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Episode 83: Taboo Topics, Women Triaging Dates, Transitioning To Sex, Men Crying During Fingering

Team YMMV | 9-15-2022 | 1:05:24

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Reunited finally after Keith's long séjour in Europe, we wrap up our conversation about psychedelics before moving on to all manner of taboo (and honestly potentially triggering) topics.

Women often face the problem of a series of men who say more or less the same things on dating apps, so it's hard to know which first date will go well, and which will just be awful. Is there a better way for them to figure this out without wasting hours on terrible dates? Or, are the incels right and women are all just dating the top 10% of attractive guys anyway?

How bad is it if a guy starts crying during sex? What's the best way to transition to sex once your date has agreed to "come up to your place"?

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/83/fingering

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

  • [00:00] Keith and Mike: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is controversial but mostly in good faith I'm Keith my co-host is Mike and we are reunited at last broadcasting together here in San Francisco that's right good to be in the same room with you Keith after your extended trip. Broad. Yeah I was out of the country for something over 3 months ninety five days or something. Yeah, but it suits you well yeah I think we went to 18 countries depends if you include Kosovo as a country is that common not to include Kosovo. Something like Taiwan where the parent country the former parent country in this case, Serbia I was going to guess Serbia yeah does not recognize it. It is not formally recognized by the un but and so. Some people consider Kosovo to be province a breakaway province of Serbia yes, and in Serbia you see graffiti everywhere saying Kosovo is Serbia what is that written and like can you read it? Serb like it's in cyrillic. Okay, so both serbian and. So every one of these former yugoslavian countries speak a very similar language but they all insist they have their own so there's Montenegrin. There's servian right? There's kosova albanian is materially different from the rest but they weren't part of the former Yugoslavia anyway, this isn't interesting. We promised.
  • [01:33] Keith and Mike: That we would talk about psilocybin a bit at the end of the beginning of our last episode. Are you ready? Yeah let's do it. Okay, so for those who didn't listen to that episode. Ah Mike has recently tried. Some amount of psilocybin acquired through basically legal methods. Well yeah I have to be a little bit careful in what I say about how I got it because I think I signed a form when I joined this religious entity in the the East Bay of the San Francisco bay area said I wouldn't reveal certain things and and and actually like this the form specifically said that off I revealed things I would owe them $100000 it said that on the form wow so I'm a little reluctant to be too transparent about what it is so people can maybe email in and ask me directly about it. But yes, anyway, it's it's I think it's decriminalized is the right word. But I think technically these things are still illegal at the federal level. Okay, well so is marijuana a fair point. Yeah, ah, okay, and when you acquire from them is it in like a capsule form or sure. So. Ah, they have a menu and so I only bought ah now see the people who are listening who are who are familiar with shrooms will know the exact name. It's like I don't want to I don't want to it was one of the most basic types of shroom. There are multiple kinds and so the menu has like.
  • [03:04] Keith and Mike: A series of different possible things you can buy which is I don't really I didn't do much research on this I don't really understand what the difference is because I think they all contain the same active chemical right? But ah there are different sort of species or strains or something I mean I know with Marijuana there's what is it sativa.
  • [03:24] Keith and Mike: And Indica I think are the 2 main strains and 1 ne's supposed to be a bit more of an upper and one's a bit more of a downer is it like that or do you know Ah golden teachers. That's the kind of mushroom my god mushrooms pure plural. Ah I don't I don't actually know I the lady I did I mean I I knew enough to know which one was like basic one so I was like okay I know that it was also one of the least expensive ones. Um, and the lady behind the counter like said various stuff but she also had like a lot of piercings and I'm not sure if she was like a scientist. It's hard to disentangle thehoodoo from the. Actually legitimately interesting science here. You'll hear people for example, talk about different drunkenness is from different alcohol so they'll say I'm tequila drunk or I'm champagne drunk and I don't think I mean there's different amounts of sugars in those beverages but I don't think. Yeah I mean I don't I've never noticed I think I don't think there's a material difference in the in the highs from alcohol. Yeah, there is from marijuana and I have no idea about Psilocyin so I learned the word There's a word for a person who grows mushrooms. it's like ah a farmer and it's a good one. No no. Ah.
  • [04:42] Keith and Mike: Somebody. It's like a start an am I think I forgot the word not good ready I'll try to remember I learned that word. No, that's not I can do this all day. Um, okay, and so the reason you ah became interested in this was you had been. Experiencing some episodic anxiety issues and you wanted to experiment a bit with psilocybin to see if you could at least change the the shape of those is there that's right is there research that indicates that unguided. Micro or low macro trips can be therapeutic. There is there is some research on ah microdosing I should mention but that I at this facility I got ah I don't remember the exact quantity. Ah so I don't want to like but it was it was it was a material quantity enough to do. Multiple episodes of tripping. Ah and they also gave me 3 as like a party favor or something 3 capsules of something. Okay, that's like I'm supposedly a microdose and I actually tried one of those as well and it did something pretty different from the shrebs themselves that one just. Might have had Lsd and it or something it made colors much more vibrant which I've not find the psilocybin did but it was very low level of experience and yeah, there is some. There are some research studies there of course research studies suggesting that it's no better than placebo. Um, this stuff's pretty anecdotal and still hasn't been well researched right.
  • [06:15] Keith and Mike: Is there any research that talks about the difference between doing it guided with somebody with a therapist I think that everybody basically recommends that if you're going to take a medium or large dose that you have somebody there to help guide you because otherwise you could and this totally makes sense to me from these sort of. Small the medium dose that I experienced like you could definitely get into a situation where you're at best confused and at worst upset sure and in addition to that I would expect that to maximize the therapeutic or cognitive benefits having somebody there to sort of. I Don't actually know how you guide a mind that is tripping to behave differently when it's not around certain topics but just freeform taking it versus having somebody who has some experience helping people might could I could imagine might. Yeah, profoundly different. So Yeah I have some like thoughts on that from my experience and others were listening who have probably far more experience than I do might have more profound things to say but I'm not sure I think having a person there to help you in the case where you get very upset. Yeah, be very useful also somebody could. Get confused and do something Dangerous. You know, but well just fall off a wall or something mean there are things that you could do um outside of those kinds of situations I'm not actually sure that guiding you would be terribly useful and the reason why is because I think that the most profound part of the experience.
  • [07:50] Keith and Mike: Is like self-discover or yeah is basically well from my perspective. It's like you see a little bit about how your how your brain works and probably different personality people see different things. But I think that like from my experience there was like ah a certain amount of seeing like how the mechanisms. Um, mechanistically your brain is sort of creating the reality you experience and um, like that includes emotions that you experience things that seem very organic to your experience. You can sort of um. See on some level. How your how your brain is coming up with those things and I can see how that would help people with certain kinds of ailments I'm not sure if that's coherent like basically the way the way I described it to a friend after taking it was ah it's like if you had a computer that was trying to run the. Program that is a human person a human brain like you're taking away some of the processing power and so you have to see where it starts glitching So like you get these visual effects that to me just they give you a sense of how your brain actually processes visual inputs because it it doesn't have enough power to. Make the world feel Coherent. You also like get a sense of like um how ah I feel like I might have talked about this already on the show. You did Yeah, you talked about how your visual field sort of I don't know if you you described becomes very geometrical. Yeah it sort of like broke apart and you could.
  • [09:25] Keith and Mike: Imagine or you had some insight into the amount of processing that your brain's doing to sort of collect reality. Yeah, and the fact that like ah you realize that the the state where you are perceiving reality like it's normal is actually the much more complex Phenomenon. And the kind of messed up reality you experience on the drug is actually simpler in some ways for your brain to produce. There's a lot more chaotic orderings of the world than there are orderly orderings of the World. You have some sort of insight there. Yeah, this all sounds super interesting I Want to try and or know. I Do worry about downside risk and I think that you can mitigate that by simply not taking that much and then you can take more ah late you know a subsequent experience if you want but you get some idea of what's going on which is sort of my objective and yeah, yeah, so I didn't have um. Any really negative experiences I think partly because of that because I limited that Okay, but and we can move on shortly here, but your general hypothesis is not that it's like these hypnotism therapies where somebody to the extent that they're real in any case, somebody hypnotizes a person. And then carefully explains to them why they should stop smoking or some set of things and you need a trained professional to take advantage of you in the hypnotized state to get the behavioral changes. You're looking for your hypothesis is that mushrooms are different.
  • [11:00] Keith and Mike: It's more that by taking them you get more insight into how your mind works and then that can have some sort of benefit when you're not high that may help with depression or anxiety or addiction or various issues that people are eager to so. Research about. So Yeah I mean I wouldn't want to discourage someone from having a guide with them or someone helping them. However, it's not clear to me if you were taking a like medium to large dose that you would really be able to communicate that effectively with that person. But I'm not sure how much they could direct your experience. Yeah, and I think like yeah, there's probably some individual variability to what people experience on it. But that like the basic benefit from it is is to take reality a little less seriously because you get some insight into how things actually work. Yeah I don't know if the mic picked up the emergency vehicle. It did. Not um, um, okay and what is your do you think that you'll continue to experiment with this probably does it feel addictive in any Way. No, it's definitely not addictive. I don't know. Yeah I've heard people say that about Psychedelics. It's hard for me to. It depends on you have to define what you mean by addictive I Guess would you be tempted to do it when you're bored I don't know what's kind on out there would I be tempted to do when I'm bored maybe but that's not addiction I think is when you have a and a kind of compulsion to.
  • [12:34] Keith and Mike: Ah, to do something like. For example, if yeah, if you if you like alcohol takes away like I think a lot of people wind up consuming alcohol addictively because they it makes the calms them down so they find that that works and then it's like oh well I feel a certain way and so I'm going to use this substance I don't think there's any I think there's a. Ah way you would feel where you're like oh I need to get I need to trip now right? It's not going to solve a problem like that and so I think it doesn't There's I'm sure there's a much more biochemical way to describe addiction. Yeah okay Hum and I've experienced addiction before to a couple things. Yeah. Think most people have so I know I mean yeah yeah, you write just sweets or chocolate would be a thing you could be addicted to caffeine or whatever like you just yeah, you feel a certain way and you're like oh I know if I take this substance that feeling will go away and then repeat. That's like I think to me that's what the Hallmark of addiction. Okay. All right? Well I'm sort of interested I Probably do have a porn and beating off addiction yet people talk about being sex addicted. Not sure exactly what that means I Just think it's most men and some women right? but is there some. Point on the Bell curve where calling it addiction would be more appropriate than others. Yeah I mean I'm sure there are people that have just an intensely high sex drive. But I'm not sure that that's something that you really look.
  • [13:58] Keith and Mike: At some point people become like pedophiles or rapists right? So that's true, but that would be but I'm not sure if that would be constitute ah satisfying an addiction really that yeah I don't know I have a topic about rape that we could talk about if you want to? maybe you don't okay. Was Goingnna get into bestiality but do want to do rape for sure. Let's go so ah I've I've read repeatedly. There. Okay, this comes up enough that there are support groups around this and this is a wolf. Obviously there's support groups around rape setting that aside but a specific subt topic within that. Ah. It's fairly common apparently for women who are raped to have orgasms while being raped really yes and I had I've run across this in the last six months maybe 4 times First of all like as ah, you know as a man men are often dominant and so like the notion of. And I'm not interested in raping people but the notion of dominating somebody and then them orgasming in the sort of submissive way is compelling right? So like a pyrian interest there. Yeah ah, but but but I've really run across it more like in the context of just like reading various subreddits and stuff like that and coming across it. But apparently like it's fairly common. I'm guessing. There's some relationship between that and dominant submissive something in people's brains but then therapists might have having to spend a lot of time helping like people cope. Oh they guilty? Yeah, they? Well, there's like multiple aspects here. There. First of all, it's embarrassing right? because you're I mean.
  • [15:32] Keith and Mike: Yeah, this is like a trigger warning thing but you're being raped and now you're orgasming and the guy who's raping you is going to be like he's going to think that's awesome, right? That's like horrible right? and then on top of that. Yeah, the thing you said you feel guilty you feel like you're now you're not sure and also there's some connection between that and hypersexuality. That if you um, if you have that experience. It can then cause a coping behavior of somebody like just saying well fuck it I'm just going to seek out orgasms all the time or something. It's probably subconscious. It's not like a rise decision. Yeah so all of these things wind up being a thing that like has to be.
  • [16:08] Keith and Mike: Dealt ideally dealt with in therapy or something like that. But I wasn't yeah like it like they also talk about that having the men oh men who are raped. Yeah yeah, which I so I'm going to guess it's usually by another man right? and so he gets aroused and yeah. Yeah, gosh yeah, that's something I hadn't thought about before obviously I've thought about people going to therapy after getting raped by sure. Yeah, never occurred to you that the ah the woman who's raped might have an orgasm. Yeah, and yeah, it's not obvious I mean imagine a situation where you know maybe a woman struggles to orgasm with her partner. Exactly as that experience I mean I've seen I saw what a disaster it might have been on the sex effort I saw a a comment where a woman said that her best orgasm of her life was during was during her rape great right? And then it's like so I mean I guess like there's something there like it's like okay, so maybe this is a person who's wants to be submissive. But man how would you ever kind of quote unquote take advantage of that knowledge when you're playing with fire terror rights can you imagine? Yeah, basically your your best sexual experience was during a crime. Yeah, um, that's like it reminds me of a comedian I saw on Tiktok who said that. Ah, what she'd learned from watching crime shows on tv was that if you're a guy you can commit pretty much any crime and get away with it as long as you don't come while at the scene and she's like and surprisingly most men she's like look just go around the corner right? Go 2 blocks away and then you're seeing them anywhere else.
  • [17:39] Keith and Mike: Right? So yeah I mean that maybe that's a similar phenomenon where guys like start attaching sexual significance to various like kind of criminal behavior. Yeah fetishize it I don't know gosh. Okay, well there's my awful thought pattern for the week well I mean I feel mostly? um. Sorry for I want to like I feel I hope that there are therapeutic interventions that help for women that are in that situation because I sort of understand it if you're the if you were more submissive or you're just I mean women are in the sort of submissive position during sex like it's like kind of complicated It's kind of it's yeah and it's just's yeah, just unfortunate that that. Set of events could add to that exactly deeply unsettled yeah I feel I just feel terrible for that that that would be a thing that would happen. Yeah, um, okay, let's move on to animals have you I'm sure you have thought much about the morality of bestiality. Not as much as you have I think so when I you. Do you think you lean that it's ah more immoral or or more like okay what level of beast. Let's start with dogs since that's the one that like people have the most I don't know connection to is humans like we're really okay. Connected to dogs and are we talking about? Ah, the dog being male or female. Um, right, let's but it doesn't matter. Okay for me I think it matters. Okay I think that I think that it ah 1 is more having sex with one is more immoral than the other.
  • [19:16] Keith and Mike: I think so because I think that ah penetrating a female dog. Yeah is probably not comfortable for the female dog and it's pretty um I see pretty brutal like you're you're harming it her. Whatever you want to call it or her. Um. Ah, much larger female animal. Maybe just doesn't even notice like a horse or a I feel like I read an article at some point about some place in South america where it's really common for men to have sex with sheep or sheep. Yeah, yeah, so that seems if the if the animal doesn't even really know it's happening. It's harder for me to get worried about it.
  • [19:51] Keith and Mike: The male dog. However, and this is the only bestiality with dogs that I've ever seen I have seen videos of this.. Ah it always and so my vague recollection is it's a woman which tells me that it's not.. It's just for money. Although maybe a man would do this. Never know with men men or more wild card. But I'm assuming it's you don't think it's possible for a woman to want to be fucked by a dog I think it's unlikely and it's very unlikely for her to want it to be filled. Could it happen I mean there's various Urban legends that I've encountered around that but it's right skeptical. Um, but if there's a man involved. Well yeah because he's going to pay her somehow make it worth her while um that so the 2 things I've seen are vaginal and oral sex with a male dog I don't I suspect The dog's fine with it. So I don't know what. If they weren't I mean okay, is it rational to be anti-bestiality and an omniorre a carnivore I'm not sure. Oh So you're saying if I understand you correctly, you're saying if I think I think I'm Against. Giving oral sex to this animal. But I'm I'm okay with all eating it? Yeah ah well I think it is rational. It could be rational because you could say well I don't want it to be tortured right? So the amount of suffering experience by the animal.
  • [21:20] Keith and Mike: What if you could breed animals that were indifferent to it or actually enjoyed it. You could you know dogs have been bred to exhibit all kinds of features right? There's hunting dogs and there's I think Therapy dog going. There's hypoalergenic dogs and you could you know, maybe breed a dog. That is this a male or a female dog. What matters because so here here's why it matters I think the male dog probably does enjoy getting a blowjo I mean it probably is probably I mean like like look if if you blindfolded me yeah and put me in some sort of chair and tie me up and I was naked. And then something was giving me a blow. Yeah well I mean like we could start with humans like if it was a man like I don't really want to have sex with a man but like if you could if I couldn't tell that it was a man like okay I probably enjoy it and there's probably an animal that I mean I haven't really like spent a lot of time on this but there's probably some animal. You know where I would be unable to discern exactly what was going on there and no harm, no foul on some level. Yeah I mean it's hard to figure out for the dog. It's kind of cool. It's like Wow, my master is blowing me I Actually don't know how much research there is around detecting when animals are distressed. And situations where it's not necessarily obvious. Okay, they're distressed or not. But conceptually if it could be known that the dog is not in distress and is not suffering I think most people would still have their discussed reflex triggered and usually when most people's discussed reflexes.
  • [22:53] Keith and Mike: Triggered they think things are immoral but I don't think that that is rational. Well, it could be It could be rational because um, there is a an analogy to what you would do to a human. So basically what you're it is still nonconsensual. So if somebody's somebody's willing to have non-consensual sex with right. A living being then it makes me wonder if they would have non sexualual sex with a humane. How can you be sure. It's not consensual. Well, it's like it's this is I mean this is like pedophilia because because we have some standard for giving consent which requires sort of an adult or reasonably adult human. Make the judgment that has like a certain iq and like there's no chance a dog has that iq right? So now but you could say but a dog can't give or deny consent in any case for anything that's true like when you're playing fetch with a dog and you're throwing the tennis ball for the two hundred and eightieth time and the dog's basically going to collapse as soon as you get home and like not move for 12 hours well it could just it but it would still have the choice of running after the ball. Yeah I mean I think the best you best you could find some way that it can easily get away from the blowjob. Yeah I mean that's true. You could yes you could try to create. That's an interesting you. You don't have to strap it down. You could ideate around this the videos I've seen they didn't videos I've seen oh by the way just as a side note here like there is like people masturbate horses to get semen out of them to that's how horses are bred is my understanding. Okay.
  • [24:25] Keith and Mike: So Yeah, and I think other like I think other animals like in Zoos and stuff they have people who go and masturbate their rhinoceros to try to stop them from a fair Point. So I mean yeah I think I think it's look I think the like the most of the concern here is around what's going on with this human that's doing this. Not. Really particularly the male animal. Sure not really like ah the animal is probably enjoying it because we know the male experience and it makes sense for procreation that males generally enjoy inseminating things right? So you're probably not hurting it. But yeah, if you're doing it is your job. Okay, but if you're doing it for. Your pleasure like I just want to swallow some horse come right? that you'd say Well this seems now I mean look like in the in the woke Era we live in now things that used to be considered psychiatric illnesses are now considered normal variations. So Maybe you know 20 years from now people will say look I'm just I just. Really like Horse Semen and The'll people be like yeah that's normal like okay yeah, so you could see a movement that direction. But I think it's still considered disorder to want to do that and I would agree with that assessment. Yeah I mean I think begging to eat a stranger's ass is also sort of disordered but it's been normalized over the last. Yeah, so I mean there's yeah, the the line well and I mean obviously the ah gender reassignments and stuff like that I mean obviously like the hot topics. What do you call it culture war issues. Yeah, these are there are things where the line is moving. Maybe it could move to the to farm teens or whatever.
  • [25:56] Keith and Mike: Farmtins By the way was an early Ob bestiality website from like 2000 to pretty good one I'm good in the sense that you could load it on somebody's computer to bother them. Okay I moved on from that one to shit City Maybe in 2004 their tagline was we shit on everybody. Ah everything. You can look up on the way back machine to see these right. There was meat spin of course meets yeah ah meat spin. Yeah meat spin was later although actually it's all it just came to me later. Yeah, that was just a man a gay man with his penis spinning in a circle while having sex with another gay man on some kind of couch one sitting on the other's lap and there was a counter for how many spins of his. He's true swinging around to you the truth you would was fairly long term interest in some of this stuff like and yeah and I mean like bestialities I mean the the the one piece of porn that like you absolutely must and cannot get access or want Access. You must stay away from is anything involving children which I assiduously in my life have done? Yeah, but yeah, all these other things like. Honestly, you can find all of the search engines have gotten much better finding them or blow no at hiding it. Oh interesting. It used to be that like you would sort accidentally come across it every once in a while that what's happened child pornography. Okay I've never. Actually have never come across that. Okay me neither this was just hypothetical. Okay I've literally never come across it So I don't know I also didn't want to but I didn't either.
  • [27:26] Keith and Mike: You know search edges are are yeah yeah, if you't always bring up the results if I were to come across that like I would be I would like want to shut my computer Yeah yeah i' not sure what I would do I throw the computer out in the trash like you don't want it anywhere near your computer. So I don't know what I would do for? yeah yeah I saw an article the other day about a man. Took pictures of his infant to send to a doctor. It was like we had a rash or something and Google flagged it for child pornography and like band his account and I've heard variates of that story before? Yeah yeah, that's I think that's like a thing but that's coming more and more as we have all these machine learning algorithms. Yeah, we were careful about that when we took pictures of our kids when they were that age to make sure they didn't auto upload to the cloud or whatever. No just to well just not to take though you just don't want to you just don't want to deal with that so you just don't take like anything where there's nakedness. Yeah, why we I mean I don't care I don't need them. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, the ip law is there. Weird and probably best not to run offfoul of so um, Alissa I were talking about on in in her case of online dating when she's single There's always a flood of interested men. And she said that what she's mostly looking for is a way to know that if she goes out to dinner or for a drink with this person that he's going to be reasonable and interesting and cool. How can you flex that how can you virtue signal that.
  • [29:01] Keith and Mike: Any ideas for how does you think that she's know. Do you think I mean this is really just your subjective opinion. Do you think that Alyssa's desire there is this the standard desire is it worth being able to flex that in other ways. In other words I don't know yeah I really don't know I um
  • [29:20] Keith and Mike: Too I think I'm too much of an incel to actually think that that's what women in general are looking for I think I think mostly like the videos that you'll see on our favorite platforms where there's a there's a video style that I've seen repeatedly where a woman rejects a guy. Ah, guy tries to talk to a woman and then the man and it's I'm sure staged but it still speaks to me the man then walks over like his lamborghiian gets in and then the woman immediately wants to talk to him. Yeah, that unfortunately feels very accurate to me. maybe yeah maybe I'm totally off base here. But my my experience in life has been like that there. Just just in the same way that if you're an overweight woman say yeah and you want to talk to a guy in a bar. He'd do I mean men are worse to be honest like I'm nice. This goes both ways but women I think have like they're looking for ah wealth or money. Um, what is it here. It is. Six foot tall six figure income six inch penis that's right but you got 2 of those 3 and then the listeners can figure out which to why I actually I'm five eleven so I only have two also I'm also not it depends on like if you're above like if you're. If that what do they call that in finance, the ah well the first number if it's a 7 on your cock right? I think there's a point of diminishing turns that there turns that comes very quickly on cock size. Yeah no I completely agree. Actually my penis is too long now slightly.
  • [30:55] Keith and Mike: I would yeah I would shave off like a quarter to a half inch if I it's not the first thing I would change about myself but I would be not upset if that happened yeah you start getting into cervix hammer territory some sort of conversation about yeah, would you rather be a quarter inch too long or an inch too short or you know. And then you you figure out where those bounds are the term I was looking for by the way is handle a 7 handled. You know that term it's a term like they use on so the douchhi guys on cnbc use. So like let's say a stock is trading for $82 you say it has an 8 handle. Okay, that makes sense. Yeah, the first number. So like yeah your cock could have. It's kind of clever with a cock a 7 handle on the cock. Yeah I like that. Okay so I think that women like money and status of course I think a lot of women think they don't. Okay, let's yeah let's go with so. It's complicated I was I like sort of messed up the premise of your question. Let's let's go with the premise of your question like what how would you flex it if you thought like what I think just to be clear is the thing you should do on social media is have very curated pictures that shows the wealth signal. Basically, that's what I think you should do yes as a man. That is what I do I did but that's what my Instagram looks like and on all my dating height signal to a little bit but and like attractive physically fit signal but the most important I think is wealth signals. Yeah, the height signaling thing is a little bit weird. Some women say you shouldn't but I'm sure that's wrong. I.
  • [32:21] Keith and Mike: And pretty sure that's wrong. Yeah, because it's so easy to do you just have 1 picture where like there's something that has a fairly well-defined height and you're next to it or something. Oh maybe that's better I think my profile actually says that I'm six feet tall okay well they just do that. Maybe you would be better to stand next to a short person. Um, I'm not sure you could have like a picture of yourself like with an Nba style basket holding your arm up like you're able to grab the net or whatever you can grab that shows sure require enough too much acumen. Yeah, now you want to keep it simple. Yeah, you could you could just have a thing with like ah, an actual just. Growth chart like kids have six feet shows me on the bell curve of of average height, right? no no no I mean like an actual thing like you tape to the wall that has like like a tape measure basic. Yeah, you just stand there. Yeah, but okay, but let's let's assume that that Alyssa is first of all that what she's saying is true even for her. Okay. And that it's generally true for other people and that it's a desirable thing to do so you want to somehow signal that you're reasonable and interesting and cool that going to dinner with you will be not annoying isn't that I mean isn't that the function of like chatting with the person before you go to dinner. So the context of this conversation was Alyssa has a zillion matches and she didn't say this but I did I think that women don't care about physical attractiveness that that much that is to say like most men cluster around some right.
  • [33:52] Keith and Mike: Average amount of attractiveness and the more attractive the woman maybe that average you know slides slightly to the right, but generally they're not looking for the most absolutely attractive person whereas men I've mentioned this on the on this show before will choose the 9.1 over the 9.0 every time. Even if the 9.1 says you know if they have a free choice which they never do but okay yeah, if if if both of the women are gunning for him. He's probably going to ask which one's more attractive. Fine. Yes, ah so anyway, she has she dateds a lot like she's pretty. Aggressive in just meeting and then seeing you know if they vibe or whatever the expression is with with the kids these days and so the problem she runs into is she doesn't want to spend a bunch of time vetting people. For eligibility like sometimes she just wants to meet is it? Yeah, but the way I took the question was the way I took the concern is that and I've heard this a lot from women and and men who talk to women about this that very frequently women go to first dates with guys and the guy just obviously is disordered. And some way he he's just something and it's not something that would show up in pictures. It's something when you start talking to them right? This guy's got some weird chip on his shoulder or just his rightly art and it know it'll be a red flag revealed within you know, 90 seconds of does she have some examples of things like that probably you know, know that we can have her on and okay I'm sure she's had some.
  • [35:25] Keith and Mike: It's yeah I don't know with 90 seconds have you had ah a woman reveal something or maybe she didn't reveal it but it became and it not ah, not physical attractiveness but a behavioral tray that came out within 90 seconds I know I have a friend who had a date with a woman who immediately revealed that she had just broken up with her girlfriend. Wow and he's like oh like she was also yeah, attractive sex's there from like a revenge date or something something. It was strange. Yeah have you have you had a thing like that. Um I'm trying to remember right that I've been on some weird dates I went on one where.
  • [36:03] Keith and Mike: Somebody asked if I was Jewish like almost immediately and when I said no ah she was super Disappointed. She was Asian by the way and she wasn't Jewish herself. You could be Asian and Jewish. It's unusual. Yeah, but okay I did not return the inquiry. I'm not I'm not sure and then it's interesting and then it was weird but she she said that she liked dating like German and Dutch Jewish people. She liked like Talllon man sounds like the beginning of a very offensive. Ah, now I was going to say joke but didn't even joke like it ah like this sounds like she's going to say something offensive. Yeah look I Just want I saw or German Jew like what? why right? What's going on here right? Yeah like whatever, not whatever her heuristics are. Must be racist well but it. Yeah yeah, it was she Japanese I don't I don't remember I don't think so I don't remember I feel good like I would have remembered that I look I because it would have just been like too rich I Get Yeah, it's just that that combination of things with yeah that it's insane. Um. So that was weird I went on a date with someone who told me she had had an abortion a few days prior I was kind of a red flag. Well and it could be a green flag right? and you figured out. Well you like puts that checkered flag right? and she aborts when it goes that that's right, That's right? yeah.
  • [37:35] Keith and Mike: Right? Yeah, the runway is clear presumably I mean I guess that past performance is no yeah, no guarantee of future. It's it's really hard for a woman at least when I'm on I usually my preferred first rate date is to meet for a drink. And then you know you can turn that into 2 or 3 if it's going well and if it's not you can just have long and then get out of there before you waste too much time. It's hard for someone in that amount of time to reveal that they're terrible I think that I think I bet it happens for women with men way more I think it's very difficult. For women to go through male dating profiles because ah for a man. It's much easier I mean you're you're mostly keying on physical attractiveness and you almost don't care what she writes for the woman. It's really tricky and any guy who's smart about it will have vetted his text. With some people maybe write copied text from other people's successful profiles, etc right? vetted his pictures and so basically the profile tells you nothing other than kind of what he looks like so how can you say something that and maybe it's just impossible. Maybe everybody has. I mean things I would assume are positive are like job what you know what job you have so you know I'm sure I'm sure you have a lot of success with sex podcast post people just women just flock to that. Ah.
  • [39:07] Keith and Mike: But there's certain job categories and that that's actually been problematic at times because they want to listen? No I I think I'm okay with them I think I represent myself. Okay, it's not that it's that they would hear that they're not the maybe the only person you're dating or so that's probably a concern although there have been. What's the there have been years where we've done this show where I've been single and so and it was with me an issue then but what's the other problem though you said there's something else I don't remember you said it was problematic. Um, oh women are concerned that I'm like farming for content for the show.
  • [39:45] Keith and Mike: They and they don't like that and they don't like that they don't want to be you know a story but there could be some women who want that there could be that could be wild. Also I don't think I've even once revealed, anyone's name or identity. They still don't want to be a story because they'd make they feel bad. I guess you're like oh this one person I dated and she did blah blah blah they just feel like shit because you know I think it'd be sort of funny to be a story on someone's podcast. Not if you're really sensitive. Yeah and they're probably going to tell it from their incorrect point of view. Yeah, of course mine is There's no risk of that with me. You would give it exactly as it is yeah right? I think I actually over balance on that sometimes so we were by the way we were ah because your number 1 viewpoint that you have that's just obviously plainly wrong is this notion that you your pi v partners generally orgasm during pi v.
  • [40:40] Keith and Mike: When we were so earlier before the show to actually think that you know I thought mean I I think it it's happened. Oh yeah, it' done though the 100 % thing is yeah the thing I was going to mention was we were before the show we were listening to some. Some videos. Oh yeah, that uncle t has posted on having fun hobbying subreddit. He probably look hold on unclet and having fun. So having fun hobbying is a subreddit that specializes in people who engage with. A large number of prostitutes generally that's their recommendation is that you do that right? and uncle t is one of the legends on there and he posts strategies and advice and videos. The the videos is weird because they're I'm not I'm almost sure they're not consensual. And so I can't necessarily recommend them in any way. But I mean they're they're there. Well they're intellectually interesting. Sure. Ah anyway, Keith you were surprised by the or impressed maybe by the reacts by the realisticness of yeah, moaning that the the protitu talk. Thought the sweet talk of the prostitutes and their their feigned interest in the sex. They're grunting and begging to be come inside of and so forth was right, pretty good. Yeah, it's it's persuasive and so that we've discussed this before but I've I've long.
  • [42:04] Keith and Mike: The reason why I'm not interested in prostitution is because I don't think I could get over the notion that they're not actually into me and so it's not a matter of availability of prostitutes and it's just that I'm not interested like even if they were free I'm not sure. Having sex with someone that I know doesn't want to be having sex with me would be compelling but I would be less compelling. Yeah this video like notched me oh really one more is that true. It didn't bump me over the edge but it you know thought oh wow, they they pretty good actresses and these are just street walkers right? These aren't like high end right? yeah. Called them escort. Yeah we're not talking about the you know what? So you know what? a gfe is right? Girlfriend experience. Do you know? what? a Pse is no, that's the porn star experience. Oh what's the porn star experience. They just you know, still investigating that I think my so far my understand so girlfriend experience is is going to be. Ah, lots of kissing like stuff that I wouldn't want to do with a prostitute. Yeah um I think if I was just the prostitute I would want just a hand job because I figured she could wash her hands really cleanly. But ah pse then is going to be so girlfriend experience is like you know, kissing like very like. Friendly seeming. You know, like like she's your girlfriend pse is going to be like you know something crazy where she's bouncing up it down on your cock. Okay, something that you would see in a porn I see you know, probably anal. Maybe going back and forth between the vagina and the anus wealth.
  • [43:35] Keith and Mike: I mean that's the number 1 porn trope that actually seems physically dangerous like I don't know why the woman must anus to vagina seems dangerous. Yeah I think you I think you just routinely get urinary tract and used infections from that kind of behavior. Maybe they can clean themselves in a special way. Yeah I think that I think that. Think they're able to lessen the bacterial load sufficiently I'm not totally but this like I said I have to research this a little bit more I'm not totally sure what the porn star experience is I just have encountered this this term. Yeah I imagine they simulate some of the things I mean. It's no secret that porn is not real life and that you know lots of young men are sort of confused about what a typical sexual encounter may be like because all they watch is porn. So maybe the porn star experience is something that is closer to what they're expecting, no by deep throat. I'm not yeah, there's just various things right? Yeah yeah, all right? This is from Reddit this person says my boyfriend started crying while fingering me. And my boyfriend go to different universities and summer is pretty much over which means that starting next week we'll barely get to see each other for the next fourish months today we were hanging out and he was going at it on me and the next thing you know he stops and I look up and he's all tearyeyed and he said that he's really going to miss me then he started crying to.
  • [45:05] Keith and Mike: And it just turned into a crying session for like 15 minutes mostly me crying l lol I wasn't even expecting to cry. Let alone see him cry about it because I've never seen him cry before hu-o he's never seen me cry before either anyway, yeah, so that happened l o well. There's a movie playing in the background and he said that the dramatic music was adding to all his emotions and he just started crying out of nowhere bless. You know the theory about men crying right? No ah.
  • [45:33] Keith and Mike: It's like a reason some old wives tale. No no, not at all. It's like it's like a relatively recent trope that I've seen that basically if a guy cries in front of a woman that she subconsciously down levels them. Oh definitely because because even though they might say oh no I want to know what your emotions are on stuff like actually deep down like in the sort of. Animal brain. She thinks this guy's not going to protect me so I think he made a mistake there and also she so she's asking a what's the question or just she just wants to tell the story I mean he's got his this sounds bad to me this sounds like I just watched this movie with Emma Thompson and it's directed by a woman meek and you know Emma Thompson is that's not the chicku played. Um you know Dumbledore Harry Potter Clement no what's her name a Watson. What's what's what's ah my watson or yeah, her mining I wanted a ranger. Oh there' of house Griffin right? And there's the the dude with the red hair Ron Weasley that guy didn't you read all these books in french spanish do they have different names in spanish. Yeah, a little a little bit a little There's some other stuff like yes, it's funny. There's a few things in those books that are confuseds the stories that are confusing to me because I only know the spanish words and like you know what's so what's a Voldemort What's his real name. Well, it's like oh Tom riddle Tom Riddle yeah and it's ah it's annagram right? But in spanish the anagram has to be different right.
  • [47:00] Keith and Mike: So some some different and what they do is they change his middle name in english it's like marvello or some craft. Yeah, but and spanish something else anyway. Okay, yeah, all right? So I was watching this movie with Emma Watson ima Thompson who is a british actress in her mid 60 s or something and the plot is. She has just her husband died like two years earlier and she had only ever had sex with her husband and she hires a male prospect. This is the movie. Okay, go? Yeah but it was real life and the male prostitute is fantastically good looking. Yeah. And better looking than you? Oh yeah, wow I mean it's so hard to imagine. But yes, what do you know? who who that actor is um I'll try to find it what you're now and I forget what the movie is called but it came out. It's 2021 I can fly to keep talking. Um.
  • [47:51] Keith and Mike: Anyway, the whole movie is this guy is not just like super good looking but he's dominant in the right times and really sensitive in the right times and I was watching with Alissa and I was like this movie must have been directed by a woman like this just feels like sort of like a woman's fantasy. And sure enough it was and yeah, this story of the like boyfriend crying while fingering her sounds like a thing that a young woman would imagine her boyfriend doing so I'm not even I'm not even convinced that this is totally true, but the reason why. Brought up this question or brought up this Reddit thread in the first place is I don't think I've ever been I don't know in in such a place where like I was on the edge of tears and any kind of sexual encounter like those are sort of different is this the dude. Yeah, that's him. He's fantastically good looking right? The movie is he doesn't look great. He like that's not a good picture. He does the movie's called good luck to you Leo Grand yeah Leo that's his ah that's his ah okay prostitute name so you so you you is a grande yeah Leo Grande yeah okay so. You're saying that you've never had a thing happen during sex I mean maybe aside from rather like getting meat in the balls or something like something where with theres emotional release like that. Yeah I think I have not either I do I mean you hear about people I mean you hear about women all the time like crying after sex.
  • [49:19] Keith and Mike: And you sometimes hear about men crying after sex. But I've just never as you know after sex I usually want the woman to leave so you could go cry cry on her own time. Well and not and also like that's it's quite a different emotion from something like that would make you cry like I wouldn't but it was so beautiful. It's like no I just want to go to sleep. Yeah I different. Are we broken? are we unusual in that sense. So I think this is pretty typical but he wasn't it wasn't when he finished he just was actually the thing I have in my head again. I'm I'm a little suspicious about this entire thing. But yeah, she claims that he was just fingering her. Yeah, the picture I have in her my mind is she's. Reclining on a bed with her knees up and sort of parted like maybe in the childbirth poses. He's got his middle fingerer and ring finger. He jammed up beside her vad with his pinky and pointer finger on the right left and right I'm using my right hand Keith is left hand and so he'd go the other white probably and then his thumb is kind of. Not sure where thumb his knees just fucking railing her with his fingers and then he starts crying that is the situation situation. Although I think when people say fingering sometimes they mean rubbing the clit which is irritating because yeah, there should be different english does not have a good separate phraseology for that. Yeah, that doesn't. Some people say jilling like jacking off but that could be that's more generic. It could be any sort of masturbatory activity on a woman. Yeah when when when when you read that that was fingering. Did you think it was just playing with the clit or did you have the the I think I think fingermen I thought I think I thought finger banging. Okay.
  • [50:50] Keith and Mike: Yeah, and that's what I thought too so I was like that's a little I mean that's a not a situation where I think okay, if the woman was already going to be sort of bummed out about the guy crying. Yeah I think that having him cry while he's got his fingers jamming in your vaginas worse. Okay, it's not better. It's like more aggressively tough for her to like yeah and I don't know what because if I were right thinking to myself. What was it about doing that to me that made you cry. He's like oh I'm going to miss this so much. Just this slushy feeling as going they're going back to university like shouldn't he have cried when they were like having dinner or like yeah ah I don't know like some something's more sentimental like he you feel like he he's in even your point that like oh it's a a fantasy on her part I don't that's not even right to me because he would cry at some other time like. Why would the woman so I actually think it rings true because I don't think that a woman would fantasize that like yeah, just he was just you know Knuckles deep in me and he started ballwing. Yeah, that doesn't feel right? but not the not the balling but she wanted. Ah, do you. We've heard a few things around this lately. This notion of like a movie playing in the background and then people fondling each other is this like a normal say more sex initiating thing that lots of people do you're talking about like Netflix and chill. Yeah, even as I was saying it i.
  • [52:20] Keith and Mike: Almost want to do it back? Yeah I mean I guess that's normal. Yeah people just have something in the background right? Yeah, but why I don't know normally when it's like what what is your go to so you don't Netflix and chill you other like transitional activity I'm very. I do not like missing scenes in movies when I watch a movie I'll watch very intensely seriously yeah, so if a woman once it starts like jacking you off in the little movie. You'll get irritated like look Connie ah can we can we pause this early can we ah wait tilll the commercial break or. Yes I think I would do something like that look if it was silly if it was the first time I had a woman back in my apartment I would probably choose a movie I'd seen just a bit like I would spin out if she are you kidding? No I'm not just so that I wouldn't spin out if she so you I don't think I would actually spin out I would be able to recognize the the real goal. So. Okay, so you have some lady that you've met off some dating platform. Yeah, you are on date 3 or for maybe for you maybe date 2 yeah little faster. Ah, you're welcome and you take her back to your place and you would have the presence of mind to select a movie you've seen before because you know that when you start having sex with her when she's. Tries to get in your pants. You're gonna get pissed off I think there's a number of things thats that play into the movie choice but that is definitely one of them like I don't want to watch something sometimes sometimes I've I think maybe I'm not the person with the anxiety issue. She exist is that real. Yeah I really don't like missing.
  • [53:51] Keith and Mike: Watch movies with subtitles on because I don't like missing words you know that the subtitles don't always say exactly what I'll say I hate that too that pises you up when I prefer language movies that are in other languages sometimes because when I'm listening to do it in other languages too I know but I don't know. Because I don't speak the other link. Oh you you want english subtitles the I understand yeah yeah I don't always watch english like if I'm watching the avengers I don't use it watch with subtitles if I'm watching like an movie a period drama piece and maybe there's accents involved. Do you have like a hearing difficulty or no I just like. Making sure I'm getting as much signal as possible. It is a little lame having to like you know focus on the bottom of the screen. So what do you? yeah it is what is yeah what ah what is your most preferred pre-sex movie. No not moot. Well maybe. You have a movie you use again and again because of this no but now I'm wondering if I should okay, what might get boring. You could like some people have a sex playlist right? They put that on they I get people in the mood. Maybe I need like a sex like a movie but creshandos early so you can and it's interesting now I've never thought of having a sex playlist I did know that was a thing. Yeah. People do? what do they is they use like black as it varies. But yeah, you don't want it to be I mean you know you don't start with Marvin Gaye let's get it on you. You want to be a little more subtle than rights is wait. Wait wait. Are you saying you actually know someone who does this it has like a playlist like what? Okay what if you have that as song 5 let's get it on.
  • [55:25] Keith and Mike: What if the dates what is not what if it's not preceding the way you want it I have an alexa so I could I could skip a track or something you just pissed off all of our listeners that have this playing on ah in their speakers. Sorry yeah, that's right? Sorry ah, okay, so so you don't have a single movie but what I want to know is this. What is what is the best thing for you that could be happening before you transition a sex or when that transition happens or let's say the woman's transition. So the woman's transitioning what is your ideal scenario. You don't want to be watching a movie I learned that this is actually a great question that it's because my answer is going to be. Give give some insight into me sitting on the toilet I so I'm I'm decent at getting women back to my apartment. Okay, but once they're there I struggle like I struggle to initiate because I'll often be like really interested in like watching or like maybe we're discussing something. And yeah, like a lot of times women are just perfunctorily having a conversation or pretending to watch a movie and they're just waiting for you to make a move. That's right I've since been told time and time again. Yeah, and well I mean not yeah if if you're on a date I mean this isn't true if you're like. Married or something. But if you if you go on a date and they come back to your place right? They're not there to watch the movie. Yeah, and actually they might need to like go to work the next right? So yeah, there's probably I'm not sure how long that time lag is but it's probably 30 minutes or something and if you don't do that in 30 minutes yeah they're going to start getting irritated. Yes.
  • [56:59] Keith and Mike: You've had that happen I've I've had this happen to me like time and time again. It's an error that a repeated error you make? Yeah, do you have like a timer you set on your watch. No but I probably should one of those sexs I probably should yeah I need some sort of yeah you know what I need I need like a a song on that playlist. That's gonna be. Yeah, really embarrassing if I get to without having initiated like I need to put myself at some sort of timer like I want your sex by George Michael or something. Yeah, it's just something that's just like so obvious I think having that on there like if you were a woman and you went over to someone's house and you know they play some playlist. I could pretend it was Pandora or some sort of randomized thing but let's say they know I've played the playlist and you know the the eighth song is something that was obviously meant to be on during sex as a woman. Do you think they would feel like I was being presumptuous. No because I like they wait a minute I don't think they would assume that that was intentional in any way, right? if it came on while you were having sex I think she might not like that like I think I actually yeah when you said the thing about like having a I think you'd be careful about that playlist I don't think you'd actually want. Let's get it on on there I think you'd want something. Something more artful than you would craft. Let's get it on is not subtle right? You'd want something where where like had a I don't know I mean I'm not sure exactly what you'd be going for with the playlist I'm assuming kind of sort of a beat or something. Yeah, not sure something yeah sort of low tempo.
  • [58:35] Keith and Mike: And sexy. But oh you know you could have like you could have like your eighth songie like Whitney Houston I will always love you just embarrassing to flat out and you got to stop it before that. But what's okay so what is so when you have this difficulty What do you do to power through it like what's the. This isn't a difficulty that I've encountered that much. You just need to do something and then do like what like give like 1 or 3 examples of what he would do you stop talking and you yeah you move closer to them make eye contact and then go for it. Go for what. Kiss them. You should probably start there what if so have you done that and had it just totally not work. No I've never had a bad experience with trying to kiss someone okay because you always wait till they're at your place I wait way too long. Okay I've been I've been given the feedback a million times that. Wait too long interesting but I have not been able to compensate for it. I think 1 thing you could consider doing is in that situation telling the person that you wait too long. Yeah, which might be cool for you because then she might just initiate I think that's probably true like I always. Women really don't want the pressure to initiate a fair point. Maybe it makes you into sort of a pussy. So yeah, you you have to say it in a way that is almost endearing but endearing in a masculine way. It's tricky. It's for you I hear you much better just to have Luck. You just have to do it. You just have to do it and but you're not you actually.
  • [01:00:09] Keith and Mike: Said something interesting which was you were you were protecting yourself from the notion that you delay that because you're worried. It's not that or that you're anxious about it. You're just saying that like there's something else going on. You're more interested in which is really shocking to me if you're yeah if you've brought back a girl that you haven't had sex with yet I would think you'd. Probably already have like an erection I think that my eagerness to have sex with somebody that I know I'm going to be able to have sex with is not as high as other people like I think some people maybe they've experienced rejection more or maybe they're just more singularly focused. But. If I've decided that I want to have sex with someone I'm usually at least mildly interested in them for reasons other than the sex having okay and so I think I yeah I'm just never in a rush to get to that and also I'm just sort of a weirdo like I am always. Sort of hyper paying attention to various things going on around me even a situation where I should just be focusing on the task at hand right? And so yeah, but I mean yeah I think most for most men that transition is awkward but not for the reason you're saying. I agree. It's awkward because they're yeah they're afraid of rejection and they shouldn't be especially if they've gone back to their apartment like that's right, obviously if a woman's in your apartment you're you're right? you're you're there. This has gotten better actually over the last five years because
  • [01:01:39] Keith and Mike: Asking for consent is now considered less. It's it's considered more cool than it. Well what? So what would be an example of what you would say can I kiss you? Yeah I see and you've never had someone say no no. So. Think's an easy icebreak I think asking someone if you could kiss them in the past would have been. What do you think is the most aggressive thing you could say without having kissed her yet like so you you say she wouldn't say no to that if you said could I suck your nipple what you think she would say no like if it was she started with that. Yes. I think can I feel your breath. They would say no because it's just immediately like but even to that before a person's gotten to know you very well something that you do. That's like super weird and unusual. Okay is so if you so if so your you. Okay, but if it was can I lick lick your nipples. It wouldn't be 0% it might be 50 if you say can I tongue your asshole you think that would be 0 I think if they were gen z it's like a hundred percent yes I don't know why they're so obsessive as the first thing that you say can I tongue your asshole. You're like sitting there. You're talking about politics or something and then it's like you, you're to mind disrobing so like could tongue your asshole. Yeah, you should try that probably feel badly, but it's ironic because maybe ironic's wrong. Worry. It's it's funny to me because if you just follow like the order you could be tellinging your asshole in like 15 minutes it's just you have to follow this.
  • [01:03:08] Keith and Mike: Yes there's an order of operations right? Yeah, it's not like you didn't answer for six first you did say can I or can I finger you all these things would get a rejection right? right? You're not positive though they might work you're right? There's these all have airbars I don't know what? yeah I think like. Or you could say like we you suck my cock. Yeah, she might just be like all right? Yeah I think that's right, but it's way lower. That's it just higher risk just just with with like a modicum of patience. You're going to write. You're going to get there right with we've gone well over an hour here. We should I'm going to wrap it up. You have anything else. No. Yeah, that'll do it for episode 83 of your mileage may vary. We pay $10 for any feedback we receive so you may do so you can should have written this tell them how oh yeah, email y mvpod@gmail.com or at ymvymmvpod on Twitter this is. And a portion but we're going to go with it. Thanks for listening and we look forward to having you join us next time.