YMMV - Your Mileage May Vary Podcast

YMMV is a weekly podcast about SEX and RELATIONSHIPS.

Enjoy YMMV? Please click the above button to subscribe to the show!

To listen to an episode, just scroll down and press the play button.

Episode 94: OnlyFans Techniques, Camgirl Mansplaining, Amouranth, Prep, Size Anxiety, Nude Selfies

Team YMMV | 12-1-2022 | 1:03:36

Read The Transcript

Camgirls should pay particular attention to this episode, as we let them in on the secret that it's really their personality which wins over guys, not the action of slowly sawing a dildo in and out of their vaginas for hours on end. Indeed, one camgirl specifically complains that she's tired of all the dildonics, which makes plenty of sense. Keith points out that one of the most successful female streamers in the world, Amouranth, doesn't really have to do it in the nude.

Keith wants to know exactly why he sees so many ads for "Prep", given that it's a product used primarily by those in the gay community, along with sex workers.

A comprehensive discussion of dating apps and strategies is had, along with some conversation about whether some form of transactions or explicit transactionality would improve the experience for all concerned. Which leads naturally to talk of OnlyFans. Mike is surprised to learn that Keith is a customer!

We also have a conversation about male and female size anxiety. And, why do women share nude selfies?

We get a lot of our questions from Reddit, so for our listeners' enjoyment, here are links to some of the questions we discussed this week:

https://ymmv.me/94/is-it-in

https://ymmv.me/94/tightness

https://ymmv.me/94/sharing-nudes

https://ymmv.me/94/dildo-fatigue

Episode Transcript

Transcript automatically generated by a robot. Apologies for any inaccuracies.

[00:00] Keith: Hello and welcome to your mileage may vary. We talk about sex and relationships with frankness that is controversial but mostly in good faith on today's show we're going to talk about small penis shame loose vagina shame nude sent to an x shame and probably some other shameful stuff I'm Keith my co-host is Mike Mike what does a deaf gynecologist. Do.
[00:21] Mike: Um, ah sounding Oh you know what sounding is though how that's where you put a rod into your urethra that goes up to your bladder.
[00:25] Keith: Ah, they read lips. No, what's sounding.
[00:37] Keith: That's like worse than a colonoscopy.
[00:39] Mike: It's but well, it's not this is it for sex play. It's a thing guys. Do you can find videos of it. Yeah, what.
[00:44] Keith: Um, oh wait. Why would shoving something up your your urethra be good.
[00:50] Mike: People are just looking for that next level of intrusive play. It reminds me of like the anime or whatever's Hentai skits or videos whatever cartoons where the penis goes all the way into the uterus.
[01:05] Keith: Right? right? right.
[01:07] Mike: It's just like even more invasive although it is a guy receiving it. So that's sort of interesting.
[01:12] Keith: Yeah I don't think you would feel any sexual pleasure having your penis interacted with in that way. So why couldn't you just do something like I don't know saw a knuckle off your ring finger or something.
[01:26] Mike: That would probably work to I mean it's more permanent. This isn't permanent right? This is something where you could then remove it I mean people get pierce sings on their penis. Sure sure I mean yeah, it's it's like some sort of submissive thing probably but it's definitely a thing I wasn't my it's not my favorite video to see but I've seen a number of them.
[01:31] Keith: Okay, cut your finger then I don't know.
[01:45] Mike: So certainly I mean I suppose on some level. It could operate like a condom I mean hard unless your semen can go past it but it also would keep you hard maybe longer. So it's like a kind of poor man's viagra I guess the other way.
[01:46] Keith: Sounding. Okay, and.
[01:57] Keith: Where would the seamen go again I don't want to talk about this I don't want to? yeah we forgot to do a black Friday cyber Monday promotion for our feedback bait. Do you think it's too late. Okay, so we famously.
[02:02] Mike: But right all right.
[02:08] Mike: Okay I don't know what that means. So.
[02:16] Keith: Offer $10 for any feedback people send us and they can do so at y mmd pod on Twitter or at ymmdpodat gmail.com but I don't know we could have offered we could have offered twenty bucks for a week or something.
[02:27] Mike: Yeah, but we tend to just get like we That's true I mean we tend to just get like a gay guys who want to tell us how hot we are I guess it's our voices. Yeah, we've had that before. Yeah.
[02:36] Keith: Yes, somebody asked us for photos. Yeah I remember that one? Yeah yeah I mean our listeners can't see us at all.
[02:44] Mike: We had a guy who wanted to know if we were beating off while doing the podcast. That's a hard know. Well I guess we can't see each other's crotches. But I don't think we are right? No I'm not beating off it would.
[02:55] Keith: But like it doesn't look like your arms are moving I don't remember what episode it was but didn't we tackle this on an episode like whether it would be possible to beat off on a Zoom call without it being detected.
[03:07] Mike: We did. We did That's because we had a ah person who told us that he thought he could do it without being detected and I we he never we never did it though which I'd like I mean I don't want to watch Guy's orgasm but I don't know.
[03:10] Keith: The f.
[03:21] Mike: I Still don't think I think you would there'd be some hitch in your speech as you got close? yeah.
[03:23] Keith: Yeah, well we don't have to relitigate that. But yeah, you could see them moving and yeah, all right? So let's do twenty bucks for a week all right? So if you send us feedback this week at y and MVPod on Twitter or YMMd pod at gmail.com
[03:31] Mike: Are okay.
[03:43] Keith: We will pay twenty bucks so yeah send us venmo or send give us your venmo or your cash up or.
[03:48] Mike: That's the other thing is that most people who give us feedback don't actually want to tell us it's like if you yeah I understand there's this issue here I mean people probably want to use crypto or something because they want to be anonymous. They don't want us to call. Not even though we've never done that we have no history of doxing people. But.
[03:59] Keith: Um, oh.
[04:04] Keith: Yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah, we are extremely careful not to share any identifying info even of ourselves although a couple people we know have heard us accidentally. But yeah, um.
[04:04] Mike: Whatever.
[04:09] Mike: Um, that's right.
[04:19] Mike: Um.
[04:22] Keith: Okay I saw this tweet I don't remember when it was it was November Twenty sixth and this person says the first dating app that solves the quote women get too many matches but are of poor quality and the quote men get very few matches.
[04:30] Mike: Are.
[04:39] Keith: Coordination problem will become richer than God I I think I disagree with this premise. So his premise is women get too many matches but they are of poor quality I think I agree with that subjective reality that women experience and.
[04:43] Mike: Um, right.
[04:51] Mike: Yes.
[04:55] Keith: This men get very few matches. So men do get very few matches. But I think they are also of poor quality.
[05:02] Mike: I think it depends on I mean obviously the high quality women are matching with someone and so I mean my initial take on this is that it falls into the standards sort of 8020 it's not 8020 it's like ninety five five thing that you hear complained about on Tiktok all the time.
[05:08] Keith: Yes.
[05:21] Mike: Really complained about people just talk about it as a reality that that women are ah some some large percentage of women basically only like the top 5% of guys and I think there's data from various platforms going all the way back to Okcupid. But also I think with tinder.
[05:22] Keith: What what? What is this thing.
[05:40] Mike: Um, showing that that's what women do that. There's a strong skew whereas men are yeah I mean yeah, you can imagine 2 graphs like the men's graph is kind of ah um, and a normal curve where it's like men. It's what you would kind of expect. It's just random. It's some kind of random distribution of likes.
[05:40] Keith: Um.
[05:59] Mike: Whereas the women. It's not random. There is a small set of guys that do really really well and there's a huge chunk of guys that do very very poorly and so that this would just fit into that dynamic that the women are all clustering around some guys.
[06:05] Keith: How.
[06:16] Mike: You don't think that's true.
[06:16] Keith: Maybe well I don't know I actually don't know the so I wonder what the experience I Know what my online dating experience is and my online dating experience is getting matches is annoying.
[06:22] Mike: Like I think there's data behind this too but go on like.
[06:35] Keith: And I would like to have far more matches and all of the people I match with complain about just having too many matches like it's hard for them to choose who to even message because every single person they swipe yes on has already swiped yes on them. Effectively.
[06:55] Mike: Yeah I mean I think that so I have a couple thoughts on that. My first thought is that I don't think you um make ah you make some effort in your online profiles mostly through pictures of travel and sort of destination stuff which I think is smart.
[07:07] Keith: Yeah.
[07:11] Mike: But I don't think you make the level of effort that you could in terms of doing some kind of wealth or income signaling and the second comment is that Ah, if you could I guess in reference to this tweet this tweet. Um the solution to this probably is something. Okay, so if you can take out fraud and that's the problem. That's the problem with these things and it's the problem on seeking arrangement is that there's a substantial fraud Component. It goes both Directions. You have men who will wealth signal. That's easier to solve because you could simply have it so that for a man to like a woman's photo. He has to pay something right? So Then it's actually costs money on the female side. It's much harder because in this totally happens on seeking and other places the women obviously the one have a strong advantage to either divert people to something like an only fans page or ah.
[07:51] Keith: Yeah.
[08:05] Keith: Um, yeah.
[08:07] Mike: Just yeah I mean if you had a dating app where the man had to pay to like someone or pay to get a match. Well there would be women who would just but or people rather who would just put up fake profiles and um, collect money. So So however, I mean you could imagine somebody creating a very clever system that disincentivized. That behavior I'm not sure exactly how um by okay like.
[08:28] Keith: I Think it's actually easy I think you just let men flag profiles and then you have a moderation team.
[08:35] Mike: But how would the men know I mean if I think it would have to be a little more complex than that around. Yeah.
[08:40] Keith: Oh sorry Twitter not Twitter Tinder and bumble and hinge. You're not allowed to do it on seeking. Actually if you list if you in your profile have a Url to only fans or even your Instagram your profile will be removed.
[08:57] Mike: Okay, but but yeah.
[08:59] Keith: But on those other three you can just link to your only fans and people will say like oh I'm really busy I respond there more often and it's It's just a commercial. In fact, it's not even the girl creating the account. They probably pay an agency that repeatedly just creates these accounts.
[09:16] Mike: Right? So So in the the use case I'm suggesting is a little bit different where there would actually be a financial exchange for the man to get the match and so then the woman would presumably receive money for matching with guys and so there would be a more perverse Incentive. It doesn't it wouldn't then just be an only fans kind of thing. She would actually have an incentive to match with men just and to create a fake profile just to get the money. Um, one thing you and I have discussed before I think kind of a long time ago was that there might be a market for some kind of verification service and it could be as simple as I mean there's there's these services or rather.
[09:35] Keith: I see.
[09:53] Mike: Not exactly services. But um, they're business to business services like plaid which enable um, kind of ah access to people's brokerage accounts and bank accounts and you could imagine pretty easily actually setting up an app that simply verifies your net worth.
[09:56] Keith: Um, yeah.
[10:06] Keith: Yeah, so this is getting a little bit boring. But I mean the problem for Tinder is they don't actually want people to match. They want people to keep using the app so that they pay the monthly fee or Tinder also shows tinder shows ads as well. So.
[10:20] Mike: Interesting.
[10:25] Keith: If You have to swipe through a bunch of garbage only fans accounts. For starters, you so you still get that dopamine hit every time you swipe and there's like some hot young thing in a bikini. Um, and yeah, it's a little bit annoying that you'll never match with them and even if you do it's fake. But. You know from Tinder's Perspective. You're getting more app time because of it so they're not even really incentivized to remove those accounts tinder needs to have some sort of way to make money without am.
[10:55] Mike: That's true I I think that I yeah if we if we assume that seeking dot com which charges I think roughly one hundred dollars a month on the order of yeah if we assume that they have a reasonable business with a reasonable amount of revenue and if we assume.
[11:05] Keith: Um, something like that. Yeah.
[11:12] Mike: I Don't want to bore our audience here with too much intelligent conversation. But if we assume that the um that the real problem that's trying to be solved here is not the problem of sort of the ugly man looking for or the uncompelling man looking for a moderately attractive woman which I think actually that probably broadly is the real problem. But if if the. If you wanted to solve simply the part of the problem. That's you know men trying to shoot men and women both trying to sort of come out come out from the crowd and show up for people. Um I think that a pay service that did some kind of income verification or wealth verification could work kind of well. Um.
[11:40] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah.
[11:49] Mike: Because I think that then the yeah, the female matches the the women would I mean I think that look if a woman had that piece of information on Tinder or on Bumble I think their match or the compelling matches for them would go way down.
[11:50] Keith: We've been through this before.
[12:01] Keith: Okay, live all I will entertain this just to find out where we disagree. So first let me say where I disagree I I think you're totally wrong I think that a wealth signal would basically do nothing here's why yeah, let me see where we disagree. Okay, let's say we had.
[12:07] Mike: Yeah.
[12:14] Mike: Really yeah.
[12:19] Keith: All the female guests we've ever had on the show and you know there's probably a dozen right? and we asked all of them if there were a thing on Tinder accounts that showed you The person's bank account Would you care about it and they were on the show. Ah do you write? So they were like saying this publicly.
[12:23] Mike: Probably yeah.
[12:36] Mike: Think yeah now I think it's like half yes and I think all of them would actually like that information because it's just it's just a shortcut. Yeah yeah.
[12:38] Keith: How many of them. Do you think would say yes I think all of them would say no you think half of them would like be honest, that's that's that's a separate question I Guess So yeah, so this is where we disagree I think all of them would say no I don't care how much money he makes and. Half of them I think would actually think they don't care how much money they makes like this idea of dating a firefighter who is really good with kids and you know is a strong male presence but you know maybe doesn't have the privilege that other people do like I think women romanticize that and they don't think that they actually care about money now of course. They actually do. But I think in their minds. They think they do not.
[13:23] Mike: The I mean I don't disagree with you that the um I don't disagree with you that in principle. That's the way they would view it I'm specifically trying to address the situation where you have a woman who's attractive enough that she's getting say 200 matches and she's just trying to figure out which is higher quality and lower.
[13:34] Keith: Um, yeah.
[13:39] Mike: And in that context it's hard for it would be hard for me I feel like in that situation. It might even be more than half of women would acknowledge that it would be a signal that they would like to have.
[13:48] Keith: Um, yeah.
[13:51] Mike: Sort of help them filter and yeah, they might decide that a guy is still worth the effort but I strongly suspect that what happens is a woman gets 200 matches an attractive woman gets two hundred or five hundred matches or something and she's thinking to herself. There is literally no way for me to figure out what these guys' jobs are what like what they do.
[14:07] Keith: We should.
[14:08] Mike: And if she could just get some kind of resume for each of them then that would you know Resume Income Wealth Whatever that would be really helpful.
[14:15] Keith: I'm going to take a note here. We should post to the sugar Lifestyle Forum subreddit and ask the sugar babies on there. How many of them filter by the on seeking you can indicate both your annual income and your net worth and we should ask how many women.
[14:30] Mike: Okay, sure that's a great question and you think it's low and I think it's high well that could okay this is getting bored I think that could be because they're getting paid. Yeah.
[14:33] Keith: Filter by that I think it's I think it's almost literally 0 right? I know we're getting to in the weeds I know what you're going to say you're going to say like that someone is on seeking arrangement. Sorry it just called seeking now.
[14:48] Mike: Yeah, yeah, well, it's also more complicated because they because and it depends on what part of what part of the world. What part of the country you're in. We've talked before about the fact that the typical arrangement winds up being about three Thousand u s dollars a month.
[14:51] Keith: Implies that they have enough to hang and so like women don't need to apply that filter.
[15:07] Mike: Um, which isn't really that much money. Um, but very commonly. You'll read about women who are dating in a sugar relationship. A guy who isn't really making that much money he's spending a large percentage of his income on the sugar relationship. Um, maybe they wouldn't care because they're still getting that percentage. But there's some lack of safety or and there's some risk there. Um, and ah, it's really, but it but it would be very hard for me to believe that a woman wouldn't appreciate the signal above you know.
[15:39] Mike: De distinguishing that between say a guy making $1000000 a year I feel like that's something they'd like to know it's it. It'd be hard for me to imagine them. Not caring. Yeah sure sure.
[15:45] Keith: Yeah I mean look I want to be clear here. They definitely should care and they probably do care but they may not know that they care. That's that's the part that I think we that's that's like the core of the disagreement.
[15:58] Mike: Well there is maybe this maybe this this is a 1 other question that's more interesting is if it's not wealth and income that the woman would be looking for as a way to wade through this set of matches. What is it responding to this to original Twitter comment. What? what? What do they? They do have pictures of the guy.
[16:10] Keith: Yeah.
[16:17] Mike: Some kind of text from him what he's interested in like is it just that they are saying hey it would be a pain to meet 500 guys but they would treat them all equally. So yeah I mean at some point you have to decide how you would pick like men might say oh I want someone with this color eyes or this height or this size boobs. Whatever.
[16:23] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah.
[16:30] Keith: Yeah, yeah, would be interesting to next time we have a female guest on we should We should interrogate them about this like what are their heuristics for whether they swipe on actually maybe we could do it live like they could share a screen with their tinder or something.
[16:46] Mike: Sure yeah.
[16:48] Keith: They can say what what they're seeing all right. Let's move on. Um I've been watching Twitch lately I watch people play this video game that I play and I I have mostly stopped I'm not I'm not doing my 200 hours a week.
[16:54] Mike: Are. Um, I thought you stopped playing that game Interesting yikes.
[17:08] Keith: Like I used to it isn't never that much is that even possible. How many hours are in a week seven times 24 is 1 seventy five minus so one 68 he said? yeah but I feel like you knew it. You didn't derive it like I did.
[17:12] Mike: My one 68 I think I Just said that? yeah. I I did yeah.
[17:27] Keith: Anyway, um, yeah, so I've been I used to have a ad blocker for it. But it stopped working a couple weeks ago and I'm getting lots of ads now and I want to say I don't know if it's half. A lot of them are for prep. Do you know what? Prep is.
[17:48] Mike: Sure that's the ah that it's the pill. You can take that um lowers or base very close to prevents you from getting H I v from sexual contact or maybe from ivy drug use too.
[17:58] Keith: Yes, yeah, ah, why am I getting these the ads are kind of ridiculous that they show a bunch of couples and I mean everyone knows who's at most risk here. But I think they show 1 gay couple and then a bunch of Manwoman couples and I can't remember I don't think so I think I I think I would remember that.
[18:17] Mike: They don't show any Lesbian couples because that would be pretty low risk I got I got H I V from your strap on.
[18:28] Keith: Right? It would be like showing men in a breast cancer commercial. It's like okay, it's medically possible but unusual what could have I surfed that would indicate to the advertising overlords that I'm gay.
[18:34] Mike: It's yeah, it's theoretically possible but right.
[18:46] Mike: I'm going to guess it's just being in San Francisco and perhaps perhaps you share an range of addresses with an area of San Francisco that is predominantly gay which I think you do you live? not that far. Yeah.
[18:47] Keith: Oh.
[18:56] Keith: I do yeah I live like 4 blocks from the Castro which is you know, maybe the gayest neighborhood in the known universe.
[19:05] Mike: Yeah, there might be ah there might be like ah some kind of um, ah, a push to get people using I know I've read recently on oh gosh, let's see sex workers only escort clients only these are various sex worker of course having fun hobbying but I learned by the way that Uncle Tony the guy who used to give. People escort tours of Oakland I thought maybe you went to he deleted his Reddit account shame of kind of a bummer but he ah I think we did maybe yeah, he apparently well Langston who is the kind of og there is still there.
[19:27] Keith: Yeah I can't remember if we talked about this on the last episode or not. But yeah, you must be heartbroken.
[19:38] Keith: What relief.
[19:39] Mike: But it sounds people are saying he got that Uncle Tony got a girlfriend which is how man can you imagine being that girl if he if she ever finds out how like he's like oh so how many women have you been with this year to two two hundred and thirty it's like oh that's a lot. Um.
[19:46] Keith: I know right? Yeah, it'd be like being pull pot's girlfriend or something and not knowing what his history was.
[19:58] Mike: But apparently what I wanted to say is apparently um, it's pretty common for sex workers to use prep. Um, regardless maybe of their condom usage status like it's It's actually like a pretty widespread thing I don't know I'm sure it's not I'm sure.
[20:06] Keith: Are there are there any side effects like you know, does it make you break out or change your appetite or anything like that.
[20:18] Mike: Ah I was going to say it's not good for you. That's not the right thing to say but I'm sure it makes some difference in your health in a way that you would want to consider.
[20:22] Keith: Seems Yeah, yeah, you so you can't just take it prophylactically and not worry about. Yeah yeah, yeah, okay.
[20:31] Mike: You're basically asking should it be like put in the water like fluoride or whatever a I my assumption is no um but it's it's ah yeah I mean it makes sense I mean ah it probably is the it's a way to to dramatically reduce h I mean and so it's hard to hard to argue with it. By the way your mention of I mean your mention of basically getting ads that are sort of explicitly for gay men made me think of a Tiktok video I saw that I wanted to get your feedback on which was um, a woman was complaining because she said that um she was complaining about the male gaze.
[21:01] Keith: Ah, ah.
[21:08] Mike: You know you know what this term like in feminism male gaze means so for our listeners who may not know it's basically ah the idea that things are depicted whether in Cinema or magazines or whatever from the male gaze which means they're going to want kind of sex up the women in situations so she was complaining.
[21:09] Keith: Yes.
[21:27] Mike: She's a lesbian woman that in in magazines and video content aimed at men or women things are done from the male gaze. However, apparently and I don't consume any of this content shamefully I should In. Gay men's magazines things are not from the malegays and so the ads for example are totally different because they're not Malegays ads have you encountered this before? Yes, yes, it's just that It's just that It's not well. It's yeah, just it's just she said that it's apparently very strikingly different in that. Ah.
[21:49] Keith: Are there women in the ads period.
[22:02] Mike: Yeah, the the men might be set up sort of more suggestively sexually or it might just be kind of neutral and asexual.
[22:07] Keith: Yeah I I like this hypothesis I would love to see some manifestations of it some pictures or some ads to to verify her theory. It makes sense in concept.
[22:15] Mike: Um, okay, yeah, well I don't write I don't Ah I wasn't sure if that was true because I mean the I don't know I mean I don't know for a gay man if the female form is just totally not interesting. If. It's still viewed as aesthetic because because the male gaze thing could be more a function and this by the way goes along with your I think before we started recording, you were saying something about how women simultaneously do and don't want to be oggled by men or it's like it's like sometimes they do sometimes they don't and it's like very.
[22:45] Keith: Yeah, Schrodinger's oggle
[22:51] Mike: Unclear, Um, exactly. But the yeah I mean it sort of goes along with that this question of whether ah I would I would tend to think that it's not a male gaze issue. It's simply look if you're going to depict humans depicting women is often more compelling just from an aesthetic standpoint. Their bodies are smoother and more beautiful.
[23:12] Keith: Is it true that men aren't sexed up in various promotional or media things. So like I don't know I'm thinking about the Marvel movies. You know.
[23:25] Mike: I Don't watch those. Yes.
[23:29] Keith: Know but you know of them and you've seen commercials for them and you know you're aware of the mcu you marvel comic universe is cinematic, whatever it is ok I mean isn't captain America and Thor like aren't they I mean.
[23:39] Mike: Cinematic Universe There's comic universe. Okay sure.
[23:49] Keith: Those those actors are definitely sex symbols and are they not portrayed in a way in the movie. So as to be sort of candy for a female audience.
[23:58] Mike: I Think there's an element you. You basically mean that they would show their musculature. They might be wearing like shirtless or wearing Yeah, you're so heterosexual. You don't even notice it.
[24:03] Keith: Well I don't know what they would do because for me for me. Yeah, like a woman. Well a woman being sexed up is obvious to me right? like she's in a sundress or she's in a cat suit or.
[24:17] Mike: Can sounds good going up.
[24:20] Keith: You know she has her makeup in a certain way and or she's she's behaving in a certain way and for me that's sort of like easy to recognize. But if the claim is that because of the male gaze women are disproportionately sexed up and men aren't sexed up at all. Well then that sort of means that the men must not. Having some commensurate sexing up and I'm not sure if that's true but I don't know how to evaluate what it means to sex up a man I mean they don't walk around in G strings but is that what women won like I feel like that's like.
[24:49] Mike: Right? but.
[24:55] Keith: Male sexuality being so in a woman's face is not really desirable I mean it's so easy for women to get sex what they want is men behaving competently and seeming cool and sort of you know in charge of the situation and strong. And yeah I'm not sure I.
[25:12] Mike: Yes, you say fully cognizant of of how much our listeners love us mansplaining to women what they want which which you can they can fuck off because that's what we do, but um, the yeah I mean look I I was I mean yeah I think there are a number of elements of this critique that are suspect.
[25:13] Keith: Agree with her premise. Yeah I know.
[25:29] Mike: And I think yours is a really good one another one that came to mind when I saw the video um I by the way have reduced my Tiktok time to 5 minutes a day while planking so I do a 5 minute plank every day and that's my Tiktok time. So I'm pretty proud of that it is it is.
[25:39] Keith: When I was when I was doing planking I used Tiktok's perfect for planking. Yeah.
[25:47] Mike: Yes, and actually I think the arm motion when you need to swipe actually is good exercise because you have to sort of like lift an arm and move it to your phone and you can switch our alternate of course. Um, yeah, it's just 5 minutes straight and that's it. But the um, the ah it made me think of.
[25:52] Keith: Yep, do you do do you do 5 minutes in a row or do you do like a series. Okay, all right check.
[26:06] Mike: Um, Taylor Swift concerts listeners may not know that I'm a Taylor Swift aficionado ah swift I guess I'm a swiftie I listen to her music while running and so I'm extremely familiar with it. It's a very, it's very well produced and has a rhythm that's really good for running anyway I tried listening.
[26:13] Keith: Swifty.
[26:22] Keith: Defending Taylor's whip
[26:24] Mike: You actually told me to listen to podcasts at 1.5 x the speed which I tried that with Sam Harris and I learned that 1.5 x is correct. Maybe you're at 1.75 are you a little faster. Yeah, um, but still just the it was fine but I prefer music. Um, anyway, a lot of her.
[26:31] Keith: Yeah, 1.7 yeah
[26:43] Mike: Concerts now. Okay, importantly, if you just pull up any Youtube video of of 1 of her live performances pretty much all teenage girls early 20 s girls and then they're the teenagerenages fathers teenagers fathers in the audience. That's it's very female audience. Okay and yet that's what I but that's what I would guess and yet.
[26:51] Keith: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no line for the men's room.
[27:02] Mike: She performs almost everything wearing a leotard which first of all I mean that must be really strange to get up in front of that many people wearing just a completely sheer covering over your genitals like I just think that's like for a guy that's sort of like yeah, be it would be like performing in a speedo and when I do like ah.
[27:03] Keith: Yeah. Right? right. Right? at a business meeting where everyone else is clothed normally at the asymmetry.
[27:21] Mike: Ah, right? Yeah, you're the only one in Aiotardan I mean the the background backup answers right? The backup dancers some of whom are male are not dressed that way. They're ah sorry the women might be but the the men are not importantly and then you think well the audience is mostly look the the entire real audience is is basically female. Ah so.
[27:31] Keith: Huh. Okay.
[27:39] Mike: They must want to see her dress that way with sort of like a pretty skin bearing and so I don't so then again I think that's mostly aesthetic, right? It's like they they they idolize her look look how beautiful she is look how toned her body is they're not sexualizing her. I really don't think unless she's just performing for the cameras. But I don't I mean then she would just have 1 show in a leotard and the rest would be wearing something more comfortable and I actually have seen an interview where she complained about having you like perform in Madison Madison square of garden in a leotard which makes sense to me like it's kind of embarrassing frankly.
[27:57] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[28:10] Keith: Now it's ah it's an interesting thought like what would an entire female audience prefer a you know 25 year old starlet to dress like.
[28:20] Mike: Sure now maybe that's why Billie Eilish is now taking the crown because she's doesn't wear stuff like that. So she's not as thin and she wears sort of baggy clothes. Definitely a different ether. So maybe that's.
[28:28] Keith: Um I don't know what Billie Eilish looks like.
[28:37] Keith: Um, I mean yeah yeah yeah I think Billy Eilish is an exception to whatever rule we're imagining here. Yeah, okay.
[28:38] Mike: But but honestly like historically this leotard thing is pretty Common. So whatever. Yeah. A grade a grade. So I Yeah so I'm not totally the the male gaze thing I think is a little overblown but I still think the the gay it would be interesting to to I Guess go to a newstand and buy some gay magazines or just pick them up at the library or wherever you would get such a thing. Maybe you could get some because you live so close to the. Neighborhood there and just see what the ads look like like if they are in fact, just fundamentally different.
[29:08] Keith: I don't know ah where I mean I guess I could go to a corner store. Do they even sell porn magazines at corner stores anymore.
[29:16] Mike: It's not porn. It's not porn. It's just regular magazines targeted at Gay guys like so that she'd she kind of she had some names of magazines that level of detail I don't remember but it was yeah was the it would apparently there are.
[29:21] Keith: Um, what is there like gay us weekly in gay people magazine.
[29:31] Mike: There's a series of magazines that are targeted toward a gay male audience. Yeah yeah.
[29:33] Keith: Okay, all right I'll make a note to do this to all right gay magazines. Okay, let's move on. Yeah um, okay.
[29:42] Mike: You know and just put them around your apartment. Um.
[29:50] Keith: There was somebody on Reddit and I I lost the thread but it was a cam girl and she had I think she I can remember if she had huge breasts or if she had had implants and she was getting them removed but in and either case she wanted to have breast reduction surgery and she was concerned.
[29:52] Mike: Yeah, yeah.
[30:09] Keith: That this would affect her her cam girl audience.
[30:11] Mike: So for sure you don't think so like.
[30:16] Keith: I don't I don't know I wanted to talk about it I think it could depending on how much of her shtick was wrapped up in her boobs.
[30:28] Mike: I have to say I mean 1 thing and we've talked about this a little before we watched like twenty episodes ago. We watched a video from a can camera all that I thought was particularly good like the vast majority of cam girls are terrible at it in my opinion. They're just not and and I like I don't think that I'm some kind of savant I don't think that if i.
[30:39] Keith: I Know I agree.
[30:47] Mike: Were transsexual and had to do it or whatever as a guy I don't think I'd be good at it really? Okay, maybe I would.
[30:48] Keith: I do I think you would be I think you would be outstanding it. The problem is you would not be able to stop yourself from troling. But if if somebody said like if somebody said Mike I'm going to give you you know a million dollars if you can get ex viewers or whatever.
[31:05] Mike: But I'm I'm a guy.
[31:06] Keith: I Think that you could yeah I guess in this hypothetical situation. You're a woman and and you you have your are brave and you're able to the what I I mean it's impossible. But I think you would be good at it Anyway, continue.
[31:12] Mike: A woman. Okay, yeah, okay, yeah, the it's the I mean so so the but the main thrust that relates to a woman getting breast implants or and there was another topic that we don't have to read or whatever that I post I gave to you. Was about a woman complaining cam girl complaining because she yeah like does a lot of dilldoing as part of her cam show and she was sort of she was complaining because other women don't have to do as much dilldoing and like I've thought about this before I mean well. I mean after after I mean a lot of times these people do it for so four six hours a day and that's a long time to just to jam anything into any part of your body again and again and again I mean it would just become kind of raw so she was in. It's sort of the same thing. It's this question of how important are the specific physical attributes of what you're doing as a camgirl and i.
[31:55] Keith: Yep.
[32:03] Mike: While I Yeah so I initially said yes it would matter a breast reduction I think it would I think your I think your point and I think this is right is that overall ah the way she approaches the performance is way way more important and the problem that cam girl women have is that it doesn't come across as natural because it's not a very natural situation. It's very hard for them to seem relaxed and having fun and um, kind of include the audience in the right way kind of talk to people in the right way and make it seem like not weird that they're sitting there half naked or naked and all doing things and also.
[32:27] Keith: Um, yeah.
[32:42] Mike: Um I think it's really really hard to not appear transactional. So some large percentage of camgirls. It's just too obvious that they want those 50 tokens for them to take their top off and then they'll put the top back on and do it again now. Obviously they want to get those tokens but it's just like there's got to be other. You got to research it and come up with a shtick.
[32:52] Keith: Yeah, okay.
[32:59] Keith: Have you have you still not spent any time watching amaranth on Twitch you should because yeah, she's she's I mean she's by far the most successful cam girl in the world right? She makes.
[33:01] Mike: Yeah.
[33:04] Mike: I Still haven't I forgot I was supposed to.
[33:14] Mike: I'll take a note.
[33:18] Keith: Millions of dollars a month at times I don't know if she still does and you know yeah, but she also has't only fans, but her main marketing channel is Twitch and this you know she has streams that have like thousands and thousands I don't know what the maybe it's tens of thousands of of people watching.
[33:20] Mike: Um, wow she's on Twitch so it's not even x rated. Okay.
[33:35] Mike: Um, okay yeah.
[33:38] Keith: And she can't be naked. Um, but she does frequently run into their twitches sensor stuff and she did this. She I can't Read. There's something with like she was doing these hot tub streams and then. They decided that that wasn't allowed so then she got like a kitty pool and put it in or a apartment I can't remember she frequently runs into their sensor stuff. But the main thing that she's talented at is.
[33:56] Mike: Kind of.
[34:06] Mike: But smart smart is trying to to to trying to toe the line like that is really smart like trying to find something that just barely goes over the line because then it's kind of titillating for the audience and fun and if she gets kicked off all the better. You know it's like oh I got kicked off. Yeah.
[34:14] Keith: Right? right? right? Yeah yeah I mean she's she's savvy and but yeah, she's conversational in a way where it just lets people imagine it lets their imagination.
[34:33] Mike: What it would be like to date her. Yeah.
[34:34] Keith: Sort of fill in the gaps and I think it's better than right? It's better than what you see on Chatterbait which is just these sad sad desperate women trying to you know claw out these tokens that are worth like what is it. They're worth like a fifth of a cent or something.
[34:43] Mike: Um, yeah.
[34:53] Mike: No, no, it's it's it's it's my understanding is and I've never bought a token I have to say but is that you pay ¢10 but the site takes half of it. So each token is worth ¢5 but you yeah so ah, but you will sometimes see maybe someone get ah sure you will sometimes see somebody get.
[34:53] Keith: And.
[35:02] Keith: Ah, okay, a fifth of a dollar. Okay, no it 5% of a dollar.
[35:10] Mike: Right? You'll see somebody get ah maybe 500 tokens at a time so that's like $25 that can happen. But I mean obviously that's not going to get them anywhere close to um, a million dollars a month or whatever you said that requires some subscription revenue to do that which I'm more power to or there are some people on.
[35:20] Keith: Right.
[35:30] Mike: Chatterbate who do a good job of this. But it's shockingly few which yeah, you would just think I would think that people would have an incentive to study how to do this well and do a good job of it but they simply don't.
[35:43] Keith: yeah yeah I mean Mike you've you've worked with sales organizations and sales or sales people are generally compensated by commission and it's always fascinating to me. Well, it's not.
[35:51] Mike: Right.
[35:57] Keith: That interesting to me anymore. But it used to when I was in my twenty s and I saw these salespeople who were like lazy and not trying to be better at what they did I always found that sort of confusing I would try to figure out how to gamify getting people to buy the product that I'm selling as much as I could because it directly affects my comp.
[36:10] Mike: Right? So right? so.
[36:16] Keith: Um, and so I find that sort of behavior confusing. But yeah, it's the same and with salespeople as it is on chatter. But.
[36:23] Mike: Um, it is strange because you'll have yeah, you'll have a yeah, you'll have a woman who's just as attractive or maybe more attractive than ah someone who's very is a much much higher earner and you'll say well what is it and it's simply some kind of personality thing and and probably I hate to say it.
[36:31] Keith: A high order.
[36:42] Mike: But ah, life really is an Iq test and probably the truth is that the ones that get the higher earning. They're just smarter and they sit down and study the other people and they figure out. Maybe they talk to you know, um, get groups of people and talk to them and figure out what works I could yeah I could I could think of a lot of avenues you could use to improve your game there and they just don't.
[36:54] Keith: Um, yeah.
[37:00] Keith: Um, yeah I mean it's good that it's a meritocracy and not purely based on the way you look.
[37:00] Mike: Um, yeah.
[37:06] Mike: Well, it irritates me because for the same reason I've had a number of people ask me if I felt like porn was getting worse I think that there's an element of that. Ah, 1 thing that happened of course is there was the porn acalypse where pornhub and other sites. Got rid of any porn that they couldn't figure out the provenance of yes and then Reddit did like sort of a porn coppo lips where they closed down every subreddit that didn't have a moderator and people complain about this one because it's happened it happened fairly recently? um.
[37:25] Keith: Yep Amateur porn. Yep.
[37:37] Keith: Um, yeah.
[37:43] Mike: But the other thing that's gone on is only fans and so the higher quality performers have this strong incentive to put maybe a 2 minute long clip on a free site and then divert people to a paid site and yeah, it's smart and then so you wind up with stuff. That's just frankly harder to get the nut out of. On the free sites. Okay.
[38:03] Keith: Um, yeah I Wonder if microtransacts could ah disrupt it would. It would definitely disrupt that space I'm not sure how.
[38:12] Mike: It would the I think the problem is that the only fans people are able to charge enough that um yeah, you would need more of a macro transaction right? I mean in in some ways. That's what only fans is I mean if you had 10 performers you liked and each one cost ten dollars a month that might be worth it to you.
[38:26] Keith: Um, do you have an only fans account.
[38:28] Mike: I I think I have a dormant one that I set up just to see what was there which is nothing. Yeah.
[38:33] Keith: I I have one you can you can um some people have free only fans I think you still need an account. So maybe that's why you said but I've paid I've paid for some people's only fans. But yeah you you have to pay for a month and it's wild the divergence in cost. Ah.
[38:40] Mike: You have? yeah.
[38:50] Keith: The the person the content creator can set up what the monthly cost is and I've seen it as low as like two dollars and as high as like 25 and when it's that much I can't I can't pay that much.
[38:54] Mike: Okay.
[39:03] Mike: But I think our listeners would like to know how many you've paid for how much you've paid and what what they did that got you there.
[39:13] Keith: Normally it's just somebody who is so attractive that I want to see more of their content and my pattern is always I pay for one month I Immediately unsubscribe So I unsubscribe before I masturbate because I don't want I don't want to I don't want to forget and be here.
[39:21] Mike: Um, okay, okay.
[39:29] Mike: So wait. So you only get one nut out of any of these subscriptions. So one nut subscription sounds like it because if yeah, okay.
[39:31] Keith: Ah.
[39:37] Keith: I Think that's about right? Yeah, when you would sorry sorry when you unsubscribe you still get the rest of the month but I don't really I don't really go back to the same person.
[39:45] Mike: Oh got it. That's it Yeah and what's the what's your typical amount you're willing to pay to get that higher quality nut. Okay, and.
[39:55] Keith: If it's more than like five bucks I I blush I think I bet I've paid 10 a couple times if if I was particularly needy.
[40:06] Mike: I Assume they make the transaction flow really easy. So you don't feel like you're got it and um, then this is the real question. Is it worth it.
[40:08] Keith: Yes, yeah, they store your credit card and you just press go it's it's it's faster than Amazon.
[40:20] Keith: Um I have been burned a couple times where so there's always plenty of content in there but sometimes the content is 2 pg or or 2 sometimes it's like not.
[40:25] Mike: Um, like okay.
[40:36] Keith: Kind of porn that I'm looking for um, but generally a good a good only fans user will show a couple teases so you can know what to expect because they don't want the situation where people sign up and get like upset. That's not good for their business.
[40:36] Mike: Okay, but yeah.
[40:50] Mike: How many So how many different clips are there typically in one of these accounts when you go in. Okay, okay.
[40:55] Keith: It varies and you can see how many picture posts and how many video posts they have before you subscribe so some people just have like you know 20 pictures. It's like yeah forget that.
[41:05] Mike: Right? And there hasn't been somebody that where where they posted with a frequency or a compellingness where you thought okay I'll I'll continue to be this person's fan.
[41:12] Keith: I I just don't well for stars I don't have only fans notifications on my phone or computer like you matching just going about your day and they're like you know Jane has posted a new video.
[41:26] Mike: So.
[41:28] Keith: Yeah, like you get a little notification on your smart watch so ridiculous.
[41:32] Mike: Yeah, you're you're out for a run and you're like wait I got to hide I got to get behind this bush and be off. It's good. It's is I mean so that's a real thing. You can get a notification on your phone that tells you I guess okay that makes sense I mean you can get an you can get an Instagram 1 or whatever. Okay.
[41:38] Keith: Um, right? Yeah, it's ridiculous.
[41:45] Keith: I presume I presume I I I have not set up only fans on my phone I never masturbate with my phone I've come to learn that people do but I do not I always use my computer I have a thirty nine Inch widespread monitor
[41:57] Mike: Yeah, yeah, why? why is that it's just too. Yeah, right? And the sound quality isn't very good on the phone either unless you have headphones and then that gets a little high tech. Um, okay so you're so.
[42:04] Keith: Right? right.
[42:12] Mike: So you wouldn't have any way to know. So so your relationship as it were with these women is just kind of from sunrise to sunset if your dick was the sun.
[42:20] Keith: Yeah, where sunrise and sunset are 7 minutes apart
[42:24] Mike: So Wow I Wonder how common that is probably I I actually think I've read that the Churn rate on only fans is quite high. So I think your yeah.
[42:33] Keith: Um, well that's yeah I mean that was sort of the thing that I was wondering here am I unusual. Do people have subscribers that last for a year and do do they find that the frequency of new content. Affects their attrition rate.
[42:51] Mike: Right? The thing I find interesting there is why? ah somehow that model basically did not survive for digital music. Ah people moved over to the Spotify Apple music. Whatever model.
[43:02] Keith: Um, yeah.
[43:07] Mike: And so I could imagine the same thing happening here but it has not yet. Ah and it could be expensive. It could be you know a hundred dollars a month or something but where you basically just have full access and then the money gets diverted based on what you click. So maybe that's what's coming next.
[43:10] Keith: Um, right.
[43:16] Keith: Right? I I've wondered the same. Yeah, there would be some sort of global subscription and you get access to all porn and then the the the content creators get paid for by the amount of traffic they generate.
[43:33] Mike: It'd be very natural thing for say Pornhub to set up to have some connection and then you just they just get ah a harem as it were of people and put it together does it matter to you that these women are currently posting or that they are the age. They.
[43:35] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[43:41] Keith: Yeah, yeah.
[43:51] Mike: Are in the videos right now. In other words, if this content were from ten years ago would you care if it was a dormant account.
[43:53] Keith: Yeah.
[44:01] Keith: I've thought about this in the past if I come across like a new porn star I like and I find out she's fifteen years older than the content I'm watching am I able to set that aside.
[44:12] Mike: Ah.
[44:16] Keith: For the sake of my fantasy I think knowing that they're much older and they don't look like that anymore does actually negatively impact.
[44:21] Mike: Interesting. Yeah I had an experience within the last month where I was was enjoying a video or a set of videos by somebody and then I was I clicked on some other reddit post about them and learned that they were dead. It did not affect my enjoyment I was fine.
[44:40] Keith: Um, ah I think that.
[44:41] Mike: To see you know yeah to be fair, they died at around the age of they were in the videos. So so they weren't They weren't older. They were just dead.
[44:50] Keith: Um, yeah, right? I'm so hyperactive with my porn viewing I don't fixate on single people for very long and so yeah I don't like develop crushes on single porn stars like I think some folks.
[44:58] Mike: Um, yeah.
[45:05] Mike: Sure sure Well, that's the I mean that's the real meat sweetmeat of only fans are I guess this amainth person.
[45:07] Keith: Must.
[45:11] Keith: Um, yeah yeah I guess yeah anyway all right? Let me we should get to some of these topics that I promised in our intro so all right? Ah, this woman says quote it's not in. Ah, narrator it was in fact in my boyfriend is not the biggest this one time we switched from missionary to doggie style and he started pounding I didn't really feel anything. So I said wait it's not in as soon as the sentence left my mouth I realized he was actually in me already so half a second later I said oh it is it and acted like nothing happened.
[45:29] Mike: Yeah.
[45:45] Mike: And.
[45:48] Keith: First minute after that was kind of awkward for me to be honest, do you think I heard a self-esteem I'm sad about it to be fair I was really wet. Could this be a reason that I didn't really feel any friction. Okay, we're going to get back to this but I want to read this other topic because it provides a juxtaposition. Okay, my 19 ah sorry.
[45:59] Mike: Yeah, yeah.
[46:07] Keith: This is a nineteen year old female talking about her 24 year old boyfriend. My boyfriend accused me of lying about my body count because he said my pussy was not as tight as his exes I've been dating my boyfriend for about two months and this kind of conversation recently came up when he started asking a lot of questions about my sexual past.
[46:17] Mike: Her.
[46:25] Keith: Only dated 1 guy before him to whom I lost my v card and I know my boyfriend has had a much more extensive past after this conversation he started being weird and then accused me of lying and we argued back and forth until he exploded and said well your pussy is not as tight as my ex's. Obviously really hurt me and I haven't talked to him in a few days but I'm looking for advice on what to do and if there's anything I can do to make my vagina tighter since I love him and want our sex life to be good. So this is like this is like the neutron bomb of like the worst thing you could say to your partner especially in their twenty s so for a man. Telling him that his penis is so small you can't even feel it when it's inside of you for a woman. It's telling her that her vagina is too loose. These are neutron bombs because there there's nothing they can do about it like a woman can't really make her vagina tighter. The good news ladies is that there isn't that much variance in vagina tightness and for a man he cannot make his.
[47:00] Mike: The.
[47:18] Keith: Penis Larger despite what all the ads on the internet may try to persuade you of ah.
[47:24] Mike: Right? Well in there. There's also the irony with the it's There's an irony that's actually a positive for the woman's story but not so much for the guy's story which is ah probably what the boyfriend of the woman who. Boyfriend who said that she's loose Probably what's really going on is she just more aroused ah therefore lubricating more and so his ex was probably lubricating less and less aroused by him. So Actually it's the story. She told really makes me think actually she's just more into him than his ex was for the guy who's got a small penis I mean he's.
[47:51] Keith: Oh boy. Yeah.
[48:02] Mike: He's got a small penis. There's not a much help I can provide there. Yeah I'm assuming it's narrow also like she didn't say length or or Width but I'm going to go with it's going to be a little on the narrower side because of the lack of friction.
[48:03] Keith: Yeah, there's nothing you can do? Yeah ah yeah I I.
[48:17] Keith: Um, yeah I think there's I mean Gosh we've been through this so many times. But yeah, there's some length that they can feel because it hits their cervix and short of that I think it doesn't matter and then the Girth matters for I think that like sort of feeling of fullness.
[48:23] Mike: Yes, so.
[48:32] Mike: Right? It's going to affect the first couple inches which is where the clitoris surrounds the birth canal so to speak. But yeah I mean they I mean setting aside well I saw I saw some post where um.
[48:37] Keith: Right.
[48:48] Mike: Guy was what what was it I think it was ah one of these sex workers who got a text from a guy that said what he was going to do was put his penis in her and then jam his fist down on her stomach until he could feel himself thrusting and she was very upset about that that didn't she didn't find that respectful. But I mean you could get some benefit out of the length if you. You were doing that kind of activity. Yeah.
[49:09] Keith: Sure'm sure yeah I mean it's interesting over the last couple weeks we've had a few topics where the man has accused his partner of being too loose I think men don't understand that.
[49:21] Mike: Yeah, yeah.
[49:25] Keith: That's not the own the man thinks it is.
[49:26] Mike: Right? Well right? that right I mean it's it's like on 6 different levels I mean it could also be that he's too small. It's it's really really, really unlikely that she actually has some problem.
[49:32] Keith: Right. Right? Yeah, okay I wanted to do this topic about shared nudes. We haven't talked about this for a while I just found out my ex shared nude photos of me with my colleagues. Honestly, want the ground to swallow me whole today I feel so violated and humiliated ah before I read this. Let me just say something first which is I don't understand why women send nudes of themselves even to partners. Um. I have received nudes from I don't know if I would give a number here probably at least 20 women and it's they're given away so cavalierly so I am absolutely treworthy with them like I mean I've known you for a long time I don't think I've ever shared with you. Ah.
[50:20] Mike: Um, yeah.
[50:31] Mike: Not to my actually not to my recollection now it sort of irritates me I was thinking about that but go on Oh sure. Sure yeah.
[50:31] Keith: Ever shared with you any nudes of my ex's right? Yeah, um, we know people who have shared newsdes of their exes I think I think most guy friends do share these things but it it it just so happens that I am a vault and I can be trusted on this. But. The cavalier nes with which some of these women shared things with me does they didn't know that I was that safe like we weren't non 0 right? I I mean.
[50:55] Mike: Yeah, what a percentage of the time is their face visible. Not okay and is it ever. Is it ever a rear view with them bent over.
[51:08] Keith: Ah, yes, but more rarely because you need to set up a mirror and stuff. So anyway, yes, it's rare though. It's rare.
[51:10] Mike: Um, interesting. Okay, okay, so so you would say you've been sent a picture of a woman's butthole. Yeah concretely. Okay, yeah, sure like yeah.
[51:22] Keith: Most people are very inscure about their butthole I did I like I could count it on one hand. So anyway as I'm reading this and this person sort of makes it clear what the downside of sending someone a photo is like I wanted I want the listener and you to think about why are they sending like what is the upside that. Makes them ignore this downside I recently got back with my ex after being apart since April it was mutual but wasn't on good terms and we cut each other out completely following the breakup. There were rumors. He had shared very deep secrets shames with my colleagues on a work night out. We used to work together so we have mutual colleagues I approached him about this and he denied it completely. Okay. That's probably smart for him to lie about it. Fast forward to now he stayed over. So yes, yeah, that's called revenge porn right? right? Fast forward to now he stayed over Saturday night after we got speaking again and decided to give it another go decided to give it another go I don't know it? yeah.
[52:01] Mike: Right? Well I think it could be illegal because of revenge born. Yeah right.
[52:16] Mike: Their relationship. Yeah.
[52:20] Keith: I appreciate I shouldn't have done this and never have before but I went on his phone to search their lads group chat as curiosity got the better of me I would be lying if I said I hadn't thought about doing that every single day for the past six months and she suspected this for a long time. Anyway I wish I didn't I searched my name in their chat and not only did I find he had shared my darkest secrets shames antics in bed personal issues and much more he had sent them nude photos of me that he took There's a photo of me tied up. Sorry if that's tmi which is even more humiliating their reactions to it have made me feel worthless and like a sex object.
[52:47] Mike: Here.
[52:56] Keith: You sexualized yourself these are colleagues I got on really well with and they all completely objectified me. There were a lot of mentions about their working night out. So who knows what else he has shared on top of that my colleagues never told me so I feel even more isolated and alone right now I feel so sick. Yesterday morning I confronted my ax and he burst into tears telling me he felt so awful for it just buried it hoping I wouldn't find out That's probably the best way he could have reacted just complete contrition.
[53:24] Mike: Yeah, that might be smart I mean it may not matter but sure I mean I'm yeah go ahead? yeah.
[53:27] Keith: Right can somebody please I'm almost done can somebody please tell me I will bounce back from this I Keep having panic attacks and can't and can't stop crying So I'll let you speak in one second I Just want to say I don't look I don't want to victim blame too much here, but this was.
[53:36] Mike: So okay.
[53:46] Keith: Things that are obvious in prospect are really hard for me to be sympathetic about like she's recognizing in retrospect that she made a huge mistake but she should have known this in prospect and so it's really hard for me like why do women share photos.
[54:04] Mike: Well some of the photos were taken by him but you could say why did she presumably she consented to no no, she said that some of them were taken by the guy she ah she also explicitly. And yeah I mean the fact that she was tied up makes it even more obvious.
[54:05] Keith: Yeah, you're you're saying that you're saying that because she says one of them is of her tied up. Oh sorry, my reading comprehension was is not good enough apparently but she could tell him not to take photos of her naked like.
[54:21] Mike: Well sometimes when you're reading out loud. It's hard to pay attention which is true. That's right, That's right and that would change that would change the level of what happened here I I think there are kind of so a couple things one is that I just wanted to note that she kind of obviously had sex with him just to get his phone which think.
[54:39] Keith: Um, I It's sort of baller. Actually yeah I mean.
[54:39] Mike: And funny. Well I mean it's it. Ah yeah I mean this this it's having sex with ulterior motives like that is kind of an interesting situation because I think that in a lot of cases women would like to. Claim that they would never do such a thing men of course men of course I think have all kinds of terrible motivations around Sex. So There's like not this isn't a debatable thing I'm just basically saying that I think women can do the same thing but I think this gets back to that like male gaze topic where the ah.
[54:58] Keith: Right.
[55:16] Keith: How do I see.
[55:17] Mike: The truth is that if a woman. Okay, if you have say an office with 20 peers like you like a sales organization like you were describing before and 4 of them are attractive women and 16 of them are men some group of those 16 men are going to have conversations like this about.
[55:25] Keith: Um, yep.
[55:34] Keith: Yes, yeah, yeah.
[55:37] Mike: 1 or more of the women and now there are some conversations that women are likely to have about the men too. But they're going to be more socially acceptable I think generally they're not going to be kind of what what did Donald Trump call locker room locker room humor right? exactly.
[55:48] Keith: Yeah, it's not going to be the Trump grip right? right.
[55:55] Mike: Ah, so this stuff isn't that surprising I don't actually know. Um if I were female I don't know how I would um square this with wanting to operate in kind of the professional slash. You know, just public world. But it's difficult I mean if you if you lived five hundred years ago maybe ah you would just be married to some guy and if people said things like that about you he would kick their ass or kill them or something. Um, it's not that simple. It was obviously prostitution all all the like five hundred years ago but the point is that now because women are so.
[56:26] Keith: Um, yeah.
[56:32] Mike: Completely in the workforce. It's just really difficult to know how you emotionally and psychologically guard yourself against this but the reality is I don't know if it would make her feel better. But the reality is that this this kind of conversation goes on about all attractive women And. Ah, the photos I mean look you can make a deep fake. It's not okay, fine. So They know you were actually tied up. Okay I mean but a lot of women do that. So it just means they have a photo that's actually real as opposed to a deep fake about it. So.
[57:02] Keith: Um, yeah yeah I mean you remember somebody tried to blackmail Jeff Bezos right they like got his new photos and he was like go ahead and share them get. He didn't he didn't care he owned it I mean there's certainly photos that could probably.
[57:12] Mike: Yeah, right.
[57:20] Keith: Be more embarrassing than others. But ah.
[57:23] Mike: Um, I mean you would be you be pretty upset if ah, a photo if an ex posted a photo of her pegging you on the internet right? like.
[57:32] Keith: I Don't bring cameras into the bedroom I don't I can't comprehend people allowing it. It's the downside risk is so high not just from your ah person you know, potentially being a future X and the risk.
[57:34] Mike: Yeah, okay, what if but what if you.
[57:49] Keith: Involved in the in the unease knowing that they have such a thing but they could get hacked their phone could get stolen like who knows it's just.
[57:50] Mike: Right? Okay, so but let's say this is this will be because of the the roles and genders. This won't work that well but let's say that you were in a scenario where you were blindfolded tied up and then pegged and she took photos of you or videos unbeknownst to you.
[58:07] Keith: Yeah, right? Well first off I One of the reasons one of the reasons why I'm not into submissive play like that is because I don't like that lack of control like I'm sort of a control freak. But okay, let's say.
[58:10] Mike: But what would what would your reaction be to that because this is a little like that. What.
[58:20] Mike: Okay, okay.
[58:25] Keith: I find out that without my consent. They my partner she took photos of me. But yeah, we demand that she delete them I would I would not be pleased you I mean.
[58:29] Mike: Are right you But if they've been shared already. Okay, so the yes of the yeah.
[58:43] Keith: This would never happen to me so it's hard to like imagine. But if it did yeah it would just be a grounds for immediate Breakup and my partner would know that before they did it so there there she wouldn't do it.
[58:54] Mike: I see so your criticism and I think this is reasonable is that ah is that she yeah that she made the mistake of ah. Allowing this to happen. But of course she did it because you know photos and videos of women are more titillating more sought after and she was trying to get the guy to like her more. Um, So what she's supposed to do. She has this thing that has value and she's trying to spread it around and use it.
[59:12] Keith: Um, yeah.
[59:17] Keith: Yeah, but I would argue I would argue that if you need to leverage your sexual currency to keep your partner then you should find a new partner now maybe some women can't find partners that.
[59:31] Mike: Sure I well or you could or you could like get better at giving head for example, as opposed to as opposed to being willing to to I think I agree with you here that that basically it's.
[59:34] Keith: Care about them for reasons other than their sexual currency but they should least aspire to that. Whatever it might be.
[59:49] Mike: I agree with you? Well, Okay, if you're a professional plenty of women or professionals then they can make videos I don't want to I don't to suggest that there should be no more porn because I would what a sad gray world that would be for me. But I think I agree with you that if the advice to women should be look if you don't want to be if if you don't want to be a porn star. Don't do this.
[59:58] Keith: Um, yeah, yeah.
[01:00:09] Mike: Don't take videos or photos don't send them don't yeah and just tell the guy like I don't do it because I don't want to wind up like that and which is a completely reasonable and actually pretty intelligent thing to say and if the guy says hey that's not cool I'm not okay with that then probably break up with him because it means there's something wrong with him.
[01:00:15] Keith: Um, right.
[01:00:23] Keith: Is there some sort of there isn't really a technological solution to this? Yeah, but so you remember what snapchat did if you took a screenshot it would notify the person that you took a screenshot.
[01:00:26] Mike: Because he should see the logic of that. No snapchat I mean that's why snapchat a big part of the recent snapchat became popular. Sure which means importantly, that means that it works really great unless someone has two cameras or a phone in a camera or two phones. Of course.
[01:00:49] Keith: Right? You can just take a picture of the screen. Ah, there were also ways that you could you could disable. Ah the internet on your phone take the screenshot.
[01:01:02] Mike: Ah, so so.
[01:01:04] Keith: And then snapchat would store it so the next time that it had internet access. It would do it but then you could uninstall the app and then you also had to delete and then snapchat like did some things were left like a temporary file on on the thing so that even if you ever reinstalled it. It would find that temporary file and then notify them so you had to like uninstall the app and then like clean the temp file.
[01:01:08] Mike: So there you go.
[01:01:23] Keith: To make sure that it never notified them. But yeah.
[01:01:26] Mike: That's embarrassingly low rent and when you could just solve it by having like a $60 camera that you just place at a fixed distance above the screen and just take the shot but okay.
[01:01:32] Keith: Yeah, well in people people made screenshot apps that didn't use the standard you know, whatever and then it you know, but they worked on Android but not Apple whenever all right? We got to wrap up so that's a wrap.
[01:01:38] Mike: There You go sure.
[01:01:44] Mike: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:01:47] Keith: On episode 94 of your mileage may vary. We are always interested in feedback. Good bad or ugly. In fact, we prefer critical feedback because it's the most actionable as discussed we will pay $20 this week for any feedback we receive you can reach us. At Ymmvpod on Twitter or at y mmvpod at gmail.com you can also ask us questions. There. Let us know if you want us to use them on the air or not thanks for giving us a listen and we hope to catch you next week on your mileage may vary.