes.
  • [13:40] Mike: Something that anatomically complicated and I could just push push forward I mean I could develop obviously a great deal of force and do some damage I think um, you know that's not desirable obviously. But.
  • [14:17] Keith: Yeah, yeah, she wanted the pressure on her G spot and so.
  • [14:10] Mike: And right Well I mean there could be a man who's confused about where exactly that is and then you know.
  • [14:40] Keith: Sure It's a good question though. Like if I stuck my fingers in and instead of doing the come hither thing I sort of turned my hand over and was scraping the bottom of her vaginal cavity could I. I Mean if I if I had fingernails I'm sure I could scratch in there tear something but can you like do bruising or something with your fingers If you know if you had to.
  • [15:19] Mike: I Would think so yeah I mean I would I would think in fact I would think that that's like kind of a I know that women can get pain around like their cervix from things kind of pushing there. Yeah.
  • [15:55] Keith: Yeah, but that's sort of deeper in right? I'm not sure. Yeah, it's gets good that neither of us have tried.
  • [15:54] Mike: I mean I think if let let's put it this way if you right? if you were getting your g spot simated by say Eddie Van Halen who's dead now. But I think that guy probably would have the finger strengths to do an awful or Alex Honold who's not dead man I mean that guy.
  • [16:26] Keith: Ah, yeah. Yes, the famous Mountain climber.
  • [16:25] Mike: Sure I mean but ah, he yeah um, that guy could do some serious damage to your inner internal.
  • [16:52] Keith: Um, did you watch that movie with him in it. Maybe that's why his girlfriend tolerated him despite his suicidal tendencies. Yeah free solo free solo.
  • [16:48] Mike: A free climb I think it was called ah free solo my bad I Yeah I did and um I I feel like ah yeah, kind of an undiscused am I right about this that an undisgused. Element of that movie is the fact that his girlfriend was really really, really attractive is that right? Yes, yeah, and so you're sort of watching and so yes, you're watching it for that. But then you're like wait a minute can we see more video of your girlfriend.
  • [17:42] Keith: And he's autistic and weird.
  • [18:01] Keith: Right? She was so nice as well. Like it was just it was like hard to figure out I remember every time I watch a movie I'll go to the Reddit the movie subreddit and look to see what people say and yeah, there were a lot of comments about this.
  • [17:57] Mike: And right.
  • [18:38] Keith: Poor woman stuck with this insane man right.
  • [18:22] Mike: Yeah, living in a van and what does she do during the hours when he's just climbing by maybe she's ah look. But maybe this is the solution. Maybe she needs. Maybe it's that woman. Well I was thinking just she needs heavy G spot stimulation and.
  • [18:57] Keith: Maybe his fingers are so dexterous. Yeah of this is pull Ex Scalibur out of the stone.
  • [18:56] Mike: He's the only man on the planet who can do it. That's right, She's like I need I need the strongest fingers on the planet where are they.
  • [19:33] Keith: Ah, okay, was there any other feedback from this gentleman.
  • [19:23] Mike: Yeah, people probably even assiduous listeners probably won't remember this I didn't remember it when he brought it up to me and I'm the one who said the things he wanted to talk about which is he he said he really enjoyed the the idea of a depressed person masturbating being hate fucking yourself. Yeah.
  • [19:58] Keith: Okay, yeah.
  • [20:14] Keith: Yeah, yeah I thought that was good wordplay as well I can't remember the context to which that came up. But yeah, there was some somebody posted a thing about I don't I can't remember this isn't good content all right.
  • [20:02] Mike: He thought that was amusing. Yeah.
  • [20:19] Mike: It was yeah they had sex with somebody who they didn't like plateau pop people can go back. It was episode 69 if people want to go hear what we're talking about it was at the beginning of the episode so you don't have to go far all right.
  • [20:48] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah I mean careful listeners will also have noticed that we haven't done a porn segment for a while new listeners. We often watch a porn and or a segment of a porn.
  • [20:53] Mike: Oh.
  • [21:24] Keith: And then review it but we haven't done that for a few episodes you sent me a porn but you told me it's really good and so I haven't watched it because but saving it for next time I masturbate and you only send it to me a couple days ago and I have not masturbated in the last couple days I just
  • [21:39] Mike: Wow.
  • [22:04] Keith: Yeah, I'm going for a cal ripkin like streak here of not masturbating him on two days so wish be luck.
  • [22:00] Mike: I'm actually just nervous about I'm nervous about the the the like next I feel bad for like the next 4 sheets on your paper towel roll or whatever just gonna be.
  • [22:30] Keith: Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna have to get the real heavy absorbent stuff.
  • [22:25] Mike: Yeah, so we I like the the problem with watching porns on the show. Well in our opinion actually nobody's really complained about it and some people say they really they bad. Whatever people people enjoy it. 1 person said a woman said that it makes listening to us watch the porn makes her horny and I was like well that's pretty cool. That's.
  • [23:01] Keith: There.
  • [23:20] Keith: Bria.
  • [23:04] Mike: Also think really unusual. But ah yeah, it's the thing of us watching it live and commentating as it goes could be boring for listeners. Um, but yeah, we have this one so so ah do you want to somehow comment on it Keith or is it. You want to hold it hold it in reserve. Okay.
  • [23:33] Keith: Yeah.
  • [23:48] Keith: Now I Want to watch it I want to hold it in reserve So officially for next time I jack off and then ah maybe I'll discuss whether it got me there or not.
  • [23:42] Mike: Okay, that makes sense.
  • [23:58] Mike: It's too bad. Well it but well it's it's it's a really high quality one that got it I just want to say that it it was there was this um purge that was done by http://pornhub.com and this was maybe a year ago now maybe longer. Okay, and and basically they.
  • [24:36] Keith: Oh boy I think it was longer than that Mike.
  • [24:33] Mike: Imposed or enforced I should say some kind of requirement for more documentation about the things that have been uploaded to remove um revenge porn and that sort of thing. But.
  • [24:57] Keith: Right? Yeah I mean it you know it needed to be basically professional and they lost like 90% of their content in the purge.
  • [25:04] Mike: Right? And so ah, this is one that was removed and the the reality is this was a professional one like almost all of them are It's just that. Yeah, the reuploads the thing that's complicated is there's just no incentive for people to reupload so they're gone this one I was able to find using. Ah.
  • [25:38] Keith: Well, right.
  • [25:41] Mike: Ah, some clever some deft searching on tip of my penis the subreddit for finding things. So and and the reason I did that is because I was like gosh I Just really wish I had this one that I thought was really good and there are other people that think it's really good too. So yeah, okay, fine.
  • [26:07] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [26:23] Keith: All right? We should move on because we're not watching it today and this is boring. Okay, this person says she pulls the blanket over my head during oral to stay warm I'm kind of tired of suffocating ideas to provide a little context. My wife loves receiving oral and I love giving the problem being. She always wants to be under the blanket. She tends to pull the blanket over me while I'm eating her out I on the other hand get hot very easily and oddly enough like having an oxygen supply wondering if other people have this problem to come with solutions blah blah blah blah blah um, okay so this is the standard. She's laying down he is. On his knees or on his stomach going down on her. This isn't the most interesting topic but I just wanted to mention I'm a pretty skinny person I have a bmi little over 19 and a mild circulatory disease runs in my family so most of us run. Quite cold arousal reliably warms me up and after reading this I sort of thought to myself and I can't really remember a time that I felt cold during a sexual encounter. Do you have a similar experience.
  • [28:28] Mike: I do but ah, you're the more active partner typically in the encounter. There's 2 There are 2 things that make me think about that one is that and the second one is I mean of course there's we can. There's there's a there's a suspicion one can immediately have about this man's encounters but I would point out that you know.
  • [29:02] Keith: I Guess yeah.
  • [29:24] Keith: Yep.
  • [29:07] Mike: He he probably is doing this activity to move her from the less aroused to the more aroused state and so like there could be some kind of transition issue. Um during which she's I don't want to say frigid but cold. Yeah now. Obviously there's yeah well you could be the conspiracy theorist here and say she's never becoming aroused which is entirely possible. Also.
  • [30:02] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah I mean that was my thought I mean. Okay, so first off in the mail case. The thing that causes erections is increased blood flow to your penis does the body. Have the ability to sort of redirect blood flow specifically to the penis I guess it sort of does I know it can redirect blood flow to the stomach during digestion. But my thought was if you have an erection. It may be sort of hard to be cold because your body's doing something to improve circulation.
  • [30:56] Mike: Wait a minute wait wait so is so this is ah is a this like we should. We can make a a little ah a little clips show of funny Anatomy funny Keith Anatomy moments is your is your expectation that the reason you get an erection is just because your blood pressure goes up.
  • [31:20] Keith: And your body.
  • [31:34] Mike: Broadly so like any basically your body's strategy is it raises the blood pressure in any part of the body that would erect itself when blood pressure is higher erects itself. Yeah I don't think that's right I think that there are yet so there are specific structures pelvic structures that specifically.
  • [32:08] Keith: I Suppose that is what I was saying yes.
  • [32:12] Mike: Ah, erect the penis and I don't think yeah I mean look normally sexual activity is going to have associated with it. You know it's exercise and there's going to be some amount of.
  • [32:47] Keith: Does that extend to other places in the body like can my my body send for example, asymmetrical blood flow to maybe my right arm and not my left.
  • [32:55] Mike: Definitely I mean I mean an obvious example of that is That's why when you that's one This is one of the reasons why if you cut yourself, You don't just like let's say you get a moderates cut to your skin on your right arm. You don't just die of losing all your blood.
  • [33:39] Keith: I Thought that was because I thought that was because capillary wounds could clot quite quickly and arterial wounds like if you slice an artery on your right hand I don't know if there are arteries that reach your hands. But if.
  • [33:25] Mike: But your body's able to reduce the blood flow.
  • [33:50] Mike: It depends on how yeah no, you can slice you can slice something where your body can't do it. That's true. That's right, but you right I mean there's there's obviously like a distinction to be made there like if you yes people shouldn't people shouldn't at home start so slitting their wrists thinking. Oh don't worry Mike said. Ah Mike said.
  • [34:22] Keith: Okay.
  • [34:26] Mike: My body will stop the blood flow. No I mean yeah, there's a limit. There's a limit to this but but yeah I can it can reduce the blood flow. It's not I think it's not just at the capillary level. It's at some intermediate stage there and so yeah, so.
  • [34:48] Keith: Ah, okay.
  • [35:01] Keith: Okay, okay, all right? Okay, so then I guess I can imagine that it's possible to get cold. But I mean at it.
  • [34:57] Mike: I Like the idea of it just being blood pressure in general though. So like you just said all these like crazy things would start protruding from your body. Just.
  • [35:30] Keith: I don't think it's 100% directed like to the extent, the body can direct blood flow. It's probably you know 60% that and then 40% also your blood pressure going up or something now. Yeah.
  • [35:39] Mike: There's yeah, there's some amount of it's like exercise you're going to get some amount of faster Pulse. You know all these sorts of things and ah but part of that is just because as the more active partner you're moving and so you're you are actually exercising. But if you're just lying there I mean I think. Okay, you've never like been beating off and had your feet get cold or something. Yeah, yeah, right? So It's so this has but it's it's it's gonna be None. It's partly the movement. But so yous and and partly the so we kind of sexual response and so she yeah she's lying there like she's not moving. Yeah.
  • [36:35] Keith: Yeah, like as I have now that you mention it? yeah.
  • [37:06] Keith: Okay, that's all I mean I don't know what he should do cut a hole in the blanket I don't know ice pack.
  • [36:57] Mike: I Like that idea so it's then we have a a glory blanket Glory hole blanket. That's nice. Well, that's you know that is like there are other religious sects or like I don't know if they exist anymore but were the way they would have sex is through a a hole in a blanket. Yeah I think that was a.
  • [37:43] Keith: I Don't know.
  • [37:35] Mike: I want to say maybe like amish or something but that's probably not right. It's not weird Keith it's spiritual. Ah, it's a spiritual garment which is worn as to show their deference and fealty to um, the heavenly father. Yeah.
  • [37:54] Keith: Um, who is it that wears the weird underwear is that mormons.
  • [38:22] Keith: Okay, so yeah, it's the mormons with the weird underwear. Okay, this words it says ah all right? This is a little dark and I and I'm not sure I don't want this to sound mocking. But ah anyway, all right here goes. Um, 42 and em a virgin I know it sounds pathetic but the love of my life died twenty one years ago and I never had any interest in dating after that till recently and sex scars the hell out of me. It's a man. Oh ah, okay, it is not but.
  • [38:54] Mike: Wait is this a man or a woman. Okay sorry I I that was probably said and I missed it? Yeah yeah, because it was more believable if it was a woman. Oh you sure now are you like? okay.
  • [39:36] Keith: I Just yeah I just assumed it was a man. Yeah, well let's keep reading all right? Let's see Honestly, it's not even the sex I'm looking for just the emotional connection and someone to grow old with okay that sounds female but still being inexperienced at this age I'm afraid is a death sentence and I need to some advice.
  • [39:38] Mike: Now it's.
  • [40:15] Keith: Reddit you do some school some schooling as well. Do I tell them or do I not any tips for dating as this old of a virgin I know a lot of people are going to say to learn a woman's anatomy. Okay, so it's a man I have a master's in psychology and I have other yeah.
  • [40:00] Mike: I Also just had a stroke. Yeah.
  • [40:23] Mike: Ah, okay, probably.
  • [40:52] Keith: And I have other educational accomplishments related to pathology So Anatomy is something I learned fairly very early on Okay, well this person is a virgin so they can't know this but yeah, anatomical knowledge is not particularly useful. Ah.
  • [40:56] Mike: So as I've learned as I've learned this. Ah yeah, it's not a yeah.
  • [41:23] Keith: Yet, you are you are 99 board None percentile in anatomy and well I've never had sex with you. But yeah, get the job done sometimes and then he goes on to say how the love is lifetime. That's not.
  • [41:17] Mike: A None Yeah I'm okay.
  • [42:02] Keith: Relevant here just a bit sad. Ah okay, what number of women I I think this person is right to feel some insecurity around this I think if a woman. Got into a relationship with someone and they really cared for them. They would think okay, well let's give it a shot and see what happens but I think women in their forty s are probably used to partners that at least have some amount of competence. Some amount of self-assuredness some amount of you know self-esteem around having sex and the task that this person the patience that this person is imposing on a new partner is pretty brutal like I think a lot of women. If they knew before a None date would just be like yeah no, do you do you? disagree.
  • [43:47] Mike: Oh no I think there are some women that would romanticize it and think like basically oh well, you know I can if I can be the second love of his life then that's it I found my partner and I think that would be like this. This story could be appealing to someone not to me.
  • [44:13] Keith: Yeah, well.
  • [44:30] Keith: Okay, of course there are religious I was going to say nut jobs. There are religious people who would go for this actually even prefer it. Okay, there are also yeah I agree there's also.
  • [44:22] Mike: But to a woman.
  • [44:32] Mike: No, it's not just that It's like it's sentimental. It's sentimental. It's like oh you know.
  • [45:10] Keith: People who have weird mind constructs generally I don't think that the the set is 0 But I think the set of Twenty year olds who would tolerate this is x the set of thirty year Olds is x minus something and the set of forty year Olds is x minus something minus something else like I think people.
  • [44:56] Mike: Yeah, 6
  • [45:47] Keith: Might not want to deal with this.
  • [45:29] Mike: When you say this, you're not talking about I see I Actually think that a woman would be more concerned about him not knowing how to be in a relationship with someone than in that right? Yeah, and also I mean you would wonder like what.
  • [46:05] Keith: Yeah, there's a whole suite of problems here. Yeah yeah.
  • [46:06] Mike: What happened to this guy. What's his deal I mean what like what happened during those 21 years I mean maybe the first two years it's understandable but years like it's like what happened in years 3 through 7 here sir so that's it's it's a little bit strange. Um the standard advice and I think it's good advice and this is usually advice given to people to men who are like.
  • [46:36] Keith: Right? yeah.
  • [46:45] Mike: You know nineteen who have this concern or or 22 or I guess like the 30 year old virgin not like somebody this who's made it this far. Um, and this specific kind of story but this the teasable advice I think would be actually to go to an escort and like just tell them what's going on so that way and the reason you tell them what's going on at least in general is so that.
  • [47:16] Keith: Um.
  • [47:25] Mike: Won't You'd basically say I'm not looking for a porn star experience I'm looking for just like a normal experience so that I can like know what's going to happen on the other hand.. Ah yeah I sort of don't exactly know what he's afraid of like he could just watch a bunch of videos and then ah it could be kind of fun for him like it could be an exciting. Be kind of cool to be that age and a virgin. It's like oh here's this new thing I get to experience.
  • [48:25] Keith: Yeah I'm sure he's been Okay I guess I'm not sure I presume he's been masturbating right.
  • [48:24] Mike: Maybe yeah yeah, maybe I mean he could also be gay. There's all yeah I guess that that's like always an unstated like we get a lot of we get a number of emails from men where I first thought is this guy's gay. So yeah.
  • [49:06] Keith: Right? Yeah I mean it is a little bit hard to create a situation where everything else is sort of equal amongst other date eligible men in your 40 s and the only weird thing about him is that he's a version. Maybe he was married for you know. 20 years and his partner suffered some sort of horrible disfigurement and sex was impossible and so that's why he's a virgin but he is capable of.
  • [49:45] Mike: I'm confident that in in marriage situations where that happens like some really high percentage of the time probably in the 90 s there's some negotiated thing where the guy has sex with prostitutes or something like that's not I mean it's kind of funny because it's like that's a great example of a thing where our society's just insane.
  • [50:19] Keith: Right? right.
  • [50:18] Mike: Society would basically say oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, you should just be a virgin forever or whatever. Whatever be what you call that celibate and I know that basically 0 couples would do that if they stay together at all the guy would have some outlet so it's a little weird. This guy's story's a little weird. It's hard to understand how.
  • [50:22] Keith: Okay, so I think there's basically no way to construct a scenario where a man becomes 42 and is a virgin and doesn't have an elaborate set of. Weirdnesses that cause that because a normal person would have various drives that made because still being a virgin at 42 sort of impossible.
  • [50:47] Mike: Right? And anybody who's watched the maury povit show even once knows that some pretty http://odd/unattractive/ messed up people are able to have sex. So yeah.
  • [51:34] Keith: Yeah I Yeah well yeah, what do they say is it desperation is the mother of invention people figure it out all right? Let's go on oh necessities that yeah whenever right.
  • [51:23] Mike: Yeah, Necessity Ne necessitysities the mother invention not but desperation would do it too. Yeah.
  • [52:08] Keith: I Mean yeah, you can sort of squabble about whether sex is ah a need or a desperate want. But yeah anyway, ah okay, this person says I'm being ignored after heat. After his came in his pants but she means to say after he came in his pants. My friend dipped after he came in his pants before we were about to have sex I think he was just nervous because he was about to have his None time but he just left without warning after saying sorry he has't texted her called me so I feel like he's going to ignore me for a really long time because he might have thought I was making fun of him. Just couldn't understand how it could happen and I thought he was joking around at first I know it's going to be really awkward if he does stop ignoring me anytime soon. Why would it be awkward if he's ignoring. Whatever is it even worth trying to have sex with him again. How am I supposed to deal with the awkwardist now and if it happens again. How do I comfort him that it's okay. Have you ever accidentally and okay, it's gonna say if you ever accidentally Orgasm I have there have been times when I wish I wouldn't have and I have but not from overpants stimulation I don't think. Even when I was a teenager.
  • [54:11] Mike: Right? Ah, that is that is correct for me. In fact I I remember ah ah, kind of early experiences as as a teenager having it be sort of the opposite having having had enough personal ah access to various video and other content.
  • [54:57] Keith: Oh.
  • [54:50] Mike: That I Ah yeah was actually the opposite direction. It was like oh I I have to sort of like think you know, get myself to nut here. It was like not easy.
  • [55:31] Keith: Right? Yeah I would I would have partners when I was in my teens and you know we would be like what I call it dry humping each other with our clothes on. And yeah, you know if I'm wearing jeans or if she's wearing jeans. It's just not that comfortable right.
  • [55:39] Mike: Right? Well I mean I yeah look at.
  • [56:10] Keith: Um, now I mean I was young and horny So whatever I tolerated it but it wasn't yeah.
  • [55:51] Mike: I Think it's I can see how it happens though and and and I should mention also that this there's kind of a rather unsavory ah set of porn dedicated to this particular situation for so no like we're a woman or whatever somebody.
  • [56:40] Keith: Dry humping.
  • [56:30] Mike: Um, Manipulates a guy's penis through say his underwear and then he it just you get to see the underwear get wet and that's that's the porn I don't Okay, yeah, it's just right? Okay, so we watched one. Yeah, that's it's a drag.
  • [57:11] Keith: Oh yeah, you showed me this like 15 episodes ago or something. Yeah.
  • [57:04] Mike: It's yeah, it's It's hard to understand what people get out of it. But I'm sure Actually we have a listener who's like and that's my fetish So there you go? Yeah, but this is not This is not actually no I Sometimes I do want a kink shame this one's just kind of stupid in my opinion but the ah ah the person here was it was accidental.
  • [57:41] Keith: Right? What a King shame.
  • [57:42] Mike: Yeah, was not part of a kink right? It was just just happened and yeah, but you always read that women are kind of flattered by this I mean the truth is they don't really care like men. Yeah I mean it's the the thing I say every 5 episodes or something like you know to the man you know his ejaculation seems like you know the world stops and ah.
  • [58:42] Keith: Right.
  • [58:22] Mike: You know earthquakes happen. You know the world gets dark. It's just like you know it's like it's like the None coming of of Jesus and for the for the other for the other partner. It's just like this you know finger of flesh squirts out some gunk.
  • [59:14] Keith: Yeah I think for I think in a teenaged mind teenaged male mind he thinks something like if I was hooking up with a girl and suddenly she did something where where she immediately said we're done. We're We're stopped. We're not. Hooking up anymore that would be you know, epically disappointing to the to the boy but for a woman if the guy accidentally orgasms and is you know and that sort of ends the encounter. Ah the girls. Yeah, all right? You know. Maybe she's at at worst Mildly disappointed. But yeah, she's not going to. She doesn't have as they say blue balls in the way that a man does and so some do yeah.
  • [1:00:16] Mike: Some women do but I have a question for you. Do do you remember? do you remember as because I do remember to some extent this type of feeling. Do you remember kind of being because obviously by the time you had your None orgasm with a partner you'd had.
  • [1:01:16] Keith: Many many many by myself. Yes.
  • [1:00:52] Mike: Maybe a thousand by yourself. Let's just let's just say on the order of a thousand. Um, so were you did that you know give you pause at all like basically oh there's this thing you know, usually like let's say there are a lot of things that you do kind of in the bathroom or whatever or least some that you kind of do privately and you expect to do privately. You know more or less the rest of your life. You're like okay this is a private activity and I think one of the reluctances around this for a teenage or a young man is this is a thing that you learn is private for various reasons right? I mean it's something where you're you know you spend time making sure say your parents don't see you doing it people talk about getting caught and so forth. And then it suddenly becomes semi-public activity. Do you remember being having any sort of reluctance or concern about that that transition.
  • [1:02:48] Keith: Ah I remember I mean the first person I had sex with was living with her mother and she was her Mom was a.
  • [1:02:46] Mike: No, this is getting hot.
  • [1:03:29] Keith: Attractive lady gosh she was probably my age. She's probably she's probably younger than me gosh. Yeah, that's that's a little weird. Um, but yeah, my None sexual partner. The concern was finding a time.
  • [1:03:04] Mike: Um, that's good.
  • [1:04:08] Keith: When we could have sex where her mom wasn't home and.
  • [1:03:52] Mike: Ironic because later later. Perhaps you would have and if you had been more intelligent. It would have been just quite the opposite.
  • [1:04:24] Keith: Oh yeah, there was ah no way that there was even my wildest fantasies of yeah of scoring with her mom like that that wasn't in in my consideration.
  • [1:04:25] Mike: That's too bad. Okay, so you so you were concerned primarily about not getting caught which oh so then you which which would be the same concern or effectively the same concern that you have when masturbating right? You don't want to get caught but you don't remember sort of I don't know.
  • [1:05:12] Keith: Yeah, oh I see yes. Okay, yeah, yeah I was a little bit I mean of course yeah I was a little bit body conscious or shy or.
  • [1:04:56] Mike: Ah, hey what will I look like what will this person's essential. It's it's analogous to oh I'm in a poop in front of somebody else right.
  • [1:05:49] Keith: Worried about how things would go. Yeah, yeah.
  • [1:05:25] Mike: Well in particularly like what was the None ah, where was your penis. The None time you orgasmed with this first partner. Oh.
  • [1:06:11] Keith: I think the progression was something like a dry humping Orgasm Hand Job Orgasm blowjob orgasm PIVOrgasm I think it was something like that.
  • [1:06:18] Mike: Whoa whoa whoa. So the dry humping orgasm is in underwear. It's basically this exact thing. So Keith I feel like you're not being totally honest with the audience here. Oh okay, so you.
  • [1:06:51] Keith: Yeah, yeah, but but she was but we were we were trying to do it. We were trying to do it This guy apparently was not trying to.
  • [1:06:51] Mike: I Never engage in this activity as a ever in my life Actually so you actually had a period of your life. Well I mean not no, not as ah, not as an end in and of itself you actually had a period in your life. However, brief when for you sex was just dry humping and then you would nut in your pants and then what would happen afterward.
  • [1:07:20] Keith: Dry humping.
  • [1:07:41] Keith: Yep.
  • [1:07:29] Mike: You just leave.
  • [1:07:58] Keith: Ah, burn my clothing. Ah yeah I don't remember I mean like this is a long time ago I I.
  • [1:07:36] Mike: Yeah. Or you would You're you're like a plot twist I would wear my sleeping bag.
  • [1:08:26] Keith: Keep it at the drug of like are yeah I Yeah I Um I don't remember I think just kind of have a bit of a mass in my underwear for for a while? Yeah yes.
  • [1:08:03] Mike: Fear.
  • [1:08:22] Mike: Do you think she knew that you were orgasming. Okay huh if that just seems like so do yeah I mean on the can you give an order of magnitude of how many times this happened before you progress to the hand job phase.
  • [1:09:03] Keith: Yeah.
  • [1:09:20] Keith: Um, no, but it was something on the order of 10 So it might have been as much as 25 but it was more than 5
  • [1:09:18] Mike: And how many times from did you say it went try humping hand job blowjob I think that was your cadence. Okay, and how do you have any idea of how many hand jobs had to happen before the blowjob. Okay, and the reason I asked this is because I'm I'm partly being prurient.
  • [1:09:56] Keith: And yeah. No I.
  • [1:09:55] Mike: But I'm partly because my None experience with a partner was actually a blow.
  • [1:10:28] Keith: Wow that must have been nice. Just go just go. You're going from like 0 to 70 there.
  • [1:10:09] Mike: Ah, she was a little she was. She was moderately more experienced than me and ah well I Guess infinitely more on some level and I was ah I had experience through various reading and. As we've discussed ah just sort of general interest in the subject matter and so I was able to skip those earlier stages by simply appearing more ah knowledgeable than I In fact was so I did not reveal to her my status I simply thought and so and so but but so the reason I bring that up is that like that was a.
  • [1:11:24] Keith: Right.
  • [1:11:14] Mike: Pretty rude transition right? I mean I I did have some not Qualms but I was sort of I was like Wow you Know'm ah in my car here. We were in a car. Ah and I'm like now now I'm going from beating off to she's going to swallow my nut and that was like huh.
  • [1:11:52] Keith: Yeah.
  • [1:12:06] Keith: Did you do did you do anything weird like I remember I think it was for like homecoming my junior year I invited out this girl and I got my dad let me borrow his car and I.
  • [1:11:50] Mike: And she swallowed. Yeah.
  • [1:12:46] Keith: Took it to the car wash and you know I won think it was like a 1983 Ford Tourrus or something I mean this is a real shit box of a car but you know I wanted to get it as dice as possible and they offered. Some sort of spray to make it smell like it had like new car smell and I was like oh yeah, sure. Yeah yeah, do that you know so they did and it it smelled like a chemical factory after that like I was so embarrassed I remember I rolled out all the windows hoping it would like dissipate before I picked her up but it didn't and.
  • [1:13:14] Mike: Oh.
  • [1:13:59] Keith: I went to pick her up and whatever she didn't care but I was like super panicked about it. The reason why I bring this up did you know the day that you were going to get your None blowjob that you were going to and if so did you do anything like weird with your penis to prepare it.
  • [1:14:00] Mike: I didn't know that but that twisted they did you che queer so I will say I did and ah my my experience. My experience was not ah the most normal it was I think Junior year of high school as well. However, um.
  • [1:14:37] Keith: Okay.
  • [1:14:31] Mike: I knew it would happen because the previous day or two days before I'm not sure the timeline escapes me a little ah I had ah given her an orgasm on an airplane. Ah so my None time giving a woman orgasm orgasm what's on an airplane.
  • [1:15:23] Keith: When you're on an airplane with your girlfriend. How old how old were you.
  • [1:15:10] Mike: Ah, we were ah we were coming back from a school trip. Yeah, and so we were we were on the airplane sitting next to each other and I managed to manually stimulate her just with a blanket over the 2 of us on the airplane and so my success in that led her to.
  • [1:15:39] Keith: Ah, okay.
  • [1:15:58] Keith: Wow.
  • [1:15:50] Mike: Confide in me that she regretted not being able to reciprocate. Um, ah because it's just too complicated to do that in a closed and um, ah you know, peopled environment like that and so then it was very clear. No.
  • [1:16:38] Keith: Is it She could have given you a hand job that's tricky. It's it's tricky.
  • [1:16:25] Mike: It's true, but we but but but I neglected to mention 2 additional facts fact one is that well fact, one is that I didn't want to ejaculate into a um ah an airline blanket which is just I mean I I think I even at that tender age I I had some social consciousness. So bravo for me.
  • [1:17:13] Keith: Airplane blanket. Yes.
  • [1:17:02] Mike: And fact two is that I was in the middle seat she was in the window seat and on the aisle seat was like my best friend So I certainly did and so and so I remember later telling him that I had done that to her with him present and he really actually was pretty angry with me just the fact that I'd done that and because I thought it was kind of cool and he did not think it was cool.
  • [1:17:36] Keith: Okay.
  • [1:18:03] Keith: Um, maybe he was jealous. Okay.
  • [1:17:41] Mike: Ah I know I think he didn't think it was cool I think he was like come on man like don't don't do that I was like okay sorry and then ah, but but he would have been unbelievably upset if I had the the next activity had happened with him sitting there and he also would have noticed because the blanket would have been bouncing up and down.
  • [1:18:37] Keith: Right? right? right? right? right.
  • [1:18:17] Mike: So anyway, the net of this is that ah some number of days. Maybe the next day you know it was very clear that we were going to get together and go somewhere that was not anybody's parents house and she was going to show me what she could do because she was sort of impressed with my. I was sort of impressed with myself I did ah play musical instruments as a child and maybe that helped my finger dexterity. Ah yeah.
  • [1:19:21] Keith: Well let's put a little tab on that for a None but continue.
  • [1:19:06] Mike: Oh and she was actually the thing that she was most impressed with was simply the fact that like I knew which structures to access on her body right? like I think most guys do not do the extensive reading research that I know people at least some people come to this podcast to hear about.
  • [1:20:03] Keith: Right.
  • [1:19:42] Mike: And even at that age I knew exactly where I needed to place my fingers and what to do and ah generally the amount of pressure to apply and so forth and so I think she was very surprised that I was able to like accomplish that and it wasn't a very long plane flight either? yes.
  • [1:20:13] Keith: Impressive.
  • [1:20:26] Keith: Okay, this is it. This is ah this is the right time to open the tab then what percent chance Do you assign to whether she actually came.
  • [1:20:18] Mike: No no. I think it's very high very high and that's because ah, I'm going to say like a hundred ninety nine yeah the reason I say that is because ah, no.
  • [1:20:59] Keith: Okay, give give me a number.
  • [1:21:14] Keith: Okay I would say eighty but I.
  • [1:21:00] Mike: Well sure hearing this story I would say that too. In fact I would be skeptical of myself. The reason I'll give you more context. Um, subsequently given the knowledge that you have in the tender age I was at I think that's very reasonable. Ah subsequently I had many more opportunities to do this activity and to see her response cycle and.
  • [1:21:33] Keith: 80 s being kind I think.
  • [1:22:00] Keith: Okay I see.
  • [1:21:39] Mike: Ah, and and and that included by the way being in a position where she was on a couch and I was sort of lower than her and so I could see the contractions because I was very interested in this stuff even at that age and I was like oh I can I can see what's happening so I was very confident and the response cycle was like identical.
  • [1:22:17] Keith: Yeah. Right? right. Ok, all right.
  • [1:22:13] Mike: And it turned out and maybe this is by luck I had happened to do the right things for her without her telling me so I maybe there was a certain amount of luck for sure like yeah.
  • [1:22:48] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah I mean that this has to be somebody that can that can come from that somebody who isn't ah shy or embarrassed to be sitting on a full airplane right? like it it. It had to be her.
  • [1:22:50] Mike: Um, she had a pretty high. She had a pretty high sex drive that like she ah she was one of these people I think this is relatively common relatively common that like when maybe maybe you had a similar experience but you see you probably didn't in high school. Ah she was. Essentially if we we would typically have like trysts at her house right after school because her parents didn't get home for a couple hours and ah she would require that she came first like every time every time So She yeah well and like she had the a high enough libido that like she didn't she wanted.
  • [1:24:12] Keith: I see good for her.
  • [1:24:06] Mike: Comment every time like I don't and like we wouldn't have a tryst if she was like on her period. She's like no so very very transactional which which I actually enjoyed. Yeah ah, but but but Keith okay so on this on this topic of the ah the your little progression through the hand job.
  • [1:24:40] Keith: Yeah, yeah, okay.
  • [1:25:05] Keith: Ah, yeah, right? okay.
  • [1:24:46] Mike: And to the blowjob so there was no point. Okay, so the the thing I was thinking is that since I transitioned directly to a blowjob like the kind of fear that I had or whatever anxiety was around I guess just generally like the loss of control of the orgasm with a woman I was like oh that'll that'll be interesting because I knew there was like this.
  • [1:25:40] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah.
  • [1:25:23] Mike: Period of time when like I didn't fully control my body or whatever and secondly ah it was just you know oh she's going to have this in her mouth like that was sort of weird. But I think it would have been way more and that's why I'm curious about this if it was a hand job if I knew. Yeah, that's more. It's more embarrassing right? It's like this isn't I'm going to pee into a toilet. This is I'm going to pee all over myself right.
  • [1:26:27] Keith: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, So I think I was less sophisticated in my thinking than I think I would have thought I think I did think that a hand job would be much better for her. Then a blowjob like there's sort of this notion of the bases right? You know so I don't even remember what they are exactly. But I think I thought that a blowjob was bad in a way that a hand job wasn't and so.
  • [1:27:22] Mike: Here.
  • [1:27:54] Keith: I wouldn't I now I feel like having my girlfriend give me a hand job would be significantly more embarrassing than ah than a blowjob but back then I think I would have viewed it as as as superior for her.
  • [1:27:46] Mike: Right.
  • [1:27:59] Mike: Okay, but it's but it's interesting that you're putting your mind yourself in the mind of in her mind and her experience That's actually not what I'm going for the question is like it's embarrassing for you because you not only can she see you ah because her face is not in your crotch but secondly ah.
  • [1:28:47] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah.
  • [1:28:38] Mike: You were squirting out this substance all over your belly or something like that didn't you weren't you't have any trepidation about you're like oh you that you in before that you were dry humping where like it's kind of hidden from right and I would think that for her that was kind of surprising too. It's like oh what's happening here. You know.
  • [1:29:05] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  • [1:29:29] Keith: Maybe because of the way that I masturbated as a child I wasn't as sensitive about that or maybe I'm just not remembering being sensitive about that. But yeah I would often whatever masturbate give myself hand jobs. Um, while.
  • [1:29:17] Mike: Yeah, checkca. Okay.
  • [1:30:08] Keith: Sitting at my computer and so the notion of there being some gunk that gets everywhere wasn't super unusual to me or gross it is now but I think and then.
  • [1:30:08] Mike: Um, okay, it's embarrassing is what I'm looking for. But yeah.
  • [1:30:47] Keith: Yeah I I was embarrassed about some stuff surely I Just don't remember the contours of it.
  • [1:30:29] Mike: Okay, I mean I think but I think that this is at the root of this question of why some white Why a guy would basically run away because he nuts in his underwear or something like that a young guy. It's based I think it's just yeah I mean like he's already got some embarrassment about this thing. His body does um in the same way that a.
  • [1:31:15] Keith: I Say right.
  • [1:31:04] Mike: A girl a teenage girl would be embarrassed if she was on a date and wearing white pants and like there's blood on them because she got her period or whatever like it's not actually embarrassing right? It's just a bodily function. Although I mean even like look any adult would be embarrassed if like something involving poop happened right? and you know like you want to live your life.
  • [1:31:39] Keith: Right.
  • [1:31:40] Mike: In a way that you pretend for all the people around you that you don't poop and pretty much everybody does and so you know this I think goes along those lines and so it makes sense to me that he would be embarrassed and I do remember having some kind of trepidation and I I remember when transitioning from blows to PiV with actually the same partner.
  • [1:32:13] Keith: M.
  • [1:32:16] Mike: Ah, ah, having some embarrassment because like oh now she'll be able to see me while I orgasm right? So she's it's moving from her. Well actually we transitioned before that it was a lucky teenager man before that we transitioned to actually like kind of face face fucking.
  • [1:32:53] Keith: Meow. Yeah.
  • [1:33:15] Keith: Wow wow.
  • [1:32:50] Mike: Was actually like ah so she's like she's like my last boyfriend really liked it when he sat on my boobs and kind of fucked my face and I was like that sounds great. So I did that and that of course did but that did have the thing of her being able to see me while I was nodding. It was like oh don't love that. But then I got over that and then and then P I V had like even more right. She could see me.
  • [1:33:35] Keith: Right.
  • [1:33:48] Keith: Yeah I don't have fully formed memories of ah yeah, my my thoughts of embarrassment and and slowly conquering those I Just don't remember now. Yeah.
  • [1:33:29] Mike: More. So.
  • [1:33:44] Mike: Okay, yeah I think it's normal. It makes sense right? that logically.
  • [1:34:26] Keith: And I think we have time for well at least None more topic. Alright let me read this one. How do you come to peace with a sex life knowing you're the one who will always have to start things female. She's at this a 24 year old female after doing a lot of reading both here and online generally I think my boyfriend has responsive desire. We've talked about this before this is. A person who only gets aroused after someone else sort of initiates and indicates arousal toward them.
  • [1:34:49] Mike: Yeah, but importantly, just as a caveat here I've actually never heard this applied to a man so I don't think I don't think he has responsive desire because I don't really think that's a thing for men and and set. Yeah, and secondly what I'm not going to all right.
  • [1:35:32] Keith: Well, okay, that's that's why I chose this topic because hold on Mike Mike Mike Mike let me let me yeah, hold on. We've been together a year and recently I realized it was me doing 90% of the initiating. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying we don't have much sex. We do. Just only when I start things he's totally open to this and rarely turns me down unless he's tired and even then he's really good at saying. Let's do it tomorrow and following up on it. I've had all the obvious he mustn't find me attractive thoughts. So I talked to him. He says yes, he finds me attractive but he doesn't think about it much until I initiate I asked him to and said I didn't. I understood if I was initiating all the time. It wasn't leaving space for him to he said okay and then just did it. He did a few days later after I got upset and asked him what was going on I saw similar though not exactly the same dynamic play out of my last relationship here we go I didn't pan out.
  • [1:36:46] Mike: Oh.
  • [1:37:18] Keith: As he was as he wasn't interested at all after the honeymoon period died down and we separated amicably. However I tortured myself in a respective and in retrospect handled it terribly tried everything you can think of and all it did was nothing except prolong the agony I'm now finding myself not initiating at all and I don't want to start inventing. Covert contracts and feeling the cycle of disappointment and getting resentful. He'll have sex if I approach him so I'm not in a dead bedroom. He's not turning me down I just don't know where to go from here I'm mindful that I know he loves and deeply cares for me and I respect him so I want to communicate helpfully but I don't want to constantly be talking about things. You're asking. But why don't you want to initiate. Yourself because I know I wouldn't find that a turn on I also don't want to be putting in all the work and I don't know how to align all of this How do I come to peace and knowing my boyfriend doesn't have the desire to initiate all right. You can say you're unwoke.
  • [1:38:26] Mike: Okay I don't think it was gonna no, it's not unwoke at all I was gonna I wanted to say the None thing I wanted to say about about this generally which is that responsive desire is not typically it doesn't have to be about initiating. It's that a person. Begins to desire when they feel desired right? So it's like the core thing they want is to feel desired and so that could be about initiating but it actually doesn't exactly have to be about initiating it. It could just be like something someone says or ah, meaning the the initiating part or there there are various things that could cause the person to feel.
  • [1:39:36] Keith: Yeah.
  • [1:39:41] Mike: Desired and then that like turns them on so it's like they're feeling desired and the reason I say that is that it's that actually reinforces the notion that's sort of unusual. That's not really, Ah, this isn't really how like sex works too much for men. Ah women are much more likely to be kind of desired in that Way. Um. And and so the point is that like you the person who has the responsive desire could initiate the actual sex that's less important than who initiates the desire this guy honestly sounds like he's just not into his girlfriend or is gay. Yeah.
  • [1:40:55] Keith: Alright.
  • [1:41:11] Keith: I agree. Yeah I think that responsive desire from a man might be possible but generally yeah I Mean. You know all they say about entrepreneurs like if they've been successful once that doesn't really indicate anything about their future future chances of of being successful. But if they've been successful twice that means it's probably them that is ah causing causing the success I think that's sort of the case here like if.
  • [1:41:34] Mike: Nice.
  • [1:42:24] Keith: This was a 1 time thing then she could sort of blame it on the guy but this happened with her last partner too and that is I think particularly damning in this case now I don't know what she can do about that. There's nothing to be ashamed of there. It just sort of a.
  • [1:42:33] Mike: Ah, it could be something to be ashamed of because it could be something about attractiveness. It could yeah I mean it could be like physical. Yeah, 1 thing that I mean like a way to look at this is like I mean this is implying. It's responsive, but it's not really like let's say if you if you're showering with a guy with your partner and.
  • [1:43:03] Keith: Sad Well date could be. It could be. It could be.
  • [1:43:12] Mike: As a woman you do something somewhat overtly sexual like let's say you start rubbing your nipple I see this is the thing This is the thing about being a guy. Ah, this is one of the things about being a guy you can basically as a woman do this experiment you can do that something overtly sexual and just see if he gets an erection. There's no way for the guy to hide it.
  • [1:43:41] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [1:44:09] Keith: Right? right.
  • [1:43:51] Mike: Right? Um, and that's and that's essentially his cue that he's supposed to initiate his body will betray him and tell him to initiate um and a woman doesn't have to do that much.
  • [1:44:37] Keith: All right.
  • [1:44:27] Mike: Even frankly clothed a woman wouldn't have to do that much to trigger even a pretty jaded guy to having an erection like probably you might have to touch him a little or something but yeah and so and and what I'm suspecting in this situation is that if she did that experiment. Ah he wouldn't get an erection which makes me think yeah he could be Gay. She could be. In whatever way like not unattractive to him or just yes since yes since it's multiple partners maybe not attractive and so she needs to work on that or do what she can, Um, and and yeah, he's just like the the relationships about something else. Basically it's not about sex for the guy.
  • [1:45:57] Keith: Um, what do you think she can do to get some clarity on this.
  • [1:45:41] Mike: Well I mean the experiment that I suggested would be helpful because yeah, you're basically you're basically using his you're you're basically asking the question and you can do that to a guy in a way that it's hard to do to a woman maybe impossible like does this person actually find me attractive like as a male.
  • [1:46:14] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [1:46:20] Mike: It's sort of tricky because you just have to like you do really have to take a woman's word for it like sure you can do the things I talk about like with putting your finger up their butt or something to check for an orgasm but like just for attraction or Arousal. It's actually kind of complicated. Ah so you just have to sort of ask them. But for a woman you really can just check like just. Yeah, just like see does this give him an erection does this give him an erection and like yeah he can't really hide that.
  • [1:47:25] Keith: Sure Yeah I mean you need them to be naked in front of you but no, no I know she can do that. But this isn't like a generalizable technique that women can find out if a man is it is attracted to them. Although.
  • [1:47:13] Mike: Well, but they're dating So I mean.
  • [1:47:27] Mike: Um, oh this is not that big of an issue.
  • [1:48:05] Keith: Generalizable it. Yeah, the generalizable technique is are you attractive? Okay, then men are attracted to you. Theres that a whole lot of variance.
  • [1:47:50] Mike: Yeah, and I mean that yeah and in in the quote unquote normal situation. It's yeah I mean just flirt overtly right? and you'll you'll get your answer very quickly and and probably you'll get your answer and then some because it'll he'll It'll be hard to get rid of him that which is why women are reluctant to flirt.
  • [1:48:52] Keith: Right? Yeah yeah I mean she says that this guy responds when she initiates. Although maybe that's just sort of like an intermediate period and eventually he'll stop responding even to that I don't know.
  • [1:48:28] Mike: Overtly, But sure.
  • [1:48:58] Mike: I Think it might be.. He's easy supposed to he's Supposed. He's doing what he's sort of feels like he needs to do or something and maybe he's able to get in the mood by the way. The erection thing is part of the reason why the the male the sort of fantasy of going into like the women's locker room would actually be kind of lame. Thought about this right because you would just immediately have a huge direction which is you would just be really self-concious.
  • [1:50:07] Keith: Sure Yeah, but I mean you're already a man who got caught sneaky get to the women's locker room right? like I don't know if.
  • [1:50:01] Mike: Not necessarily caught Keith I was thinking about this actually in a men's locker room yesterday and I thought to myself I wonder I actually had this thought I thought what how minimal of a transition to being a female would I have to undergo to be in the women's locker room. So I mean you know as society changes.
  • [1:51:00] Keith: Well we live in California so very minimal.
  • [1:50:38] Mike: Ah, well I'll tell you ah you know as we have the covid return to work situation going on in in some places at least um and of course I know that many many many people return to work long ago but sort of knowledge workers Keith and I have a later. We're just we're just sort of pampered by society as we should be yeah, but ah, the the return to work situation which really there isn't one. That's that's the that's the the end of that. But what I want to say is that my company basically has a new office complex which is never going to be used because nobody's ever returning to work. That's the preview but they.
  • [1:51:44] Keith: We're privileged.
  • [1:51:55] Mike: Ah, to be as woke as possible and bravo to them. They have all Unisex bathrooms including ones with multiple stalls right? So that let that sink it. That's interesting. So so so you could have a man any woman pooping next to each other with ah that's the way I view it So I'm like yeah yeah, this is great, but okay so all.
  • [1:52:28] Keith: Um.
  • [1:52:44] Keith: So everything's a men's room. Basically.
  • [1:52:35] Mike: Most of them are single bathrooms to be fair. But I check that and not all of them but they have a gym on at the campus and the locker rooms are not are not unisex. Yeah, so let that you know think about that for a None So I mean they the wokeness only extends so far like woness wokeness will never ever.
  • [1:53:23] Keith: Yeah.
  • [1:53:13] Mike: Have a unisex locker room that actually happens. Yeah.
  • [1:53:46] Keith: I've long thought that the unisei Unisex bathrooms were sort of a almost like a f you to the to the Mob. You know it's like okay. Want us to have bathrooms for transgender people. Well then we'll just get rid of the bathrooms that are safe spaces for women and.
  • [1:53:53] Mike: Yeah, and and to your point to your point you you you said was sort of astute you said they're all men's rooms and that's right? But what? what? what? really the deep meaning of that is is that and I'm sure what you intended is that if a bathroom mess forest stalls. It's a men's room. No women are ever going to use that and the women now are obligated to use single.
  • [1:54:44] Keith: Right.
  • [1:54:55] Keith: Right? right? or they have to go to wherever this gym on your campus is and use the bathroom. That's hopefully in the locker room there. Yeah, they've they've just they look I don't know I don't know what should be done I don't know what should be done to accommodate.
  • [1:54:32] Mike: Bathrooms like in other words, None ne's 1 design for just one person. Yeah, that's correct. Right? Yeah, it's more It's actually more hostile.
  • [1:55:34] Keith: Ah, Trans folks but making the experience worse for all women in order to make it they should They should figure out a way to make it worse for men I don't know how to do that I need to meditate on that a little bit but making it.
  • [1:55:32] Mike: Oh the this. The solution is very simple. Of course it's to have ah 2 bathrooms. None bathroom is for ah biological women that is women who were assigned a sex female at birth and remain women I think everybody knows what that that is. And the other bathrooms for everyone else and same with the locker rooms.
  • [1:56:34] Keith: Yeah, people people would argue that's imposing on Trans folks especially Trans folks who identify as women.
  • [1:56:20] Mike: It I mean it sure. But I mean it imposes on me as well right? I mean it's you're just you're just you're basically it's sort of I mean what you're saying is you're saying that there's a ah, there's There's a specific reason and methodology by which you privilege. You're really privilegevileging.
  • [1:56:59] Keith: Um.
  • [1:56:58] Mike: Ah, the the women that are going to be targets of sexual harassment which is going to be biological and remaining women women. Yeah so Trans men who transition to being women are much less likely to receive kind of unwanted looks from men that want to have sex with them. Etc.
  • [1:57:35] Keith: Yeah, yeah, all right.
  • [1:57:38] Mike: So forth. Yeah, sure.
  • [1:58:05] Keith: We've waited far further into this that I want to so I'm going to kind of I'm going to move on I've been my hand is tired I've been using this this grip thing while we've been recording. Um. Anyway, that's about an hour anyway so let's wrap it up there. That'll do it for episode None of your mileage may vary. You can send us feedback or ask us questions at Ymmvpod on Twitter or by email at http://ymmvpod@http://gmail.comwerespondtoeverythingwegetthere. we pay a whopping $10 for feedback and particularly enjoy negative feedback since it can help us get better. So do your worst thanks to Mike thanks to you and we hope to have you back next time on your mileage may vary.