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Episode 93: Anal Shame, Voyeur Fetishes, Sex Drive Mismatches, Love Boners, Boredom Kinks, Virgins

Team YMMV | 11-24-2022 | 1:05:40

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It's that time of year again when I try to stuff the podcast title and description with as many keywords as Apple will allow. But, we did cover quite a few sex-related topics this week, so the effort was by no means wasted.

There seems to be this confusion men have about how women are likely to think about them "wiggling" their anuses to try to encourage their partners to pay more attention to them. For most women, it's not going to be their favorite thing to have happen. It's not in the standard script, you might say. And it calls into question the very type of relationship that you're after.

Same goes for intensive threesome requests, voyeur stuff, and even going to Vegas and visiting sex clubs and Shibari classes. Sure, you can do those things, but people are going to wonder if you're pushing the boundaries a bit further than necessary ... and why?

Then there's this boredom/free-use kink we're hearing a lot about. Maybe it's a solution to sex drive mismatches? But aren't there some basic hygiene questions that need to be answered before someone jumps right into that kind of play? Sure, in porn the women are always pristine when the man lifts up their skirts while they're preparing food on the kitchen counter. But in real life things can get a bit more complicated.

On the other hand, maybe it's some men's source of joy. I recall a post I read just this week about a man who hired a prostitute and had the time of his life ordering her to "start" and "stop" peeing on command while she sat on the toilet.

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/93/anal-shame

https://ymmv.me/93/voyeur-mmf

https://ymmv.me/93/sex-drive

https://ymmv.me/93/sex-drive-2

https://ymmv.me/93/love-boner

https://ymmv.me/93/boredom-kink

https://ymmv.me/93/virgin

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

  • [00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is controversial but mostly in good faith on today's show we're going to talk about yet another threesome fail Mismatch Sex drives nude photo shoots and more I'm Keith my co-host is Mike hello Mike.
  • [00:14] Mike: Hey Keith how are you doing.
  • [00:18] Keith: Fine. This is her second time doing the intro. Ah did I tell you about my incident with arcterics the sportswear company.
  • [00:30] Mike: Yeah, you told me they refused to ah accept a return of a jacket because of an odor.
  • [00:35] Keith: Yes, so Alissa gave me a jacket for my birthday and I wanted to return it because it's not the model of jacket that I wanted and so I took it to the store and then they said they would take it and then they took it to the back room and then some. Second guy came out and he told me that he couldn't accept the return because there was an odor and that would be weird even if there was an odor but there was not an odor and I regret not thinking of forcing him to do a blind smell test while I was there like I could have just grabbed.
  • [00:56] Mike: Yes.
  • [01:12] Keith: 10 other jackets and said okay we'll smell the one that you think is mine. Ah, but yeah I mean he just refused to take it and then I went back and forth with their customer support and then they said that they were going to stand by the store. So ah on your advice I emailed.
  • [01:15] Mike: Right.
  • [01:30] Mike: Oh okay, good What happened.
  • [01:31] Keith: The Ceo and yeah it worked. He put me in touch with their head of customer service and then she put me in touch with the store manager and the store manager said yeah, bring it in um, sorry about that and I now have.
  • [01:44] Mike: Was the wait was the store manager the same person that had claimed the odor was there.
  • [01:49] Keith: No, and I was a little bit I wasn't super excited about going back to this store like I'm sure the guy would recognize me because I was pretty upset when they wouldn't take it I maintain my composure but I I hassled him and you know I said.
  • [01:55] Mike: Um, sure.
  • [02:06] Mike: Yeah.
  • [02:09] Keith: Don't understand why you're doing this. You're accusing me of something that is obviously not true if this is a very strange lie I don't know why you're doing this so that I I knew he would remember me and it was a strange lie like it doesn't have an odor I've had 4 people independently spell test this jacket anyway I returned it today and the guy wasn't there.
  • [02:18] Mike: Um, right.
  • [02:29] Keith: Which is not good for the sake of this story but was good for the sake of my not feeling awkward.
  • [02:36] Mike: Maybe he got let go because maybe this was um, maybe it was his fetish. He got off on telling people. There was an odor in their jackets.
  • [02:44] Keith: Maybe maybe ah speaking of fetishes. There was a topic that I saw today that is a good follow up to some of the anal stuff as it pertains to masculinity.
  • [02:47] Mike: Hello.
  • [03:01] Keith: We were talking about last episode. So I'm just going to read this this person says my boyfriend is ashamed because he likes me playing with his anus a few nights ago. My boyfriend was masturbating while I was cuddling him. We do that from time to time when I'm not in the mood for sex but still want to help him come we were talking dirty and my hand was between his legs playing with his balls and his ass.
  • [03:02] Mike: Hello.
  • [03:21] Keith: And he asked me if I would mind going a little further I knew exactly what he meant and I was more than ready to do it. But I played the innocence card to have him tell me he was close to comedy told me please put your fingers between my ass and play with my hole while I come I did that and he came almost right away after that he made sure I didn't mind him asking that. And I told him not at all. Yeah I mean we you could see the slippery slope foreshadowing here last night while we were in a pretty hot 4 play session I was sucking him and had 1 of my hands on his ass kind of holding him and caressing his ass cheeks while trying to take him further in my Mouth. Could feel him moving around like he was giving me better access between his cheeks. So I ended up massaging his anus while sucking him and he was moaning real hard after we fucked we were cuddling and he asked me again if I was fine with that and he told me he was really ashamed to love his ass being played with and that he shouldn't love that and everything. Tried to tell him otherwise and reassure him without much success for a little background. We're living in a little city where there's a lot of toxic masculinity even his friends and family are pretty stuck up about what a man should be like and everything I don't know how to make him feel better about that and I love that he opened a little to me but it's. But not if it's making him feel badly. Yeah.
  • [04:37] Mike: Um, yeah I mean um, it's nice of her to not mind that I'm obviously curious as anyone would be about that first incident and. His sort of showering state. The cleanliness state. Um.
  • [04:55] Keith: Yeah I mean not mind and enthusiastically want are different places on the wanting to do something axis.
  • [05:04] Mike: Which do you think is like the average woman which do you think she would rather have happen the guy want to give her anal or the guy want her to put things up his butt.
  • [05:19] Keith: Ah, probably the former but I bet it varies.
  • [05:22] Mike: That's what I think too well and there might be women that are so averse to anal receiving that they but but yeah I think that I actually think that right that the typical woman would rather the sort of gender dichotomy.
  • [05:26] Keith: Right.
  • [05:39] Mike: Remain intact fully intact then reverse it in this way.
  • [05:39] Keith: Right? I mean I think that sex positive women would say all the right things around this but I think in reality knowing in the back of their mind that their partner can't have a peak orgasm unless she's. Diddling his asshole would probably be a bit of a drag and maybe emasculating of the partner.
  • [06:00] Mike: Yeah, they've got to ask them. So yeah, right? you wonder they won to might wonder. Well what? why? Why is this so important to him is he imagining something more happening that maybe she can't do yeah.
  • [06:15] Keith: Yeah I mean look we litigated this plenty last episode I just wanted to read it because it was Apropos to that conversation. Um.
  • [06:19] Mike: Yeah.
  • [06:25] Mike: Um, wait what was that what? what would I have a question what was in that that comment what was the um sort of decision point that this person was at there was some question right? or was the person just just telling the world that this happened and they were happy.
  • [06:40] Keith: Um, yeah, it's there. It isn't a sentence that ends with a question Mark I think she's I think she's wondering how to reassure her partner that this is okay but I could test the preise of the question.
  • [06:46] Mike: Yoka.
  • [06:55] Mike: Well the I mean the fact that he had not to belabor it. But the fact that he has those feelings about it suggests. Actually there's more to it right? I mean if he if he'd been totally confident about it and said look like I Just yeah I like something rubbing on my my walnut.
  • [07:04] Keith: Boy yeah.
  • [07:14] Mike: Which is a euphemism for prostate. Ah yeah, that's fine, but he's he's expressing something that suggests there's a deeper psychological dimension to this that would make me wonder. Yeah.
  • [07:26] Keith: Well, she would say it's because of this small town they live in and he's been socialized to think that liking anal play is bad but it's actually fine.
  • [07:37] Mike: Yeah, sure sure could be that. Yeah.
  • [07:44] Keith: That's what she would say um, all right. We talked about before the show whether to read this threesome Fail. It's so down the fairway in terms of how we think. The the typical failure mode for threesomes is but this is a good One. So I'm going to read it anyway, it's a little bit long so bear with me here. This person says girlfriend and her voyur fetish might have went too far My girlfriend and I are 30 and we like to try different sexual things together and spice up our sex life I think I made a mistake.
  • [08:05] Mike: Sure.
  • [08:19] Keith: And I'm looking for suggestions to open up about this with her without seeming insecure. My girlfriend always had a fetish of watching and being watched during sex so she had an idea where she wanted to watch me have sex with another woman and she wanted to masturbate to it. She had a friend that was in town someone She didn't really talk to often. And that forensic read to it that sounds wildly, weird. But I'll go on.
  • [08:42] Mike: Um, it sounds I mean it sounds cool though. Like I mean that that sounds that sounds hot.
  • [08:50] Keith: But I can't imagine yeah it does but I just can't imagine my girlfriend being like oh hey, um, my girlfriend who I'm not very close with is in town and I asked her if it would be okay if my boyfriend fucked her and I watched and she was like yeah that sounds good like that's just not a thing. That happens. But.
  • [09:08] Mike: Agreed Yeah I mean it's It's like the um, there's some number of ah couple cam couples cam girl with a guy where they seem to do this a lot and yeah, there's there. There are women. Out there who are at least okay with this kind of Activity. So and typically oh I don't know I'm I would be surprised if they were making enough money can maybe they do because they do only fans. So Maybe maybe it's just a.. It's just a job that could be the answer.
  • [09:37] Keith: Maybe all right? I'm going to continue long story short 1 thing led to another and I ended up having sex with this girl. What my girlfriend watched nothing was off limits. That's risky I just had to wear a condom and that's it I couldn't really get into it because I kept thinking about my girlfriend.
  • [09:41] Mike: Her. Nice.
  • [09:55] Keith: Thought it would be fun but I couldn't get off and the whole thing was a bit disappointing. The girl didn't get off either and after the deed was done she left. What is the deed if neither orgasms anyway.
  • [09:56] Mike: Hi.
  • [10:03] Mike: Well, they just were doing P I V and I'm guessing the other woman wasn't particularly attractive. That's my I think that might be the decoder ring here. Yeah.
  • [10:11] Keith: Ah, that's an interesting and probably correct thought my girlfriend got off though she said that watching me have sex with someone else was hot my girlfriend then said that she wanted a turn now. Yeah, my girlfriend then said that she wanted to turn now and that she wanted to have sex with another guy while I watched.
  • [10:19] Mike: Somewhat unattractive. Yeah.
  • [10:29] Keith: I'm usually down for sexual things. So I don't I didn't think there would be any harm in this because we agreed to this I Also didn't think there would be any harm because I thought to myself that if she had sex with someone else while I watched she wouldn't be able to get off either because she would be thinking about me and wanting me instead. So I stupidly agreed? Yeah yeah.
  • [10:29] Mike: Has.
  • [10:42] Mike: No foreshadowing.
  • [10:48] Keith: But could possibly go wrong here. Long story short We found a guy at a bar. We talked to him for a couple weeks to make sure he was cool I don't know what that means but all right? We told him what we wanted and he agreed so so there I was watching this guy and my girlfriend having sex she got really into it. He was pumping her in multiple positions and she was moaning telling him to go harder and she came a few times during the session and her legs were shaking after their session. It was as if they forgot I was there. They went to the bathroom together to shower with the lights off and I heard the meic sex again and she was moaning. They got out of the shower and got dressed.
  • [11:06] Mike: Are.
  • [11:25] Keith: She led him to the door and he left when she came back into the room. She told me how fun and exciting that was and having me in the room made it that more hotter. It seems like she really enjoyed herself right? I mean yeah, it seems like she really enjoyed herself. Yes, it does seem like that.
  • [11:31] Mike: Except except except he wasn't in the room for the the shower the shower scene he was missing but okay.
  • [11:44] Keith: For watching me have sex to her what having me watch her. However, in the past week I noticed that her sex has been infrequent and she has been masturbating more is this something I should be concerned about and how do I address it dear Reddit ah.
  • [11:57] Mike: Yeah I mean 1 wonders if the this man in the bar was actually found randomly or whether she just it is this sounds like potentially just complete setup.
  • [12:06] Keith: Oh man I It is bad enough even without that. But yeah that that that might be the most likely thing here is that he's just being absolutely cuckolded.
  • [12:13] Mike: Yeah.
  • [12:21] Mike: Right? I mean this? um this posting does have the the thing where when he starts describing the in a lot of these posts when he start when he starts describing the the the the offense against him his his detail on the sex goes up.
  • [12:28] Keith: The yeah.
  • [12:35] Keith: Yeah, it becomes a little bit too smutty to be believable.
  • [12:38] Mike: So it yeah little bit little. Ah yeah, it gives you a little sense of um, what do you call that? um Literotica yeah.
  • [12:48] Keith: Um, I think a good general rule is don't watch your girlfriend have sex with someone else.
  • [12:57] Mike: Um, yeah I mean I think that's that's the rule most people follow. Um, but I mean look it could be. It could be hot right in the sense that well no, it could probably not hot but it could be like reassuring.
  • [12:57] Keith: Call me crazy.
  • [13:12] Mike: If it doesn't if the other guy doesn't satisfy the same mountain mount but I don't know I mean there there are guys for whom right? There are guys for whom this is their fetish So you know the Cuck holding fetish. So sure. Yeah, that makes sense.
  • [13:14] Keith: Yeah, you want to roll those dice though.
  • [13:22] Keith: Yeah, yeah, some people like to be humiliated but it's not my fetish I would like to not be humiliated.
  • [13:31] Mike: That's interesting. Yeah I Guess your point is that like unless you know that you like being humiliated this is a mistake and that's probably right that that's that's the reason you should get involved in what about the other direction though should should a woman is there any situation where other outside of the humiliation where a woman should should ah. Want this or be okay with it.
  • [13:53] Keith: Um, maybe in a situation where she's tiring of sex with her boyfriend. She might find seeing him as an ah object of sexual desire for someone else could be helpful in some way. Not sure, probably not.
  • [14:12] Mike: Um, yeah I think um, I'm well I mean my my sort of basic guess would be that women would be very upset about like some sort of emotional connection that's formed with you know her boyfriend or husband., But maybe not so much just about him enjoying the sex I'm not sure.
  • [14:34] Keith: Yeah, not sure either. Do you think he brought I was do you think he brought condoms into the shower.
  • [14:38] Mike: I Think it would be more bothersome for the guy but go ahead. Yeah.
  • [14:49] Mike: That's a good question. Probably not. Um yeah, that's a right? It's it. That's ah, it's tricky.
  • [14:50] Keith: Ah, yeah, probably not.
  • [14:57] Keith: There's a lot of smoking guns here in the ah in the text.
  • [14:59] Mike: Right? She just say I just wanted to taste his semen thought maybe it'd be different.
  • [15:03] Keith: Yeah.
  • [15:09] Keith: Um, all right? Let's move on to the next thing so there were 2 posts within a day of each other about sex drive and they're both short so 1 takes 1 perspective and 1 takes another I'm going to just read them both and then we can discuss all right. This person says.
  • [15:24] Mike: Sure.
  • [15:27] Keith: Ah, women and sex and long-term relationships I was chatting with the other girls in the office. Most of them are married and have kids and somehow we ended up discussing sex lives most of them show the opinion they have it to satisfy their partners as needs but not more than once per month one of them said she didn't have sex for more than two years since her kid was born. Why do so many women. Don't feel the desire to have sex when they are in the long term relationship or have kids. Thank you all right? So that's one here's 2 where are the men with high sex drives. It's actually pretty funny that online. There's this huge range of extremely horny men that are constantly wanting more sex and elaborate fan and and elaborate fantasies. But in reality where are they now? Honestly, where are they. Because every guy date starts off with the high drive that dies a few months later and goes back to once a week in bed what the fuck is once a week I want a guy who's actually going to be ready to pounce even after the honeymoon phase a cheeky guy who going to get me turned on at dinner. Or at my parents or at the grocery store the one who wants to try new fantasies and buys me new lingerie but immediately rips it off as soon as I wear it for him you high drive men or like leprechaons at the end of the rainbow. Do. They really exist. We'll never know so ah.
  • [16:33] Mike: Well these can both be these can both be true right? I mean these.
  • [16:38] Keith: Yeah I'm I'm sure her experience is that men bore of sex with her after some amount of time and there are lots of marriages where the man basically rarely gets to have sex with his partner.
  • [16:43] Mike: Yeah.
  • [16:56] Mike: Speaking of the first the first posting there sure I mean I think yeah I mean I think these both can be true and are probably somewhat typical. Um the I've read. Many many postings where people basically dispute. Okay there's like there's statistics out there that suggest that ah sex frequency in committed relationships is still fairly high and then there are people that like dispute that. So.
  • [17:32] Keith: Do you? What is your intuition for you know, let's let's take like ah american middle and upper class marriages from the ages 30 to 50 or something. What do you.
  • [17:45] Mike: Yeah, my intuition is that the this is extremely common because all it takes is ah not great communication which is probably pretty common and 1 or other or the other of the partners sort of having this. Happen and then you yeah then you go down that sort of rabbit hole is that the right term you go that this starts happening right? and there's not It's oh like the the the 2 scenarios where basically there's 1 partner who's extremely frustrated because the other partner just like doesn't.
  • [18:08] Keith: Um, what's this.
  • [18:16] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [18:21] Mike: Doesn't value it at the level they do and I think I don't think okay when it ah happens the first story you told um I think that that is more often just a kind of lack of communication slash. The woman having what they call responsive desire which just means that she's not going to initiate and so the yeah and then they basically don't have like a good system for initiation to take place. Yeah.
  • [18:52] Keith: Yeah I think as things break down they they calcify a bit too like I think the woman might sort of come to resent the man for various reasons. So even if he does make overtures. She may erect some defenses.
  • [19:11] Mike: That's probably right? Um, yeah I mean I think I think that more often I think that the off there are often situations. Well I don't know Okay I was going to say I think they're often situations where it's just kind of communication difficulty. That being said.
  • [19:12] Keith: It varies obviously.
  • [19:28] Mike: I have read you know several times postings where where women I guess it's women say that men just badger them all the time which is not as a man that's not something I've ever been exposed to really I mean it's not something that would happen in Public. So I wouldn't. See it very much but I could see that could be a failure mode that would be pretty dire right? I Mean in other words like you.
  • [19:54] Keith: You you mean where the woman feels like the man is constantly trying to have sex with her.
  • [20:01] Mike: Yeah, and just basically yells at her about it and hassles or and stuff like that. So it's so ah yeah.
  • [20:04] Keith: Yeah I think there could be a perception thing there though. Mike I think you know the woman might say you're always you know you're always horny. You're always trying to come on to me and the man might say like well we're having sex once every 6 weeks and so. Which person is right in that debate then.
  • [20:28] Mike: Well.
  • [20:29] Keith: Like she's not lying that her perception is that he's always coming onto her and he's not wrong that like he feels like she's always rejecting him like those things could both be true.
  • [20:39] Mike: Yeah,, That's right, there. Yeah,, there's some I mean there's obviously something that has to be resolved there. The part that yeah that you're you're definitely right? that they that they basically both have a point to make the thing. The thing that is hard for me to envis invision is the guy badgering. It's It's just something that I haven't ah accepted like in comedic ways like on ah on a sitcom or something I haven't actually ever seen this happen in real life. So I don't really know we see. Yeah I mean it's it's going to. Ultimately.
  • [21:11] Keith: I Don't understand sorry you're using you're using pronouns here. What do you describe? what situation you're describing that you've never seen.
  • [21:20] Mike: Sure the situation where ah, a man is badgering a woman for sex like say his wife or his girlfriend like I've never I've that's not a situation that I've sort of watched happen.
  • [21:29] Keith: I Don't what you've never seen a man ask a woman to have sex I don't That's impossible.
  • [21:36] Mike: You know Badger Badger No Badger So it's not so not ah know it would It would be beyond that right? So basically in such a way that it like precipitates an argument or something like that I don't think I've ever seen that? yeah.
  • [21:49] Keith: How I see have you seen the opposite like a woman trying to cajole her partner.
  • [21:58] Mike: May I probably not but that's yeah I mean that well that's right, Yeah, it's the thing that makes more sense to me is that it's just some sort of lack of communication. But but the thing is I mean Ah, ultimately it's a communication issue because the ah let's say the guy is badgering. There's some.
  • [21:58] Keith: I Mean this is just something that happens in private right? like it's not yeah.
  • [22:16] Mike: It's some better way for the woman to handle that than just to. But yeah I can see how would get irritating and so she probably just.
  • [22:20] Keith: Yeah I think people I think people you know they have shame around this. They have varying physical needs that you know like for a woman they might change over the course of the month depending on her cycle or you know they might change for for.
  • [22:32] Mike: Right.
  • [22:36] Keith: Both men and women depending on various stresses going on in their lives and I think what happens is people are sort of embarrassed or don't have the tools or the sophistication to talk about this and then they get to a place where one or both is just really. Super dissatisfied with their sex lives like I I don't know what percentage of married couples would report better than average sex. But I'm I'm sure you know it's like everybody thinks they're a better than average driver I'm guessing most married couples think they have worse than average Sex. Um.
  • [23:09] Mike: Oh that's interesting. Yeah, that's probably right and it's probably it. It's obviously not. It can't be true. It's the average is average right? Um, yeah, no I think that's that's reasonable. Yeah I mean generally speaking I think that um.
  • [23:14] Keith: What's definitionally impossible. Well half of them are right I guess.
  • [23:25] Mike: There's probably some set point that people generally have for their level of libido and if people are mismatched by enough of an amount. It's very problematic.
  • [23:35] Keith: Yeah I But I think yeah, you need to have like I mean ideally you have like somewhat matched sex drives. But then you need to be able to talk about it too because it's. And even for a single person. It varies. Um and right? Ah I guess I began to ask this earlier I can't remember if I spat the question out or not given like yeah like for.
  • [23:56] Mike: Sure depending on the partner that makes sense so you might not know exactly.
  • [24:10] Keith: Married couples and you know the ages 30 to 50 that are in like reasonably good shape. Ah, what do you think the average number of times they have sex a year is yeah and they're not trying to have children or whatever.
  • [24:21] Mike: A year the average you're asking the average. Yeah I understand um yeah, it's probably lower than you'd think so I'm going to go with like 30 or something.
  • [24:27] Keith: You could say Median Median's probably better than average.
  • [24:37] Keith: 30 yeah about every other week. Yeah, that that feels about right? Um, because there's I mean I I bet there's a whole swath of couples that just based effectively never have sex and then.
  • [24:52] Mike: That's right, That's why I sort of lowered it right.
  • [24:55] Keith: You know there are some people that have very healthy sex lives and have sex much more than that. But but yet we're talking meaty in here. Not not not mean Yeah, okay, all right? Well we don't disagree so nothing interesting there. Ah, let's see here. Ah, okay, yeah, let's do.
  • [25:05] Mike: Um, yeah.
  • [25:14] Keith: Let's do this one. This person says my boyfriend got hard after I told him that I loved him for the first time we've we've tackled something similar to this before but this person says so I 23 year old female was at a club with my boyfriend 25 year old male. Was a bit drunk which brought me the courage to tell him for the first time that I love him his response I love you too and you just made me hard. so so I quickly checked and indeed the dick was hard I was a bit surprised. Tbh is it usual for men to have this kind of physical reaction.
  • [25:49] Mike: No I Ah I I think I got hard once when a woman told me that she hated me that's different.
  • [25:49] Keith: Yeah, no, it is not.
  • [25:58] Keith: I Think last time we talked about this I don't remember if I said this exactly but I'll I'll say it now in case I didn't almost every time that someone has surprised me by saying they love me. It is not but I have ah in fact, maybe every time I've been annoyed.
  • [26:15] Mike: Um, ah.
  • [26:15] Keith: Like I don't think anyone's ever like surprised me with it I Love you and I've been like oh Wow that's really great like I think always a bit like oh man now I like have to say it back because you you can't not say it back. Ah, you can, but.
  • [26:30] Keith: That's probably going to cause more problems That's just rotely saying it back.
  • [26:32] Mike: This reminds me of me being irritated when like with like too high of a level of intimacy during sex. It makes me think of the same my mind goes the same place like you're.
  • [26:43] Keith: Ah.
  • [26:46] Mike: What I mean what? what irritates you about it's it's the it's the future interactions. It's some sort of like Larry David kind of thing or is it ah is it that the implied intimacy bothers you.
  • [26:56] Keith: I Don't mind it when people tell me they love me. It's I'm talking about the first time they say it I mean I think as a role women should leave it to the man to say it.
  • [27:02] Mike: Yeah, okay.
  • [27:10] Mike: How interesting yeah.
  • [27:14] Keith: And people are going to say like oh Keith you're so sexist. This is just another example of your nonwoke podcast but like what percentage of women proposed to their proposed to their partners right? like point point you know, zero zero whatever like
  • [27:27] Mike: You know we discussed that even on the Tv show the bachelorette at the end. It's the man who proposes.
  • [27:33] Keith: Right? And that show cancels every other host because of their map being woke enough. Yeah I mean the entire show is with what's the opposite of thinly veiled explicit misogyny.
  • [27:39] Mike: Does it? okay.
  • [27:49] Mike: That's a good point but wait. But you're you're saying that the hosts have not been woke enough.
  • [27:53] Keith: Ah, there is a longtime host and he got canceled but it was for some ah insensitivity around race. Not.
  • [27:56] Mike: I see I wonder if they'll have a bachelorette where I mean there was recently an article that I saw that said it was this high school had a a transgender prom Queen I wonder if there'll be a bachelorette who's transgender and how that would go.
  • [28:08] Keith: Oh now.
  • [28:15] Keith: Um, um I ah pair the the fantasy suite. Yeah.
  • [28:16] Mike: I Guess it would be fine until the honeymoon suite. Whatever they call it right? The fantasy suite and like the guys are just yeah, the guys are just congregated in the courtyard. They're like dude she has a tick it're. Just.
  • [28:30] Keith: Ah, oh my God No presumably they would they would know right? Well aren't their episodes.
  • [28:33] Mike: And there's 1 guy who hasn't had his date yet. He's like wait. What.
  • [28:42] Mike: Um I don't know and what's the etiquette there I mean it would be a totally new situation.
  • [28:47] Keith: Don't they find excuses to put the bachelorette in a bikini.
  • [28:52] Mike: Yeah I mean I think Transgender women can be pretty convincing even I mean yeah, they can be pretty convincing I mean I've seen I'm not sure exactly what they do. But I've seen I've definitely seen. Um.
  • [28:58] Keith: Um, what do you mean? they like tape it or something.
  • [29:09] Mike: Had the for me because it's not my cup of tea. The misfortune of seeing on Chatterbait ah transgender woman disrobe and peace I was surprised by the the penis I didn't it was a little crying game situation for me. Yeah, so um, so I think they could.
  • [29:22] Keith: Yeah.
  • [29:29] Mike: They could go further than you would think into such a competition.
  • [29:31] Keith: It would make such good television and I mean I mean we've already sort of Dave chappelled ourselves here by giggling it at you know antit trans tropes here. But ah yeah I would make outstanding television to.
  • [29:46] Mike: Well look if they if.
  • [29:50] Keith: Ah, for force Americans to you know, have explicit conversations about this.
  • [29:54] Mike: Um, if they if they told them all ahead of time then it would be I mean it could still be then they I guess that you wouldn't have any surprises but it would still be Interesting. You'd be interesting to see it might be just boring because they would It wouldn't yeah I mean if they knew ahead of time then they would just. Would just skip over talking about I mean although I don't know I mean you'd still think the guys would kind of be like Well what did you guys do together like what did you did you give her a blow.
  • [30:21] Keith: Well, they would have to find somebody you think that they could find somebody that is ah hot female passing enough that they wouldn't figure it out until.
  • [30:31] Mike: Well no I'm saying let's say they did tell them and so you have guys who are ah Trans curious or are kind of into it but you'd still the conversations they would have would still somehow be immediate or there would be an element they would they would be different from the conversations that you might see with a.
  • [30:37] Keith: Um, listen.
  • [30:47] Keith: Right? so.
  • [30:48] Mike: Says female like didn't you give her a blow did you swallow? yeah.
  • [30:58] Keith: Oh my god okay we have to move on this is this is not good end. Well for us. Um, ah trans bachelorette they would if Abida would make.
  • [31:11] Mike: I Think we'll get there as a society we will get there I'm sure actually I mean that doesn't seem.
  • [31:17] Keith: Ah, yeah I mean you know a few years ago they had their first black bachelors and black bachelorette and they've ah been trying to do various diversity things and that does feel like.
  • [31:26] Mike: Huh.
  • [31:34] Keith: Something that a producer might think might generate really high ratings. But yeah, right, The way they tease the episodes it so be the the most.
  • [31:37] Mike: Sure I think it would generate even higher ratings if it was surprise but whatever you won't believe what happens on episode 9 The guy, the guy just comes running out of the hotel right.
  • [31:53] Keith: Shocking thing in bachelor Red History right? Yeah, they should do it I mean they won't because it's too. Ah.
  • [31:56] Mike: Right? Yeah, they could actually now that I think about it when they do the bachelorette like they would. This is concretely a decent suggestion. They would get higher ratings if some of the bachelors were women. Right? If There was no if there was no gender assumption so it was like look it could be this person is interested in a lesbian marriage and then I think you wouldn't get higher ratings just because you'd have more women.
  • [32:20] Keith: Yeah, maybe yeah, maybe they say that the whether it's the bachelor or the bachelorette whoever the lead is is bisexual and so they have like you know I think there's 25 so they have like 12 of 1 sex 13 of another or maybe or maybe ten ten and five trans
  • [32:29] Mike: Um, yeah, yeah, that would be good Tv.
  • [32:39] Mike: Piece of yeah you could write you could mix it up a lot Just don't know what's coming through the door.
  • [32:39] Keith: And just yeah, yeah, what is it when you're not attracted to the physical form. It's just like their brain sapi so sapi sexual Pan sexual.
  • [32:51] Mike: Yeah, sapi sexual sure Pan is I'm not sure that yeah I mean there's a lot that you could do with that. But but you it's true that I mean you would then have you sort of start losing the notion of a bachelor or bachelorette because that's a little bit heteronormative.
  • [33:05] Keith: Yeah, who proposes to who yeah all right? This person says my girlfriend 22 is confusing me also 22 with her kink last night my girlfriend and I decided to test out a kink she discussed with me a few days ago.
  • [33:09] Mike: Yeah, so.
  • [33:22] Keith: The way she explained it to me was that she got turned on by the idea of having sex with someone who seems completely bored. She said she wanted me to look uninterested and unimpressed while she went above and beyond to pleasure me I didn't really understand what was so hot about that. But hey I didn't judge so there I was looking as bor as possible while she was riding me like she just got released from prison I yawned. Played games on my phone use some of her sex toys as action, figures, etc. My go slow doubt at some point it told me to stop big a dick I laughed at first because I thought she was joking big Mistake. She got off of me and said all the guys. She's done The board sex thing with none of them were able to stay in character for that long I was confused.
  • [33:44] Mike: This is.
  • [33:57] Mike: It was a test.
  • [34:01] Keith: I Thought I thought the point was to look bored but according to my girlfriend. The point was to look bored. Not actually be bored I was even more confused after that light but I apologize for whatever I did wrong. She managed to cool down eventually. But it took a lot from my side to convince her that I still enjoy sleeping with her. We continued having sex afterwards without any acting it was quick. She didn't want me to go down on her. She just wanted me to come and be done with It. Can anyone please tell me how the fuck I am a bad guy here I do like the bit about using her sex choices. Attention figures.
  • [34:29] Mike: Yeah, yeah, I think this one I actually think happened. Ah yeah, this sounds right? So she didn't ah I mean first of all, there is it. This is like a ah genre of porn. It's much. I mean sort of I think 100 % of the porns that I've seen in this genre are the woman appearing bored which frankly like sometimes doesn't seem that different than a normal porn it it varies but they will yeah they have ones where they play video games but but some like for instance with the woman's lying on her stomach I mean.
  • [35:00] Keith: Ah, right.
  • [35:06] Mike: Yeah I don't It's not that different. Um, but yeah I think that this woman got more than she bargained for I Do yeah I like the idea of the the action figures I think for yeah for a woman. The notion of the man being totally uninterested is sort of novel.
  • [35:22] Keith: Yeah I mean what she really wanted here is for him to desire her so much that he couldn't even pretend to be bored like that's that's her kink. Her kink is not the board thing.
  • [35:23] Mike: Not something they're going to encounter much.
  • [35:36] Mike: You think? So yeah, okay and I have to say I mean this seems like a thing you might have done before now I think where you weren't interested I think you might have done some of these sorts of things.
  • [35:39] Keith: Yeah I think so.
  • [35:44] Keith: Where I pretend not to be interested in my partner. Oh well, that's not that's not that's not what what she's hoping for.
  • [35:54] Mike: What is the most board I mean have you have you like read a newspaper while she's on top or is there anything.
  • [35:59] Keith: No I'm always I'm always polite like if I'm on a bad date or in a bad sexual encounter I Still perform the things that you're supposed to do no I don't tiktok or.
  • [36:10] Mike: Okay, you never get your phone out or tick talk or anything. Okay, interesting. Um, what if somebody asked you to do this, You'd be I Guess you'd be too smart and no know it was going to end badly and refuse. Do.
  • [36:16] Keith: Whatever it might be.
  • [36:22] Keith: Yeah I mean it's an obvious trap I would.
  • [36:28] Mike: Do you find the the opposite gendered meaning the the like. For instance there, there really is a lot of porn where the woman is playing video games. Did you find that compelling. Okay, why is it stupid.
  • [36:34] Keith: Yeah, there is yeah I mean normally she's like on her phone or something. No I don't think that's it's always stupid.
  • [36:46] Keith: Ah I mean.
  • [36:48] Mike: Is it is fake seeming or is it because you just know that you would be so good at it that she couldn't possibly do that or.
  • [36:56] Keith: Now No I don't I'm pretty self impressed but that that's not that doesn't stop me from enjoying boredom porn. Ah why don't I like it I don't fantasize about my partner being bored I guess.
  • [37:12] Mike: My partner.
  • [37:14] Keith: Like I don't I don't understand what the I think it's something about there being a brat or something and even though they're sort of not consenting. You're still having sex with them or something. Maybe that's why people like it.
  • [37:29] Mike: Well I mean there's certainly like a free use element. That's the people seem to to like although the free use porn usually well actually I think again virtually a hundred percent or maybe 100% of the ones I've seen the woman kind of comes around so he.
  • [37:31] Keith: Um, yeah.
  • [37:47] Mike: Yes, he initiates and she's like whatever and then she moves she she begins reciprocating in a reasonable fashion. Can you see that as hot for use.
  • [37:59] Keith: Ah, this free use thing has really exploded over the last year there's like I think what? what is it vixen is that the big porn company. They have 2 or 3 different free use seriess that are getting a lot of play on.
  • [38:03] Mike: Sure I think.
  • [38:16] Keith: Tube sites. Ah I I mean I think that free use generally is sort of a weird male fantasy and doesn't really work pragmatically but the porn can be sort of entertaining.
  • [38:29] Mike: Why not? so.
  • [38:33] Keith: Like the girls doing something. She's just trying to go about her day and then because of some arrangement. She just basically has to stop what she's doing and satisfy the man. Ah that as some sort of obligation.
  • [38:46] Mike: Yeah I mean I I read to something this ah harkens back to the earlier topic about mismatched Libidos I read something recently where a a couple or a man or a woman or something claimed that a free use agreement basically solved that for them. Basically I'm sure it was well I'm sure it was the man had the higher sex drive and basically the woman was like look like yeah fine. We'll just do that and that actually resolved the problem like.
  • [39:14] Keith: Why would she agree to that if she didn't want to have normal quote unquote normal sex with him. Why would she agree to like weird potentially at any time in any place sex with him.
  • [39:33] Mike: Um I don't remember the details well enough to be sure on that I think I think it was basically that it eliminated the badgering and the sort of yeah the negative kind of communication around it and like I think this is I think this is.
  • [39:42] Keith: Ah.
  • [39:50] Mike: Sort of Common. It's not that she didn't want to have sex. It's just that she was sort of indifferent and so yeah I mean basically when you bake the indifference in to the agreement you have Well I mean that's sort of. Resolves the problem a little bit. It's you know, maybe maybe he wanted This is I'm speculating now for sure. But maybe maybe he wanted her to enthusiastically say yes when he initiated and this eliminated that pressure on her. She could just say look yeah like you know I don't. Mind you doing that but you know don't expect me to be yeah.
  • [40:28] Keith: Yeah I feel like the devil is in the details here I don't know what the exact nature of their arrangement was but yeah, like if he was constantly if he's doing this 3 times a day she might get irritated.
  • [40:47] Mike: Yeah, you could imagine having an agreement that it's going to be some I mean I Yeah I think it's the rare guy that would take it up to that level. Um I'm not sure I Actually my guess would be that you would find free for a woman doing free use kind of gross right.
  • [41:01] Keith: I just probably wouldn't appreciateate just feel like yeah, whatever I wouldn't be repellent. It's just it's not intriguing to me I like a little bit of Chase I guess.
  • [41:04] Mike: Interesting. Well so be repellent.
  • [41:18] Mike: Interesting, interesting. So you would ah well the thing. Yeah, the other thing I was thinking is maybe like if you typically wind up in the lower libido category in a relationship Anyway, then you figure Well, you basically always have for use.
  • [41:21] Keith: Um, like if it's.
  • [41:32] Keith: Yeah I guess that's sort of true as well. Yeah, right? Yeah, if every time I ever try to initiate I have a 100% sex rate success rate. What's the difference between that and for use.
  • [41:34] Mike: It's not yeah yeah, so.
  • [41:50] Mike: I Think what would be compelling and just bear with me on this one would be ah if I had some sort of pass that made it so I could go to pretty much any college in the Us and go to any sorority house and have free use of any of the women there I think I think that.
  • [41:52] Keith: Oh boy.
  • [42:01] Keith: Yeah I would I would sign up for that service.
  • [42:05] Mike: You would sign up for that. Yeah I think I would too that would be and would you in that case would you use it. You think or no, let's you know? And yeah, they've agreed to it So it's not rape or anything.
  • [42:13] Keith: Yes, but I mean you're just like Perma locking yourself with Ah what's the what's the president. What's the what's the ah when when people prefer no when people prefer variety.
  • [42:25] Mike: Jeffrey Epstein oh sorry out of coolidge effect so you would just be like you'd be like okay I'm in I'm going to try del now and let me start with room 5 c niche.
  • [42:30] Keith: Ah, yeah, the cool effect of president.
  • [42:37] Mike: Would just rotate continuously. You wouldn't even you would not go to the same room twice. Interesting Interesting. Yeah.
  • [42:42] Keith: Um, unless there is a very compelling reason.
  • [42:49] Keith: I have wondered. Let's say you had access to like infinity women. What number would effectively be infinity like if you could rotate between a thousand different women. Ah would your brain remember.
  • [43:06] Mike: No, and I think the number is far far smaller I'm I'm thinking the number is like 5 or something.
  • [43:06] Keith: When you got back to number 1
  • [43:12] Keith: Um I think it's I think it's not.
  • [43:17] Mike: Okay, not not that you wouldn't remember but I'm thinking that 5 or some number like that is is is very diminishing returns after that amount of level of variety.
  • [43:26] Keith: Do you have any X's that you became less compelled by having sex with him before you broke up. Yeah, and.
  • [43:38] Mike: Wall wall with them. Ah yes.
  • [43:44] Keith: Has that gone away over time. Yeah, like are you more interested now than you were at the end of the relationship. Go back and kick the tires or something so doesn't that sort of disprove your intuition about.
  • [43:45] Mike: With that particular X meaning did I know. Now Now. So.
  • [44:02] Keith: It being a small number of women.
  • [44:03] Mike: I Don't think that the yeah well the issue would be the issue would be this is these this is like person specific right? So the person I that's.
  • [44:12] Keith: I See they had a they had a they had a failure mode.
  • [44:18] Mike: Right? The person who became less compelling did did so for a reason but I think that there's it's that's the point. Yeah I suspect that's right, but it sounds like for you, you actually would require. You're you're looking for the level of novelty where you don't even remember the one when you.
  • [44:21] Keith: Okay, but if you had a good 5 You think you could just rotate between the 5
  • [44:34] Keith: I mean I just know that it's not like that with porn with me like I definitely have like a bank in my mind that is way more than 5 people. Well why wouldn't that why wouldn't it follow that in the real world. It would be.
  • [44:37] Mike: Back to her.
  • [44:42] Mike: Oh that's of course true. Yeah yeah.
  • [44:53] Mike: Okay, yeah, and and yeah I hear your point also and so on some level I'm not and I wasn't answering your question because your question is what what number would effectively be infinite. So I mean I think I think that number would probably be in the I don't know if a thousand is required but it would probably be you know, repeat once a year
  • [44:53] Keith: Some number greater than 5
  • [45:03] Keith: That's right.
  • [45:12] Mike: Or something.
  • [45:13] Keith: I actually said a thousand because I think it might be more than that like I think to like get your to get what you want is the excitement that comes ah from having sex with somebody for the first time.
  • [45:16] Mike: Well.
  • [45:28] Mike: Right.
  • [45:30] Keith: Because the gap between the first you know time and subsequent times is is material. There's ah, there's a gap there and I think I don't know. Maybe it's less than a thousand I mean because you can only have stuff. Guess you could have sex every day. But even if you had sex. Let's say you had sex every other day with this ridiculous setup. It would take 2 years to go through. It would take 3 years to go through wait a minute. Yeah, it takes 6 years to go through a thousand people.
  • [46:00] Mike: 6 years or maybe seven for a thousand yeah yeah at some point that you're your harem you're you're only going to do each one once anyway. Um.
  • [46:12] Keith: Um, I mean you'd probably want to eliminate some because they'd be bad so pair it down to 800 or something. Yeah.
  • [46:16] Mike: Well scare is almost doesn't matter yet almost doesn't matter at that point. Um the well I have a question for you though? Um, when you say that. And this is definitely true that the first time or first couple times is higher quality would that be true if it were in this in the context of the ah free use sorority because they because there isn't a there isn't like a chase. There isn't a you know there? they they weren't willing to you know yesterday you weren't willing to let me.
  • [46:44] Keith: Yeah, right.
  • [46:51] Mike: You know rub your clit and now you are that moment but maybe important. Yeah.
  • [46:54] Keith: Right? Yeah, we've discussed this in the past with respect to rock stars and how yeah without having to try. It's sort of less interesting. Um, yeah, that would be a problem.
  • [47:09] Mike: Right? Okay, yeah.
  • [47:12] Keith: That would be a problem I'd still want to try the service though. Mike I think I could I'd like to collect the data myself.
  • [47:20] Mike: Yeah, when the women join their sorority. It's like this is really the best sorority on campus but there's this One thing you need to know is this guy Keith.
  • [47:31] Keith: This guy is going to come around once a year or look you might not come this year because he came last year and yet he's got 1000 so you know that there's a chance he won't even come this year he doesn't come most years. Ah.
  • [47:42] Mike: That's right? Yeah, but if he does in your you're ironing your your panties. You just have to let him let him in. Yeah.
  • [47:51] Keith: Ah, oh my God Yeah I think I think actually well whatever I think there would be less I think a lot of women would be like yeah, that's fine I would be I would think that's fine.
  • [48:03] Mike: Really you think they would take that risk like.
  • [48:08] Keith: If like I was joining a fratern whatever I would never join a fraternity but if I were joining a fraternity. Ah despite what that guy who's sent us the hate mail last week thought. Ah yeah, if they told me that like first a 50% chance that some sometime this year ah some woman is going to come.
  • [48:10] Mike: Okay, like.
  • [48:28] Keith: And let's just stipulate that she's ugly just to make it interesting I'd be like yeah right? That's fine I can have sex with somebody one time. It's got to be clean and everything. But.
  • [48:33] Mike: And that's interesting I think most women wouldn most women would not join a sorority if that was the stipulation and yeah, although although I mean yeah, the sugar daddy sugar baby stuff indicates. There's a.
  • [48:41] Keith: Then that a man was going to rape them with a 50% chance
  • [48:52] Mike: Higher level of pragmatism there than maybe I give women credit or for yeah.
  • [48:54] Keith: Yeah, gosh I mean Psychology is really strange too like I mean that sounds like something that like people should obviously say no to but I don't know it's a little bit like whenever we have these conversations about like how much somebody would have to pay me to sodomize me or.
  • [49:11] Mike: Crime.
  • [49:13] Keith: How much you'd have to pay me to get me to blow somebody and yeah, my number for that is just way lower than most people and yeah, given that I could guarantee my my safety and disease freeness. Whatever it's just it's just 10 minutes
  • [49:25] Mike: Would it be would it be illegal. Would it be illegal for say Jeff Bezos to give a bunch of money to some university to set up a free tuition and free use sorority for him and it's like look you you know you get. Yeah, like it's like look you you know you get to live here. Your tuition's free. So that's pretty valuable I mean that's actually more money than the typical sugar baby arrangement. They're getting for a private university it could be $50000 a year in tuition. They're getting room and bored. But this.
  • [49:46] Keith: Yeah.
  • [49:55] Keith: Um, yeah I hear you.
  • [50:01] Mike: This bald dude shows up every so often and like you know, sorry you have that econ exam tomorrow but you got to saddle up.
  • [50:07] Keith: Right? right? Yeah, they could set it up outside of the United States like maybe in the Bahamas there's a lot of real estate there now that ah Ftx is is no more.
  • [50:16] Mike: True I'm not sure that's even illegal I don't know you know they're consenting.
  • [50:24] Keith: I Don't think the law is set up to ah adjudicate stuff like that. Ah, it's got to be illegal somehow but they'd have to come up with some sort of grounds for prosecution and I'm not sure what they would be.
  • [50:29] Mike: They would. It would be like a a plural marriage I Guess that's probably right? They would yeah they they? yeah they wouldn't work. Well.
  • [50:42] Keith: Yeah, all right I've had this. Ah this topic in our spreadsheet for a while. Ah yeah, right? I'm going to go for it guy I'm seeing won't touch me after finding out I'm a virgin so I female 18 have been talking to this guy male 18 for a while now. Been out together 3 times on our second hangout he tried to pursue sex with me and I told him I was a virgin and wasn't ready yet which he completely understood instead. We just did quote unquote hand stuff if you know what I mean on our latest hangout third one he said he wanted to get to know me better so he spent most of the time talking.
  • [51:09] Mike: Her.
  • [51:18] Keith: Some point we started intensely making out when I asked if I could go to the backseat to take things further. He said that we should wait and then he wanted to get his Std test results back and that we could do it when the quote time was right after that conversation. He immediately decided to take me home I'm wondering Oh not to his home too.
  • [51:37] Mike: So.
  • [51:38] Keith: Her home her parents house probably so I'm wondering is he disgusted by by my virginity does. He not want to be with me or am I overthinking it.
  • [51:48] Mike: I Don't think I mean the fact that there are entire like cultures and religious traditions that have major elements built around women preserving the virginity suggests to Me. He's not disgusted by it that would be somewhat Surprising. He might be put off by it or unsure how to proceed as a result of it. Um.
  • [52:12] Keith: You could imagine Well Okay, first off if I went on a date with somebody and you know revealed to be that they were a virgin I think I might be less interested in having sex with them just because I don't want to carry.
  • [52:19] Mike: Her.
  • [52:30] Keith: The responsibility for their feelings. Um.
  • [52:31] Mike: Oh so so you think that you would be concerned that they would fall for you in some sort of hard way because of that right? That's interesting I didn't I mean I in my life I think we've discussed this before I did.
  • [52:37] Keith: And right right? right? right but I mean I'm not 18 So I don't think this guy is worried about that per se.
  • [52:52] Mike: Flower I think 2 women and that never occurred to me.
  • [52:55] Keith: 1 2 I think I'm at 3 note 2 I mean the average has to be 1 right? And in fact, there's well, there's slightly more women than men right? what.
  • [52:58] Mike: Okay, yeah, sure sure yeah men.
  • [53:08] Mike: Right? But in general so we're actually we're actually exceeding our quota I can't.
  • [53:15] Keith: 1.0 one yeah yeah that means that there's ah, 2 men out there who have never slept to the virgin.
  • [53:23] Mike: Right? because of us. Ah, but I didn't yeah and in neither of the cases did I even consider that. Um yeah.
  • [53:30] Keith: Oh definitely, not definitely not and and I was so young that I would have been like I Love this person.
  • [53:37] Mike: I have to say one one of the two I didn't communicate with for many many years and this person sent me an email like two years ago right and it was it was this person. Let's see I want to be careful.
  • [53:45] Keith: See this is the problem with sleeping with virgins Mike but.
  • [53:55] Mike: I don't want to dock somebody but this person had been married and divorced and the email said stuff that um, let's see I got an email I replied got an email another email and the email the second email she sent. Ah.
  • [53:56] Keith: Okay.
  • [54:12] Mike: Implied A very long lasting kind of tortured feelings toward me and I didn't reply I ghosted. Ah yeah.
  • [54:17] Keith: No man.
  • [54:24] Keith: What are you even supposed to say I mean not replying is actually arguably one of the better things I mean well you definitely? ah, don't want to unrequited you don't want to requit.
  • [54:31] Mike: Is it.
  • [54:41] Keith: Quite her love what is the word there. Yes is it but is unrequated 1 of these words that. Ah.
  • [54:44] Mike: Requite unrequited requite I understand what you're saying reciprocate or whatever. Yeah, it wasn't it wasn't the email wasn't like a profession of love. It wasn't that I mean I could pull it up here but it was it was like it was it was sort of um well it was a couple years ago so I'm trying to remember it.
  • [54:53] Keith: No no don.
  • [55:01] Mike: Detail It was sort of it was saying like how large of a position I occupied in her memories or some crap like that and I was like oh you I don't want to deal with this. It was.
  • [55:10] Keith: But what could her possible motivation for sending that be. She's setting up like a little trial balloon right? Sorry I'm not trying to bum you out here. But I mean.
  • [55:20] Mike: I'm not sure. Yeah I No no no, you're not, You're not bugging mad I didn't I didn't I Yeah no I The reason I ghost through was I wasn't sure what how to respond and I just was like and then I forgot.
  • [55:32] Keith: I well this is what I'm saying though I don't I don't think I don't think you could look especially knowing like what your tuitions with be for responding It's definitely good that you did it. But even if like a compassionate person was responding. Ah there's really no way to say like. Hey that's really flattering but I haven't thought of you for 30 years like and that's that's really what you want to communicate because you want her to like that. She said that she reached out in the first place implies that she's at least curious what you think of that and so.
  • [56:04] Mike: Right? Like probably although you never know.
  • [56:07] Keith: By not responding you really are closing the book for her and you could try and do that you can try and do that with compassionate words but it would be hard to do it as well or as concretely it's just not responding.
  • [56:19] Mike: I could have tried to do the thing we that I mentioned last episode where I um it was the girl in Palm desert that I persuaded to hook up with a friend I could have tried doing that sort of being like I'm not available. But there's this other guy that sort of similar.
  • [56:28] Keith: Oh right? right? right? right.
  • [56:35] Keith: Right? Yeah I don't think that's what she was looking for.
  • [56:37] Mike: Can try him on. Ah but yeah I don't know what she was looking for. Yeah, it's tricky, but okay, so yeah, you're you, You would be worried about the ah that kind of thing coming back to.
  • [56:48] Keith: Yeah, um.
  • [56:55] Mike: To haunt you that that's never happened to you one of these 2 lovely young ladies that you divergenated you didn't get a any sort of oh wow. Yeah I didn't didn't do that with this girl shorter short and sweet.
  • [57:00] Keith: No I mean I dated both of them for multiple years so there was no. You know.
  • [57:13] Mike: Yeah, well, that's that was part of what was difficult that I did but but that was part of what made it hard for me to know how to respond I was like I was like you know it wasn't that I mean but it was yeah.
  • [57:14] Keith: Well was it was it short for her mike.
  • [57:22] Keith: Like who are you again? Can you attach a picture an old 1 please.
  • [57:32] Mike: Was it was ah yeah, it was like I was like Wow like I'm sorry that I'm yeah I'm sorry that I occupy occupy that position for you because you don't occupy that position for me. It was like that I didn't so.
  • [57:37] Keith: So awesome.
  • [57:46] Keith: Um, yeah I Just don't know any way that you can say that that isn't better than just not saying anything I mean this is this happens with um, early online dating too like let's say you go on a date with someone.
  • [57:52] Mike: Right? And that's a fair point.
  • [58:03] Keith: And ah, you just aren't interested for whatever reason and then they message you the next day and they're like hey I really enjoyed getting to getting to meet you. Um I'd love to see you again when are you available now.
  • [58:22] Keith: What do you owe that person and what is the nicest way that you can you know deliver the shit sandwich to that person and I I think look ghosting is probably not that way. There's probably some set of words that can be both kind and shutting shut down all hope. But. Ghosting isn't the worst possible thing to do.
  • [58:46] Mike: You're and the rationale here. Let's just I'm just curious about this.? Ah Okay, if if the woman was I don't know psychologically someone you wouldn't find compelling or or really unattractive for you? Okay, but um. Let's say that it wasn't quite at that extreme. You would be worried about just taking the blow because you wouldn't want the follow on nonsense is that the thought process here.
  • [59:02] Keith: Now. Yeah.
  • [59:12] Keith: You're wondering why I wouldn't ah try to file away this person in my rolodex for a dry spell.
  • [59:16] Mike: Or yeah or just be like oh you're I mean because essentially the message you described was basically offering a blow right? I mean that if it's if you want to sort of cut through the sandwich there.
  • [59:30] Keith: I Mean it's more complicated than that I mean especially when I date people my own age which I don't always do but especially when I date people my own age I mean they're just their time is valuable for them. Ah.
  • [59:43] Mike: What do you mean there? They you don't they they'll be upset with you if you waste their time because they're looking for like a life partner. No.
  • [59:49] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, like if I go on a second date. They want there at least to be a possibility of marriage like.
  • [01:00:02] Mike: Yikes.
  • [01:00:02] Keith: If I've decided that there's no possibility they would just prefer that I move on rather than you know, casually date for a while I don't know maybe I think you can get away with it Culturally, it's more acceptable to do that when you're younger.
  • [01:00:08] Mike: Um, well how is that age related isn't that all women basically.
  • [01:00:21] Mike: Um I see interesting. But oh so so are you saying that beyond a certain age. There's no such thing as an FWB.
  • [01:00:21] Keith: People expect men to do that when they're younger.
  • [01:00:33] Keith: No, but you probably have to be more explicit about it. You can't just sort of wriggle your way into that situation with non-communication.
  • [01:00:43] Mike: I see I see and so then they would be angry then that's that's the like the crux here as you'd be. You wouldn't like them being irritated with you. Yeah hear you I hear you but that that nut is sweet.
  • [01:00:50] Keith: I Really don't like that. Yeah, lots of men don't care lots of people don't care. Yeah.
  • [01:01:00] Mike: And also there's something kind of cool about about doing that to someone isn't there. No.
  • [01:01:04] Keith: I Don't know I I Sometimes think about if I mean look I am not very careful about the effects that my actions have on in other aspects of my life.
  • [01:01:20] Mike: Are.
  • [01:01:22] Keith: And so it's a little bit strange that I try to be careful in matters of the heart. Ah I Wonder if I adopted ah a different approach if um. Yeah, how I would feel I think I would feel badly though.
  • [01:01:41] Mike: No yeah I mean but yeah I think for me, it would be it would come down to whether there was concretely anything the person could actually do to me which there might be actually so I have to think about that. Yeah, that's right? But if if I if I felt confident there was nothing.
  • [01:01:52] Keith: Is something bad. You mean right.
  • [01:02:00] Mike: Concretely they could do to me like let's say they couldn't find me they didn't really know who I was and everything I'd done was legal I'm not suggesting it. You know then? yeah I don't I don't think I would care.
  • [01:02:08] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely do but I am not trying to make an argument that your behavior is irrational. Yours might not yours might actually be more rational.
  • [01:02:18] Mike: Wait. So if you were if you were at the club. But if you were at the club and some girl was really into you and you had the choice between just letting her give you the blow without telling her who you are and just leaving or not getting the blow. You would not take the blow.
  • [01:02:23] Keith: I mean just because you happen to know them? yeah.
  • [01:02:34] Keith: For the sake of this question and that set up. Yeah no I would not yeah if I was confident that she was just doing that because she liked me and not because she just wanted to give somebody anybody a blow.
  • [01:02:50] Mike: Ah, well I mean it's always hard to know the mind of others.
  • [01:02:56] Keith: Sure but you're you're trying to create a situation where ah, the person.
  • [01:03:04] Mike: Well I'm trying to create a situation where you can get away from the other person like they don't even know who you are exactly so you can just disappear into the night okay
  • [01:03:09] Keith: Right? But I mean if I can do that and I know they don't care then yeah fine, whatever. But if I but if I think that they might care then even if I it's not. It's not the getting away part. That's the issue. It's that I know that I've mildly wrong somebody.
  • [01:03:24] Mike: Got it now that makes sense.
  • [01:03:28] Keith: Yeah, all right? That's an hour I am going to wrap it so that'll do it for episode 93 of your mileage may vary. You can heck us on Twitter at YMMvpod or by email at yeah, apparently 1200 people ah quit.
  • [01:03:38] Mike: If Twitter is still around. Yeah.
  • [01:03:46] Mike: I read that I read that 90% of the workforce was gone which is more than 1200 it's like yeah, we'll see.
  • [01:03:47] Keith: Yesterday yeah, if I wonder if those numbers are right? Yeah well he fired 50% and then yesterday 1200 people may have left anyway.
  • [01:04:00] Mike: Okay, yeah, ah.
  • [01:04:03] Keith: Ah so yeah on Twitter at Ymmvpod or by email at Y Mmv Pod at gmail.com we pay $10 for all feedback. So just let us know how you'd like to be paid in your note to us. We appreciate you giving us your time and we hope to entertain you next week on your mileage may vary.